Where Faith Meets Reason

Cris
May 3 2007, 11:30AM

I think it's time we take a hard look at the black chuch and religion as a whole. One must understand religion as the primary corruptor of spirituality as a whole. Think about this: most people who happen to quote the King James VERSION of the bible, don't even know who he was or whi it came about. King James was born King James IV of Scotland, and only rose as King James I of England after he kidnapped his own cousin and convinced his aunt to kill his own mother. Altruistic huh? Then, he creates the King James Version of the bible simply becuase there were two main versions of the bible at odds: The Great Bible and the Geneva Bible.
While most have done no research or even critical thinking, let's keep it real, it's time to realize these things for what they are, translations of dead languages that were not in use when James' version came abot, so how am I to beleive that everything there is completely unbias when over 100 different people put it together?

Troy
May 3 2007, 12:18PM

Keith you need to send her a full color picture of your partner and tell her that there's no way in hell could you or would you turn straight with a member of the uber gorgeous squad at your side. How dare she get up close and personal with you, humpf! Bible thumpers are so weird. Write her back -tell her God is Love! And love is for EVERYBODY!

curious887
May 3 2007, 12:26PM

Faith is very important to me. I've gotten through too many obstacles in my life to be arrogant enough to think it was all me. I believe in Him and thank Him everyday for getting me through another day. I look to him for guidance. But as a Christian, I have struggled most of my life with the idea of being attracted to other men. It has not been an easy road to walk, and I have seen so many b/c of their homosexuality just turn from the Lord or the church. But we need that fellowship with the Lord and each other.

One passage that has always struck me is 1 Cor. 13:12, which says we see in a glass dimly and only in part. In other words, we cannot understand everything, even those things that seem so clear.

I don't know why I am gay, but I don't believe I am evil b/c of it, or that gays will all burn in Hell. My mom used to say we make our heaven and Hell right here. I think she was right.

Ronnie
May 3 2007, 12:26PM

This woman, like many people who believe they know God and can quote God at a snap drive me up the wall. I live by this one quote that defines who I am and where I will go, it is "Love thy neighbor." That's it. Everything in that bible every anti-gay, anti-free to love who you please type person is totally defeated against that one quote because if they... Hell with the rambling. To me God is love that's all. Everyone tries to make him or her or him/her into a critical being that loves to a certain extent or point. A cousin of mine just died. He was gay. I was listening to my mother talk to her friend who happens to be in the church and married to a pastor. They were talking about how just because my cousin went through so many life threatening things, his life was on borrowed time. Borrowed time? This from religious people, who could have just said God was watching out for him. Now he's dead, and their saying he was a member of a church, got baptised cause he thought he maybe going you know where. Total B.S

DJ Black Adam
May 3 2007, 12:37PM

@Chris:

First off, people need to get off that “King James” this “King James” that drama. The KJV is a legitimate version of the scriptures varying very little than the Vulgate or the Ethiopic version of the Bible (aside from canonical choices), thematically, the KJV is an adequate translation of the Hebrew Tanakh and the Greek and Aramaic New Testament writings.

It is best to leave that straw man at the door if one wants to discuss the Christian religion or Christian spirituality in earnest.

Now with that qualifier out of the way

As for wisdom from God (which the Psalm in question is speaking about), the fact is that we are to lean to our God given WISDOM (that is if one has connection to God) as opposed to our Human, limited temporally and spatially, perceptions or “reason”.

That is what the psalmist was saying, it is not a hard saying. Fact is, if one truly BELIEVES in a God, if they feel they are WISER than that God, they have no business believing in Him.

I’m a smart guy, but my God, i

Charles
May 3 2007, 1:08PM

I have never believed in God, yes that's right even as a child of 8 my mother and siblings were concerned about my decision not to participate in church. Being raised in a Christian home made my decision even more suspect. Rather than be pulled into a "herd thinking" pattern, I continue to develop a strong faith and understand in myself and of the human race.

