The Criminalization of Blackness

Blue
November 13 2007, 2:13PM

Regarding the cartoon character ... When I look at that photo what I see is basically the same thing most decent establishments convey - don't come in here looking like a hoodrat bum. I've heard black club doormen aggressively tell people such; they may as well have had that picture hanging up because it would have been kinder. And truth be told, I don't even think the little character is supposed to be black - he looks just like the goofy white kids i see dressed like that in DC and Maryland. Personally I'm not offended by it because I don't frequent places with people dressed like that because they attract a certain element (the Bachelor's Mill, the Fireplace or Delta in DC anyone?). A club, whether black or white, is the image it puts out, and if they want people to frequent their establishment who look presentable and have good sense, more power to them.

Equalnox
November 13 2007, 2:18PM

What would you do if you were a police officer and the dispatcher just informed you that there's a kid with a gun menacing the neighborhood? This is the scenario being broadcasted by CNN news in regard to this New York incident?

Where does a gay black man or a gay black woman go to escape the discrimination from the white community and the discrimination from the heterosexual black community?

Where does the black community who have more in common with white Americans than with black Africans go to feel whole?

nuttens
November 13 2007, 2:31PM

I think I am getting tired of the excuses. Yes there is racism , yes we are targetted , yes they shouldnt do it etc but why break the rules, why dress inappropriately. Since when are purple ahir extensions appropriate for high school? And how about sagging pants and dressing like a hoodlum for school. Why give MORE of a reason to target us? There is a great video by Chris Rock where he points out that if you are DWB why do you have weed in the car, why disrespect the police??? The problem we are facing is that people are using the truth that rcaism exists to excuse antisocial, illegal and just plain bad behaviour! On the other hand why do we go to places and shop where they dont want us...? And why do we treat us other like we do...?

'dre
November 13 2007, 2:47PM

Preach on it, preach on it! If you are black, they all see us as criminals, drug dealers even if you are a millionaire stockbroker. You can't get a break in this lousy country if you are black, even in 2007 and, don't even dare be a black gay male, you have few places that will treat you right.

As for the cartoon, while offensive, I don't see it as racist, more insensitive than anything else as in L. A. most of the guys who dress like that and end up in West Hollywood are Hispanics, which is odd, since they are the flavor du jour there. But, over at the Abby they did do some pretty nasty things to keep blacks out, after saying they were getting the swarm action by kids stealing food, or something silly like that. But, then again, West Hollywood just like the bars and clubs in San Diego and San Francisco are not too happy to have more than a couple of black faces in their spot.

loi wade
November 13 2007, 3:15PM

I read Jasmyne's story and I know it all too well. I could NEVER treat one of my own that way. These bitches KILL ME! They ain't but one step above 'welcome to Macdonalds, may I help you'. These same broads are probably giving discounts to sha nay nay , shaquita , and everybody else in the hood. You would never see Asians, Hispanics, Jews or any other group treating each other that way. As far as the gay bar goes, why are you so surprised? No one did a damn thing about badlands in San Francisco. I live in Sacramento, Ca. and I was the only black dike to boycott Shirley Q. Liquor when her fat ass was here. One white man named Terry owns every Gay bar here. My ex-girlfriend Valerie used to own the only black owned bar in town but she eventually had to sell. Why? Because black gays and lesbians continued to support a white man who repeatedly discriminated against them.

Mark Norris
November 13 2007, 3:28PM

It seems to me, and I have said it before, that the more and more we get into the future the more and more I "freedom" in a land that is supposed to be free, is taken away. In this day and age we can't say what we feel, out of fear of offending someone. What happened to the "sticks and stones" saying. We can't dress the way we like. Look at these ridiculous laws coming into affect about sagging pants. I say, so what!!! Let these kids express themselves the way they wish as long as they are ready for the consequences (jobs etc.). They will grow up and just like us, they will mature. It feels like we are more and more becoming like the countries we are trying to change..........a dictatorship.

Derrick from Philly
November 13 2007, 3:28PM

How do you stop the abuse of black children? If your parents & family can't protect you from low self esteem then they've committed one of the worst forms of child abuse.

When negative attitudes and images of black Americans are present everywhere and all the time, but black adults have forgotten how to combat that negativity--how in the hell can black children develop any self-esteem. How can you stop the cycle of black self-hate--the kind of hate that causes you hurt other black folk and feel some psychotic sense of satisfaction.

We've got to find a way to instill in black children the knowledge that they are not stupid, they are not ugly, they are not bad, and that they are not by their very existence, a problem.

It seems that it was easier during the worst periods of blatant institutional racism to prevent the destruction of black children's self-esteem.

Somebody's got to teach you that you're worth something on this planet.

J
November 13 2007, 4:14PM

Like I said before Cali sucks.

Anyway, the cartoon might be racist, but it's funny and I won't cry for those sacks. The fact that even black bars/clubs in "bad" areas don't want these idiots should make it clear this has nothing to do with race. It has to do with people getting shot, stabbed, knocked over, kicked, or catching a cloud of weed.

Gordon
November 13 2007, 4:37PM

J...LOL....You a mess! But you are sho nuff right. Black folk quit crying, white folk aint doing nothing but giving us enough rope to hang ourselves. White people aren't as keen on racism as we think that they are. Some of us will never get to a level in life where we can really feel its pinch. Simply because whitey is sitting back sipping mint tea, watching us kill our own selves, mentally, emotionally, and physically...

