"No Snitching'" Rule Makes No Sense

Brian
April 25 2007, 8:03AM

I just watched the interview on a different website (missed it the night it originally aired) and was just appalled – to say the least. You know there’s a real sickness in the hip-hop community when a human being – and I use these words in the loosest terms – can say that if he knows a serial killer is living next door to him, he’d ‘move’ rather than turn him in. Just when you think you’ve heard it all….
The really sad fact of the matter is that hip-hop and it’s culture dictate so much of what goes on with African-American youth that reinforcing a ‘no snitching’ policy in our community does nothing more than tear us down further. If you see a crime committed, it’s ‘cool’ not to say anything? That’s just insane. What if it’s your sister/mother/aunt who’s raped or your cousin/uncle/brother who’s the victim of a senseless crime? Is it still cool not to ‘snitch’? How juvenile and self-destructive.
Unfortunately, these artists are held in great regard in their communities, after seeing this, I really can’t u

Robert Jones, Jr.
April 25 2007, 8:11AM

According to The Smoking Gun website, Cam'Ron certainly doesn't practice what he preaches:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0419072giles1.html

-Bobby

Join This is The Diaspora; for Black men with Big heads:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thisisthediaspora/

cmoney
April 25 2007, 8:44AM

First of all, Keith--get out of South Carolina! Secondly, I have come to expect very little these Minstrel Show, shucking and jiving, Uncle Tom, coons known as Rap Stars. These people are totally undermining our community to make a buck. to me, they are worse than drug dealers and pimps because they have an international stage. They are completely dishonest and phoney in that most of them don't even live in "the hood", are not poor, never were poor, are not thugs, drug dealers or pimps, yet they portray that image and glorify it for so that people who actually live in the hood suffer even more. We need to take back our culture, community and image from these modern day performers in Black Face and their White corporate masters. We have been complicit in this self destruction for far too long.

Andy
April 25 2007, 9:16AM

From yesterday's San Francisco Chronicle, whioch shows how this "gansta" mentality really works and how life means nothing with that "code of ethics:"

"Dr. Andre Campbell, testifying before a Board of Supervisors committee meeting Monday, said gun violence has become an epidemic among the city's African American boys and young men.

"The rising tide of violence is staggering," he said, adding that while African Americans make up 6.5 percent of the city's residents, they comprise at least 70 percent of gunshot victims. "I characterize that as a genocide."

jazzi
April 25 2007, 9:20AM

Brian, what website did you watch the interveiw on? It aired Sunday night on "60Minutes" but I missed it.

This hip hop thing has gone from worse to.....I don't know what! There was a time when you could listen to the music & get something from it. A lot of those who started hip hop were poor. They came from the hood but they didn't glorify the negativity they saw. The music was a way to escape. It was about coming together & having fun or in the case of groups like Public Enemy & BDP, you were "edu-tained". Now, everyone is trying to out do they next man to see who can be the most violent, sexist, or say the dumbest thing. Thats why it made no sense to me when everyone was getting up in arms about Imus & calling for him to be fired when the real battle is in our own communities. Why worry about Imus when you've got jerks like Cam'ron saying that if he knew a serial killer was living next door he'd just move? Is it possible to say something that stupid? Maybe the serial killer should pay Cam'ron a visit first & spare him the expense.

titi
April 25 2007, 9:40AM

DEAR LORD, ONE OF THE MANY SELF-DISTRUCTIVE RULES WE INVENTED FOR OURSELF. "NO SNITCHING" IS AN INVITATION TO GULLIBIITY AND SUBMISSION.IT IS THE WORST FORM OF PASSIVITY AND COWARDLINESS..IF HIP HOP ROUGHNECKS WANT TO PLAY ROUGH THIS IS WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO SHOW OFF OR ARE THEY TOO COWARDS TO SNITCH???

