The Boxer Rebellion
By Keith Boykin, in pop culture·race
Thursday, August 30 2007, 11:59AM
One day last summer I was walking home from the gym in Harlem when I noticed a young shirtless man walking slowly in front of me. He was walking with the familiar side-to-side swagger of young men in hip hop as I followed far behind. By the time I approached him, I realized the reason he was walking so slowly. His pants were sagging so far down that the full length of his boxer shorts were exposed. He must have heard my footsteps as I approached from behind because he turned around just as I got closer. He scowled a look that could kill, pulled up his pants and then stood on the edge of the sidewalk until I walked by.
What was that all about? If you're going to walk around half naked in the streets, don't get offended when people stare at you like you're crazy. And as much as I appreciate the right of all people to dress the way they want, I have to be honest. I certainly would not want my kids to dress like thugs, and I'm glad that my two teenage godsons don't. I once had a prospective intern (who I later hired) who dressed this way to his job interview with me, and I had to warn him that he would never get a job in most places dressed like a thug. But having said all that, I am still troubled by the new trend, reported in today's New York Times, of cities that are outlawing sagging pants.
Since June of this year, sagging pants have been against the law in Delcambre, Louisiana, a small town of 2,231 that is 80 miles from Baton Rouge. The fine for violators is as much as $500 or up to a six-month sentence. A new law in Mansfield, another small Louisiana town, will fine violators as much as $150 or up to 15 days in jail. And they're not alone. Other cities and states are considering laws to ban sagging pants as well.
As much as I hate this sartorial style, I cannot support a law that sends young people to jail just because of what they wear. And let's be truthful. The people who will be going to jail will mostly be young black and Latino men, the very people who are already overcrowding the nation's penal system, many of them for petty and harmless offenses.
Nor does it matter to me that some of the officials sponsoring these laws are black themselves. Older, well established black people can be some of the most socially conservative people around. And this issue, no matter how much I dislike it, is not the biggest threat to black America. But try telling that to Atlanta Councilman C. T. Martin, who last week sponsored an amendment to the city’s indecency laws to ban sagging pants, which he called an epidemic.
Martin describes the problem as a vestige of the "prison mentality" in the community, and that may be true. Some experts argue that urban youth started the trend to mimic the style of dress of inmates who are not allowed to wear belts because they can be used for weapons. Others, like Larry Harris, a 28-year-old musician from Miami, deny that prison style inspire their fashion choices. Standing in Times Square with "oversize gear," Harris told the New York Times, “I think what you have here is people who don’t understand the language of hip-hop."
I don't always agree with Benjamin Chavis, but I do agree with what he told the Times about this trend. “The focus should be on cleaning up the social conditions that the sagging pants comes out of,” he said. "That they wear their pants the way they do is a statement of the reality that they’re struggling with on a day-to-day basis."
I think he's right. I see this trend everyday in Harlem. I don't like it, but I don't want to criminalize it either. This is really an issue for parents, families and the community to resolve. It's not for the police to settle.
Comments conceal
Kyon Saucier
August 30 2007, 12:25PM
I agree with you Keith but I will say this:
It is a style of dress that younger generations (mine included) wear. Yeah some folkz sag way to deep, and some folkz pants is just too baggy, but saggin is about a youthful statement. No different to me than bell bottoms, parachute pants, kangols, afros, Michael Jackson Thriller Jackets, and jheri curls all of those African American fashions and trends evident in the 70's and 80's. I mean really we as Black and Latino people have so much more to worry about. It's just clothes! Really it's just clothes! (Plus I don' mind if a fine man saggs, it gives me a better view of his ass!)
For Real Though it is just clothes! Black folkz sometimes we have such fucked priorities about what is important. Saggin is a dumb issue, can we talk about HIV in our community, the lack of employment gainful or otherwise, how about education, or enviromental racism? No we have to talk about and pass laws against saggin? Give me a fuckin' break!
Ostend Street
August 30 2007, 12:30PM
Keith, you mentioned boxers; however, I have seen these guys with sagging pants showing thir briefs and down in the Village I have seen sagging pants with no underwear (or thong)on at all. But, my point is not to criticize the style, but I wonder just how far are we going to legislate what a person wears. No, I don't care for the sagging drawers showing style, but young people since the beginning of time have had styles that the "older folks" didn't like. Unfortunately, I really don't have a solution because I came from the platform shoes, huge Afro, beads around the neck, leather bag over the shoulder, let it all hang out era and I really didn't want my parents or anyone else telling me what to wear. I guess the question is where do we draw the line and should we? It is so easy to sit back and criticize. I agree with Mr. Chavis -- let's clean up the social conditions that are the cause of young people wanting to show their behinds.
Darius
August 30 2007, 12:52PM
I love saggin' and I like guys who do it (exactly what Kyon said -- a better view of the ass). I'm surprised you don't like it Keith but I guess all that time in the Hamptons will take its toll on anybody! :)
Moogbass
August 30 2007, 1:29PM
Want to get them to stop? Tell them how Homoerotic it is! It's hard to believe they are hanging out (literally) with friends on the streets with their butts and fronts in clear view, and don't realize this aspect. I too, agree with Kyon. Makes for a real nice view sometimes on the right man. It's just clothes--their bad/immature attitudes are the bigger problem with some of these kids.
MARK
August 30 2007, 1:31PM
I JUST WANNA SAY TO ALL THOSE YOUNG MEN, 18 AND OVER, WEARING THE SAG WITH THOSE CLEAN, SEXY ASS DRAWERS, ASS HANGING ALL OUT AND SHIT, I JUST WANNA SAY... THANK YOU, FOR THE VIEW...MAY HEAVEN SHINE UPON YOUR ASS EVERYTIME I'M BEHIND IT. KEEP ON KEEPING ON>
bubba
August 30 2007, 1:39PM
Interesting, Keith. You don't want to penalize the perpetrators' tacky sense of fashion with incarceration, but you don't give them a sense of disapproval by maintaining your standards either. I never would have hired that intern who showed up looking pitiful. You had a chance to plant some common sense into a young mind and let it go by. Are you telling me no better prepared candidate was qualified to pour your coffee? Or did it not matter because you weren't paying him? Maybe he was just gorgeous. See, I'm someone who has been dressing for success in job interviews for far too long now, and I still can't get a break. I truly HATE this arrogant style. It's the antithesis of tight and tailored, meant to represent the style of a "man" who could never be gay, and unconcerned with the signals he sends out. What is Chavis talking about? How is this fashion indicative of struggle? The struggle to stop killing each other? The 70s and 80s styles mentioned before were about fun and pride. There's no comparison.
