A Lesson Before Dying

FRE
October 10 2007, 2:19AM

If an offender truly repents, we are required to forgive, but often it is impossible to know if the offender has truly repented. Of course, that does not mean that the offender should be spared the legally prescribed penalty. However, if the offender does not repent, then we are not required to forgive, but may do so if we are able to do so.

It is too much to expect anyone to forgive immediately. Doing so can take days, months, or even years.

Jeff Hobbs
October 10 2007, 2:59AM

This is truly one of the saddest stories you've covered on here Keith. It breaks my heart to know that these parents as loving and as Christian as they are are trying to do their best to cope and to keep a positive attitude through all of this. Did they know their son was gay before all of this? I don't recall. So much has happened in their lifes this past year and I can only hope that they are not burying their grief and not dealing with it. I can't imagine the pain of losing a child. I know its one of the hardest things anyone can ever go through in life and I'm sure its no easier for them than anyone else. How they are choosing to deal with it is beyond admirable and seeing this truly represents the Christ-like attitude of a true Christian. My heart and thoughts are with them. Much love!:)

elg
October 10 2007, 7:09AM

Let's not forget that the driver of the vehicle that struck and killed Michael Sandy when he ran into traffic to escape his attackers has never been caught. In hindsight, Sandy might still be alive if he had stood his ground and fought with his attackers. We gay men, including myself, must do a better job of defending ourselves (and each other). This includes thinking about what you would do in a similar situation. Have a specific plan in mind before an attack actually occurs. Then when (if) it happens, execute the plan (if not the attacker). I admire Sandy's parents.

Blue
October 10 2007, 8:21AM

Elg ... you are right on some level but come on . Think about this. You are outnumbered by a group of men you don't know - fear will overcome even the strongest individual in that situation. Especially given the fact it was probably the last thing that crossed his mind. I'm not going to sit here and say what I would have done. That man was probably scared to death and felt helpless.

As for forgiveness ... it's necessary. If you don't learn how to forgive shit will eat you alive. I'm dealing with that now ... it's a learning process.

Nathan James
October 10 2007, 10:41AM

Forgiveness is how we heal our souls. I admire and applaud Denise Sandy for having the courage to forgive. Many in our society talk about doing the "Christian thing" but all too often we find it easier to be punitive and hateful. Mrs. Sandy's example should serve us as a guide. Let us forgive, and pray that God gives Michael Sandy's killers the courage to discover themselves and the harm they've done. If they can turn their evil into something good, by teaching others not to hate, then they will have honored the memory of their victim.

ramsueno
October 10 2007, 11:35AM

It is possible to forgive someone's actions but they still have to face the consequences of those actions...I hope the courts do the right thing and that the Sandy family can have some solace and peace if not closure...

Amanda
October 10 2007, 11:38AM

Elg -

I usually find comments on here about my friend to be heartwarming and kind. You - I don't even know where to begin. HOW DARE YOU.

How DARE you pretend to know what Mike did or not try to do to save his life? How DARE you pretend to know how you would have reacted to being jumped by 4 thugs on a dark beach at night? How DARE you pretend like you know he didn't have a "plan" and maybe it just didn't turn out the way he thought it would.

Whats done is done, and going back and judging him after his death for actions you neither experienced or witnessed is ignorant and insensitive.

Troy
October 10 2007, 12:14PM

our way back to love..

Terrence Says
October 10 2007, 12:28PM

As a professional, who deals with the courts regularly, a courthouse presence like Ms. Sandy's are few and far between.

Mrs. Sandy's peace and strength comes from God. And because she has peace, she is able to forgive. Not forgiving could eat her alive and possibly lead to perpetual anguish, despair, mental health issues or even death. Because she has forgiven, she has already won.

Nonetheless, I still feel for Mrs. Sandy, her family and other families that have lost loved ones to senseless violence.

Darnell
October 10 2007, 12:32PM

Well, she is a better human than I am, sorry, I would not forgive anyone who killed my son for no reason. This thug will be out on the streets in a couple of years laughing about what he did, like they did the night of the murder, and, she will still have no son. I would not go around hating this killer, as, hate only eats you up, but, I sure wouldn't say I forgive him, since he has never apologized, and if he did, I'm sure he did not mean it, and just did it to curry favor with the judge for the already light sentence he is going to get. His dad said he was a "good" kid, good kids don't rob and murder.

I for one tire of the vitctim having to take the high road, and the killer not having to do so.

cward
October 10 2007, 1:29PM

I hold no grudge
There's no resentment und'neath
I'll extend the laurel wreath and we'll be friends
But right there is where it ends

I hold no grudge
And I'll forgive you your mistake
But forgive me if I take it all to heart
And make sure that it doesn't start again

Yes I'm the kind of people
You can step on for a little while
But when I call it quits
Baby that's it
I'm the kind of people
You can hurt once in a while
But crawling just ain't my style

I hold no grudge
Deep inside me there's no regrets
But a gal who's been forgotten may forgive
But never once forget.

