Why We Separate Church and State

By Keith Boykin, in spirituality
Thursday, August 2 2007, 10:57AM

What you are about to read is heresy. Or treason, depending on your perspective. If I wrote this article in Tehran, I could be in jail by the end of the day, charged with "activities against national security" and "publicity in favor of the regime’s opponents." If the police found out I was gay, I could be sentenced to death and executed in a public hanging. Iranians and visitors to Iran can also be hanged for other crimes, including rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, drug trafficking, pederasty, adultery, prostitution, treason and espionage. In fact, just yesterday, the government of Iran hanged 9 people in what it called a crackdown on "thugs."

Every time I hear the Christian fundamentalists in America talk about putting (their) God back into public life, getting tough on crime, and executing criminals, I am reminded of the Islamic fundamentalists in Iran. The dangers of intermingling church and state are still vividly on display in that country, and I don't want it to happen here.

Injustice In Iran

Not long ago, Sina Paymard, an 18-year-old Iranian musician, was set to be executed for a murder that took place during a fight. Standing on the gallows, the young man's last request was to play a Middle Eastern flute called a ney for the last time. After his performance, the family of the victim was so moved by his music that they granted Paymard a last minute reprieve. Families of victims in Iran have to power to stop an execution and demand monetary compensation instead. In this case, the family asked for 150 million toumans (over $US 160,000) as compensation, and Paymard’s family then struggled to raise the funds.

By the end of the deadline, Sina Paymard’s father reportedly said that he had sold everything in order to raise US $70,000, but the victim's family rejected the settlement as insufficient. After an international fundraising campaign from human rights groups, the family was able to raise the remainder of the money and the execution was halted. That's the kind of "justice" that takes place in Iran.

Amnesty International reports that Iran executed 177 people in 2006 and 143 people so far this year. Armed with cameras and camcorders, men, women and children jostle for position behind security barriers, determined to get the best view of the main event.

A few years ago, Americans objected to the Taliban, the authoritarian religious government in Afghanistan. In that country, women were not allowed to show any part of their bodies in public, men were required to sport short hair cuts, and opposition to the religious government could land you in prison or in the death chamber. After the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan following the September 11 attack, the Taliban government fell, but religious fundamentalism remains a threat to freedom in the world.

These are just some of the recent news reports from Iran.

God and Man

There is a small but influential segment of society in our culture and in others that wants to impose religious order on public life. This is a dangerous step backward.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in using God or religion as a device to make me feel better than you. My vision of God may not be the same as yours. I don't care. I just don't want you to impose your vision on me and I won't impose mine on you. At least not in public policy.

Of course, my political beliefs are often informed by my faith. My faith is what teaches me that capital punishment is wrong. I took it seriously when the Ten Commandments said "Thou shalt not kill." And I took it seriously when Jesus said to turn the other cheek. I know that those principles are very hard to live up to, and that is part of the reason I am troubled by the Christians who cite their faith as a justification for wars, weapons and murder.

I don't want religion dictating marching orders to our public officials. I don't care what religion it is, I don't want it in my government. I don't want the Ten Commandments hanging in the county court house. I don't want public school teachers instructing my children how and when to pray. And I don't want those teachers teaching religious theories to substitute for science.

I have seen the damage caused by religious fundamentalism in the Islamic world, and I do not want the Taliban here in America. Even if they come bearing a cross.

Comments (33) reveal

Comments conceal

bubba
August 2 2007, 12:22PM

Why do you think John Edwards "struggles" with the concept of gay marriage? Why do any of those useless politicians from either party? THEY CAN'T SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE. If there's a big enough incentive to ignore that concept, financial or otherwise, they'll do it. If you think America is truly behind a separation, try running for office as an atheist. Shouldn't we scrutinize the issue in our land before picking apart the Middle East's governments?

Doug Cooper-Spencer
August 2 2007, 12:54PM

The photo you used is powerful. I agree with you all the way. I work with so many 'religious' people who have embraced religion, but have not achieved the sense of spirituality needed to move people them to LOVE.