Blue
August 30 2007, 2:06PM
It's fashion ... there were things we did in the early 90s (one strap undone on the bibs, etc.) that my parents hated. I did it, it was a fad, and I got over it. I think entirely way too much thought is being put into the whole thing. I don't necessarily like it, but it hardly makes my skin crawl either. And anytime you start putting laws into place governing what folks where, we (blacks) are always going to be the targets. While I see your point, I don't think it's all that serious, personally. I know plenty of preppy, Lacoste wearing queens who are fucked up as hell - while my pant-sagging cousin is an A student. It's all relative.
bubba
August 30 2007, 2:14PM
I don't know what "view of the ass" the rest of you are referring to, because half the time these guys have no ass to speak of. Or the boxers are equally as baggy as the pants, as the picture above demonstrates. If it's "just clothes," then by all means go out into the world trying to get a job or a home looking like that. I find no sex appeal in this look, as it's usually combined with a du rag, a t-shirt 3 sizes too big, and a loud/inarticulate mouth. It's simply time to switch up the style. This shit has become a staple of Black men's fashion, and why? Bell bottoms nor Jheri curls lasted this long.
reality_check
August 30 2007, 2:24PM
I dont understand the logic in these municipalities that ban sagging pants. My question is this: is it legal for someone to walk around town wearing swim trunks or speedos? If yes, then this truly is backwards logic. I, for one, am no advocate of sagging pants. BUt it is definitely a slippery slope when we allow the government to outlaw fashion.
Kyon Saucier
August 30 2007, 2:25PM
So are you saying Buba that all people who sag are murdererous and arrogant? 'Cause I'm not. I never have been any of those things(well some folkz used say I thought I was better cause I'm bilingual but that aint the same)and while my pants don't hang past my knees ('cause you can't really run like that and sometimes you have to run from stuff like doggs, psychopaths, ugly men, or to a phyne one...)they do rest comfortably on the middle of my ass. I mean a man can sagg and be intelligent, successful, law abiding, moral, kind,all that. Sometimes I think we are really prepared to think worst of our own quicker than the White People will. A thuggish or thugged out look doesn't make the person wearing the clothes a thug any more than a three peice suit makes someone rich,sophisticated, or intelligent. It just means they have on what they have on. I just on the real think we have more important issues than who is wearing what. Unify first talk about bad fashion sense or generational style later!!
Saditty
August 30 2007, 2:27PM
Ummm, I seee were keith is coming from. I actually live on the "Urban" side of town myself, and i think its so funny when i get looked at with crazy looks as a young black man wearing fitted aeropastle shirts and flip flops. Its the flip on my side of town.
J
August 30 2007, 2:30PM
Banning it is ridiculous and it won't happen, but at the same time I hate that crap on anyone who's NOT a teen.
I'm sorry, but once you're on a college campus and preparing for the future it's time to put all that away. Be a damn man and pull your pants up.
It's bigger than style. Way back when...people knew there was a time and place for certain things and people also actually had these wonderful things called identities. Now everywhere I look I see hip hop clones riding this prison inspired crap and being proud vultures.
Antwan
August 30 2007, 2:34PM
I don't think that bad taste and lack of home training in this case should be outlawed or legislated, since the crime rate in the areas where these fashion victims live is probably though the roof. And if they are going to, will they also stop women from wearing undergarments as tops and the like? Both are cheesy and low class IMO. I don't get it and I guess they don't either since I also guess they don't have jobs and certainly no future in this country dressed like clowns.
This is yet another case of black folks trying to be "unique" and coming off as buffoons. But as usual, some black folks will defend this lack of taste like they are doing with M. Vick and his killing of dogs.
And, isn't this code language in jail that you are "available?" To be a young black male these days is just to be pitied with the lack of knowledge they have and lack of self esteem.
MidwestGuy
August 30 2007, 2:44PM
Legislation against certain styles of dress? You're kidding me right? Wow, do we not have our priorities in the worst of places.
I do not allow my son to dress like those guys on the splash page. He has tried and dad is always there to correct it. I buy his clothes so I know what's the correct size for him. There is a such thing as being allowed to express yourself--even as a teen. However, I'm the parent, not the lawmaker.
Bubba, I'm going out on a limb and suggest that after Keith hired the intern, he never came to work w/sagging pants again. I would assume that in his subsequent interviews, he knew what was appropriate attire.
Instead of throwing him out with the trash like you would have done, Keith reached out to him and steered his path. BRAVO KEITH! We need more of that!!!
There is something erotic about seeing some of it though. Then again, I love asses so I'm biased.
If straight men can get excited about seeing a woman in a thong or a mini-skirt then.....
YellaDerrickfromPhilly
August 30 2007, 2:53PM
Oh My Lord! I'm actually agreeing with Bubba and J on an issue.
I really don't care what the young'uns do with their appearance while they're young, but what about when you have to go look for a job, or go to one of the fifty'leven funerals we have every week for some young guy who kept his pants hangin' off his narrow...
Maybe I'm just old...but...Oh, well, as long as the young "trade" dresses baggy like that, they'll never get this ol' queen to take them to the automatic teller machine...no, baby, not when y'all walkin' around lookin' like Buckwheat and Alfalfa and them.
Black woman
August 30 2007, 2:55PM
I'm a straight woman in my mid thirties. I'm sorry but I'll guess I'll have to be the wayward voice. I HATE this fashion trend. These youngins looks like stank on stank. It's a shame. The problem with this trend is these fools show up at job fairs lookin' like this. It's just unacceptable and inappropriate to leave the house like that. This is a freedom of speech issue to me. Yes, you have the right to come out of the house lookin' nasty and dressing obscene. But I also have the right to do something about it.
chris-leo
August 30 2007, 3:06PM
this legislation is a bit puzzling, considering that technically, these guys are completely dressed.
there is fabric covering their asses.
people just love to feign panic and fake outrage. i remember when we wore our clothes inside out for about a year. about five years later, kids were wearing clothes backward. if you can't experiment with fashion as a kid, when can you??
young people are always going to push the envelope of fashion, particularly black teenagers... designers are going to steal the ideas... some variation winds up on a runway in milan... suddenly it's genius.
as for getting a job, my parents drummed "speak well" "make eye contact" and "dress for success" into my head, ad nauseum... "'cause you never know who's going to give you your next job." then one day i looked up and the people who didn't speak well, wore shades and didn't dress for "success" were running the entertainment industry and appearing on the Forbes List. cover your genitalia and WEAR WHAT YOU WANT.