Billy
October 10 2007, 3:17PM

Easier said than done...but yes "forgiveness" is necessary for the victim more so than the guilty perpetrator.

Karmatic
October 10 2007, 4:22PM

What are some of the lessons we can learn from this sad event?

ELG brings up a valid point (in my opinion)..We should consider what we (as Gay men) would do in a similar situation...Those clowns targeted Gay men because they see us as weak and timid..This is of course not entirely our fault, but with the help of the popular culture (such as MTV ,BET, and Black Sitcoms), we have been stereotyped as a bunch a sissies who will hand over our "purse" if you simply ask for it...
@Amanda~~My heart goes out to you and the Sandy family...Time will hopefully assist in your healing.

Andy
October 10 2007, 6:02PM

He was targeted because of some television show and silly stereotype? Now, I've read it all, I know the Internet is filled with conspiracy theories, but, this one is a slap in the face of a VICTIM. he was killed by some goofy white boys who thought they were thugs that I as a 45 year old man could give a beat down to if pushed by them. And, I don't know what part of the country that some of you black gay men live in, but, ya'll need a grip, the world does not see most black gay men as "sissies" unless that is how you portray yourself. And, even if you are the biggest "queen" in town, stand up for yourself, and, most "sissies" and "queens" will fight off a line backer from the Packers, and win, so, the only stereotypes that abound are the silly DL ones who have sex with men and can't own up to being gay.

The openly way to avoid this situation and keep your mother and father and other family members from all this unnecessary heart ache is to love your self. And, skip the Internet and trade for sex.

MLee
October 10 2007, 6:30PM

I did not know how to respond to comments by ELG and Amanda without seeming to be disrespectful. Karmatic summed it up perfectly. I only know I had tears in my eyes while reading Keith's article “A Lesson Before Dying”.

Ostend Street
October 10 2007, 7:08PM

My heart was truly broken when I read this sad account and Keith thanks for taking the time to introduce us to this remarkable mother. I will truly remember this kind soul and her family and her son in my Rosary Prayers. I wish her great peace and good fortune. How very sad!!!

G-man
October 10 2007, 7:11PM

My hope is that Mrs. Sandy will be a beacon of light to anyone who is holding on to any hate or bitterness in their heart. If she could forgive the men who killed her son we certainly can let go and forgive the people in our lives that have wronged us.

cward
October 10 2007, 7:38PM

My selfish hope is that Matthew Shepard and Michael Sandy can share the same spotlight. I want Michael's face and his facts to be as well known as Shepard's.

Alice Jo
October 10 2007, 9:18PM

Sadly, Mr Sandy will never reach the icon status that Mr Shepard got. The majority of the gay community just can't identify with him and the violent death he suffered.

As for forgiveness, its great his mother can, but, why should she be the bigger person? Sorry, I could not and would not do so, its not going to change anything at all. Maybe she can sleep better at night, but, its not going to stop this sort of vile violence from happening again.

The true sign of if he is worthy of forgivness is the sentence, which I feel will be nothing more than a slap on the hand, and the killer will go on his merry way without a shred of remorse.

Steve
October 10 2007, 11:00PM

Blue & Nathan - you're right. Sandy's family needs forgiveness to heal their souls. As for the rest of us, it's our job to seek justice, and when we face down the perpetrators of such a crime, we need to consider the need of society to exact a penalty severe enough to discourage future offenders. Let them find their peace. Let us, as a society, find ours.

elg
October 11 2007, 9:30AM

Amanda: I did not mean to imply that Michael Sandy was in any way to blame for what happened to him. My earlier comments were meant to encourage gay men, including myself, to think about a "hook-up" situation turning violent and having to fight for your life. Brothers, have a plan.

By the way, it doesn't have to be a hook-up situation. Gay men have been attacked coming out of bars or just walking down the street minding their business. What Karmatic says is true: gay men are considered easy targets who are afraid to fight. Let's change the perception this society has of us and learn how to fight. Some of us already know. But more of us, including me, need to. Amanda: This is an attempt to clarify my earlier comments. What happened to Michael Sandy makes me sad and humble: I have been in "hook-up" situations where I could have been (but wasn't) hurt. He did nothing wrong and I did not mean to imply that he did.

Derrick from Philly
October 11 2007, 10:16AM

All of the comments on this thread are well thought out and from the heart. If most people could do what Mrs Sandy has done, it'd certainly be a better world. Half of the murders, mass killings, etc. we have are from our inability to forgive.

elg & Karmatic: what you said is true. I guess some folks don't think your comments were appropriate for the focus of this topic (Mrs Sandy and the need to forgive). But nevertheless, your comments were important in a way some folks may not realize. The reason some of us cannot find the healing that comes with forgiving is because we never forgave ourselves for not fighting back in certain situations--situations where we were targeted because we were gay, or a "certain type of gay". But for some of us that may mean physically fighting every day of our lives--sometimes several times a day. That's too much. Now some folks believe that if you fight back enough, you will NOT appear so easily intimidated--an easy target. It's a choice forced on us by savages.