Furthermore, I have never spent one waking moment of my life worried about the acceptance and love of a mythical figure called by man "God" “Allah” “Buddha” etc in regard to my sexuality, some misdeed done by me or to me, or the "after-life".

I do understand that many others want and need this presence in their lives; I accept that and wish only the best for all who want to participate in such discourse.

Harry
May 3 2007, 1:46PM

Charles: Right on! Our personal story in this respect sound similar. My mother, although religious never slighted me for not following the religious teachings. My mother simply asks if I'm happy...I reply yes, both she and I are satified

Paul from CT
May 3 2007, 2:03PM

Keith you get it right all the time. We need you. I have similar struggles with religion. The hardest part is to live by faith by not questioning things. I had counsel with a pastor recently who told me that if I followed Christ and fed on his word I would be rid of my homosexuality. I told him that my homosexuality is at the very core of my being and that is very unlikely that I would change. I have not heard from him nor seen him since. I am struggling big time with understanding religion and faith---I still don't get why so many people talk about how faith works and I am still looking, wondering, hoping that I might see an ethereal omen literally in the sky.

Stuffed Animal
May 3 2007, 3:17PM

Anybody who says the King James Version of the Bible is "adequate" and "legitimate" cannot back up those statements. No original source documents for the Bible survive, and the copies that do survive have been corrupted over centuries by human error, inexact translation and selective editing. We have no way of knowing for sure that any Bible translation is "legitimate." As for adequacy, that's a purely subjective judgment. The KJV isn't adequate for me! In its Old English translation especially, the text is opaque and confusing. But the main point I want to make is, true Christians don't worship the Bible, they worship God! The Bible is only humankind's interpretation of God's word . . . and even humankind's interpretation contains no legal condemnation of Lesbian sexuality! That woman who wrote to Keith is fooling herself in more ways than one.

Ostend Street
May 3 2007, 3:28PM

Keith, thanks for opening up the subject relating to religion and reason. I have often wondered why there are black churches on every corner in just about every neighborhood in black communities and our wives, mothers, aunts, grandmothers, and friends pray fervently daily, weekly or anytime and with conviction for their plight and the plight of others and yet I truly wonder if these prayers are being heard. Black folk are in real big trouble as a race. I haven't lost faith but I am truly worried about my people, because we as a people are all in it and we as a people do horrible injustices to each other.

Angiebee
May 3 2007, 3:31PM

The word of GOd is True. If we are Christians we are to take the word for what it says. We must continue to pray and ask God for guidance and understanding. I am a practicing homeosexual, yet I believe in my heart that God did not intend it to be that way. Let us not grow weary in well doing because in due season we shall reap a harvest of blessings if we faint not!!!!!!!

saint james
May 3 2007, 3:36PM

If the text (such as it is ) of scripture is unreliable then ALL OF IT must be deemed so. If not, then how can one be sure of any of it? How can you pick and choose? Again, this is a similar condemnation leveled against the "Bible Thumpers". As for King James: He is not the author of the Bible. He merely commissioned it in English. His insanity is irrelevant as it relates to the reliability of the ancient texts. The Old Testament "Law" for the most part ignores the function of women in almost every aspect of living unless it is connected to men. So, that there is no condemnation of lesbianism should not be suprising. People have to make a choice about the authority of scripture (in my opinion). Either it is the source of God's will for man or it is a "corrupted" document. How can it be both simultaneously? The reason I have come to this conclusion is because this is what the writers of the book had to say about it. Jesus quoted the Old testament many times. Either they heard from God or they were mistaken.

cmoney
May 3 2007, 3:37PM

Ostend: The reason there is a church on every other corner in the Black community is the same reason that there is a liquor store across the street from the churches: they both serve the same purpose of dulling the senses, shutting down reason, covering of pain and misery, sapping the will of the poor people to do what they would logically do--kill their oppressors--while getting themselves rich in the process. Not, that I'm cynical or anything like that...

nyah
May 3 2007, 3:52PM

Keith, I agree with the last statement. We do not share the same vision of faith as the reader. I think that we need to accept that we have different views of Christianity. Let them follow their path, but we will follow our path.