Jena 6
August 30 2007, 3:13PM
Off topic but:
Can you blog on the Jena 6?
Here's a link with some info on contact information to pressure people to cover the issue more:
http://community.livejournal.com/blackfolk/5248007.html
September 20 is the trail for Mychael Bell.
pc
August 30 2007, 3:19PM
J, i agree that they're all clones without individuality. it's like a uniform. kinda ridiculous to see some of them walking around holding up the pants because they'll be around their ankles if not.
if the oversized shirts cover the boxers completely, are they still illegal? if the shirt covered it and a strong wind exposed the sagging, is that illegal? the laws will likely get struck down when seriously challenged.
Deacon
August 30 2007, 3:37PM
I'm from the era of Kangols, bomber jackets, Lee's shelltoe adidas, sheep skin coats, name buckled belts, acid washed jeans and when every B-Boy sported every flavoed BVD t-shirt there was, like you Keith I'm not for legistlating what a person can wear or how they can wear it. I don't think there's anything you could say to guys who want to dress with their pants sagging off their ass to get them to pull them up, as long as there's a culture that's accepting of that style of dress it will not change, it's not until they step outside that culture into one that's not accepting of they style of dress will they change. What's interesting is the fact most of the guy guys who wetre there pants like that know where it came from but refuse to admitt it, why any staright man wants to walk around in public showing off his ass when it means he gives it up is beyond my understanding, the style is so GAY!!!!!!!!
bubba
August 30 2007, 3:47PM
Okay, Kyon. Intelligence certainly has nothing to do with sagging pants, but you better believe it does shed some light on where your head is at in many ways. That being said, where do you work? I'd like to know how you get by in the world with that fashion sense. It's the same thing I'd wonder about many people who stray from conventional style with piercings, tattoos, etc. It seems you can only find hipster white boys in Brooklyn. They sure as hell don't bring their ultra tight skinny jeans to Harlem. Outside of designated comfort zones where everyone else is just like you, where can you expect to be a bold dresser without social reprisal? Is every one of these boxer baring guys going into the entertainment business, Chris-Leo? I don't think that world is the standard bearer for our country's professional attire. Not even casual Friday is that out of control.
J
August 30 2007, 3:54PM
The sagging thing has nothing to do with manly affection in the pen.
Inmates couldn't have belts so they walked around looking like babies with full diapers and someone decided it would be so damn cool to walk the streets as a free man looking like that.
cmoney
August 30 2007, 4:34PM
Sagging pants should only be worn WITHOUT underwear! I'm sick of these yungin's teasing me with those pretty round asses! I'm getting too old for this torture :-) Really, they look like idiots but this should not be legislated. I remember when people with Loks were considered nasty and unseemly and got dirty looks. Then it became fashionable and now you even see professionals in court and hospitals with braids and loks. I hope I never see a doctor with his pants sagging, but I think that any attempt to legislate away this bad fashion trend is just a pretext for rounding up young Black men. The cops will have just another reason to stop and harass young people. That's ALL this is about.
qtmia
August 30 2007, 4:36PM
THIS CODE OF DRESS IS SOOO DISGUSTING, LOW-LIFE, LOW CLASS AND GHETTO!!!
THIS CODE OF DRESS MAKES MY SKIN CRAWL!!!
Kyon Saucier
August 30 2007, 4:46PM
Where do I work? I don't work...Man why would I do that? I collect welfare checks, sell weed on da block, an' robb people when my weed sales don't put enough food on da table fo' my 18 illegitimate kids.
No I work for an International timeshare/travel agency in their financial department if you must know. And on casual days we get to sag. So I mean my head has got to be someplace, if not at least on my shoulders.
Like I said clothes don't make the man. I dunno I just think if you judge folkz by the way they dress you miss out. Plus coming from a race of people that back in the old countries depending on what zone of Africa your ancestors lived wore some pretty far out stuff, from billowing boubous, to hijab, to raffia skirts, kente, mud cloth, masks, loin cloths, animal skins, to damn near nothing...I dunno I find the conversation extremely ironic.
Karmatic
August 30 2007, 4:47PM
The comments here are very amusing (lol),and I would have to agree with most of them..However, I must admit that I've become indifferent to this issue. It's to the point where I just don't pay attention to young jackasses who walk around looking like a pile of shit is sitting in their jeans...
nuff said...
MidwestGuy
August 30 2007, 4:52PM
Until 5 or so years ago, wearing your hair in locs or conrows was considered inappropriate for the workplace. That has now changed. It had nothing to do w/the intellect nor the missing link in your head. It was a style.
I think we are blurring pants which hang well below the ass w/pants that are not up on the waist. I'm tall and hate the idea of pants riding at my waist--hate it. When I'm not at work, I don't wear a belt and they do hang. I am certain that the overwhelming majority of those who sag their pants do not look that way while at work.
I hate the idea of men wearing flip-flops. It's a style.
I hate to see gay men wear smedium shirts and tight pants. It's a style.
There was nothing cute about the tight-fitting belbottoms of the 70's era. It was a style.
Ed Bradley wore an earring. It was a style.
Is society now concerned about black men getting jobs? I doubt it.
These laws are counterintuitive.
Some people are disgusted by how two gay men
charles
August 30 2007, 5:06PM
I think they should let those thugs wear their pants as low as they like. It makes it easier for the police to catch them when they try to run away from a crime scene.
alicia banks
August 30 2007, 5:06PM
thanks keith!!!
i teach my students that sagging is looking like an inmate.
sagging originated in prison!
belts were taken to avoid being used as weapons or tools of suicideetc...
in addition to being lewd and ugly, it is just ignorant to want to look like a prisoner!
i daily see bm fools walking with one hand fully occupied just holding their pants up...how annoying!!!
peace
ab
bubba
August 30 2007, 5:13PM
Yes, Kyon, there's lots of irony in referencing styles of African culture when Black Americans are choosing to dress like Prison inmates! Did our forefathers across the ocean wear their disenfranchisement so proudly? I wish I could see the jock straps, thongs & bras on prominent display at your company...