David
August 2 2007, 1:04PM

I've come to the conclusion that many of the religious leaders in this country are envious of the power that the Ayatollahs and other religious leaders have in other countries and want to create the same situation here.
Of course that would be all we would need, gangs and militias fighting along sectarian lines.

Derrick from Philly
August 2 2007, 2:18PM

I'd hoped the Iranian people would have overthrown the ruthless theocracy that's been governing them for almost thirty years now, but obviously, it's not easy to take a government which uses terror to govern its people. And I repeat, "...the Iranian people..." Why is it that the Europeans seem to understand that you can't go into a sovereign nation and install the kind of government you want: because the Europeans use to do it, and eventually they got burned trying to prop up puppet governments. Americans can't seem to learn that lesson. We can support a liberation movement without sending American troops in to fight/occupy. The minute you do that, you build up anti-American sentiment in that foreign land. The exception may have been Afganistan, and that's the only invasion that was justified. The Afgan government housed a group that attacked this country, and so the invasion and occupation were justified. Pakistan must be handled differently--too dangerous, Mr Obama.

Jeff Hobbs
August 2 2007, 2:22PM

that picture is chilling and sickening at the same time. This whole article turns my stomach. We are so lucky to be Americans. God forbid we had to live like that.

jared
August 2 2007, 2:34PM

That picture speaks volumes and it breaks my heart as we can all figure out that they didn't get even a semblance of a fair trail. But, I see it in this light, as long as there is a GOP and it can use its fear tactics and get the religious sorts to agree to anti-gay, anti-black, anti-immigrant, anti-Islam, etc, we are doomed, as there are so many in this society who don't have a clue as to why there is a need for separation of church and state and take everything verbatim that's spewed in a pulpit.

A few weeks ago, there was a survey, and IIRC, most are for more religion in government and leadership in this country, so, who knows where the USA will be in 25 years?

Troy
August 2 2007, 2:51PM

That picture is alive, I only wished the article pointed out the true modern day killers; Bush, Cheney and Condolezza and their gang.

Michael
August 2 2007, 2:52PM

We live in very dangerous times now. If you look around people are trying to bring religion into political matters. Hell look at this current election both Democrats and Republicans are fighting for the Christian vote as Bush did in 2000 and 2004. And Edwards wanting the Christian vote is exactly why he's "struggling," with the idea. I mean I'm sure if people like Jerry Falwell had his way gays, lesbians, feminists, and people that get abortions would be burned for their "crimes." However I didn't see Falwell protesting and preaching against Red Lobster, cause to eat shellfish also is an "abomination". Without religion there isn't a person that can justify their hatred for gays & lesbians and it's sickening how religion even in 2007 continues to be perverted mostly by whites (here in America) and slowly but surely blacks (who should know better) are joining the band wagon.

FredinLA
August 2 2007, 4:42PM

I have a church/state keep them separate bumper sticker on my car and one day at Petco a black woman came up to me and asked me "What's the value of that?" After I explained it to her she was like "but isnt that what we have, church and state or separate?" I said "yes, but in the past 8 years we seem to be moving in a different direction."

I think there are many folks, including many black folks, who would be happy to see a Christian Taliban in this country. They are the same folks who attribute the problems in our schools to 'god' being taken out of public schools

I am as against the mingling of church and state as I am against the totalitarian regimes which prohibit people from worshipping as they chose

You Know Me!
August 2 2007, 7:44PM

Without church, there could've been a state. If you cutoff one, you just killed the other. State is nothing without church.

Ron Lee
August 2 2007, 8:10PM

I agree Keith, we should keep church & state separate. However; my stance on gay marriage is if the church approve fine if they disapprove fine but lets not create laws that descriminate against any law biding citizen. And for the record we citizens of African descent have for several 100 years lived under such a system as Iran. Too bad to many of us are caught up in bullshit causes, while our people die from violense & disaese. PEACE OUT.