And Keith, I want to thank you for the article on Rev. Braxton. I believe that he and others like him show Christianity in a loving way.

Bye Keith, and dont let that reader take your shine away.

mark
May 3 2007, 4:43PM

These poor lost souls, they continue to believe in fairy tales, and think that they can be "cured" of a normal, natural desire, same sex attraction. The guilt complex of "religion" is too much, but, for the weak minded, and people who just don't see it that everything in the Bible has been told before by others, and, yet, they are all obsessed with one thing, homosexuality, something that is as old as the Bible itself. And, wasn't King James known in private as Queen James?

I guess the poor women who has lost her "desire" for other women will now do like so many of these church goers, have 4 or 5 kids out of wedlock with different men. Sounds harsh, but, I tire of church folks and their hypocrisy in the name of a few coins, and one reason to throw hate, gay life, and seldom do they actually do anything that afflicts the down trodden poor who flock to their pews for "spiritual help"

DJ Black Adam
May 3 2007, 5:16PM

People, just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it is something that the person HAS to do, especially if they don't want to anymore. It is NATURAL for a man to want more than one woman, however; there are some men who decide ONE is enough and ask God to help them in that area.

If a person is gay and is monogomous, that can be argued to be acceptable in their choice as a Christian, if they choose to not be gay and monogomouse, that should be no problem either, if they ask God for help in something they have choosen not to do.

The Captain
May 3 2007, 5:36PM

It is amazing how we try to force faith into subjection to logic and our finite thought processes. Faith is supernatural and a gift from God to us. I do not agree that we need to have a "comprehensive" learning of various religions. This only perpetuates confusion and division. No wonder we have so many people unstable in their faith and wavering in their acknowledgement of God because they are tossed to and fro by all winds of doctrine. There is only ONE sound doctrine, that is Jesus Christ.

In the words of Dr. K.C. Price: For we walk by faith and not by sight!

Piere Gooch
May 3 2007, 5:43PM

This is yours truly PDGOOCH, and frankly I applaud your openess to the issue of faith, now I don't always agree with u lol but I do appreciate the willingness to discuss the issues. Here we go,first, the issue with proverbs. When God set fourth to make the scripture or Bible he set so that every thing would match or compliment each other such as with this scripture in proverbs. The bible declares that Things which are imposible for man are not impossible for God, and also that if any man seeks to follow God he must for sake his own thinking. Why u maybe asking? simply because things that God says may or may not make sense to the mind God Gave us. For example, in the Bible it declares that if one person slaps u on one cheek turn and let him slap u on the other one, now if you are honest you can truly say that this does not make any kind of sense but it has a hidden message of how not to try to defend your own self or to try to defend God for God will defend both himself and you thus we understand in Is.54:17.

Piere Gooch
May 3 2007, 6:35PM

We must come to grips with the fact that there things that we do that are wrong,Pv.14:12& Ez 33:11 and the way we do that is to read word of God or the Bible. Man is broken up ito 3 parts Body, Soul, and Spirit and each gives us a connection to something. The body gives us an awareness of our surroundings, the soul gives us an awareness of emotions and the spirit gives us awareness of God. Now to go Deeper. Nothing is designed to stay the same: seasons, buildings, ideas, inventions, knowledge, and even humans must change. We understand this from Ecclesiastics 3, just cause we might be born ignorant or without knowledge, sick, or whatever else does not mean that God has purposed for us to stay that way Is.55:7-9 & Jer.29:11. if u have any questions concerning what i have said or just me in general just hit me back at min_pdgooch@yahoo.com bye

G-man
May 3 2007, 7:10PM

I had to make a decision about 5 years ago that I would find peace within myself. That peace did not come until I learned to love and accept myself for who I am. This journey begin for me when I purchased the book by Miguel Ruiz called "The Four Agreements". I know many have read or heard about this book. It literally changed the way I looked at myself and the world. It opened me up to myself and now I live by the four agreements which are:
1.Be Impeccable with your word
2.Don't take ANYTHING personally
3.Don't make assumptions
4.Always Do your BEST
This book changed my life and after reading it I slowly begin to put myself back together again. My mind had been torn by all the messages I had heard since a child. By all the preachers and all the biblical passages and all of the hypocritical people I've known in the church over the years. I let the church go, I let many people go who were no longer good for my spirit. I'm left with the "greatest love of all" and that's the love of myself!!

sani
May 4 2007, 3:25AM

Ronnie:
"This woman, like many people who believe they know God and can quote God at a snap drive me up the wall."