Kyon
August 30 2007, 5:23PM
Okay I'll set up a time for you to show up it's every Friday.
LaRufus
August 30 2007, 6:42PM
Baggy, sloppy pants, drawers hanging out, gold teeth, earrings that only a drag queen would want to wear, no offense to drag queens intended, but, I just don't get why this is emulated by young men, but, I'm over 40 and have no real desire to find out. But, these politicos would do better to fight crime and clean up cities, but, that's something they don't care about. I do however feel that this "look" should be banned in school. And, I wonder if its only black kids who will be busted, since I've seen silly white and Latino boys with that insisped look.
And, didn't Vick only apologize AFTER he copped his plea? He was pretty quit up until then I recall.
@Charles, I wonder if they know that by this look, they are standing out for the popo to be questioned on any crime committed? Like the other poster sad, just a sad state young black folks are in.
Chavis? I wonder how much he was paid for his input, he is just wrong on so many levels.
MidwestGuy
August 30 2007, 8:15PM
Kyon, don't worry about these old, hateful, gays. The same people on here who will consider you 'less than' based on what you choose to wear, are the same ones who will protest against those who criticize them for who they choose to like. They have no problem cruising parks, bathrooms, bathouses, online for sex.
Yet they have the nerve to point the finger at someone else for doing things they consider distasteful. Instead of criticizing you for how you choose to dress, they should be criticizing themselves and their friends for their complicity in the spread of HIV. If you want to be disgusted and be judgmental about something, start there!
Michael Whitley
August 30 2007, 8:20PM
Understandably, a disagreement in dress is nothing new from those not liking Elvis Presley shake his hips on TV or blacks to date white. What i find offensive is the blunt attack on black culture, why agree with this when back in the day Jazz was considered vulgar so who was R&B and recently rap.
I agree with Kylon or whatever, maybe Boykin is spending too much time in the Hamptons promoting eltist values that he contradicted at least five of his articles this year about race and culture.
what this really is an attack on young black culture. why disagree with "nappy headed hoes" and then not defend the obvious inconvenince of young black males getting fined.
Mark
August 30 2007, 8:59PM
I don't get it and would be scared half to death to ask one of them why they are running around in, but let the police get them out of those hideous thug wear with a ticket. The don't have the family support they need as I don't see any parent allowing a kid to roam the streets like that and the so called community is afraid of them as well since most are nothing but thugs.
And since when is shoing your pants "black culture?" Ghetto culture yes, but, sorry, this black man does not follow ghetto trends. I wonder how many of these kids even go to school or can read the label on those under shorts, not many.
Meyamo
August 30 2007, 9:10PM
Is it just me? Or does Keith Boykin have too much time on his hands to be so superficially judgemental about something that has no impact on his life.
Watch out, Boykin - someone might say that you look too much like an uptight white man with the way you dress. And then where would you be?
Find something important to be concerned about, OK?
MidwestGuy
August 30 2007, 9:12PM
Now people who wear sagging pants are illiterate and don't attend school.
Gay people are possessed with the spirit of the devil and probably can't relate to being a real man.
deluge
August 30 2007, 9:15PM
I remember when my brother was 16 or so and i saw him after many months. He lived with his father but as a child i was responsible for his rearing. He came over to hug me and as i embraced him, i reached over and pulled his pants up and said "that's why they call this the waist". He smiled and said "OK". Being the older brother you have to lead by example and know how to talk to people, all people. My brother just graduated high school, and I could not be prouder. To this day I have not seen his pants falling off his @ss again. That could mean maybe he does it when I am not around and if so, i appreciate the respect. The saggy pants phenomena is tacky in my opinion and certainly lewd in many respects. With that being said do not know if they should be fined, it takes some of the "creativity" out of trends. If we are giving out fines for tacky fashions can we please add MEN WEARING LARGE JACKIE O SHADES to that list
Nyah Molineaux
August 30 2007, 9:28PM
Midwest Guy: If we are so possessed with the spirit of the devil, why are you on this website? And I never known being a real man involved wearing pants that hang off your ass. Yes being a real man does not involve taking responsibility, working to earn a honest day pay, or generally being a productive person.
Meyamo: And when since is wearing pants and clothes that fit means being a white person? SMH.
bubba
August 30 2007, 9:42PM
MidwestGuy, thanks for giving us topics to focus on OTHER THAN the one Keith wrote about for this occasion. You have a lot of fucking nerve coming around here suggesting that others are complicit in the spread of HIV just because you can't keep yourself focused on the subject at hand. If Keith wanted a discussion on that, he would have started one. Funny how everyone against this trend is problematic for you, but you're the one going on about patrolling every inch of fabric your child wears. You would compare a fashion trend with a direct link to misplaced values in the Black community with cruising for sex, but that cruising can almost always be done discreetly. How does that compare with brash ventilation for your ass? Both are tacky, so what the hell is your point? As far as this being an attack on Black culture, obviously some of us think this hypermasculine aesthetic is inherently wired in our heads. For them, I guess Obama won't be Black enough until we can see his boxers on a regular basis.
Mark
August 30 2007, 10:45PM
Midwestguy, sorry, but, we can't all relate to baggy pants and inner city behavior. Does not make me any less gay than you because I don't embrace that sort of lifestyle or approve of it as a way for young black men to get ahead and make in a society that still refuses to give them a fair break. Just like most, I too fall into the fear of that kind of young man, wrong yes, but, I would rather be wrong than assaulted and mugged by one of them.
Real men don't walk around with thier pants hanging down to thier knees, only wanna be thugs. But, the issue is far bigger and has nopthing to do with same gender loving men like myself, real men are also around as Dad's to show thier sons how to be men, and not allow rap "stars" and other street ways to raise them.
shanna
August 30 2007, 11:33PM
I am one of those "young ones" and it's probably my generation you're speaking of but I think it's out of control (not out of control enough to criminalize it).
I see guys with pants sagging so low they're hitting their knees and what do they do when they catch someone looking at their butt? THEY PULL THEIR SHIRTS DOWN!! What kind of backwards thinking is that?
I don't think it's just about going on a job interview. It's about how you want to be perceived in every way. Also there's nothing wrong with a little sag but down to your knees or to the point where I see more of your underwear than your pants then it's a problem.
But still it's not like they're throwing a bunh of punk white kids in jail saying their piercings and dark clothes encourage bondage, so how can you criminalize what people wear.