Derrick from Philly
April 25 2007, 10:24AM

This HipHop generation has managed to do in 30 years what activist white supremacists couldn't accomplish in the first 130 years after slavery: the destruction of a significant segment of the black population of the United States. Sometimes I fear that only a major catastrophe could change the doomed course that so many young black folks are headed on. Unfortunately, the source of that catastrophe may come from an deadly enemy that gay people have been familiar with for the last 26 years. I know it's a horrible thought, but sometimes it takes horrific moments in history to make people change their way of thinking/living. Us homos surely know about that.

rockinrob
April 25 2007, 10:40AM

IMO, it's simply disgusting and blatant ignorance at all-time low.

PEACE.

Mike
April 25 2007, 10:48AM

To me this phenomenon has an historic precedence from post slavery and pre and post civil rights culture in the black community. Snitchin on our people was a death warrant or a guilty until proven innocent defense and trip to jail, It was hell. You were guilty and no one trusted the police because there weren't many if any blacks and if there was one he was either a token or informant sort to speak. We could not trust the police and no matter how small the crime, every violation thought of was included on your booking/prosecution and the time served was outrageous. We must now try to Educate our community on why it is now appropriate to snitch, inform and/or provide justice to our brothers and sisters. We now have black and white cops who fight for us not against us as in days of the past. When we don't snitch it just empowers the criminal to do more and be even bolder and even if you move to get away, you new neighborhood may be his new or existing territory.

Andy
April 25 2007, 11:12AM

@Derrick, this has to be the worst generation of blacks in the 400 years of this country. They have been blessed with more rights and freedoms than any other group of African Americans, and have contributed the least and made hating black people easier than ever before by the whole world. The future for these inner city kids is bleak at best.

MidwestGuy
April 25 2007, 11:12AM

Instead of skimming the surface we need to get to the root of this evil which has, in some form or another, been a part of the black community way before hip-hop. I remember the neighbor who EVERYONE in the family knew was a drug dealer. I remember the uncle who EVERYONE knew abused his wife. I remember the cousin who EVERYONE knew was a gang member. All of which have been allowed to exist. As a community, we tend to turn a blind eye to most things negative which is why we are generally reactive as opposed to proactive.

There is a geniune distrust of police (rightfully so) in inner city neighborhoods. It's much easier to suggest what we would do when we/our families could possibly be the target of retaliation. Sadly, retaliation is real.

As usual, the media will always pick the less enlightened/often criticized among us to represent our collective thoughts. Cam has been a fool way b4 now. CNN chose him for a reason just like the media chose SNOOP to respond to IMUS.

Luther
April 25 2007, 11:53AM

Wow, Midwest, what a scary place you must have grew up in! I have never known any of the people you describe, and I grew up in New Orleans. But, why is this Cameron a "fool?" And, what should the people stuck to a life of despair in the 'hood do to rid themselves of the cowards who commit crimes and prey on the elderly and frail in your opinion???

Derrick
April 25 2007, 12:11PM

The tumultuous relationship between the police and some African-American community’s is, supposedly, the reason why some of these communities have adopted a “no snitching” position. Also, the fear of retaliation is another reason cited for this position. However, I don’t see why these particular reasons should render us and our communities powerless. Here’s why:

1) Though I vehemently disagree with much of what Russell Simmons says, he is correct to suggest that African-American communities that experience, or have experienced aggression from their respective police departments must have a dialogue. Because many people read police aggression as an extension of the state and, thus, an extension of racism, the distrusting of police is attached to history. This is the dialogue that has to take place between communities and police departments before any real changes can be made in these relationships. At the same time, we must point to the fact that many people in the community do not like police prese

Derrick from Philly
April 25 2007, 12:15PM

MidwestGuy:
Eventhough we usually disagree on every topic that Keith brings up, I respect your skill at written debate and your ability to find the strong evidence to support your point of view.

Everything you said about the generation(s) which preceeded the HipHop folks is true EXCEPT we did not admire those who fucked up our community the way this HipHop younger generation seems to. Drug dealers were not heroes in the black community in the 1970s (pimps, unfortunately, were another story). Our music didn't glorify drug dealers (pimps, unfortunately, were another story). Most importantly, we didn't glorify the killing of other black folk. There was gang violence, but it was seen as bad by most young black folks--atleast that's what I remember. One on one, most of these young folks aren't bad, but in a group they are Hellhounds. But as you said, that's nothing new. But the level of violence and self-hatred is new.