I hate it too.

And this resurgence of religion will lead us to the next crusades and ww3. then religion will be banned for 200 years, until everyone forgets again.

DJ Black Adam
May 4 2007, 9:39AM

@Sani:

Wars are predicted on the LOVE OF MONEY not Religion, aside from the cult of greed.

Religion can be used as a manipulator, but so are all other philosophical ideas( i.e. communism / captilism)or even scientific fictions like race.

Look at most wars in history, the root predicate is MONEY.

Shabbat Shalom

SON-OF-A-BISHOP
May 4 2007, 9:44AM

Keith, I had a very traditional minister to reply to one of my emails that I sent out to the black pastors and churches in the ATL entitled, "Sharing the Love of Christ from a Non-Traditional Spiritual Perspective" he told me to "seek His forgiveness (God's) and turn away from homosexuality" I replied:

"If you think about it... no matter whom and how you read the bible there is going to be an interpretation. If you choose to interpret the bible literally, there are going to be some major issues of what was applicable in the bible days and what applies to today.
If the bible is interpreted with illuminated rhema from on high or from spirit and truth, it will always be dependant upon your individual relationship with God.
What does these scriptures mean to you?
Job 11:7, "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?1Corinthians 14:34
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.Titus 2:9 Teach sla

ChicagoChild
May 4 2007, 9:44AM

Praise God!

Get a modern day language Bible if you do not understand it. When I got mine, I surprisingly found it to be quite comical!

There is a part in the Bible where a man (a false prophet) is going around beseeching evil spirits to come out of people. One evil spirit, miffed, says to the man: "I know God and I know Jesus, but WHO are you?" Then he proceeds to give the false prophet the beat down of his life for perpetrating!

Stuffed Animal
May 4 2007, 1:49PM

Chicago Child: I think I know which passage you're talking about. It comes from the book of Acts, doesn't it? The demon-possessed man relieved the false prophets of their clothing! In fact, I think the text implies that he may have had his wicked way with them! They ran away from him naked and screaming. Yes, most comical! You are right on the money when you say everyone should get a modern-day language Bible. When you read it, you can learn the context of Levitican law and quickly understand what millions of fundie preachers don't: Those 600+ ancient prohibitions, including condemnation of homosexual acts, don't apply to Christians! The laws that apply to Christians appear in Matthew 19, and it's quite a short list.

DJ Black Adam
May 4 2007, 2:55PM

@Stuffed animal

Still trying exegetical moves on scriptures you don't find authorative? You're a bigger clown than I first thought...there are 613 mitzvahs of the Torah, the Shema Yisrael STILL applies, and BTW, since you played th punk, I pulled your card here:

http://djblackadam.typepad.com/damnitq/2007/05/religious_clown.html

Maybe next time you'd have the integrity to talk to someone staright out as opposed to the theological fictions you perpetrate.

saint james
May 4 2007, 5:29PM

Stuffed Animal,

This is the 2nd time I have read where you have interjected a homo-erotic subtext where it does not exist. The text in Acts does not imply that there was any "way" had with the seven sons of Sceva. You only ruin what credibility you seek when you do this. You inferred something where it was not implied. Then again, given your view of scripture (the Bible)it is not an authoritative source of truth...