Derrick fromPhilly
October 11 2007, 10:54AM

"...forced on us by savages."

See what I mean? The lesson of Mrs Sandy's & Mr Sandy's humanity and moral maturity isn't easy to achieve. No.

dash
October 11 2007, 12:47PM

Part 1

I have to clear some things up here. All of this is from testimony of the courtroom, first-hand, so you can flame away if you must, but the facts are being lost in all of this.

I'm going to start this by saying I have nothing but sympathy for the Sandy family and all of Michael's friends. But Michael was not "lured" anywhere. The chat transcripts have his first question to John Fox as "do you blaze?" He was looking for a romp. The testimony of all of the defendents is that they were going to smoke the guy's pot and then deny a party. One defendent, Fortunato, came out in all of this and said that he was going to test the waters of a coming-out party with this meet-up. Since there has been pretty ample testimony that he is, in fact, gay, it's pretty easy to figure out why he knew all about the chat room, the section of beach, etc. (continued...)

dash
October 11 2007, 1:48PM

Part 2

The agreement among the 'thugs' (corroborated by all of FOUR of their independent testimonies) was that Fortunato -- referred to as “'Nato” in the videotaped testimony -- repeatedly said “No funny stuff. We’re just gonna smoke the guy’s pot. That’s it. Right?” This was said a number of times, as Fortunato expressly did NOT want anything bad to go down. It was agreed that they were going to party with Michael and move on.

When Michael first arrived, he saw Fox was not alone and thought that there was a multi-player session in the works, and he turned around and opted out. He went back home and got back on the chat. The four defendants, still looking to party - though not exactly in the same way as Sandy (though who knows if Fortunato was hoping for a tryst) — also eventually returned to the chat room where they found Michael once again. He explained that it looked like “you were hanging out with some friends, so I left.” (continued...)

Darnell
October 11 2007, 2:38PM

Hey dash, where did you find these transcripts?

Thanks.

dash
October 11 2007, 3:17PM

Part 3

Still wanting to party and apparently really hard up for cash or pot, Fox told him to come on back. Michael did so.

When he arrived, they started off toward the beach and, unexpected to everyone involved, the Russian kid, Ilya Shurov, punched Michael. Michael freaked, dropped his stuff and ran. Ilya chased. Why? Who knows, considering personal possessions were left behind already. From the testimony it was that quick. Fox states that he chased after Ilya shouting for him to stop. Ilya continued the chase and caught up with Michael. Fox also caught up and, according to his testimony, was trying to get Ilya off of Michael. Fox’s success in helping free Michael may have been a bad thing, as Michael continued running toward the highway. Ilya chased again and Michael ran onto the highway. (continued...)

dash
October 11 2007, 4:01PM

Darnell -- if you're asking about the Chat Room transcripts I do not have them, I simply know the court testimony because my wife has been there the entire time.

Here's Part 4

Traffic stopped in the lane they were in. Ilya was trying to pull Michael back off the roadway — what must have seemed to Michael as back into the dark — and he pulled free and backed up into the lane of traffic that wasn’t stopped. Hit and run, Michael was on the ground. Ilya rummaged through Michael’s pockets and then dragged him back off the road. He was left for dead.

Fortunato took off as soon as the first punch was thrown back on the beach. He testified that because of the direction he walked and the dunes on the beach that he couldn't even see what was going on. This is corroborated testimony, and the fact is that the police did not even arrest him for a couple of weeks because his story stood up, even to them. (continued...)

dash
October 11 2007, 4:36PM

Part 5

Fox maintains that in chasing he was not out to “get” Michael, but that he was actually trying to stop Shurov, "that crazy Russian kid." Timmins maintained that he was not out to do harm either, though he does have a rap sheet a mile long at only 16.

I know it’s not cool to criticize the victim. I know I know I know. But Michael put himself in a very dangerous situation for the promise of a party and a little head. What he planned on happening that night did not turn out as he planned.

Point to be made: according to the testimony, that’s exactly what happened to three of the four defendants as well. They had no reason to know or suspect that Shurov would attack Michael (and for what?). They were there to smoke Michael’s pot and let him down that there would be no boy party — a swindle of the lamest kind. While that’s not cool, that’s also not murder. (continued...)

dash
October 11 2007, 6:22PM

Closing thoughts…

It’s been an eye-opener for me to know the first-hand testimony and to see the way it’s framed in the media. To know the facts of the case is to cause one to reconsider the application of the word ‘thug’ to all of the defendants, and perhaps to apply worse terms yet to the one who really did cause Michael's death, and who is (not coincidentally) being tried separately. What happened that night was a tragedy; no parent should ever bury their child, and there are at least 5 families who are devastated right now. But the portrait of “they lured him to a dark deserted beach to pounce on him” is simply not borne up by the facts (as evidenced by the manslaughter conviction as well, as opposed to murder). It’s very easy to get into cartoon characterizations, made-for-tv dramatization scripts. The facts, however, are not as easy. (continued...)

brucito
October 11 2007, 8:38PM

Dash I must thank you for posting this info. I am speechless. Please keep the rest of us who have to work during the day informed on the details of this trail. Oprah had a show about Meth in the not too distant past. Hopefully when this is all over she will find it in her heart to air this one too. Does anyone know if Star Jones has covered any of it?