Charles
April 25 2007, 12:35PM

In far too many cases, the most eye-catching examples of "Black men" in our modern communities are those who are unspoken collaborators in the maintenance of the system of our oppression and exploitation.

During slavery, a similar phenomenon did not create similar confusion. A Black overseer wielding the whip did not change the social conditions one iota for the majority of our black people. No slave was fooled into thinking that the creation of Black overseers was an objective improvement for the enslaved majority. Everyone knew the Black overseer had cast his lot with the slave master in exchange for personal gain. The Black overseer was a servant at best, a flunky and traitor at worse.

The rappers, hip hop moguls and some athletes are selling a dangerous message in order to keep the “black community” from catching on to what they are truly doing; which is stuffing their pockets with the money from our low self-esteem and even lower social status.

Derrick
April 25 2007, 12:36PM

continued from above.....
police presence because they want to continue whatever criminal activity they are engaged in.
As a person from a working class neighborhood and very diligent about not surrendering my neighborhood to gang members, which is directly tied to drug dealing, my community decided to resist. If we even suspect a potential trouble house in my neighborhood, we put the police on them. This is how we’ve managed to keep our working class neighborhood—emphasis on the work “working.”

2) As Audre Lorde warned us: “your silence will not protect you.”

yeahisaidit
April 25 2007, 12:41PM

PLEASE...in many cases poor black people have been reporting crimes in this country to the police, what happens? NOTHING! Black people and their culture have been against the law ever since they were brought to this country, that was part of the plan people! ...and now to hear ad nauseaum that it's solely Lil' Kim, Snoop and hip hop's fault is a one-sided observation and drowns out the actual COMPLEXITY of things...the whole "if only Black people, especially rappers, would act right" cry is becoming deafening from all sides...where's any perspective in all of this? many people sound as if there's only a right or wrong to things like this and nothing in between the two to be considered that might just provide some of the progression they say they desire...

Aaron
April 25 2007, 12:45PM

Luther, I grew up in North Philly and what Midwest says is absolutely true. We all (or a great majority of us) knew who did what or could find out who but so could the police. Some police were still from the culture prior to civil rights movement up to 80's that believed Black people did not deserve protections and the expediency of service delivered to our white brethren. I grew up in that as did people like Lil Kim and many of these rappers. Police forces only recently increased their recruitment of people of color.
I dont agree with the ignorant behind statement that you would not report a murderer or any violent offender to the police but I understand where the mentality comes from.
We need to re-educate our young people and old fools that a snitch is a PARTICIPANT in the crime they are telling on to get a lesser sentence not a decent person trying to get crap out of their neighborhood.

Robert
April 25 2007, 12:48PM

Here in Oakland/SF (especially in SF) whenever there's a murder of a young black man, there is a big crowd of folks from the neighborhood rhubarbing for the press about 'why don't the police do something about all this!'

I sometimes fantasize about confronting a crowd like that and asking them, 'What do you say when you see someone wearing a 'Stop Snitch'n' t-shirt? As many unsolved murders happen in broad daylight in front of people, must not be much snitchin' going on.'

bubba
April 25 2007, 1:05PM

Russell Simmons made his usual apologist claims to Anderson Cooper, making me want to wretch. Can these people be so stupid to forget that failure to cooperate with law enforcement only exacerbates their treatment of your community? Simmons says black folks from poor neighborhoods have a long history of distrust against the establishment. Fine. But the police don't make you poor. And poor doesn't equal stupid. Therefore many at the bottom of the economic chain are informed enough to know who to vote for on election day, to make the changes they want. It's not bad enough that the rhetoric encourages an embrace of and contribution to criminal culture. Now the experience of delinquency isn't complete unless normally upstanding citizens turn a blind eye to the infractions of others. Screw the basic order of a good society! Simmons and Co. just want to explain it away with no real solutions or responsibility. Just like his call to remove profanity from the airwaves. Rap has had "clean" radio versions for years!