Steve
August 3 2007, 12:33AM

Whenever religious people become so self-righteous they feel they need to acquire political power to either "protect" their religion or to impose it upon others, they have ceased the work of god and begun the work of the devil. Since very little of what passes for religion in this country today is truly about seeking enlightment or being "godly" and is instead directed at ways to force others to be so, we have become a nation of evil rather than a force for good. No politician has the will to stand up to the religious wrong (and we really do need to start using that term more often) for fear of being labelled "godless."

I, for one, would vote in an instant for a candidate who didn't struggle with religious issues, who didn't appoint a preacher to serve him in the Whitehouse, who took the oath of office on something other than the Bible, who refused to pray, who would take "In God We Trust" off the money, and who would take God out of the pledge of Allegiance. I'd vote for that person in a MINUTE.

Nathan James
August 3 2007, 8:06AM

In 2004, John Kerry was asked what, being a Roman Catholic, his stance on abortion would be if he was elected President. His answer spoke volumes: "I cannot legislate my religious beliefs on the American people". Kerry understood, as did the fathers of our country, how important separation of Church and State really are. When we see how out-of-control theocracies like Iran operate, we are reminded how lucky we are to live in the United States. Even with all its problems, this country could be a much worse place to live.

However, I do agree with some of the others who posted on this topic. I still feel uncomfortable seeing "In God We Trust" on our Government's institutions, especially our courthouses. Sometimes the line between Church and State does become a little blurry...

Steve
August 3 2007, 8:15AM

A LITTLE BLURRY? Holy cripe! Where are you living?

We have religion so mixed up in our daily life it boggles the mind. Let's take marriage - religious institution. Maybe instead of giving gay people marriage rights, we should take away civil recognition of marriage. How far would that discussion go? How about that money? Think you could get god off it? How about those oaths you take in court? Just try to take the bible out of it. How about religious symbols that are carved into public buildings? We fought a HUGE court battle here in Minnesota to get the ten commandments STATUE off the courthouse lawn, and the church nuts are STILL fuming about it several years later. What if we pursued "religious harrassment" in the workplace to the same degree we pursue sexual harrassment? What if churches had to pay taxes? (This latter really SHOULD be true for those organizations who pursue political agendas, btw.) Think of all the other Christian symbolism (and sacraments) that permeates your daily life. Ubiquitous!

claytonkaras.com
August 3 2007, 8:28AM

Pretty scary stuff

Spirituality, and the belief in God isn't the bad thing

It's religion it-self, religion is of man, not of God, and being of man it gets twisted to suit the religious rights needs to control people.

James Synegal
August 6 2007, 6:37PM

Hey, everybody! I am very disturbed to have seen this picture, as a student of political science(B.A Xavier University of Louisiana 2003), it is very sad to see these kinds of what I call "governmental attempts to keep people in their place and, threaten and instill fear into the masses". The photo pretty much speaks for itself. Also, my man Keith pointed out that in the Arab world, (Iran particularly), one can be killed just because he or she is gay. I think that is downright stupidity, cowardly, and aint no religion involved. I do not know of any religion that tolerates murder for any reason. That is the problem with these so call religious fundamentalists, they want to first adhere to racial, prejudicial, and mysogynistic religious verses and declare that it is right because it was written by so-called followers of God. I believe in God, sure I do, however, I think that it is unfortunate that we live in a world where people actually believe that garbage. A lot of it is elitist, racial, prejudicial, and mysogynistic and was written during a time where only men held power. Also, I would like to mention that most of these so-called sacred works were written by nothing but men(to be questioned). It is simple, If I owned a jewelry store, quite naturally, I would "tailor" the rules to keep me on top. However, there is a distinction between myself and the masses, yes I would like to be at the top, however, I would not have any rules to discriminate against anyone else trying to do the same thing. That is the difference here, alot of this so-called religion is just an attempt by those in power to "keep the masses in there place". I think this is wrong and I am glad that Keith is how he is, some people seem to have a problem with him, because he is so adamant about the truth, call him outspoken, well too bad, we need a strong (good-looking), intelligent brotha to do something it seems as if everyone else is sitting on there asses. These so-called conservative christians aint doing nothing but killing, spreading hate and making money and they can say what they want(spreading hate) and no one seems to say anything but when a liberal like me or Keith(who I presume has to be pretty liberal, to be as classy as he is) everyone wanna say we starting shit. Well I know firsthand how it feels to be ridiculed, written off, and rejected, just because your'e gay even by my own family. I just want to say class is class and thrash is thrash and all those who out there spreading this type of filth and hate they're the real loosers. Also to my man Keith, I worship the groung you walk on , I think that you are classy, talented, handsome, intelligent, and have a great deal of self-respect and what I call an inner wisdom not most people have, keep up the good work, you are truly remarkable and something to clap about. I would love to one day shake your hand. I was feeling really down today, I was feeling mighty sad ( this morning these guys called me a sissified sissy and a dick sucking faggot and teased me by pulling down their shorts and showing me their asses) I mentioned it to one of my (close-minded family members) and his reaction was what did you do for them to say something to you? I wanted to kick him squat in the nuts, but I knew that was not becoming of me so I let it slide. When I got on the computer and saw your face, I instantly felt about 95% better. So to Keith be blessed and we love ya! Peace James