LarryLy
August 30 2007, 11:34PM
I'm a PhD candidate at Princeton University and I sag my jeans. The notion that sagging indicates that one is lacking in intelligence, refinement or home training is ridiculous (if not assimilationist).
Let's not forget the history of jeans in America. Since World War II, jeans have been the sartorial touchstone of working class identity. In the 1950s, wearing blue jeans was symbolic of protest against conformity (until they became less politicized and more socially accepted in the 1970s). In turn, we might want to understand the sagging of jeans as hip-hop's reappropriation the jean and reanimation of its politics of resistance. In addition to the durability that made it indispensible for working class laborers, sagging the jean goes on to serve as a direct affront to Puritanical and Victorian standards of modesty and respectability. Sagging has always struck me as a very classed means of telling America to kiss your ass.
LarryLy
August 31 2007, 12:11AM
And then there's the black thing. For a people who have a history of being imaged as possessing voracious sexual appetites and mythically powerful genitalia, sagging takes on ever more meaning. It announces that there's only a thin stretch of cotton separating you (the white patriarchal power structure) from the emphatically sexed body that simultaneously repulses and enchants you. In this way, sagging revises the social politics of jeans... It insists that I will not allow my sexuality to be masked or muted by the thick durable fabric that I need to accomplish the labor that fulfills/determines my class position. Further, your apprehensions about said sexuality, your baseless stereotyping will only cause me to flaunt it evermore for your (homo)erotic gaze.
So, for those of you who missed it... Yes, there is a firm and resonant politics of resistance that inheres sagging your jeans as a black man in america, particularly if you have roots in urban and/or working class communities.
Diamante
August 31 2007, 12:54AM
I am 26 years old. I remember every since middle school saggin was the trend. I personally feel it is tacky, but I don't think there should be laws banning saggin. if you are going to play the role as the fashion police, you may as well give Donald Trump a ticket for that ugly toupee he wearsI mean, just like some other people said, we have more things to worry about in our community like the HIV epidemic, the high abortion rate among blacks, unemployement and other hot topic issues. Now, I have personally seen people go to job interviews and even sag while they are on the job. I remember seeing a guy who was saggin, had a grill in his mouth while working at Taco Bell! If I was the manager on duty, either two things would have happened....either he would have not been hired or he would have been fired on the spot. There is a time and a place for everything, and you dont go to work dressed as if you are going to the club! But its their parents falut for not raising them to know better!
Liquid Fonts
August 31 2007, 1:24AM
If they're going to ban the baggy jeans then they also need to ban those Virginia-SuperSlim-Thight-Hip and Ankle-Huggie-Pants that some men wear. The ones that look like denim tights w/o the stirrups on a dude. It's just not right.
kevin
August 31 2007, 1:56AM
Why is it anyones business. Thats what wrong the world. Always worried about the wrong issues.
Stop judging.
People need health care. But sanging MUST STOP! come on. To each its own. Sanging is so trivial.
So what some does not like what they MIND YOUR BUSINESS!!!
Like my grandmother used to say "tenna yo business"
If I want to sang then it's my life. When at work I don't sang. But if I'm in "the land of the free" then how does sanging hurt anyone.
People mind your business.
Please.
nhlanhla-South Africa
August 31 2007, 5:02AM
Once I joked that, the one way to know if a black boy is gay in the US is when they have the right sized pants, placed at the 'right' spot. It's still funny when gay or black men become conformists, like Kyon said. Unfortunately though, whether we like it or not, we are always judged and discriminated based on how we look. As much as the revolution always happens, 'over time', I don't think it's not sensible to always use personal judgement about when a statement will actually f..k you over and when it will advance your interests. If you stand to lose a job (that you like)
from showing off your briefs, then you may need some life skills. Otherwise go ahead make everyone speak and understand your language... when you can. Personally I like some talk about sex, sometimes.
J
August 31 2007, 7:42AM
I don't think comparing sagging to locs and braids is appropriate. Locks have been a major part of many cultures for centuries and the ties to spirituality make comparing it to this convict garbage an insult. Forget the idiots that think it's puff puff pass or the dirty white people that chant that nu metal bs, and braids of course have as much history. Sagging is not about expression or culture unless every black man needs to show the world their inner convict. It's time to move on, and it seems like people may part with their precious sagging soon. Until then many of us will have to deal with the homeless-looking, convict-styled Homey the clown attire and hope the grown ass men in it will wake up. Whoever mentioned the granny Sunday service earrings that the "thugs" rock is on point. OMG, why? WHY? These are the same cats yelling "fag." Do I support a ban? Again, no.
Mikey-He Likes It
August 31 2007, 9:09AM
A law banning sagging is absurd. That should not happen. And sagging has nothing to do with your intellect either. I just think it's a very negative image. Plain and simple. If I want to see your butt and underwear then that should be when we're taking off our clothes to get busy. To me it's just like seeing young females with low rise pants and their thongs/cracks showing. The worse part is that they think this look is ok under any setting.
MidwestGuy
August 31 2007, 9:34AM
Nyah the debate on what makes a real man will go on 4ver. Point is, we are no more correct in determining mnhood based on style than those who question our mnhd based on who we like.
Bubba, lose the emotions. I clearly stated that you have(gays) the nerve to criticize a style when you(gays) don't criticize each other for your complicity in the spread of HIV. That wasn't a change the dicussion statement. It was a gays have nerve to judge thisone. Don't bark too loudly.
If I didn't have a problem w/the trend I would allow my son to dress that way. Know the difference.
You compared a fashion trend w/a lack of intellect and manhood. And I'm wrong for my comparison?
Are gay men who wear tight pants asking to be fckd in the ass? Ridiculous hunh?
If you wanna focus on what Keith said. KEITH checked an intern on his sagging pants and then hired him. Apparently, Keith didn't judge his intellect or manhood by his style.
J, sagging is much an expression as booty-tight pants are on gay men.
Vanilla Snow
August 31 2007, 10:16AM
Midwest Troll back here spewing his self loathing against himself and other gay men. Threadjacking is his forte. I'm sure all of us love to read his sanctimonious all knowing posts. Yes Midwest Troll please tell us more about yourself and how pitiful we are when compared against you. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
As for the topic at hand, if the young men wish to dress like Prison Punks and show their ass then that is clearly their right to do so. I love looking at their asses. However if society at large considers them to BE Prison Punks, well they have no one to blame but themselves.