MidwestGuy
April 25 2007, 1:09PM

>Luther

IMO Cam is a fool because mostly everything I've seen him involved in had to do w/money. His beef is money-motivated. His concern w/snitching seems money-motivated. Hell he was shot over in DC a couple of years back and his only concern was that the attacker didn't steal his jewelry. He was a fool for even getting on national tv and saying the dumb crap he did. Most people said Snoop was stupid in his response but at least there was a lot of truth to it. He spoke on the type of women that are bitches and ho's (not excusing the language) which IMO was not an indictment on all women. Cam is drawing no distinctions. So that's why I think he's a fool.

I believe the people in the "hood" are going to have to "sacrifice" (meaning put their lives on the line) and that's a very hard thing for anyone to do.

Mikey--He Likes It
April 25 2007, 1:29PM

Certainly hip hop is not to blame for all that is wrong in the black community, but it has exacerbated the violence, obscene language, misogyny, materialism, thug lifestyle, mean spiritedness, self hatred, underachieving, and homophobia that's plaguing our young people in the inner cities. And just because EVERYONE knows someone may be doing something wrong and says nothing doesn't make it RIGHT!! They may have their reasons for not telling but that reason shouldn't be because the hip hop community believes "snitchin" isn't hip.

Shabaka
April 25 2007, 2:02PM

Jeez!! Grown ass folks go on national TV and actually spit out such garbage? Unbelievable!

ToddyEnglish
April 25 2007, 2:12PM

I can't believe this. This repulses me. Maybe I've lead a sheltered existence but, growing up, something like "Stop Snitching" was a foreign concept to me. In my neighborhood if the brothas thumped their music too hard in the car some little old lady would be on the phone with the cops. We had civic clubs and everything where I grew up. So, as a young African American the mere prospect of seeing someone gunned down in the street and turning a blind eye to it would border on the insane.

I honestly hate rap and hip hop culture now. Whether these artists want to admit it or not they hold too much influence. And it is not taking our youth any higher. I used to defend rap but I can't anymore. The true artists have gone the way of the Dodo bird while we are continually promoting trash talkers who are helping to make our next generation into degenerates. Well, they are succeeding better than any racist white man ever could. This is Willie Lynch in fine form.

DownSouth
April 25 2007, 2:20PM

Much of the distrust the black community has against the police has to do with the bizzarre social policies of the WAR ON DRUGS.

A vast majority of Crimes, Murders and Imprisonment(probably about 50% plus) is linked to prohibiting people from doing what they want and putting what they want into their own bodies.

Breakin Down Doors, Raiding, lying, framing, sabotaging, entrapment are just some of the backwash that comes down from law enforcement onto our communities.

Nothing has damaged black people more in this era than this one social policy.

I not sure why Keith with such libertarian Values didn't catch on to that idea and elaborate on it.

Here is a link to those who are uninformed on what brought about this no snitcin business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LayaGk0TMDc

Luddite
April 25 2007, 2:22PM

cmoney, titi, and Derrick from Philly: As always you guys have outstanding insight. Sadly many so called "rappers" are nothing but minstrel shows with very damaging messages for Black youth. Maybe I'm just feeling my 47 years, but there was a time when Black youth had music that was fun. Not "music" to validate murder, drug dealing, disrespecting women, and telling non criminals not be a snitch. Such as:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj3Vj2qETY8

Charles
April 25 2007, 2:29PM

The hard truth is Blacks in the inner city will have to decide just how much they want things to change. The community leaders, churches and police are tapped out; their resources and efforts have been met with a brick wall.

All people will have to decide what they really want and how they want to truly live. There is an element of no-snitching that was present in the Virginia Tech shooting. There is nothing more disheartening than hearing what people knew after things go sour.

Furthermore, there are many poor areas in the Hispanic, Asian and yes even White communities that would NEVER allow this "no-snitching" policy to be marketing by their own people in the media because to do so gives it more power to destroy.

We all have to be strong to make our world safer.

VERB
April 25 2007, 2:39PM

@ Midwset Guy, Derrick (NOT from Philly) and yeahisaidit...