And until we can find some solidarity amongst ourselves(NEVER), complaining about it only serves as a mechanism to blow hot air, and get off some steam. Will it change? NOPE!

Brucito
November 13 2007, 7:42PM

I live in Harlem and I wonder everyday when I am walking down 125th why does every billboard advertising sneakers, jewelry, cars or a new CD have to have the face of a VERY ANGRY LOOKING YOUNG BLACK MALE. The expressions on their faces say very loudly "you faggot ass M/F are you ready to die." If I walked into a bar and saw things or people that made me uncomfortable I would turn around and leave. West Hollywood is predominantly white and their white owned bars cater to a mostly white crowd. There are white, black and latino hustlers galore out there on Santa Monica blvd. Never kiss someones ass to take your money, especially when they obviously don't like the way you dress. If you just have to dress like a sterotyped rap video extra actor then go to a bar that caters to that crowd.

Bingo
November 13 2007, 8:25PM

I'm not sure who wins the award for Most Myopic/Biggest Complainer - Boykin or Cannick. Is this the best that you two can come up with to post on your blogs? It's a shame that the two of you with so much potential, are spiraling downward with trash topics like this.

If the two of you are voices for the community, what exactly are you doing to improve things, other than continually drawing on lame excuses so you can point fingers and blame?

That poster shows me a club owner that wants to provide a venue for hip-hop, but also wants to avoid the usual fights and violence that accompany the dumbasses that don't have the sense to respect themselves. It's called public safety and protection of property.

Since when would hoodlums ever be welcome in West Hollywood? Dress like that and it's an easy assumption to make - might as well paint a bullseye on your forehead.

(Hear that? It's the sound of Keith Boykin falling into obscurity as he becomes more out of touch with each passing day.)

cmoney
November 13 2007, 8:59PM

Of course Blacks are targeted and regarded as criminals in this racist society, buut it doesn't help that some Black people go out of their way to look like criminals. I recently worked on a project with some lawyers wear the dress was casual. A young Black lawyer on the team soon started coming to work with his pants sagging! Everyone stared and looked at him disapprovingly and he didn't seem to care. Other Black co-workers were embarrased about the image he brought to the office. I eventually pulled him up one brother to another and suggested that his attire was inappropriate, even in a casual setting. He copped and attitude with me! I can't understand why any adult, much less a degreed professional, would even want to look like an ignorant thug in the workplace. That is not a Black White thing, that is a matter of profesionalism and respect for the office. Chances are, he won't be around for long.

jazzi
November 13 2007, 9:25PM

Here is a link to that story Keith was talking about. Read it & decide for yourselves:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5758313

MidwestGuy
November 13 2007, 9:25PM

Some of you are the reasons that something is very wrong in America. Why is it that whenever Keith talks about some sort of disparity re: straight black men, most of you are so quick to dismiss it. You don't even want to hear it. You aren't even interested in unfair treatment of black men.

Wearing sagging pants is not a crime, it's a fashion statement. The overwhelming majority of those who dress that way are not involved in criminal activity. I don't think any of your jobs are shortstaffed. Apparently they aren't working at your poe. So, why be concerned about their professional progress?

I often wonder do many black gay men harbor a lot of resentment and anger towards straight black men for some of paternal thingy.

It seems that black gays who have an extremely close relationship w/their father, tend to have a better relationship with straight black men than the opposite.

Of course I could be making this up, a bit tipsy.

cmoney
November 13 2007, 10:17PM

I would never hire anyone who came into my office with his pants sagging. I just won't. He looks like an idiot who doesn't have any respect for himself or his job. I wonder if you would let a dentist put a drill in your mouth if he came to the office with his pants hanging off his ass. Sagging pants are a fashion statement the same way a white sheet and hood are a "fashion statement". Get outta here!

loi wade
November 13 2007, 10:17PM

I agree one hundred percent 'midwest'. Baggy clothes are a part of hip hop culture so why in the hell are they even using hip hop as a theme?

phone
November 13 2007, 11:34PM

For NYC police to shoot someone 20 times, you knew he was black when you heard it. You were just hoping your instincts were wrong. Saw his pic on CNN tonight. He looked like a male Brandy with short hair. Cute, but definitely dark enough to be a suspect from birth.

Maroon hair extensions are the least of that girl's problems. She needs to change that name when she hits 18. Glad her mama had some fight in her.

And it was Tulia, Texas, not MS. The people were eventually freed.

mikesing
November 13 2007, 11:53PM

some black folks are more into seeming than being; they are so indulged in looking cool. 4o years old men or even older are very brave to dress like teenagers. it believe it must be very important for them to be this way.

Sandy
November 14 2007, 12:39AM

I was in William-Sanoma here in NYC looking around. The black guard at the door must have alerted one of the shop girls to follow me around. I never became angry, she asked could she help, I said no, just looking. It didn't stop her from following me. Unforturnately, it is the type of behavior that I have seen over and over again.
For me to catch a taxi, I have to first tell the driver, out side of the car, where I am going before he will allow me to open the door. The drivers are almost always African, middle Eastern or Indian.
In Penn. Station near my job, if I use my credit card I have to show my picture ID. Of course the Indian cashier rarely asks the white person in front me who just purchased something with his or her credit card for ID. Do I carry on every time the above happens? No, but I am tired. I am a black female who experience racism in many sectors. I pick and choose my battles, just to keep my sanity.

Liquid Fonts
November 14 2007, 1:15AM

MidwestGuy November 13 2007, 9:25PM Some of you are the reasons that something is very wrong in America. Why is it that whenever Keith talks about some sort of disparity re: straight black men, most of you are so quick to dismiss it. You don't even want to hear it. You aren't even interested in unfair treatment of black men.