Derrick from Philly
August 7 2007, 9:30AM

James: Yes, it does feel better when you know that there are folks on your side--even if they are thousands of miles away. That's the great thing about these black gay blogs, they let you know you're not alone.

Good Luck, James, and stay strong.

Stuffed Animal
August 7 2007, 1:48PM

Be afraid. Be very afraid. The religious Right Wing has funded a public television documentary called "Wall Of Separation" which argues that the founders of our government envisioned America as a theocracy. It's being shown right now on PBS affiliates across the country.

C. Baptiste-Williams
August 10 2007, 9:38AM

Great piece Keith.

How can we have freedom of religion in this country but yet have one religion dominating the government. Next thing you know there will be amendments stating you can only be evangelical.

Zeke
August 10 2007, 10:36PM

"A woman and two others were executed in Iran..."

Am I the only person that is bothered by the way that sentence reads? "...and two others"? Is that to suggest that the woman's execution was a particularly outrageous act as opposed to the two others (who assumedly were men)?

Is this kind of like when people say "a car bomb exploded at a market in Bagdad and killed 25 people including two innocent women? Forget the 23 innocent men, who couldn't possibly defend themselves from a hidden car bomb, it requires a woman or child to be killed before we should REALLY be outraged. That has always gotten under my skin.

Sr. Maria Renata Apare
August 11 2007, 11:18AM

Bom dia from Brasil, I am Sister MAria Renata Aparecida of Brazil. I am 25 Years old former Model in Rio de Janeiro but joined the Dominican Sisters of MAry Mother of the Eucharist. I got tired with the pressures of society and wanted to give everything to Christ. I wanted to be his humble Bride!

Now Christianity in General there are always in imperfect people but as well as loving people as well. Our Religious Order runs schools in Rio de Janiero and as well as in Michigan, USA. We also take care of the poor and sick and the dying as JEsus would do.

I don't want to be judgemental on this website, all I can offer all of you is my Humility and my humble prayers! I will say the Rosary for all of you and Adore JEsus MY GROOM in the EUCHARISTIC Adoration!

Zeke
August 11 2007, 3:26PM

Oh MAry puh-lese!

I'm glad that you've found happiness and peace and I wish you well.

I won't be judgemental of you either for blindly supporting one of the most corrupt institutions in the world.

Though I will gladly accept any love and respect that you would like to send my way, please don't say your Rosary on my behalf. I don't want or need it.

Thanks


Sr. Maria Aparecida
August 11 2007, 5:43PM

Zeke I think that you think my comments the wrong way I pray for Christians who are judgemental and for everyone please forgive me If I offended you. So you are saying that the Institution I am in is corrupt? We minister to the homeless in Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo especially street children who have nothing to care for them. We help the sick by our hospitals and schools and minister to those in jails and gang violence that plague the City. This October we are opening a HIV/AIDS hospice in the City and minister to prostitutes.