DJ Black Adam
May 4 2007, 5:32PM

@Stuffed:

I deleted that thing, caused to much confusion, go on with your lunacy, another time.

osvaldo
May 5 2007, 2:27AM

I lament for this woman. Only because as a Pentacostal gay man who for years prayed that these "feelings" went away, had the revelation one day the body will always, always desire what God naturally gave it to desire. Her cause and desire for change is societal and not spiritual in nature. She can attempt to convince herself of anything. Soon enough she will realize that she is still a lesbian because her body's desire for the same gender will remind her this. Hopefully, she will have the sense to realize that who she is, is Gods plan.

shindo
May 5 2007, 4:28AM

For every person who's "gone straight," there's someone (or a group) profiting from their suffering. I think we all can argue ourselves blue in the face arguing about what the Bible says about homosexuality, but trying to force people into becoming what they're not can be painful and damaging to them. I'm sorry, I'm against self hatred in any form.

Stuffed Animal
May 5 2007, 4:26PM

"Black Adam" and "St. James": Your snide outbursts are immature and pathetic. BA, I didn't resort to name-calling when I responded to you on my blog. You can lower yourself to that level if you choose, but if you think I'm going to grovel down in the dirt with you, think again. Throw all the Hebrew terms at me that you like; Levitican law still doesn't apply to Christians, and your claims about the KJV are still bogus! You're the one perpetrating theological fictions, with your screwy claim about teachings on Gay monogamy in Scripture. As for you, "Saint", I don't know what grudge you've got against me, but it's made you look foolish. You should've learned the meaning of the word "homoerotic" before you used it! Rape is implied in that cited passage from the book of Acts, not homosexual desire; your homophobia is showing. Maybe you don't draw a distinction between violence and eroticism, but most rational folks do. Chill out, both of you!

DJ Black Adam
May 5 2007, 6:11PM

Stuffed:

I'm not Homophobic, I just don’t like you.

You misrepresented my words and tried to spend that homophobic b/s when I was calling you on your bogus exegesis. Piss off.

Stuffed Animal
May 6 2007, 4:00PM

Awwwww . . . you don't like me? Just because I exposed the baselessness of your arguments and made your inflated Black Adam ego fall down and go "boom"? I'm so hurt! I might just go off somewhere and bawl my eyes out. Then again, I might just not.

Doug Cooper-Spencer
May 7 2007, 7:58AM

Just getting down to catching up on your site...Thanks Keith.

saint james
May 7 2007, 5:23PM

The comment I made about your twisted view of that scripture was not an outburst (since you want to discuss word meanings). It was an observation. I purposefully used the term homoerotic because that is what I believe was in YOUR mind and false interpretation. YOU eroticized the text! Rape is not at all implied. Your inferred it based on your view of the text. Why do I have to have a grudge against you to disagree with you? How hypocritical of you now to lecture me about the difference between homo-eroticism and rape/violence when you described the event in the post in question as COMICAL!!! What was comical about rape? I think your absurdity is showing.

Zeke
May 7 2007, 8:00PM

DJ Black Adam and saint james; ya'll are flat out nuts.

Why do you hang out on a site for same gender loving men? Doing research? Getting your jollies? Or are you just here to save our souls?

Get over yourselves. You are full of shit no matter how much you try to wrap yourselves up in the Bible and no matter how you attempt sound learned.

If Levitical law is applicable today they I assume you don't wear clothes made of blended fabrics; I assume you don't eat clams, mussels, crab, shrimp, lobster, catfish, pork or about 20 other forbidden delicacies; I assume you don't come into contact with menstruating women (including wives); I assume you don't grow mixed crops (corn, beans, peas, squash, watermellon, tomatos) in the same field; I assume you beat your unruly children to death; I assume you follow ALL the rules when dealing with your slaves; I assume that you only sell your daughters into slavery under the proscribed cirumstances.

If you don't do ALL of these things you are a hypocrite.

DJ Black Adam
May 8 2007, 11:24AM

Zeke:

You can jump off the same cliff that Stuffed Animal can take a flying leap from. I am not purporting that ANYONE follow Levitical law, what is it with you imbeciles? Just because one thinks that Scripture is authoritative ya'll act like that makes them homophobic?

Reading is fundemental, and your reading comprehension level is very low if you infered or implied that I was saying "Follow all 613 mitzvahs of the Levitical Law", because I wasn't and didn't.