Midwest this article didn't seem to be about Black heterosexuals or Black gays but Blacks as a whole. Racism is blind to sexual orientation. Keith says he wasn't sure if the shooting victim was black and of course he couldn't know if he was gay, str8, bi, a Van Halen fan or any of the other various differences that exist. So how did you come to the conclusion that an article titled "THE CIMINALIZATION OF BLACKNESS" was meant for the one specific group of blacks? and where are these invisible commentors who are attacking straight black men?

elg
November 14 2007, 3:28AM

MidwestGuy: You are quite the therapist, aren't you. The subject of your "therapy", however, is always black gay men. We "emotionally spent, black fags" can do nothing right, as far as you're concerned. I'm going to play your game and practice some therapy on your ass. You probably live and/or work around the "brothas" and identify with their so-called "plight". You are probably one of those straight acting black fags (I mean black gay men) who loves that "straight" black dick. But do you actually think that black men who are truly heterosexual want or need your uncritical faggot devotion?

Do you have any black gay male friends? Is there anything about black gay men that you like? Or are most of us, in your self-hating homo mind, unhappy little boys desperate for daddy's (or some daddy-like figure) love and, thus, worthy only of your deepest contempt?

loi wade
November 14 2007, 3:43AM

Don't do it 'Midwest'. Allow me. Black people need to stand up for each other REGARDLESS of sexuality. That is the problem now. Why do you think it is so easy for white gay celebrities to pop their asses out of the closet. Because white folks support each other while we continue to take our people down. Even if I don't approve of sagging pants and other aspects of hip hop, I wouldn't dare allow anyone white to think I was anything but supportive. YES straight black men need 'uncritical faggot devotion'. Perhaps then our people can start to heal.

loi wade
November 14 2007, 4:34AM

Would anyone ever apply for a job or grad school using the moniker CMONEY? Remember afros and dashikis? There is a time and a place for everything including sagging. It was a MFing bar with a hip hop theme. What the hell would you expect someone to wear? A tux? Their are quite a few people who need to wear baggy pants to make room for those sticks up....

brucito
November 14 2007, 5:04AM

Think for a minute. You and a group of friends decide to open a business. The law says you can't discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. You establish a firm support from the people who actually live in your community. Your business is quite successful because of THEM. Now all of a sudden you begin to notice that your revenue starts going in reverse because the people who loyally supported your business will not enter when thugs are present (mainly because their own kind will not get together in a group and open a place for them to come to). Do you say the hell with it and close your business or do you suggest in as suttle a way as possible that they should go elsewhere? Remember that it is YOUR business that you are PROTECTING. THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TAXES, RENT, EMPLOYEE SALARIES, UPKEEP, UTILITIES etc.... What would you do??

Liquid Fonts
November 14 2007, 5:44AM

Loi you must've been away from your mind when you wrote "Straight black men need uncritical faggot devotion". Reminds me of Mary Mitchell's Chicago Suntimes article Black Women Aren't Traitors for Speaking Up; Black men
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20071004/ai_n21023403 about black women having their loyalty to the black community called into question when they speak out about the abuse they experience at the hands of black men. And Mary Mitchell is right. Its no different when black lgbts are expected to go along with the black community's portion of homophobia and never question it for fear of losing their blackness and life...

Liquid Fonts
November 14 2007, 6:28AM

...As far as black gay support of black Straight men, you're on a black gay site reading about social issues that point to injustices straight black men face. But when I see black heteros in other media discussing black gay issues, its usually jokes with underlying hostililty towards black gays. like that recent NPR show Keith did http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15657334 Where the male host chuckles when he asks about black lgbt concerns and that other dude who told Keith at the very end "Don't Speak For Me". Or the way "Cousin Jeff" cut his eyes at John Amechi through out that interview on Meet The Faith as if he was forced to talk to shit. And this is coming from our black heterosexual male leaders. Black lgbt's have always been supportive of mainstream black community, we are the black community it's time for some reciprocity.

elg
November 14 2007, 8:04AM

loi wade: Let MidwestGuy, the "emotionally spent, black fag" hater, speak for himself.

MidwestGuy
November 14 2007, 8:47AM

LQ, most articles about criminality among black people are specifically talking about black straight men. Have you seen Keith or anyone else write about criminality among gay black men? It's not an exagerration to make this discussion exclusive to black heteros. Besides, as you said "you're on a black gay site reading about social issues that point to injustices straight black men face. Obviously your focus is on black hetero men as well.

ELG, "emotionally spent, black fags" you may want to see where that phrase originated on this board.

Yes I live/work around brothas AND identify with their plight.

Am I supposed to live only in a gay community? That's silly.

Can I be considered a "straight black fag?" I guess I could.

Do I have a thing for black dick? None but my own.

I have two self-identified black gay friends.

Anything about gay men I like? I love me, I am gay so I guess so.

"I" don't have a problem addressing any issue posed to me on this board. That creates dialogue.

loi wade
November 14 2007, 9:56AM

Don't come for me this morning boys. It is my last day of vacation and I would like to enjoy it. BUT , since you called. All of our brotha's need our support. There are plenty of things to worry about other than their pants. Whenever I see the police unduly harrasing any black man regardless of sexuality, I am going to stand there and make sure that once he got in that squad car he was in one piece.My quoting midwest 'with uncritical faggot devotion' was more than what it appears to be. I will continue to support black men. I can't help it, I'm a black woman. And Bingo were you roommates with clarence Thomas.