'dre
October 11 2007, 8:47PM

Interesting updates, even though they are second hand and left to one persons point of view in the room, however, I somehow doubt if the families of the 5 killers will suffer much, once they get a couple of years behind bars, all will be well and forgotten, and the one "good" kid will be on the NYC Fire department like his upstanding papa, and the rest will lead the lives they want, wives, kids and good jobs and will have this impugned from their records.

The only one who suffered was Mr Sandy and his family, for not using his head. And, some will view him as not being a victim of a violent crime because of his lifestyle, like this verdict showed. Because if Mr Sandy were white, gay and murdered by these losers, this outcome would have been totally different, we all know that for a real fact.

dash
October 12 2007, 12:44AM

Closing thoughts 2…

A key to what most folks are missing is that the Sandy's, too, have been in court every day, and they have heard the testimony and the facts of the case. “Two months later, in April, after videotapes of confessions were played in the courtroom, Mrs. Sandy said of the defendants collectively, ‘I don’t think he meant harm. It just got out of hand, probably got out of control.’”

This is key to understanding how she can be forgiving: the evidence is that it was just a series of fucked-up events. I know that's an oversimplification, but there it is. And Mrs. Sandy has heard it all and taken it for what it is: a modern tragedy in which her son unfortunately played the lead. (continued...)

dash
October 12 2007, 1:45AM

Response to 'dre: -- Your statements are not supported by anything real. These kids are facing 5-25 (and I call them kids not to be sympthetic, but acknowledging that I have attained an age and perspective in which 20 years old is, most truly, a kid.)

Today Fortunato was convicted of manslaughter as a Hate Crime. He never even got close to Michael; he booked in the other direction when the first punch was thrown. The judge does not seem to be inclined toward a lenient sentence.

So we've got a kid who says he tried to stop the whole thing who's convicted, and a kid who didn't even know what went on until later. Both are found guilty. Manslaughter as a hate crime.

Where is the hate? They went there to smoke weed.

You say a couple of years behind bars and all will be fine, but there's a good chance that these two won't be out until they're 40-something. I don't know if that's justice (but then, what is justice in this case? This has been my whole point: everything is not necessarily as it seems.)

dash
October 12 2007, 2:18AM

Closing thoughts (final)…

I'm not looking to minimize Michael's death. What I'm pointing out (and the reason I felt compelled to start my posts) is that justice is not always a conviction. Neither is it vengeance, which just makes us feel better for a while. Justice simply seeks the truth. Mrs. Sandy seems to have a handle on that notion.

The responsible — albeit difficult — thing to do is to acknowledge that Michael was not acting responsibly, didn’t deserve to die, but ultimately did in some part because of his own actions. I know that hurts, but it’s true.

I hope, as Mrs. Sandy said, “that God will turn this around for good.”

“Bless the Lord, my soul, who heals the broken-hearted.” — Psalm 146

brucito
October 12 2007, 4:59AM

Dash before you close out completely please give us YOUR opinion of their defense attorney. And base it on what you have heard since you say you were not physically there.

dash
October 12 2007, 8:46AM

brucito -- Each defendant in this trial had a separate defense attorney. Fox had a gentleman named Patten (sp?) and Fortunato a gentleman named DiChiara. I think that the reality is that attorneys get to go home at the end of the day; when it's my life on the line I might not think you are providing as vigorous a defense as you think you are.

I think that the cards were stacked against the defendants. I think the prosecution out and out lied (they call it "creating scenarios" or coming up with "theories.") Both defense attorneys are seasoned, and I think both recognized the folly of complaining about the system vs. providing the best defense possible within its confines.

(continued...)

dash
October 12 2007, 9:17AM

brucito (part 2) My wife saw several missed opportunities that the defense could have exploited, but overall the jury seems to have "gotten" it nonetheless. Read carefully this Times article about the Fortunato verdict and you will get a glimpse of what I have been saying all along: the media reports what suits it, and it's often a very lazy endeavor.

After I kept reading posts here about Michael being "lured" and beaten up by 4 white boys, and how they were heartless thugs, I felt compelled to add the missing facts to the media's irresponsible version of the story, which is really a tragedy all around. To honor Michael's memory you need to understand what actually happened, not the Hollywood screenplay version of it.

My mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right." These verdicts are wrong, most especially the "hate crime" aspect of it (see the Times link, above.)

Thanks for caring about the truth.

MLee
October 12 2007, 9:38AM

Dash, murderers will say anything to save themselves. Michael Sandy is not around to tell his side of what really happened. Several times in your posts you strongly blamed Michael for his own death. That is why it is hard for me to believe your interpretation of your wife’s interpretation of what transpired in the court room. You implied that Fortunato was gay because he was on a gay web site. That is how the scum of the earth find their easy targets. Dash, are you gay because you found Keith’s web site? Or, was your sole intent was to misinform?