Midwest Troll's douchebag response in 5...4...3...2...1
J
August 31 2007, 10:53AM
"Booty-tight" makes a hell of a lot more sense than dragging around 40 pounds of extra material or walking like a damn penguin and those of you who appreciate bubbles and male bits and pieces confuse me.
Duane Martin in fitted slacks vs. Duane Happy Feet in huge white prison issue grandpa boxers all bunched up plus a crisp pair of clown jeans
Liquid Fonts
August 31 2007, 11:51AM
"Fitted Slacks" don't describe em... more like a pair of panty hose cut at the ankle.
MidwestGuy
August 31 2007, 11:57AM
J, again it is a matter of personal preference. I much prefer to see a man w/a lil sag than w/tight assed pants, smedium polos, or man-flops. Why? Because I don't like the way it looks. It makes me cringe. Even knowing such, I would never pre-judge someone simple because they wear them.
I know guys who dress that way just as I know some who sag their pants.
It is a personal preference.
I cringe at the idea of dating a feminine man. But, I don't prejudge those who will.
It is a personal preference.
It's impossible for any of us to have a reasonable debate on our personal preferences. We just can't.
That's why it's considered a personal preference.
Duane Martin in a pair of skin-tight pants vs. Dwayne Wade in a pair of sagging low riders w/his boxers showing. I'm choosing Wade all day, everyday.
It is a personal preference.
Let's not legislate personal preferences, especially style.
Of course, the 40 additional pounds thing is quite a stretch.
Blue
August 31 2007, 2:11PM
Well, I like my polos and man-flops just fine ... I'd look like a damn fool with jeans three sizes too big hanging off my ass. I'm well aware of the fact that some black men will look at me and think "fag' or "queen" without even having a discussion with me, but such is life when you are black and gay. But for every motherfucker turning his nose up there's one who's turned on ... so you're right, it's a matter of preference.
YellaDerrickfromPhilly
August 31 2007, 3:15PM
MidWest Guy:
I wish you could see some reruns of a TV show called "What's Happening". There's an actor who played a character named Duane. He wore fitted dress pants. THat's what most black men looked like from the waist down before the 1980s. After you see him, then tell me you prefer lookin' at these baggy boxer drawahs' hangin' out some saggy...oh, the good ol' days.
MidwestGuy
August 31 2007, 3:29PM
Blue, Ok wear the man-flops and the polo. BUT, can you wear your pants maybe one-size too big and let them hang low enough to show the top of your ass? especially if it it's a phatty and shows the distinction between the curve of your back and the top of your ass.......
We can work w/that lol
Blue
August 31 2007, 3:41PM
He he, even one size too big it too much. For the record, I don't squeeze into my jeans, but they fit me properly ... and my ass is still viewable, curve of my back and all. ;-)
YellaDerrickfromPhilly
August 31 2007, 3:56PM
I just had a profound thought (I know y'all are holding your collective breaths waiting):
This may be the first time in the history of the human race that queens have had to say to a piece of trade, "Will you please pull UP your pants!"
Enjoy the weekend, ya'll.
MidwestGuy
August 31 2007, 4:18PM
LOL@DPhil. Man I'm 29, not 12. Of course I remember Dwane, Shirley and the crew from What's Happening. Dwane had a very nice, round, supple ass indeed. I remember growing up asking "what were they thinking?" But, lol, it was the style.
I'm 6'4 and the tight clothes thing can never work for me. They are tooooooo restricting. But, hey, that's me.
This sagging pants thing will pass in time. I'm sure we can all look back and ask ourselves "what were we thinking?"
MC Hammer pants
Folding and rolling up tight jeans at the ankles
Wearing clothes backwards
Guess and Bugle Boy Coveralls
Cross Colors
Spandex muscle shirts w/the zipper at the neck.
Man purses.
It was only a fad ya'll. Only a fad.
This too shall pass. It really will. Let's not judge each other because of a lack of fashion sense.
jazzi
August 31 2007, 4:18PM
I think it's the politicians have way too much free time on their hands. That they would even dream up legislating a ban on a certain dress code( no matter how ridiculous that dress code is )just reeks of boredom.
I'm all for personal expression & I'm not mad at anyone for pushing the envelop as far as gear is concerned but I think there comes a point when we need to really question some of the choices we make. To each his own but there is such a thing as going to far. Why would anyone want to go around wearing they pants like a prison bitch? And the inconvenience of having to walk a certain way just to keep your pants up just below your ass...the whole thing seems silly. Sometimes I think we'll do anything just to appear hip, even if it looks dumb.
ray
August 31 2007, 5:16PM
why would anyone want the GOVERNMENT to have the power to dicate what people can and cant wear? How far is that going to go? its sad to see black church-oriented people who'd be happy to live in a dictatorship!
I LIKE sagging pants - i think it's sexy as hell!
Kyon
August 31 2007, 5:20PM
I like the Pussycat Dolls!!!
KB
August 31 2007, 6:19PM
If I were you, I would ask them if they realized that this was how hoodrats wear their shorts in prison (since belts are forbidden), and it is perpetuated because it allows easy access to their asshole. I would then thank them for giving such a clear signal that they are looking to get fucked, and that every gay brotha knows this is what saggin' is really all about.
CJ
August 31 2007, 9:43PM
I think the real problem people have with the style is that you USUALLY see the most ignorant, unemployed or employable for that matter, up to no good individuals dressed like that. The folks who defend it are the same folks it seems who defend all that is negative to us as a people. Sheep follow blindly just because! Anyone that's into their 20's and older that dresses & acts like someone in high school or worse yet prison really should take a long hard look at themselves. Some rather childishly horny individuals may get off on looking at bufoons swagger down the street putting the only thing they have to offer as a man on display, but for the most part it is looks sad & pathetic to people who don't only think with their sex organs.
JET
September 1 2007, 10:01AM
People who dress like this are doing the rest of us a favor. Instead of having "thug" written on their foreheads, they were the saggy pants. Decent people are warned to stay away.
Richie
September 1 2007, 11:11AM
Imagine if a city had passed an anti-hippie ordinance in the 60s banning long hair on men and 'colorful' clothing styles !
What was that film ... "Pleasantville" ?
In any case, this sounds like just another distraction
to keep Lousianans from noticing how incompetent and
corrupt government in Louisiana has become. "We can't
fix the hurricane damage, the post-hurricane crime, the post-hurricane job crunch, the post-hurricane housing crunch, the post-hurricane graft and bribery and backroom deals ... but don't dispair, we'll fight valiantly against saggy pants !".