I think you all have summed up My feelings so I need not repeat but I will echo the sentiment of the media choosing idiots to represent U/us, either in hip hop or the "Black community." Cam's an idiot, always has been always will be. I wish there was another voice present to speak on behalf of the rest of U/us in the hip hop community, like Chuck or Kris.

MidwestGuy, please email Me @ verb@spicypimps.com. Thanx!

MidwestGuy
April 25 2007, 3:06PM

DPhilly I grew up in the 80's so my perspective is different than most of you. In my hood drug dealers were admired for their material possessions and gang members were feared/revered. The issue that you speak of is "balance." I say this because I can go back and pull "ol skool" music that spoke of sex and drugs. Balance is the key. The assertion by many old heads is that these things didn't happen and that's not true. If it were then you would have to believe that we came out of the womb w/the intent on destroying our communities. So it had to have begun w/us. Sounds a bit far-fetched don't u think?

Toddy Yes you have been removed. In a lot of the inner cities that sort of civic-mindedness no longer exists. Contrary to popular belief, banning Hip-hop is not the cure. Believing such would suggest that if rappers stopped rapping, people would climb higher and stop killing. Sounds a bit far-fetched don't u think?

nahtan serious
April 25 2007, 5:31PM

Ok so if they did not talk to Camron who could they have picked ?? lets see

1.Half dollar
2.Sneaky dogg
3.Lil Flim Flam
4.Foxxy Crazy beige
5.Treena slut
6. Puff Pappi\
7. The Lame
8.Trick Pimp daddy

who...

seems to me there are far more like Camron than like Chuck D or Nas.

This is the 21st century folks ...slavery and Jim crow no longers exists physically ( but mental slavery is still clearly here). I think some of you are hurt that the truth about Hip hop is finally being exposed. I think that those of us who never bought into that concept and who have always felt that education AND RESPECT for our history was paramount, that making proactive steps to get ourselves out of the vicious cycle that exists in the ghettos and that working within the system and understanding that we have to do it for ourselves is the way forward, saw this coming and are therfore not surprised!

Too far left is right and too far right is left!

qtmia
April 25 2007, 6:06PM

PROMOTING "NO SNITCHING" AMONG PEOPLE IS JUST SICK!!!

HIP-HOP ARTISTS HATE THEMSELVES AND DON'T VALUE ANYTHING SENSIBLE EXCEPT MONEY AND MATERIAL THINGS....

Lois
April 25 2007, 6:24PM

That's what it is, mental slavery in 2007. In this bold effort not to blend in and conform to the rest of the country, this mind set of ignorance is rampant, and the only ones who are suffering the most is the huge underclass. With the arrival of immigrants who embrace the so called American dream, work hard and follow the rules, even when they are treated poorly by the system, and the young blacks who don't and won't, they are doomed to jails and death. Just a sick pathological self hate.

VERB
April 25 2007, 6:40PM

The no-snitching thing is utterly ridiculous. I doubt that any clear-thinking person would dispute that but as Midwest Guy pointed out earlier, it's nothing new in many communities. I can't tell you how many times I've heard folks outside of HH culture say that they don't like to get involved---often stating "I just mind my bidnuss." In another post, I commented on how the "no snitching" thing begins in childhood when parents tell kids about telling on a sibling. They may chastise that sibling but it's not far-fetched for that parent to also say "you always tellin' on somebody" and "nobody likes a tattle-tale." It's BS like that which sets the tone for situations later in life.

I'm with jazzi. Maybe that serial killer Cam'ron spoke of will hit him first to spare him the trouble of moving.

VERB
April 25 2007, 7:41PM

@ nahtan (& his kind)

Laughable poppycock. Looks like you bought into the okey-doke, My friend. I doubt you can dispute that the media utilizes every chance to put uneducated/uncouth people of color on TV every chance they get. It's the overlay for the underplay and unfortunately some folks are buying into it. I'm not saying there are no bad apples in HH. Besides KRS & Chuck there are others, you just don't know who they are becuz of the labels' love of making money by pushing negative values (popular among all of America). I'm pretty sure that you & others know nothing of Boots Riley, Hieroglyphics, Immortal Technique or even Posdenous. If you did, you might have a different outlook. It's ignorance on your part but not stemming from mere stupidity. It stems from simply not knowing any better. You only know what's played on radio/TV. After that, you're clueless. It's not your fault; W/we have greedy record execs to thank for that. (more below...)