I really don't care who consenting adults sleep with, I don't care if this is a "same gender loving men" blog, because that really has nothing to do with WHAT I WAS SAYING. Again, try READING as opposed to getting your pre fabricated pro-gay anti evangelical arguement going, I'm not Pat Robertson. If I were for or against "same gender loving men" I wouldn't exegetically use leviticus to make that theological point.

Find another straw man clown, we not the two and I am not the one.

Harry
May 8 2007, 12:35PM

All this fuss over this Biblical non-sense. As some scwabble over this and that verse and chapter and interpretation the "Non-Believer/Evil ones" look and laugh

saint james
May 8 2007, 2:55PM

Zeke, Your vulgar implications not withstanding, I never mentioned Leviticus. I visit this site because it is usually an intelligent place to have informed discussion.
I have a very dear and close family member(s) who is a same gender loving person. I love this person with all of my heart and I do not judge nor do I preach to them. I just love them. I participate in a wide range of discussions here, not just the religious ones. I don't even know why I feel I must defend my presence here to you. You sound just like a bigot. The same thing you assume I am. DJ Black Adam refuted an assertion by a poster that was absolutely incorrect. He (and I) and you have a right to express varied opinions.

jas
May 9 2007, 5:28PM

if you take the bible literally it says a lot of crazy things. i come from a very religious family background, and after hours and hours of arguments and fights we've just come to a point where we agree to disagree. when it comes to religious beliefs its very hard to use reason to argue it. at least in christianity, not sure about buddhism.

edwin greene
May 9 2007, 11:50PM

It is interesting how some black gay men (including several I know) can quote bible scripture "chapter and verse". A recent study reveals that in a number of American cities close to 50% of black gay men may be HIV positive. I believe the attachment so many black gay men have to fundamentalist Christianity has a part in this calamity. So MANY black gay men are so deeply attached to a religious belief system that damns them to hell. Such self-hatred.

I shed my religion (introduced to me by a very religious mother) in my teens and never looked back. I hope I never change.

A writer named Christopher Hitchens has a book out now called "God Is Not Great", which I intend to read. The book is supposedly selling very well. Maybe atheism and agnosticism is getting ready to rise in America.

Tboy
May 11 2007, 9:50AM

"Lean Not Unto Thine Own Understanding".....does not mean, not to think, it could also be interpreted as "You do not know it all..ASK for guidance"
A fundamentalists would take your view...see how you leaned on your own understanding to interpret the phrase. Because I disagreed with you, does this propel you NOT to think....I can also mean BE OPEN.

Peace

Joaquin
May 16 2007, 11:20AM

St. James and Zeke from where does your inspiration to correct Zeke and Stuffed Animal stem? What is your ultimate aim. Would you be kind enough to tell me?

Joaquin
May 16 2007, 3:37PM

I meant to say St. James and DJ Black Adam.

DJ Black Adam
May 18 2007, 1:45PM

Joaquin:

My bone to pick with SA is expanded upon here:

http://djblackadam.typepad.com/damnitq/2007/05/damn_thatreligi.html

Peace

saint james
May 18 2007, 6:09PM

Joaquin,

I did not have a point of contention with Zeke. I replied to his bigoted and rude comments to me and another poster.

My issue with Stuffed Animal is that he implied that a story in the New Testament book of Acts included an incident of homosexual rape. The text to which he referred does not imply that. Stuffed also had the gall to attempt to chastise me about making distinctions between homoeroticsm and rape when in a previous post he described what he viewed as rape; "COMICAL".

Byron
June 10 2007, 3:59PM

I was once a minister in a very affluent church here in the Saint Louis, Mo area. We pratice here a sense of trust and religion is the bed of most of our communities. I a sure many of you will relate in the minority communites. this woman who wrote the letter is doing what she is trained to do. I'm not allow to be upset with her because she is praticeing life to her best ability. I think its important to allow her to pratice her beliefs but for us to pratice ours also. she will either begin to re-evaluate her convictions or not. Converting her or her opinion is only doing what her community does, restrict, restrain and repeat. this is NORMAL for communities probably like hers. Do as you are told, fit the mold and all else will fall in place.