Great post Keith
http://www.hiphoprepublican.com/
chris-leo
September 1 2007, 5:32PM
can we step back for a sober look around.
this sounds like a conversation from 1920 or 1960 or 1950. i'm sure people of antiquity were outraged by their kids and how they wore things. that's how fashion changes.
OUTRAGE IS THE WHOLE POINT. young people will assert themselves and SHOCK YOU. they are the future and are going to inherit the earth as older people continue to die. instead of simply accepting what's handed to them, some will be creative and remold and reshape it to suit their own identity, boundaries and time...however clumsily they do it. the good ideas will last and the bad ones will fall away, and only time will tell which is which.
so, as the fake outrage continues, just remember... IF THE OLDER GENERATION WASN'T OUTRAGED BY WHAT YOUNGER PEOPLE WERE WEARING, SINGING OR SAYING, the younger generation wouldn't want to wear it, sing it or say it.
so, all the old grannies on here, just take a deep breath and say, "HONESTLY. KIDS TODAY...." and get it out of your system.
Poopoo
September 1 2007, 9:27PM
Keith Boykin has morphed into a very mean, narrow-minded, judgmental, bitter person. I guess this is what happens out of the frustration experienced when your celebrity status grows only to the level of the D list and not above that level. At least Kathy Griffin is funny.
If someone doesn't act like, look like, dress like, talk like, or support Keith's narrow views, they are judged off the face of the earth by him.
I used to love the information I gained from this website. Every since Keith went Hollywood, this blog has become a pit of mean-spirited nastiness.
I used to think Keith just didn't like white people. Now I realize he doesn't anyone who isn't part of the black bougie circuit scene.
Shame on you. Those who live in glass houses...
Liquid Fonts
September 2 2007, 6:35AM
edvince
September 2 2007, 8:50AM
the same riff-rough and noise was made about mini-skirts in the 60ties. Let youth be youth and enjoy this period in their lives and don't let we grown-up adult minded persons stand in the way with our opinions. If it bother's you don't look or comment, just like I did last week when CNN Int'l aired Gay's can be Cured LOL! I don't nor did I ever see or hear America's Anglo adult community making a big fuss about their teenagers hip hop's fades. Funny becaue they purchase more of the products than the African-American youth.
Aaron
September 2 2007, 9:40AM
Dear Legislator: When you write that law to forbid young black men from wearing saggy pants that show their underwear, but rarely any skin, please don't forget to include a provision that prohibits women from wearing tops and bottoms 3 sizes too small; subjecting the viewing public to every crease, fold, bulge and crack. Thank you, Concerned Citizen.
YellaDerrickfromPhilly
September 3 2007, 3:11PM
"...I'm 29 years....I'm 6'4...." Six foot four! WHAT?
MidWest Guy: You said earlier, you'd never date "feminine types", but HOT DAMN! Six foot fo'! What size shoe?
I can "butch it up" a little...very little. Shoot, to hell with them saggy pants--I'ma' headin' west. Where you at? Cleveland? Cincinatti? Detroit? Chicago? St. Louis? Indianapo...oh, forget that, I aint touchin' foot in Indiana--that's Klan country. Six foot fo' and CHOCOLATE! Hot Damn! Let me practice my homothug speech, "Yo, Yo, whassup?"
J
September 3 2007, 5:56PM
Boys that claim to hate or be disgusted by fem dudes bang them out on the low. Don't let all that "I want to be down with straight negroids" talk fool you.
Those are the same dudes that get a little emotional and turn into big girls. You've seen it. At first they're hitting all the homothug poses and speech right(just like they practiced)and then someone says something about gays and the eyes start rolling. The neck rolls aren't far behind and the hips start switching. I see you Midwest. I see you girl. Don't be scared. Let it out. It's okay. I got some stuff at Prince's garage sale with your name on it. Cotton candy pink man...and my friend Yoko has the hookup on that yaky if you need it.
MidwestGuy
September 4 2007, 10:23AM
DPhil, you are one craaaaaazie kat! You don't have to change your speech man--lol. You almost sound as authentic as my son when he attempts to go hood on me w/his "yo dad" routine. Both of you should stop!!!lol
I tend to speak in the same way as I write on here. For the most part, using little slang and in complete sentences. I'm constantly telling him and his friends that imperfect speech and a swag is not the mark of black male masculinity, regardless of what you see on TV. They are young so it'll be a while before they get it though. But, that's why he has good ol dad!!!!
I'm in The Windy City and a 13. I did live in Indianapolis for a quick minute though. Needless to say, I won't be back.
KB
September 4 2007, 1:19PM
What sort of idiot parents let their 15 year old boys wear pants that hang so far below their ass that they can't even walk without holding up the waistband with one hand?
This is not about fashion. This is not about "outrage." This is not about shocking older folks. This is about also not about provoking anti-sag legislation. This is not about conservative bias, selling out, misunderstanding hiphop culture.
What this IS about is just another group of "conforming non-conformists." Ooooh, I'm gonna wear the waistband of my pants below my ass cheeks. Where is the shock value in something that everyone else around you is doing? Sagging is lame--get off the politically correct wagon, folks.
Meyamo
September 4 2007, 4:20PM
Sorry for jumping in here, Poopoo, but I couldn't wait for you.
Liquid Fonts - you said "I think people have a hard time seeing a BUSINESS as being ethical, caring, community based, open to critism and profitable all at once. We're not used to it as consumers and that is partly why Keith Boykin is so special."
LMAO! Profitable? Ethical? Is that why Keith's is the only self expressing blog I have ever seen that has a fundraiser to continue to get funds from his readers as opposed to paying for his venture on his own or through advertisers?
You also state, "These elements Keith brings to his site would make for a great nation". Exactly what this country needs - more complaining and criticizing with no productive solutions offered. Keith is hanging by one last thread of his worn out "same ole same ole" suit. Yawn.
I'm moving on to more productive blogs.
castiron
September 4 2007, 5:24PM
It might be considerable youthful and fashionable by some, but it is still low class, inappropriate and rude. I wish the topic of wearing your underwear as outwear were more complicated, but it just isn't.