Look the Catholic Church is holy it may have a a lot of sinful people but they don't represent us. So go ahead shut us down. Who is going to take care of the needy in the world, The Brazilian Government is corrupt the Church is the only institution that provides service. Sorry for taking the comment the wrong way! I love you in Christ and pray for you! I guess your version of "Inclusiveness and tolerance" have no room for people like myself.

Lady M. Quinten
August 11 2007, 9:01PM

Zeke I am not a supporter of COnservatives because I consider myself to be a Moderate. Nor do I considered myself a Liberal Democrate or Conservative Republicans. There are hyprocrites on both sides! Nor do I stand for Political Correctness. YOu don't bash a Sister like that who is doing marvelous things to others. As a Catholic it sounds very offensive. Sr. MAria didn't spew hatred towards you nor did she say bad things about you!

Zeke quite being a Standoffish stuck up liberals, as much I can't stand those on the Right Wing you are giving a bad impression of yourself! Archbishop Fulton Sheen said "There are not a hundred who hate the CAtholic Church in America but millions who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic Church. Two Million Young Catholics are gathering in Sydney, Australia Next Year in 2008 from 200 COuntries. Just so you know there are a lot more of us!

Prof. Kathy Jennings
August 27 2007, 3:10AM

I am an African American CAtholic Schoolteacher, Zeke if you have a problem of calling the Catholic Church "Corrupt" then why don't you tell your niggerdly bastard or "African American Niggers" out of the CAtholic school system that have educated thousands of Poor Black Children in Harlem, Chicago and other cities. Hell why don't you tell them jungle bunnies to request services that Catholic Charities and Hospitals founded by CAtholic Sister Religious to go somewhere else since we are "Corrupt"? Every institution has flaws!

African Americans always bash Jews and Catholics that help saved their asses and now we bite the hand that hellped us. Glad my people are "Tolerant and Inclusiveness" towards others.

Also Zeke and to all others in this website that you are all a bunch of Stuck up Snotty Liberal zigaboos! Thanks for the Truth Telling Holla!

cinny
August 28 2007, 12:07AM

I understand that Pat Robertson's, Regents Law School, is trying to stack the judiciary w/ pro-death penalty, anti-abortionist, anti-gay rights, anti-civil rights adjudicators. This I'm affraid would hasten the day when our Legal System would look very much like that in Teheran.

Prof. KAthy Jennings
August 28 2007, 1:47PM

cinny thanks for your snotty liberal comment yes just so you know you make Feminists bitches look bad like yourself. Also I THINK FEMINISTS BITCHES AND GAY JIHADISTS JUST WANTED TO MAKE EVERYONE BOW DOWN TO THEIR SOOTHING AGENDAS. Not a big fan of Pat Robertson and by the way I am against the death penalty.

Also cinny why can't you just admit that you are a bitter feminist because ABORTION HURTS WOMEN EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY! ALSO I AM NOT SISTER MARIA, ARE YOU THREATENED BY HERE BECAUSE SHE IS A NUN?

This is you cinny: I am just a Militant Liberal Feminist if you don't bow down to my level of Liberal Orthodoxy then you are just wrong. There is no GOd so we can be like the Militant Totalitarian States like North Korea or China since Atheism is the answer there! If you do believe in God then you are "Uneducated" and we be watching you since! -cinny

Also if you are against the death penalty then why believe its okay to murder a innocent human being in the womb?

Kelvin
September 6 2007, 6:36PM

This is a really sad case. It proves the ignorance of religion - which is nothing more than a bunch of babble anyway. None of those bigots have seen their God at any time, yet they still feel the need to kill for 'him'. This is one of the reasons why God has never, nor will ever, be found in religion. There isn't much freedom in Iran, and many believe the Revolutionary Guard (part of the Iranian military) are providing weapons to the terrorists in Iraq... it's all sickening.

http://junyabell.blogspot.com/

Bob
September 8 2007, 10:47PM

To some people, religion is their religion. To others, politics is their religion. There is zeal found in both. There are leaders for both, followers for both, donated monies for both, places of gathering for both etcetera, etcetera.