Antwan
November 14 2007, 9:56AM

Well, as long as ya'll don't want to conform to what society deems "normal" don't complain about being treated different. Showing your drawers is a "fashion" statement? I guess if you have no clue that no one wants to see your underwear. This whole "hip-hop" generation has done more havoc on the lives of young black men and women than anything a racist white man or woman could do. So keeping on being style icons, but, stop the whining and complaining when the police stop you and people don't want you up in their clubs.

And, for the life of me, why are there these straight folks up in here with the catty comments? And, the gay ones who are seemingly bitter to be gay? becuase no matter how straight "acting" and "butch" you may think you are, in the end, no different in the eyes of the so called staright community.

Liquid Font
November 14 2007, 12:33PM

Midwest at this point I'm convinced that you believe you;re onto something very poignant so im going to lay off the criticism, and sit back and listen instead of running my mouth and trying to show out on here cuz its not all about Liquid Fonts.

Ron
November 14 2007, 12:43PM

I look at this from two ways; one from a business perspective and one from my own personal point of view. If I'm a businessman why in the hell would I have that kind of sign posted on "hip hop night" I'm trying to make money and whether I like hip hop style or not (and I don't) if I'm a businessman why would I post that sign which would in effect turn away probably a great deal of people who would be dressed in such a way. If I host a 70s theme night I should expect gaudy plaid suits and bell bottoms and platform shoes shouldn't I? So why would this sign be posted on hip hop night?

From a personal standpoint, I can't stand the look of hip hop style. Pull your damn pants up. I don't like the backwards or sideways cap and the 10X shirts that look like a one piece dress but when I see your underwear I often think that person looks like a bum. The low pants is my main issue

Luther
November 14 2007, 1:11PM

From Chicago Tribunes Clarence Page today:

A major new study, funded and managed by Pew Charitable Trusts, finds that since the civil rights reforms of the 1960s, the nation's income gap between blacks and whites has grown.

According to the study of some 2,300 families, incomes have increased over the last 30 years among black and white families mainly because more women are in the workforce. But the increase was greater among whites. One reason for the growing gap: Incomes among black men have actually declined in the last three decades, when adjusted for inflation. They were offset only by gains among black women.

Whether you come at these findings from the political right, the left or the wobbly moderate middle, they call for serious discussion. I used to think Americans didn't talk enough about race. I now realize Americans are delighted to talk about race, if it means they don't have to talk about class. Income inequality isn't as much fun. It's only more important.

Blue
November 14 2007, 1:16PM

Since we are on the subject of straight black men ... I have a few straight male friends. I am even a member of a black greek letter organization. (Though, I have not been active for years.) While some are cool, I have never in my life been treated more disrespectfully as a gay man than by straight black men. (And black chicks too, for that matter.) It irritates me a great deal when it comes from other blacks. So when Michael Richards called those dudes niggers, I felt very little sympathy for them, because you can bet your last money they've uttered faggot more than once. That may be small-minded, but that's how I feel. Most of them are not sympathetic of our plight and I don't always feel the need to be tuned into theirs. And for the record, my dad and I have a great relationship, so that's not an issue. It's easy for straights to say we should support all black people. To that, I say walk a day in our shoes and you will understand the hostility.

Derrick from Philly
November 14 2007, 1:34PM

Luther:
That news about Black men's income level since the mid 1960s is sobering and depressing, but not surprising. I was just telling a friend that when I was a child I remember every Black man on my block went to work everyday. Many of them dealt with incredible racism, but they did what they had to do. Never did drug dealers or gang bangers dominate North Philly until the 70s. Some would blame "Liberal policies" for the deterioration. It aint that simple. Corrupt business/coporate leaders and lousy urban education policies had a lot to do with it.

Blue, you know that I know where you're coming from. Black Gay men who get along well with Straight Black men are usually those that either "came out" late, or they make a conscious attempt to stay away from "gay issues" when around straight folk. Those who have never been gay-bashed--often nobody knows their gay.

I know I'll hear from MidWestGuy on this one. I'm ready.

bubba
November 14 2007, 1:37PM

It's a wonder that more of us don't grab a hand full of pills and let the chips fall where they may.

Ron Lee
November 14 2007, 1:51PM

Perception,Perception,Perception. First I want to say that many times some black people think it's about us when it really isn't about us at all. White people Str8 & gay are trying to discourage young whites period from sporting the hip/hop look period. It's not blacks or hispanics they could care less how we dress they don't want impressionable white kids immitating our dress or hair styles. The hair streak especially purple and blue has become a gay girl symbol str8 people, get it. The black socalled hip/hop/gang culture has made it easy for anyone to shoot a black male and feel no remorse about it. Even though New York City has had some of the most racist incidents to occur there in recent times blacks from New York Str8 & Gay talk about their city as though,there's nothing wrong there and everything there is great,black employment? What a perception. Brothers it don't look like we gonna get it together.We don't have an agenda and we fighting the white man's fight.We are going in circles to nowhere. PEACE

liquid fonts
November 14 2007, 2:11PM

Luther I heard about that and it would be great if someone would talk about it on the message board instead of just here hidden under all these comments.

Dean
November 14 2007, 2:28PM

What does that last sentence by Equalnox mean? What is it supposed to mean? I am an African American! You cannot be a Black American without being an African American. They are synonomous. It is the stripping away of our African history, African languages and African cultures that have made us less than whole. It is the stripping away of our African history, languages and cultures during 249 years of slavery and another century of legally sanctioned second-class citizenship and our resultant legacy of slavery that is the cause of our problems. Slavery is over but we still bear the burden of its legacy.