Derrick from Philly
October 12 2007, 9:42AM

Dash: I appreciate the time effort you put into giving us (visitors to Keith's blog) a different version of what happened that night--and a perspective that many of us have not been exposed to. (Not even on Towleroad have I read the version of events you gave us.)

But, Dash, the Michael Sandy tragedy represents much more to many of us than the personal suffering of the Sandy family--to both black gays and many white gays. The defendents represent more, they are symbols--not just unlucky boys.

There was a case in N. Carolina (or Virginia) that was the reverse of this case. A white gay man murdered by three black predators he meant on the Internet. To paraphrase the victim's mother "...if my son was black and his murderers white, then somebody might care." You and I know that these incidents often have greater meaning than the individuals involved. Unequal justice is a fact of American life, and for the most part, blacks have born the brunt of it.

Antwan
October 12 2007, 12:25PM

Wow, this turned into the killers were not the ones who did it and, the victim was to blame for his own death, an,d they valiantly tried to save him from his own suicidal wish to get away from the thugs by running into freeway traffic. Amazing, at how some try and twist the facts, Sandy is dead, they did it, and, we all know they will not do any hard time, the judge will give them a year or two at the most.

Those are the faces, and I didn't need to sit in a court room to hear them lie about how it was an accident, and they are sorry, everyone in jail says that, and, they are all innocent of the charges,

Child please, take this theory to Towleroad or someplace where they agree that these killers aren't that bad, and, don't deserve anytime and, the victim deserved what he got.

The victim always has to prove that he or she didn't deserve to die, one of the reasons, I loathe defense attorneys, always make the victim and his or her family suffer again under the guise of the law.

MLee
October 12 2007, 12:50PM

Dash, there is one hard fact in this case. A person died during the commission of a robbery. In my state no matter what the intentions of the robbers were or the cause of death, the prosecutor would have no choice but to charge everyone involve with first degree murder because the death occurred during a robbery. If a death occurred during an attack but no robbery, then the prosecutor has a lot of leeway on what to charge. First degree murder is life in prison without parole.

Kriss Nunez
October 12 2007, 2:41PM

Same in mine MLee, this is why the defense played that jury like a cheap fiddle and won, they will serve little to no time this being NYC and the dead being a black man.

Same old trash, got the money to raise the funds for a good lawyer, out you walk with a slap on the hand.

And, the thing that has irked me beyond all is some seem to fell that this young, gifted black man does not deserve justice since he was trolling for sex online. Others say he knew he was not going to get sex to begin with and it was a set up as why would those "cute" white boys want him? The Internet is rife with such trash, and, it would appear so is the justice system in NYC, where the jury was so poorly informed and uneducated, that they could not see this was a hate crime, plain and simple. These so called liberal states and their twisted sense of fairness and justice for the victim is amazing.

jazzi
October 12 2007, 3:42PM

The last thing I want to do is blame someone for their own violent death. No one deserves to die the Michael did. But we do need to be mindful of the situations we put ourselves in pursuing sex, companionship, smoke buddies, etc. Let's say dash is correct. Inspite of the intentions of all who were involved, things got out of hand very quickly. One thing led to another & now someone is dead. In the end it doesn't matter if one or more of the perps was gay, if they only planned on robbing him, or if one tried to help Michael while another one ran home. A chain of events was set in motion that lead to someone being killed. If Michael acted irresponsibly in meeting up with a stranger, than those guys were irresponsible in that they set this guy up. If Michael should have stayed home, so should they have as well.

jazzi
October 12 2007, 4:28PM

Oh, & wasn't there something in the papers about them laughing about the whole thing after it happened? The shit was funny then but now that your ass is on the line, not only do you say you were about to come out as gay to your friends but you were also a would be good samaritan? Ooook.

Dave
October 12 2007, 8:25PM

Jazzi, ironic how they were all laughing and making jokes about him being hit by a car, and, then turned into choir boys for the jury, and, the jury fell for it along with an inept prosecution who probably didn't get to admit it and a judge who didn't think it relevant, and lack of support from the gay community. I guess I'm just so old and sick and tired of young black men and thier lives meaning nothing in the eyes of the law, or other humans for that matter gay, straight or anything else, black, male and dead, and no one cares, other than the victims families, only in America.

dash
October 12 2007, 9:08PM

Once again, facts matter. I don't have time to address all comments here, but the gist is: jazzi mostly hit the nail on the head. It's manslaughter because they didn't intend it. But they were not out to rob Michael. The intent was for Fox to meet Michael, the other three to "happen to" meet up with them, smoke his pot -- which was the ENTIRE POINT OF THE SCAM -- leave, and then Fox was to say he'd changed his mind on the sex. That's not robbery, it's a stupid scam.