Reginald T. Naji-Allah
September 5 2007, 2:59PM
I do think it should be against the law to wear sagging pants that exposes a man's or woman's underwear. We as a society have gone way over the line with political correctness. Letting anyone do anything, as long as someone can make a argument for it. Well, I can make a argument for a lot of insane things but that do not make them any less insane. It is great to SAY let the family handle it, but alot of these people have no family and those that do have families in name only. We have entered the second generation of children raising or more accurately children under-raising children. They do not know better and therefore do not pass on normal ethics and morals to their young. The television, music industry, video games and hip hop culture are all raising our children and that is plain wrong. We -- tghe sane parents, teachers, social activists, and just john and jane Q public need to step forward and say there is a line of decency which everyone must not cross period.
Ron
September 5 2007, 7:34PM
I do not agree with this whole boxer issue being legislated. I'm tellin you...so many people think its a good idea for all these little laws and things to regulate people's lives. But, one day we're going to wake up and realize that "big brother" is monitoring damn near everything in our lives.
HOWEVER, the only time I don't mind seeing the whole underwear showing look is when a guy is wearing briefs and has a nice round phatty. Otherwise, its just disgusting. But I still feel as though it should be in an appropriate setting. I don't want to see it in the mall or a restaurant or a movie theater. If you are walking down the street I don't care.
Thank the lord the parents in my family wouldn't dare let their children walk around like this though. I think it is very low class.
Ron Lee
September 8 2007, 4:30AM
"My two cents" well fellors, I know the style began here in Louisiana,mostly by males who were previously incarcerrated then immitated by others. Most of these guys were BUTCH and many were bisexual,they were also the favs.of Butch Queens & Drag Queens in New Orleans throughout the 60s,70s,&80s.The Butch Queens were usually sticking them while the Drag Queen was getting stuck by them,and swearing they found a "man". We butch queens use to brag about our conquest of this male pussy to each other & our sissy friends,we even had names for them B-Boys,Bangee Boys,Boggie Trade many times b just meaning black & bisexual...but until the acceptance of rap in the mid 90s alot of gay men who had previously ignored them not only began to accept them but also began to immitate their style of dress,straight men also followed not knowing they were copying a "jail inspired homo-thug" look. However,the kids today are taking it to another level disrepecting young females & our elders. IT SHOULD BE STOPPED IMMEDIATELY.PEACE.
Equalnox
September 10 2007, 12:37PM
I would prefer the banning of Muslim attire. I consider it to be a slap in the face of American woman who have struggled so long to have equal rights in this country. The muslim way of thinking is more of a threat to national security than sagging jeans. However banning the attire of any group be they B-boys or Muslims opens the door a little bit wider for the Religious extremists of the world to take over. Maybe if they passed a law that said no one under 18 can wear baggy jeans that might be a good compromise.
Langston Baldwin
September 12 2007, 11:04PM
Funny, there were a lot of styles that our parents did not like. My thought is 80% of the guys with the jeans sagging look PLAIN OLE STINK. If you find that sexy fine. It is degenerate behaviour. No need to ban it, but we have to teach our kids that YOU WILL BE JUDGED first on appearance.CLEAN it up. Kids of the 80's were radical yet clean. Am I right or wrong?
FreeThinker
September 14 2007, 9:39AM
I have only one thing to say about this new "fashion". I hear people in support of it and others against it. I just want to go on record as saying the problem with sagging your pants is simple,it makes our young African-American and Latino men look like thugs. For the reason of appearance, Our people are being punished. I suggest that we beat them at the game which that the "MAN" is trying to play. Take the grievances through the courts and defend your rights as American Citizen
Jay
September 16 2007, 10:07PM
I have to say that as sexy as I find this type of attire on SOME men. It is not appropriate in public, on an interview, court or anywhere unless it's in the privacy of your own home or at a Pride event. We as African-American men collectively need to get back to dressing as well as conducting ourselves as the intelligent, strong species that we are. Lastly, the African-American designers should refrain from allowing the male models to wear their new line with sagging pants as well. We have got to stop marketing this trend.
malik
September 17 2007, 4:56PM
The Saggy Pants phenomenon is basically another chapter in the colorful, oppositional, dysfunctional and yes sad reality of black people, and specifically young black men in America. In his seminal book "Dark Ghetto," Dr. Kenneth Clark attributes this kind of oppositional acting out to what he called "COMPENSENTORY GRANDIOSE BEHAVIOR!" This is the same kind of acting out that leads many black male youths to want pit bull dogs and engage in all kinds of high risk behavior. Yes, it can be said that it's all about fashion, and the "pushing the envelope" nature of urban and hip hop youths. But there's no denying that "saggy pants" is both very sexualized and provocative. So my bothers, if you don't want another man admiring and desiring your ass, pull your pants up! FYI: Check the attached site for an article with more insights:
http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/sagging.asp
Shaun Witten
September 23 2007, 7:56AM
While I don't think it's appropriate to pass laws against a style of clothing, I to dislike this style of clothing.
My main problem with it is black men (and some women) emulating a style of dress originating in prison. Why are black people outside of prison (from thugs to the Princeton Ph.D. canditate above) so willing to embrace prison fashion?
I generally don't criticize people for revealing clothing - but it should be appropriate to the setting. Sagging on a job interview? What was he thinking? I wouldn't dress that way for a job interview - even at Def Jam. I had a coworker who always wore really low cut tops on business trips, such as is snowy Austria in the middle of winter. It was as impractical and out of place as the sagging wear. If your pants are sagging to the point you can't walk easily then it becomes stupid. These men might as well be wearing stiletto heels - they look equally difficult to walk in.
Mitch
September 24 2007, 10:28PM
I believe most male who sag expose an unconscious need to be attractive to whomever is into booty. Some Black ales have that asset and know and show it.
Ultra Man
October 25 2007, 6:01PM
Wow... lets see I'm a young black man and I dress in an urban inspired fashion. And like most people I think saggin pants are ridiculous, it is what it is. It's not a fashion statement, or a way to "show the everyday struggles of life for the black man". It's just straight up stupidity and a way for somebody to receive attention no matter what the cost. Just because the law is stepping in doesn't make it racist or it's specifically targeting young blacks. It seems to me that people think whenever the law or governing bodies involve themselves that it's always about color. Of course we know the United States is a racist place, especially against blacks. However targeting individuals for literally exposing their ass is reason enough to fine them. As for the article itself saying it's not law enforcements responsibility and it's more of a concern for the parents is true. Just one problem with that, if the parents would have prevented it in the first place then law enforment agencies wouldn't have to.
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