Remember: If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

Mr. Equalnox, you appear to be part of the problem.

MidwestGuy
November 14 2007, 2:36PM

The Study also found that: Nearly half of blacks born to middle-income parents in the late 1960s plunged into poverty or near-poverty as adults

-blacks have had more difficulty than whites in transmitting benefits [wealth] to their children.

-45% of black children whose parents were solidly middle class in 1968--grew up to be among the lowest fifth of the nation's earners, with a family income of $23,100.

-middle-class blacks appear to be downwardly mobile. For every $10 of wealth a white person has, blacks have $1.

-48% of black children whose parents were in an economic bracket with a median family income of $41,700 sank into the lowest income group.

DPhil, lol, I don't disagree with those assessments. My earlier point was to suggest a possible reason that black gay men seem to have so much antipathy towards straight black men. It didn't have to be the only reason.

Have I been gay-bashed? Depends on what that means.

I have been called a fag. Not sure if that's the same.

A Grrl
November 14 2007, 3:54PM

Sorry but I agree, Blue. That's why I don't feel that bad when black men today are victimized by others. As many times as I've heard a black man insulting and abusing black womyn in general, I have no idea how those victims of police brutality or targets of slur-spewing racists would've treated ME as a black grrl if we had crossed paths or how they treated the black womyn they did come across. You couldn't have paid me a million dollars to go down to Jena and protest for those guys- even though I do feel that was an injustice. If its not a man in my family that's been victimized, I can't worry about him. I just shake my head and move on with my day.

MidwestGuy
November 14 2007, 4:22PM

AGrrl, I don't know how many black men you know. But, the overwhelming number and I mean overwhelming number of black men do not insult and abuse black women. So, it's wrong to hold residual indifference to the plight of black men based on the actions of some.

It is no different than white people being indifferent to the plights of black based on the actions of some.

It is no different that black people being indifferent to the plights of whites based on the actions of some.

It is no different than hetero blacks not giving a damn about black gays for whatever reason.

I now wonder have some of you had ANY positive reinforcement from black men in your lives. This is strange.

Some of you make it seem as if "good" straight black men don't exist at all.

Now that is a really, really big problem and feeds into the perceptions that dictate our actions.

Over 70% of the CBC were black men who supported EDNA.

That's why we need them. Keep thinking we don't.

cward
November 14 2007, 4:56PM

"You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you are making progress. No matter how much respect, no matter how much recognition, whites show towards me, as far as I'm concerned, as long as it is not shown to every one of our people in this country, it doesn't exist for me."

Malcolm X

J
November 14 2007, 5:17PM

I don't see how some can see this as a racial issue and booting someone for their outfit isn't the same as following them around a store.

This has nothing to do with race, gender, or orientation. These businesses got a clue and decided to fight the people that kill their income. The idea that this style has anything to do with music is BS. That's like saying murder and crack dealing are a part of the culture. That's PRISON style.

A Grrl
November 14 2007, 5:19PM

To Loi Wade, are you sure that many of those men that you blindly support would support you back? If you needed that guy who got in the squad car in one piece, would he help you, or would he take advantage of your vulnerability or use you as an example in a rant about how "no good" black womyn generally are? Or would he be too lazy/indifferent to even acknowledge your problem at all?

To MidwestGuy, I know there some kind straight black men but truthfully, there are more than a few that aren’t so unless I had some good proof, there’s a real chance that these victims wouldn’t respect me. Those guys who Richard’s insulted might’ve hurt me as a black womym as much as they might’ve hurt a sgl person. Speaking of Richards, what I’m explaining is the same as not obsessing over white celebrities because there’s a chance that more than a few are racists and would scorn me & my loved ones. Until I know a person is worthy of getting my fondness or sympathy, I’d have to know they deserved it first.

cmoney
November 14 2007, 9:44PM

loi wade: There is no way in hell that it is appropriate for a grown man to come to work in an office with his pants hanging off his ass. Stop trying to make excuses for people making fools of themselves. The no baggy pants policy at the clubs is no different from ano other dress code. There is an upscale Bowling Alley/Bar in Washington DC called Lucky Strikes that has an even more restrictive dress code. No Sports caps, timber lands, sports team memorabilia, wife beaters, etc. Basically--NO THUG SHIT. It applies to everybody--Black, Hispanic, White, Asian. And guess what? It is very successful, has many Black patrons and hasn't had a single shooting yet. Sometimes people just want to go out and have a good time without being hassled by a bunch rowdy men or worrying about their safety. If Hip Hop culture wants full acceptance, it has to discard its reputation and glorification of violence, homophobia and crime.

Blue
November 14 2007, 9:51PM

Cmoney's right ... that's a nice spot here in the city. Same thing with Strike Bethesda. It is nice to party where people don't look like hoodrats and know how to act.