As for the laughing about it: THAT WAS A FABRICATION OF THE PROSECUTION. I alluded to that earlier. She said (to paraphrase) that she bet they all had a good laugh about that when they went back to Fortunato's house. They both said no, of course not, but pressed with "just answer yes or no, please" questions, they were forced to admit that they'd laughed about anything at all at any time ever after Michael's death. That's all the press needed.

I've tried to be responsible to Michael. And some will only believe what they want. Facts DO matter.

dash
October 12 2007, 9:43PM

MLee - please re-read what I actually said about the gay website. I implied Fortunato was gay because they had a stream of gay/bi men who testified to having sex with him (did you read about that anywhere, btw? why not, do you think?)

Derrick from Philly - I know, I know. And well put.

Antwan - where do I begin? At some point citizens of a supposedly civilized world have to shed intellectual laziness and do some hard thinking. In this case, I would even accept a fair reading of what I actually posted. You're the poster child for the "Don't Confuse Me With the Facts" campaign. I hope your dividends are worth it in the end.

Kriss Nunez - see above. I won't bother you with facts.

My goal was to inform, not misinform. What would my misinformation campaign get me? I have no stake in this. That so many of you right here who are following this closely don't know half of what I've posted should be EYE-OPENING to you all.

Think about it.
It's seldom as cut and dry as it's presented to be.
Think.

brucito
October 13 2007, 11:21AM

Dash thank you for the info.

Jeff
October 13 2007, 11:55AM

The laws of this country need to be streamlined and the same for all murders. In my local paper, two teenaged boys robbed a restaurant in which they had planned to do, and killed two teenaged boys working there, boys they actually went to school with, life without parole. In the same paper, a guy gets 90 years for child porn on his computer, and, these killers get a minimum of 5 years, what a joke. The kid in Florida, shown on taped being beat and stomped on, not guilty with 90 minutes deliberation from all white jury. And, they need to lose this hate crime stuff, no one on a jury seems to full grasp what that even means. And, be a black victim? Black male victim? No justice at all.

And, dash, thanks for your "facts" however, you aren't a laywer, and what you have posted is heresay, I know, you want to blame the victim and defend the killers, as is your choice, but, this long, boring litany is boring, and totally unfair, as are the putdowns of posters who don't agree with you. And, it sure isn't eyeopeni

MLee
October 13 2007, 5:09PM

Dash, I am not “hating” on you. In your latest post you said “But they were not out to rob Michael.” In an earlier post of yours you said:

“Hit and run, Michael was on the ground. Ilya rummaged through Michael’s pockets and then dragged him back off the road. He was left for dead”.

In my book that is robbery no matter what the intent was. Michael was being chased to be robbed and in the process died. Like I said previously in my state that is first degree murder.

Jeff
October 13 2007, 5:23PM

Mlee, you are wasting your time, anytime someone can come up with a reason to justify taking a life, be it to smoke pot, or rob him, you are fighting a fight that will be filled with excuses, since, if we follow that long litany of second hand reviews from the courtroom and reason why they did it and should get a lax sentence, and that Sandy asked for what he got, and its a shame that these poor lost, sexually confused boys are going to jail for a year or two for something they didn't do or mean to do.

Which is why I take all the pro defendant posts with a dash of salt. And, praise his parents for taking the high road, as I know I would not be happy with this so called conviction and the high fives the poor lost boys are giving each other, since he got what he deserved according to them and the jury.

Gregg
October 14 2007, 3:22AM

I have followed this story from the begining and read most of the comments posted. What is very obvious is that this story has broken our community's heart. My biggest disappointment is that the jury had diffculty understanding that this is a hate crime. This really concerns me. It makes me wonder if their is any hope in our society as to understanding. However I applaud the Sandy family. Forgiveness is healing. I had to forgive in my process of healing after being a victim of a hate crime myself. And I thank God every day that my siuation didn't end in my death as it did with Sandy's. May his spirit be at peace!

Brucito
October 14 2007, 9:55AM

Dash if you can answer this for me. Since it is obvious that Sandy suggested and brought drugs if they had claimed that when Sandy got out of the car he appeared crazed and they defended themselves at least two of them would have walked away free as a bird, wouldn't they?

Jeff
October 14 2007, 11:23AM

Thanks Gregg, someone who actaully gets it. All this blame the victim is just dispicable.

Ostend Street
October 14 2007, 8:22PM

Not only despicable, but insensitive, narrow, and callous. The man is dead and his family is left to grieve. At least show some kindness toward the family who may or may not read this.

dash
October 14 2007, 9:58PM

All -- I'm going to bow out after this final reply (though I've tried that before...)

Jeff - You write well, but you need to re-read. What I've posted is what's called the opposite of hearsay: these are the facts of the case as testified to in the courtroom! I've heard over and over that the guilty will say anything. These guys -- every last one -- incriminated themselves in what happened because they knew that they didn't intend for anything to happen that night other than to smoke weed. They clearly thought that would stand for something. Not choir-boys, not angels. They testified to what they did and how they hooked up with Michael.

continued…

dash
October 14 2007, 10:56PM

#2: Brucito makes a fair point: they could have concocted something but they didn't. They honestly thought that telling the truth about it would be a good thing because they meant no harm, and if they meant no harm, it should be alright. (As I say this, I speak of the three already convicted; of course we don't know what the hell happened with the fourth kid who snapped for some reason and started the disastrous chain of events. He's the only one who even hit Michael.)