Kimberley
June 29 2007, 6:57PM

Namaste, Keith -

As a Buddhist, I am generally interested (what I call) ramblings of closed-minded supposed Christians. It's very easy for people to follow others without having independently verified. Buddha says, "until you yourselves know...then dispense with those ideas." What I see a lot (generalizing here) with folks in the Black church or on the religious right is that they are willing to take the words of another person without first seeing how those words affect them and their lives. It's sometimes easier to be the sheep than to be the shepherd.

ALWAYSme30
July 1 2007, 2:38PM

the more time we all spend arguing over scriptures the more we all sound hypocrital. everyone is talkin about "love thy neighbor," well no love is being shared on this message board. The church, and society have confused the minds of gay/lesbians all over this world. This struggle is not black/white. It is based on the list of what church/society considers the "norm."

The government, society rulers, and church leaders have their picks and chooses when being gay is ok. For instance the government will say and do whatever during campaigning time to get over vote. Society rulers excepts gay/lesbians when the new t.v. show is #1. and the church leaders will religiously use our gifts and talents in order to have the best choir in the city.

We have been reduced to settling for any amount of acceptance we can get. Now as long as we contine to vote, make the world laugh, have the best make over shows, and keep that choir singing like humming birds, we have paid our dues to the world.

c.w. wyatt
July 6 2007, 12:14PM

This comment is to gays, lesbians, straights,who say they are saved. (Notice, I didn't say Christian.)

I don't think I'm homophobic. I dislike the labels fag, etc. I don't mind differing sexual orientations having equal rights and employment. And I can understand the obvious pain and anger running through this thread.

Likewise, space doesn't permit me to list the many faults and nutty ramblings of folk who claim to be straight,Christian(religious).

In the Bible, I see God's love extending to every single person. I see gay and lesbian, thieves and murderers, fools and whore mongers, can be saved, i.e. accepted by God through Christ.

But I've a problem with gays/lesbians, HETEROSEXUALs, fools; who claim they're saved; but are still fornicating (I'd rather use the street expressive "F" word).

The Bible says: no "F" without marriage. And there's no Biblical model for gay marriage. 1Cor.6:9-10 makes sexual orientation irrelevant. Obedience is better than sacrifice/religion.

C.W. Wyatt

VIncent
July 12 2007, 12:03AM

As a Buddhist, I never understand why Gay Christian suffering from themselves, or why mainstream Christian hate gay people so much.

I had learn to see beyond sex, race, rank, species growing up in a Buddhust family. Animal or rock, gay or straight, black or white,all deserve to be loved and to be repected with great deal.

Sometimes Christian church's behavior make me feel that they are so childish. It makes me wonder, if real peace does not come from that religion, what good is that?

DJ Black Adam
July 13 2007, 5:44PM

Well I enjoyed hearing from the Buddhist. They seem very clear on some spiritual truths that go beyond and across "religions".

I wish that the so-called "evangelical right" would grasp "self governance". It is apparent that they miss the overall concept that Jesus was trying to communicate, that being spiritual rebirth and repentance, all directed towards "self". I have found in my observations, that those who focus on governing everyone else's lives, lack self governance and are afraid to deal with the own wretchedness, no matter what faith they proclaim.

I respect that with the Buddhist self governance is focused on, I pray that those who have accepted the form and fashion of the "traditions" of the "religion" of Christianity, exchange those things to follow the example of Christ and live and demonstrate His essential message, the Gospel of the Kingdom of God in power and in deed, for such is truly the Fellowship of the Mystery.

Shalom

Mitch
July 17 2007, 7:35PM

The black on black homicide rate is off the charts and not going down in any of our communities!
Other races aren't killing each other for sport.
We hate ourselves from slavery times. Evil, white slave owners who claimed to be christian justified slavery of our ancestors because of white superiority.
The republicans (bush 1 & 2, Barbara too, and crack and AIDS daddy Reagan) cry christian dogma and hate all the time. No wonder there's so much confusion.
Pray for black and gay self love!