Milt
November 15 2007, 12:21AM

@Dean, you said it best..."Slavery is over but we still bear the burden of its legacy"

loi wade
November 15 2007, 2:35AM

A grrl, I am not concerned with that. I am only concerned with whether or not I can sleep at night. For every culturally dead fool, there are a hundred kings. What about the young man that was shot to death the night before he was to marry the black mother of his beautiful babies? This really breaks my heart that so many of you think like this. Moreso it scares me to death that we have so much hate for each other. And Cmoney, I didn't say anything about an office. If they did that, they don't want a job. I said a bar with a hip hop theme night, not an upscale gentleman's club. Another thing that scares me is that anyone white that reads this post can see how easy it is to divide us. Damn, Massa's job wasn't hard at all.

loi wade
November 15 2007, 3:21AM

And, to cward, you made my D A Y! Malcolm X is the epitome of black manhood. And, once again grrl, if you have a son or nephew, please don't make them think that they are anything less than beautiful. At 13 I was molested. My daughters father ran off because he didn't want his wages garnished for child support. But It was my black stepfather who helped me until I got on my feet, My black uncle who came to all my childhood school functions and a black dope dealer who stopped handling his 'business' to jump my car. I know I gave out too much personal info, but at this point it was needed.

loi wade
November 15 2007, 4:50AM

Liquid fonts, I read the sun times article in your post. The last thing Clarence Thomas is is a black man. NO ONE black supports that creepy mother.... And as far as Isaiah Thomas is concerned, I don't tolerate disrespect from anyone. After I got done with him , that grown ass black man would sit down and cry. The next time he saw a black woman he would bow down. Yes , I am the person to bring home the stray cat. But I was also raised by my great aunt. A woman who earned a masters degree at a time when most black women prayed for a job as a maid.

Equalnox
November 15 2007, 9:27AM

Dean, what I meant by my last sentence is that black Americans are more mentally American than we are African. We're mostly Christian, we dress in western garb, we identify more with western culture than African culture. How many of us speak Swahili or Somali? How many of us have actually been to Africa? How many of us have friends or relatives who are African born and raised? What my last statement means is how do we, the lost tribe of Africa escape the racism of America? If we sell our homes and migrate back to the mother land, will we truly feel welcome? What about the many African countries that will jail or excecute black gays? Do we stay in the states and continue to hope that one day white society will embrace us? It seems to me if you can't figure out what I was saying, then *you're* part of the problem and not the solution.

Blue
November 15 2007, 9:29AM

Massa has nothing to do with the divisions among us when it comes to black gay men vs. black straight men. Are you straight or gay loi wade, I'm just curious .... because a straight black woman is not going to understand this issue.

elg
November 15 2007, 9:47AM

MidwestGuy: You wondered if some of us believe that 'good straight black men' don't exist. My dad, now dead, was a good man who worked hard at menial jobs to provide for his family. I have no close ties, however, to straight black men in or out of my family. This turn of events was not by design. One of the black women in my office was calling me a "fag/punk" so obsessively that the white people in the ofice started calling me anti-gay names. I filed a complaint but no one would corroborate my allegations. I lost and the harrassment continues. I wonder, as a black openly gay man, do any 'good straight black women' exist. None of them came to my defense either before, during or after my complaint. Dealing with straight blacks of either sex has become a source of anxiety for me. The only black people I have any empathy for now are black gay men. That is not going to change. I realize that my revelations are fresh fodder for you to bash me with but I'm a survivor and decided to throw it out there anyway.

Derrick from Philly
November 15 2007, 10:27AM

elg:
Very interesting testimony. I too have experienced straight (or one of those dl so 'n sos) giving white people the "ok" to verbally gay bash me. How it usually happens is: the white folks really aren't paying you any attention until a "fellow" black employee tells them, "y'all know that's a faggot, don't you?" With that action, the black straight guy has told the white folks,"any other black person here I will stand by, but that black faggot he's fair game for insult--he's not part of the black "family".

It's a type of black on black gay bashing that is more painful than actual violence. And, yes, it makes some of us keep our distance from straight black men. But then, when we do that, they accuse us of being "uppity and white men's dick suckers." Chile, you can't win.

loi wade
November 15 2007, 10:42AM

This is truly a hot topic that has some otherwise intelligent human beings very divided. Blue, I am a Lesbian who lost the love of her life/best friend,a black gay man to aids eight years ago. He would have agreed with me 100%(though he DID hate sagging pants lol!) that blacks cannot afford to be divided on silly issues. Clothes don't go around bashing people over the head. Hell, we all know the biggest thugs work in the white house. Now Elg ,I have to start my day worried about you. Have you ever heard of a spy cam? take or where one to work. Keep a paper trail of all the harassment. But DON'T let it go. Gather all of your evidence , I don't care how long it takes. Then you will have an even bigger lawsuit for your companies failure to protect you from a hostile work environment. Alright boys, it is 7:40 out here. Gotta catch the train.

MidwestGuy
November 15 2007, 11:15AM

ELG, stop the white woman holding her purse routine. I have not bashed you on this board. Instead, look at your responses to my post and see who "bashed" who.

You seem angry with the "straight" world and may have every reason to be. However, fuck how people feel about you! There are steps you can take on your job if you feel as if your concerns aren't being met. Address the offender, take it to the supervisor, then to HR. If no help there, contact EEOC. You don't have to sit and take it. Of course, it's much easier said than done.

You have to live for yourself and be fit for yourself to know. Show them wimp and that's how they'll treat you.

DP>that happens across the board w/black people. Black people giving white people (or a system) an excuse to bash (or like this article) treat other blacks unfairly.