Once again, closed-minded folks will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. And you cannot find one instance in which I blamed Michael for what happened. Not one. To suggest that he acted very irresponsibly is not to suggest that he caused or deserved what happened. I hope the book's closed on that one as regards my comments. Criticism is fine. Please be fair about it, though.

continued…

dashard
October 14 2007, 11:47PM

#3: MLee - I know you're not "hating on me." It's cool. You do have the cart before the horse, though. The facts presented were that there was no intent to rob or harm Michael.

Here's the scam in longer form:

Fox was to pose as the date. When Michael arrived, they were to begin smoking and the other three were going to "happen to" stumble on them, hugs and intros all around, and they were going to join the party, smoking yet more of Michael's pot. The three then leave, and Fox was to then make an excuse for bowing out of sex. Free pot. No sex. Michael goes home with a lighter stash. That was the plan.

Since the Shurov trial has not yet started, we have no idea why he wigged out. Asked why Shurov attacked Michael, the other three could only say "What the f*ck!?" No idea.

continued…

dash
October 15 2007, 12:47AM

#4: Yes, Ilya Shurov attacked and chased Michael. This does not mean that the other three were a part of that. Yes, Ilya rummaged through Michael's pockets. What does that have to do with the motives of the other three as they left Fortunato's house to rudely smoke up Michael's stash?

If Shurov is guilty of a hate crime, so be it. But if crime was never a motive for the other three, then manslaughter doesn't apply. Nor robbery. Nor hate crime. The only additional testimony that I am privvy to regarding Shurov had him drinking before all of this, where the others were straight. Otherwise, the plan -- agreed to by all -- was as paraphrased above.

continued…

dash
October 15 2007, 1:21AM

In Closing #1: Though there are plenty of online forums -- straight and gay -- discussing this case. I chose to post here because a) the facts as they were being discussed were either wrong or grossly out of context (and that's not unique to this board), and b) it seemed to be a very reasonable discussion with a regard for the truth and a loving, sympathetic tone.

There are (so far) very few who don't want to hear the facts since they believe that they've "read this book before." That attitude, however, is known as intolerance, and something I would think would be justly abhorred in these parts. Surely you know there's no shortage of discussions of this case that are hate-filled and vitriolic. In contrast, there seem to be very few on this forum who don't care about the facts, and that's admirable, especially in light of the history of injustice towards and the direct impact this case has on the gay community. One of your own was killed, you want justice. I feel your pain.

continued…

dash
October 15 2007, 2:31AM

Closing #2:
If you throw a pebble into a still pond, how does the water respond? The answer is simple: totally appropriately to the force and mass of the input, then it returns to calm. It doesn't overreact or underreact.

That is the tao of justice. The response to the crime needs to neither overreact nor underreact. Anything more or less is precisely what's known as injustice.

This community says that it wants justice. My question to one and all (and this is certainly not limited to this community or this case) is: do you really? It's so much easier to want vengeance. Jeff is a perfect example. But let's not say we want justice when we merely want someone — anyone — to pay. To truly seek justice is to need to know the details. To truly seek justice is to set aside your biases and respond appropriately to the crime — no more, no less.

continued…

dash
October 15 2007, 3:05AM

Closing #3: Is it justice for the recent defendants to go away for life? Perhaps. But not likely by the guideline I just described as applied to the facts of the case.

My goal was to provide those details as they came out of the courtroom. Unfiltered. Just notes of testimony, not "descriptions" of it.

As a general aside: the only good reason to take part in a discussion is to try to add somthing worthwhile and valuable to it. There are several commenters on this thread who have ears but don't hear, and eyes but don't see. (Yeah. I know. Blah blah blah...)

My words on this forum are plain for all to see and still they're being
manipulated right here and now. Try going on trial for your life and convince folks who have similar ears and eyes.

continued…

brucito
October 15 2007, 5:05AM

Dash once again thanks for responding. My best bet is the russian is going to claim Michael grabbed his crotch and he freaked out. After reading what you have posted I don't see any of them serving out their full sentences. This sounds more like a political conviction than a judicial conviction. Gay internet site, drugs, prior convictions on one of the defendants, an immigrant, a dead gay negro involved too means that the judge, attorneys and jury really don't give a shit one way or the other.

dash
October 15 2007, 5:25AM

Rest in peace, Michael Sandy. May the choirs of angels come to greet you, may they lead you to paradise. May the Lord enfold you in his mercy, and may you find eternal life. (And to my atheist friends -- my apologies.)

Thanks for being kind hosts to a straight guy who wanted to shed some light. Bye, all.