Pastor Burnett
November 12 2007, 3:23PM

Now, I wanna first say that I have no problem promoting and standing all the gay, homo or lesbian men and women rights and freedoms as it pertains to secular society. No gay male or woman should ever be discriminated against or denied equal and fair treatment under the law as it pertains to secular life and living. HOWEVER, when it comes to the CHURCH you've got another thing coming. The CHURCH DOES NOT belong to any of us although GOD has called HIS men and women to oversee it or OCCUPY it until HE comes. In the same manner he has given the church the ability to REMIT sins which is the ONLY seperation between Gos and man. The reason that homosexuality isn't an issue in most cultic religions is because SIN is not a problem with most of them. SIN is the ONLY problem outlined in the bible and that's manifested through UNBELIEF. UNBELIEF causes men and women to reject truth and live lifestyles that are ungodly and unbiblical. Homosexuality is merely an extension of unbelief. It is condemned in both Old and New

Pastor Burnett
November 12 2007, 5:24PM

As I was saying. The activity is condemned throughout the bible JUST as HETROSEXUAL sex outside of a marital context is condemned. Galations 5:19 lists the "works of the FLESH" the first 4 named cover EVERY sexual SIN known to man whether hetrosexual or homosexual or deviant sexual activities...it's all covered. The problem is that YOU don't WANT TO BELIEVE that you are wrong, so you bash the church, talk down the preachers, and provided emotional excuses for your SINS and claim that you think critically...THAT'S A FARCE AND YOU ARE STILL IN YOUR SINS! God can change ANY man or woman. II Cor. 5:17 yet means that your old NATURE of Sin which includes ANY sexual strongholds CAN BE BROKEN AND YOU CAN BE CHANGED. The reason that you don't want to hear that is that you LOVE your sin and a man CANNOT LOVE SIN and Love God. ONE MASTER MUST DIE and the other served. www.bethelburnett.blogspot.com...Don't fight the church, for in it you are fighting God and any human LOOSES that battle. The church WILL STAND!

FRE
November 21 2007, 1:27AM

Here is a quotation from the website of djblackadam:

The fact is simple, you AS A CHRISTIAN can’t pick and choose what you wish to accept from scripture and reject the authority and integrity of scripture, that is, if you profess to be a Christian as this fellow does.

I bet that djblackadam picks & chooses. We all do, it's just that some of us acknowledge it while others, although not acknowledging it, deny others the right to pick & choose. That's not exactly honest.

All of us who are familiar with the Bible know that it prohibits receiving interest on money, yet we all do it if we have a bank account. We also know that the Bible prohibits wearing a garment made with 2 kinds of material, prohibits permitting 2 kinds of animals to mate (such as a donkey & a horse to get a mule), etc. etc.

We need clear criteria for picking & choosing. I use the Summary of the Law wherein Jesus commands us to love God & to love our neighbor. Rules not supported by that are not binding. Simple!

DJ Black Adam
November 23 2007, 2:18PM

@Fre:

Actually I don’t “pick and choose” I either do or don’t. Meaning that when I am in sin, I am, scripture is NOT wrong.

You talk of mitzvahs of the Torah, as you wrote:

“All of us who are familiar with the Bible know that it prohibits receiving interest on money, yet we all do it if we have a bank account. We also know that the Bible prohibits wearing a garment made with 2 kinds of material, prohibits permitting 2 kinds of animals to mate (such as a donkey & a horse to get a mule), etc. etc."

Well, you should also know the Torah was fulfilled with his coming, as such, we seek the Kingdom of God now, picking a choosing mitzvahs o the Law that were given to the Hebrews and trying to willy nilly apply them to those who are Christians and not Hebrews is silly.

So if you wish to be adult about it, and discuss the issue email me, djblackadam@yahoo.com, otherwise, I suggest you quote me in context or not at all.

Have a nice day.