Yes it hits closer home when it's a gay issue. But, why should others care about gays when gays don't seem to care about them. It's a neverending tit for tat.

saint james
November 15 2007, 2:08PM

As I see it, part of the problem with some of the posters is the superficial view of what connects us as black people. Clarence Thomas, of whom I am neither fan nor friend, is still black despite his political views. We don't have the option of turning in our "Black Card" nor can we revoke the same because another black person does, says, believes, thinks contrary to the majority. Straight, gay, light, dark, african, northern, southern, Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, carribean, democratic, republican, apolitical, WHATEVER. We all belong to one another. We are from one another and of one another and we should be for one another even if we cannot agree on everything. We all came from the same Mother (yes, even the Cape Verdeans, y'all are black too!) and we're all in the same boat now. We can disaprove of behavior and philosophy but we must not cut each other off because of it. Our survival in this country and the world depends on our solidarity. It's impossible for me to love myself and hate you.

gatamala
November 15 2007, 5:20PM

co-sign a grrrl & blue

check out what about our daughters blog & see the discussion on Dunbar Village

The days of blind allegiance are dead and buried. It's time for sbm to put up or shut up.

juan pablo
November 15 2007, 6:13PM

good stuff saint james and, for the life of me,i don't get how some blacks seem to think they are "special" in this country or any country around the globe, since when you walk into any room, the first thing they see is black, and, most see black it in a negative manner.

as for all those who have issues with the straight black community, and, legitimately so, maybe, its time to try and educate these knuckleheads about being gay, since, from what i have seen, may think we are getting some sort of "special privileges" as if that's the real world.

the real issue is poor education and stereotypes, and lack of jobs in many cities, jobs that actually pay more than $7 or $8 an hour, and, a lack of everybody looking out for everyone else, like in the old days, sometimes integration is the bane of many of the issues we face.

why would anyone patronize any store or establishment that treats you different because of your skin color? if, you are fool enough to do so, don't complain. or file a complaint.

jas
November 15 2007, 6:22PM

the boy who was shot looked like he was 14. no threat to a large group of police officers with guns.

and gay people should be the last people to discriminate based on dress fashion!! one of the beautiful things about the gay community is exactly the diversity and freedom to do/wear whatever you want, its a damned shame that this bar is trying to undermine that

elg
November 15 2007, 7:33PM

MidwestGuy: And you should stop whining on a black gay site about how straight black men are mistreated, especially since you're not one of them. Let them defend their own sorry black asses. I don't come to a black gay site to read about the poor, pitiful mistreated straight black man.
There is a formal grievance process on my job and it has to be followed. I filed a formal complaint. I lost because no one would corroborate my allegations. The official reviewing my allegations couldn't take my word alone for the truth. There had to be at least one corroborating witness. I had none. You've heard, I'm sure, of the blue wall of silence (the police don't tell on each other). Well, I this was the straight wall of silence: straight people do not tell on each other in these situations. At least not on my job.
There is a happy ending. My last day on the job is 11-30-07. I'll have a comfortable income for life, with good benefits. My distrust, however, of straight black men (and straight black women) is total.

loi wade
November 15 2007, 8:24PM

Elg!you can't let them get away with this. What about the gay man or lesbian that comes after you? Before you leave , make sure they NEVER forget you. This way it looks like they ran you off and they win. As far as the sistah goes, she sees a 'BMW' that she can't have.

Darnell
November 15 2007, 8:28PM

Good luck with your job search elg, and, if you are ever in that situation, do what a friend of mine did, she took in a tape recorder to show the harassment she was getting,which oddly enough came in a racist from from ther Spanish speaking co-workers, whoch they denied, but, once translated would have made a Klansman blush.

And, don't waste your time woring about what staright anyone thinks, I learned long ago, dismiss anyone who comes at you wrong, black, white, gay or straight.

@juan, I agree, why waste your time going to places you aren't welcomed in?

brucito
November 16 2007, 4:52AM

I was listening to Pacifica Radio yesterday and a caller made a statement that was so true that I need someone's help. Foreigners come here knowing that the key to getting rich is to simply open ANY KIND OF BUSINESS IN A BLACK COMMUNITY. Not only will they generate enough income to keep all of their family members clothed and fed but will also be able to send all of their kids to college. The caller ended by asking the listening audience to name three BLACK OWNED companies in ANY city in America (where there are at least 40 million black people) that employ more than 100 blacks. I live and work in NYC and could not name one. Can someone out there please help me out with an answer? The caller asked to name three but my greatest fear is that there might not be even one.

Derrick from PHilly
November 16 2007, 9:36AM

elg:

Good luck in your life without the gay-bashing assholes you endured on your previous job. I work on a university campus--most of these mothas know you can't go around calling gay people faggots and bulldaggers (white folks say, "bulldykers") on the job. Every now and then you get some ignorant fool who might try, but someone reminds them that if they want to keep their job they better keep quiet about their hatred for gay employees.
Gay folks in private companies may not be as protected.
On the job, we gays are always aware that if we respond to gay-bashing (as we'd like to) things could escalate and we'd be the ones blamed for the trouble, because we would "leave no survivors" in our response. What I mean is that we'd be calling our co-workers all kinds of "ignorant nigguhs, dirty white trash, and smelly foreign folks." The war would be on.

I just wish on your final day you could hire a couple of drag queens to help you clean out your office- that would fix them homophobic motha' fuckas

MLee
November 16 2007, 11:41AM

Cmoney, you used the wrong approach when suggesting to the young Black lawyer that his sagging pants were inappropriate for an office setting. You should have walked up to him. Patted him on the ass, and at the same time whispered in his ear “Man, don’t you know you could be raped showing your ass like that.” I guarantee you he would have second thoughts before wearing sagging pants again.