Jeff
October 15 2007, 10:07AM

Good bye indeed, your third hand account via your wife does not represent the facts, its hearsay, and, sorry, your vilification of the victim show you weren't here to show respect for the Sandy family.

And, I for one read quite well, and, saw nothing but excuses as to why the killers should not have got convicted.

Give me a break, and, lets hope you are never in the shoes of victim, I doubt if your "impartiality" and the dryness of the "facts" can heal the hurt and pain. All those posts could have been summed up in one, you don't think they did anything wrong and Sandy was killed due to his own actions.

Amanda
October 15 2007, 4:21PM

Wow Dash - so you were a witness, you were there and knew EXACTLY what Mike was thinking AND what his attackers were thinking!! So why is it, I wonder, that you were not asked to testify at the trial?

OR perhaps, this is all conjecture and assumptions, and you're so convinced that your PERCEPTION of what happened is correct that you are passing it off as indisputable fact.

And PLEEEEASE dont pass this off as "oh im just a straight guy speaking his mind". I don't care who OR what you are - the fact remains you were not there, you did not know Mike OR his attackers, and your entire opinion is based off of what lawyers who are being PAID to defend someone have produced in testimony.

Andy
October 15 2007, 7:59PM

I hear you Amanda, and, after hearing the real JURORS speak out this past weekend, and, how some of them felt as one of them said "a lot of sympathy" for Fortunato and his "confusion", they showed they were not capable of being on a juror, and that for his crime of murder happened to a "good kid," so, the verdict is a joke, but, as with all things in this country, part of the game and the victim is to blame for what happened to him or her.

Amanda
October 16 2007, 8:32AM

Agreed Andy - but what REALLY bugs me is the double standard. If Mike was a woman, and a bunch of men, in public or on a jury, started throwing out absurd statements placing the blame on her - there would be absolute OUTRAGE - I can only imagine the letters the NYT would have recieved if they published those statements from the jury forman about a straight female victim. But because he was a gay man, everyone just sort of goes with it - ohhh yeah, he was a gay guy looking for sex - he MUST have been asking for this to happen.

Gregg
October 17 2007, 6:23AM

Thank you Jeff. I agree. Good bye Dash!

Jas
October 17 2007, 2:49PM

Dash: You can state the facts how you want, and tell us what the chat room conversations said, HOWEVER you said the victim arrived and saw four of them and left. He went back home and got on the chat in which the perpetrator found him online again. YOU DO NOT KNOW how their plan changed from the initial chat. The four white boys standing and talking could have devised a plan to kill this young BLACK GAY man while awaiting his arrival. This was a planned attack on BLACK GAY MAN. If one of the guys was really trying to stop the attack, trust me he could have. The only part i believe that was not part of their plan is him running into traffic.

Dash, what is your sexuality and race??

dash
November 5 2007, 8:41AM

While it seems that everyone has moved on from this case (after having taken a last few pot shots at me) I thought you might find revealing the New York Magazine article that was written by Robert Kolker, who, like my wife, also spent every day in the courtroom and whose account of the details, perhaps, you will believe.

Or perhaps you'll malign his good intentions as well.
Open minded or closed? It's up to you.

http://nymag.com/news/features/40296/

And, quickly:

Amanda: the fact remains you were not there, you did not know Mike OR his attackers, and your entire opinion is based off of what lawyers who are being PAID to defend someone have produced in testimony.

Trial convictions are based on the same thing, no?

Jas: Dash, what is your sexuality and race??

Puerto Rican/Italian Male. Why in the world would that matter?

Check out the article if you're interested in this case.

MLee
November 5 2007, 5:15PM

Dash, Amanda was Mike’s white friend. She also worked with Mike.

dash
November 6 2007, 3:52AM

MLee, I didn't say anything to disrespect. Just pointing out a fallacy in Amanda's line of thinking.

I suppose I'm just feeling a bit burned by the folks who piled on at the end. It's a funny thing to have your motives questioned when you know full well what they are and aren't. And it actually says more about them than about me.

As I stated when I first started posting, my only goal was to get out the story that was unfolding from the courtroom, which was vastly different from what was being reported.

Amanda's 10/15 post suggests my posts are all conjecture (more accuses, actually). This really gets to the heart of the matter: I understand emotion. I have offered nothing but sympathy for Michael and his friends. I started my very first post with that. But to willingly choose to ignore the facts is frightening.

Read the NY Magazine article, then tell me that I posted without due diligence.

And then flame away, if it makes you feel better.

fulltiltpoker
November 13 2007, 1:51AM

http://fulltiltpoker.lookera.net

ALIZA
November 21 2007, 5:20AM

http://spirit-airline6608.lookera.net

Upyachka
December 7 2007, 7:22PM

http://www.sotawesip.com/xmas/christmas-decorated-tree.html

Quinn
December 17 2007, 4:19AM

http://fusionup.info/en/pbs-sprout.html

funbrain games
December 18 2007, 9:53PM

http://zaebem.info/sugar/40094.html

new rock music hits
December 19 2007, 3:48AM

http://users4.nofeehost.com/bober/music/74336.html