VERB
April 25 2007, 9:24PM

more @ nahtan...

What irks many of U/us is the fact that HH is being criticized as a whole. No one can dispute there are issues, but when you generalize that way it sounds idiotic. Gangsta rap & commercial HH is partially to blame but not all HH. Maybe you don't know any better; there are differences. To degrade HH in such a (no offense) uneducated manner shows no support to your statements other than you just don't like it cuz you just don't. It's like telling Me about a movie and you only saw the second half---the info is limited. To not recognize that every rapper is different is equivalent to the myth that says all Blacks are lazy and stupid.

**BTW, you referred to Trina as a slut. While she's not My cup, it seems as though you were just backing up what Snoop said last week about some women being anything other than a lady. You and Snoop in the same camp?

Alan
April 25 2007, 9:35PM

Not a "hip-hop" fan, don't even know what the term means, but, they are only part of a bigger problem, black folks just don't seem to like being black. My only issue with the mentality is that obeying the law is wrong, going to school is wrong, good grief, speaking proper English is wrong.

Like the one article said, self inflicted genocide will kill blacks in this country, something 400 years of oppression couldn't. It would not make too much sense to blame it all on music, which we all know is powerful, but, a lack of self esteem, and the one thing that p-o's me more than anything is that the negative images are sent around the world, use to just be kept in the community, now everyone knows how foolish some segments of us are. Keep this stuff in the community, like other groups do, why put it all out in the open for the rest of the world to shake their heads and say, "I told you, they are nothing but animals."

Mitch
April 26 2007, 12:05AM

Don't let our communities turn into Iraqs and Beiruts where sadism, masochism, jealousy and pain rule!

montell
April 26 2007, 12:24AM

Someone else made this point in a different media outlet, but really there's little difference b/w folks not snitchin in the hood & the likes of Cheney, Libby, Gonzalez, etc. not snitchin. The only difference is skin color & money. That's it.

Certainly I care if folks are dying in the hood b/c people are afraid to go to the police b/c the police can't protect witnesses (they just can't). However, please let's not think that white folks snitch each other out all the time b/c they don't.

yeahisaidit#1
April 26 2007, 12:26AM

^^no one is saying obeying the law is wrong...but when laws become more important than people that's a real problem...and if you're not a hip hop fan or even know what it means then you are clueless as to the reaches of it's mentality...hip hop is an entire WORLD...and just like the world there's everything in it positive and negative (you can't have one without the other), conscious and unconscious, it is a mirror that reflects the countless images it sees...to try and dismiss it as a whole is immposible, to explore it to some extent to gain perspective before condemning it or blaming it entirely for what ails the Black community and the world at large is just too convenient and easy, not just an art, it's also a business, in different packages, colors, shapes and sizes for whoever wants what, religious rap music is currently one of the fastest growing segments of the market...

edvince
April 26 2007, 4:27AM

You have to accept that hip-hop is a residue of America's apartheid era which in turn forces self-hate within the black community, much like the same self-hate that exists in gay communities due to heterosexism and homophobism. I'm in agreement that no snitching element is a grave danger to society. On the other hand police departments also practice a no snitch rule called BLUE ODE OF SILENCE as witness in the horrible incident where NYC cops sodomized an innocent black man.

nahtan serious
April 26 2007, 5:20AM

verb you are taking all that I wrote literally ( some of it was tongue in cheek), I am well aware that there are a variety of artists in HH just like thre is a great diversity in the black community. But why do you expect NBC CBS or whoever to go search out these respectable HH artist when you have passively allowed the minstrels and buffons to be representative of a culture to the masses ( and in particular white america). Years ago when HH was changing for the worse why weren't you ouit there protesting and higlighting these buffoons. And by the way Trina may not be a slut, she just plays one on TV ( all the time)... but I wasn't talking specifically about her! I was talking about what personifies a STAR in hip hop today! Please read the entire post next time!