I can accept you disliking sagging pants especially in the office, but don’t you at least enjoy staring at his ass. Me, I would not be able to get any work done all day.

elg
November 16 2007, 12:12PM

loi wade: You know, I was thinking the same thing: that I should do or say something for the sake of a black gay man or lesbian that may come after me. We shall see.

Derrick from Philly: Thank you. I agree completely with your assessment that if we gays responded to gay bashing as we'd like to, we'd be blamed for the trouble.

MLee
November 17 2007, 1:51PM

This is about white shoplifters. I went to summer camp for 2 years. The camp was run by a university. It had 100 campers ages 10 to 22 from around the country, most from fairly wealthy families, and only 2 were Blacks. I was 21 with a scholarship. We stayed in cabins, 16 campers per cabin grouped by age. Once my white cabin mates warmed up to me, they loved going into town with me. When we went into stores, the employees would follow me around while the white kids would steal the store blind. Believe me I had no part in their scheme, a Black kid in a small white country town hundreds of miles from home caught sealing. NO! NO! NO! My parents did not raise a fool. Those white kids never were caught.

Derrick from Philly, a university has been my only employer, except for the 3 1/2 days I worked on an assembly line in a car plant out of high school. After that experience, you should have seen me beating a path to register for college.

Nina
November 18 2007, 10:23AM

I've had a chance to read through all the comments here and they all have every interesting and some valid points. However if you look historically and culturally at slavery,not all slaves that were gathered came from tribes that were friendly towards each other. They just gathered up the merchandise not considering the tribal affiliation and warring factions. So to think that once we got here to this melting pot that some how all us Aficans would get along is ludicrous. We as black people in America have this mythical love affair with mother Africa,here's some news she might not love you back!Since we were stripped and in some instances gave away our tribal identity we now have the mess that we are in. We claim Hip-Hop with both hands, yet we've given away jazz,an origianl American artform which we created or the blues. Has anyone gone to a blues or jazz concert lately look at the faces in the crowd does the majority look like you or the other man. Then ask yourself were we have gone wrong.

loi wade
November 18 2007, 10:49AM

Nina this is the last comment I will make on this subject. Of course we were from different tribes. They made it a point to separate us based on that so we couldn't communicate. Well we certainly found our way around that. We pulled from the things we did have in common and found a way to talk to each other, hence modern day black slang. We identify so heavily with Africans because we were stripped of our language , traditions ,customs and heritage. Everything that makes us human. We needed something to belong to. Something other than a legacy of slavery. Everything that is us the white man tries to disassociate us from it. Egypt is on the coast of Africa It is not in Europe but if you read any standard school or employment application North Africans are called white. We didn't give away a damn thing. They stole it. Now they are working on hip hop. I am not one of those Negroes to brag about my black history. I make it a point to know enough to stop anyone who tries to steal it.

MLee
November 18 2007, 5:29PM

Nina, I do not buy what you are saying. I agree our ancestors came from different African tribes and warring factions. If anything the experience of slavery should have bonded our people closer together. Who today would associate that the reason he is fighting his Black brother is because his African ancestors were also warring factions? Like it or not, we are all the same tribe now.

loi wade
November 18 2007, 8:20PM

Say it again MLee! NOW I'm done.

cmoney
November 18 2007, 10:13PM

Mlee: He wasn't that cute. This was one whose ass you really didn't want to see :-(

Equalnox
November 19 2007, 8:01AM

The only reason we bonded together is because we had a common enemy. As soon as whitey walks out the room, we're back at each other's throats. Statistically speaking, black men are more likely to be killed by each other than to be killed by white society. We've got the Crips (spelling) and the Bloods, young black men who kill each other based soley on what color shirts they wear. We've got the light-skin versus dark-skin tug-of-war on the annual Tom Joyner Morning Show Cruise. Recently in Chicago black gays were killed by black straights. At this point in time we may look like the Africans who are now migrating to the States, but we don't think like them because we don't share the same culture. Yes, we've come a long way as a society, but we've got a long way to go.

KB
November 20 2007, 2:55AM

What racism?

Getting back to the original story...the cartoon character on the sign looks like something from the Peanuts comic strip, not a Black person. Considering that 70% of hiphop music is bought by white folks, that West Hollywood is predominantly White, and that the character on the sign is of indeterminate ethnic origin, I don't see anything racist about this sign.

The club is free to set whatever dress standards it pleases. It may be offensive, but it doesn't look racist to me. I think that everyone with the kneejerk racism reaction needs to think about all the Black folks who go to clubs with a velvet rope where you let a doorman tell you whether you are attractive enough, wealthy enough, or lightskinned enough to get in. Pathetic.

Look at the REAL racism (crime, violence, hate) within our BLACK and GAY/SGL communities and stop wasting time on petty perceptions.

tee
November 21 2007, 7:33PM

Whats sup Fam,
Just wanted to comment on this issue. This is not new to me. I attended Auburn University and for those of u who has never heard of this University it is located in Auburn Alabama very small town actually the college is the town, it is 15min away from tuskegee. Downtown area is where all of the clubs are located, and their has been plenty of incidents where they had a dress code that target african americans. You see all the white frat and sorors gathering around having a great time. They have had articles about the specific clubs that had these dress codes that which just so happens to be owned by the same guy. Their have been news articles about it and some black males from tuskegee say they have been turned around at the door, because the bouncer said they had to have an auburn I.D, which was a bunch of bull. Auburn football games are sooooo rawdy, downtown is packed and regulars are their, its just a shame, I never even tried, always had an unwelcome feeling walking by