Politics and religion both have corrupt leaders. They both have sincere, legitimate participants as well.
Politics is indesputably about the acquisition and use of power and influence. "Religion" (as a general reference in the "Christian" sense) was NEVER supposed to be about that.

While I don't believe that North American religious right wingers want a theocracy (It is impossible to have one if there is a king, prime minister, president etc. in power - God has to be the director of all affairs. Note that even ancient Israel ceased to be a theorcracy when Solomon became king.) I encourage believers to adopt the teachings and disciplines of Jesus. He didn't run for office...he walked with God. Now that left a message!

Catholic Scientist
September 16 2007, 2:08AM

Hello I am Prof. Ken Miller of Brown University of Rhode Island I am a Biology prof. both Micro and Macro and teach evolution and a very devout Catholic. Yes its true Religion can be used in a inappropriate way. WE don't want another Iran or at the same time a Atheistic State like North Korea. ITs balancing it out. I studied in the Vatican Observatory and the Univ. of Rome and we had wonderful Catholic JEsuit PRiests who were professors in Anatomy,Chemistry, Biology, Astronomy and Catholic Scientists all over the world would come. Its all about faith and reason. We are all human and we messed up. But God has a human face and his name is Jesus! Religion if used correct could be powerful tool for PEace and Justice. Me and my wife are Catholic Missioners in Thailand we minister to AIDS patients in Bangkok. We serve regardless of religion! PEace to all of YOu!

Catholic Scientist
September 17 2007, 1:34AM

KEith and to all of you I think you justified those headlines up there which is overly exaggerated. Kelvin I and to all of you should take Logic or Philosophy Class books that you really need to read is the Confessions of St. Augustine and the City of God by St. Augustine. Also the Catholic Church takes Philosophy of Aristotle which states the "NAture of Law". Life is sacred from the Moment of "Conception UNTIL NATURAL DEATH" As a Biology Professor abortion, ethuanasia and the death penalty is wrong. That is MORAL RELATIVISM GONE AMUCK! As a Moderate in Politics I think that the TEN COMMENDMENTS IS NECESSARY! Don't have to be a Christian but in order to understand the Universe we need natural law. I think to teach BOTH creationism and Evolution would be great!

Religion can be used in a wrong way but its unfair that you categorize religion as all bad? Society needs laws and values to govern! Everything has a limit! Domunis VOBISCUM!

Anti-Chavez Venezuela
September 17 2007, 2:05AM

KEith can I ask you something when does the Ten Commandments sound really offense. ITs not the Symbol of Christianity and Judaism but the VALUES THAT IT REPRESENTS! Why does Honor your mother and Father offend anybody! Look I am for the Seperation of Church and State but you really are going over board. When society has no respect for parents and the Elderly then we need it up there! When there are crooked politicians then the "Thou Shall not Steal" rule apply. I as Moderate think Liberalism is getting too nutty! Too nutty than those in the right! What About "Thou Shall not Kill" (unborn human life begins at conception, ethunasia, death penalty)

YOu know whats the opposite of Iran?, North Korea, Cuba, China and of course Venezuela. You criticize Hugo Chavez and thats it! I grew up in Venezuela! ONE THING I CANNOT STAND IS THE AMERICAN LEFT, ITS WORST THAN THE RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS OF IRAN AND AMERICA!

FRE
October 22 2007, 12:31AM

The comments by Anti-Chavez Venezuela clearly show an inability to think clearly and logically which, unfortunately, is not unusual.

Anti-Chavez Venezuela wrote, "KEith can I ask you something when does the Ten Commandments sound really offense," and, "Why does Honor your mother and Father offend anybody!"

Reading what Keith wrote shows that Keith respects and accepts the 10 Commandments, although he is opposed to forcing others to do so. What Anti-Chavez Venezuela is unable to understand is that some of us who have very firm beliefs would oppose forcing those beliefs on others. Unfortunately, there are many people who want to force their beliefs onto others. When these people acquire political power, they are dangerous!

I also believe the 10 Commandments, but beyond what is necessary for social justice, I would oppose enacting them into law. Thus, I would favor making murder illegal and bearing false witness in court illegal.


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