MidwestGuy
April 26 2007, 8:41AM

I'm sitting here in amazement trying to understand WHY would someone who (I'm assuming) has a problem w/hip-hop (sexism, misogyny) would allow themeselves to utter the term SLUT when referring to a black sistah. I am completely blown. At first I thought "was it in jest?" Then I said "did he/she really mean that?" I ended w/saying that it doesn't matter.

If this isn't hypocrisy at it's finest, I don't know what is. This person is no different than the "minstrels" that they apparently in opposition to. You have lowered yourself to the level of the same trash that you are so critical of.

Credibility shot to hell!
Excuse is none!
Clownish, pecksniffian, poltroon you are!
Disgusting!!!!

cmoney
April 26 2007, 9:42AM

Midwest Guy & Verb: Do you care more about the survival of Hip Hop, a mere art form, than your people in the Black community? Just wondering, because I can't understand why you are so vehement in your support of what is clearly garbage. I don't care how good the beat is, how much money is being made, or what ever it is that attracts people to this, but there is no excusing messages of violence, hate, sexism, homophobia and obstruction of justice when the effect is so clearly devastating to our community. I think your priorities are whack if you believe supporting the Hip Hop lifestyle is more important than the lives and safety of our people.

nahtan serious
April 26 2007, 9:55AM

MWG ..Last time I checked Trina name was spelt TRINA. It obviously did not take to many brain cells to connect TRINA the rap artist with what I wrote. I wonder why? So educate me man what has she done/performed or said that makes what I wrote so UPSETTING to you. Clearly you see perpetuating a negative image of women in HIP HOP as entertainment so the fact that made a jest about some caricatures ( such as the SLUT) is offensive . While when these same women talk about blowing men and welcome to the candy shop etc etc... thats great...

So SAD that you hip hop apologists dont recognise the damage that you are encouraging!

Brad
April 26 2007, 10:31AM

Wow. THis is really informative blog. Keep it up lads. I'm a hip-hop fan but never knew so much's going on.

VERB
April 26 2007, 11:07AM

@ cmoney

(sigh) I must ask, does it take outlawing HH to save U/us? Black ppl would then be free of oppression & able to have ideal lives? Of course not. It's thoughtless to insinuate such.

A good beat? LOL... Sorry to bust your bubble but I don't purchase radio music, wear gold teeth, big chains, murder ppl and and believe in not snitching. I'm a music collector, enthusiast & operate My own net radio station. I listen to many artists from all genres, from Doug Carn to Terry Callier to Bembe Segue. I haven't listened to radio in 10+ years. Good beat? Puleez. Unlike most, I understand concepts in production and arrangement. My scope of music is far wider than the average. In fact, I'm quite the music snob. In terms of music, I can firmly w/out a doubt say, "Don't come for Me." So when ppl generalize about HH as a whole, I already know their musical knowledge is limited. I'm simply making valid counterpoints to your..."points." Don't like being challenged intellectually? (sigh)

P.S.

Did you say "whack?"

cmoney
April 26 2007, 11:48AM

So you DO care more about Hip Hop than the Black community. It came through loud and clear. The artists you cite are nobodies no one ever heard of or will ever care about. They are irrelevant to the discussion we are having about the mainstream Hip Hop that people LISTEN TO and that influence our community. Maybe if you got out of your bubble, maybe listened to the radio, you would understand the degenerate music the rest of the world is talking about. I repeat, WHACK!

sarah
April 26 2007, 11:49AM

Just what's the difference between calling a woman a "b*&^h, h*, or s%$t? They all suck and are demeaning to women, be it in a song, or everyday talk.

And, add me to the list of those who didn't know there was such a thing as "good rap," I thought that would have required talent, and sorry, I haven't seen that since the late 1980's. Boy's with gold teeth, baggy pants hanging down thier butts, and ink on thier bodies they call tatoos, just don't do it for me, but, from what I've heard, those young white boys just love it, and I guess a few gay men, since they are here defending it as if they are on Chavis payroll, and can't seem to see why women might be offended by it.

Don't get me wrong, its nasty for me, but, its still legal, and if people view young black men in a negative light because of it, not my issue, and don't complain when the popo stops you based on a rapper sterotype, or people stalk you in the store, or a cab won't pick you up, or a bar asks you for 5 ID's, since rap is just fun.

MidwestGuy
April 26 2007, 11:51AM

Cmoney I have yet to see anyone posting (in opposition) even remotely suggest that they are any less concerned about the state of the black community than the next. Nor have I seen ANYONE (vehemently or otherwise) support the negativity in areas of hip-hop. If you can pinpoint ANY poster who has done this I would appreciate it. This is online so it shouldn't be hard to do. I'm doubtful that you will find such.

Maybe the issue has more to do with your comprehensive reading skills than it does the existing defenders of h-hop! When I have an issue w/something or someone, I will at least make an effort to do my due diligence so that I am informed on the subject. That basic element seems to be missing from your arguments. Can you quote recent lyrics from hip-hop artists that you deem homophobic? Not suggesting that they don't exist. I just think that some of these arguments are ridiculously contrived.

Derrick from Philly
April 26 2007, 12:15PM

"...their musical knowledge is limited..."

"No, Verb, our musical knowledge OF HIPHOP is limited. There must be Hiphop enthusiasts who know very little of Jazz, Blues, European Classical, Country, Early R&B, etc., and can't see the value in that music. We all have our limitations, and I admit a genre of music can be so repulsive to some people that it is difficult for us to even listen to it. So, yes, it may be a case of not knowing about the full range of HipHop music; but only the negative influences highlighted by media. But we also believe a very powerful style of HipHop music (Gangsta' Rap) seems to contribute to/glorify the destructive behavior of too many young black folks-- some whites and Latinos too.

Hell, I'll put Duke Elllington's, I mean, Billy Strayhorn's genius up against every Hiphop artist in the world put together as one entity! (I know, that wasn't necessary, but I just couldn't help it.)

cmoney
April 26 2007, 12:28PM

midwestguy: Look up Ludacris' "Move bitch get out the way" or whatever the actual title is. One of the rappers on the song (not Ludacris) uses the term "faggot motherfuckers". I know this and remember it distinctly because I complained to WKYS in DC when it bleeped out "motherfucker", but let the word "faggot" go out over the air, as if faggot should not be offensive. Eventually they bleeped out both words in the song. You also seem to argue (if I might paraphrase) that all of this violent and criminal behavior pre-dated Hip Hop, so why blame hip-hop? To which I respond, what good does it do to continuously promote bad behavior? It sure as hell doesn't help and it definitely is making matters worse.

VERB
April 26 2007, 12:44PM

@ nahtan

I must point out that Trina is indeed a "busy" girl (to put it kindly) but the point is that calling her out of her name is the same as Snoop referring to women in a derogatory manner. He just does it in song while you make blog comments. No one is saying that she has the most intellectual commentary so just stop that. We're not defending her, BUT...W/we ARE defending her right to free speech. Don't get the two confused; understand the difference. Based on your demeaning of her, I would say that you too are exercising your right to free speech. Thank you as you have proven My point something lovely.

I was actually going to point out the lack of sensibility in your defense, but after reading your last post it's all clear now. As entertaining as you undoubtedly are, I find your comments are as mad as a hatter's.

In the words of Frasier Crane, "Good day and good mental health."

(walking away, laughing hysterically... OMG, this so funny that it hurts)

sarah
April 26 2007, 1:03PM

Cmoney, those are ACTUAL lyrics or titles to a song? Nasty, and disgusting, and how anyone can say that is having a talent for music is plain wrong. I know that they say its part of how they grew up, but, somehow, even in the worst of homes I doubt if people speak this way, since you call most sisters those names, you had better get ready to get cut. Shame, shame, shame, but, in the end, the ones spewing this will do like most of the uneducated rappers, end up broke or dead, and no one will even care or "snitch" to the popo like with Bigge Smalls and Tupac, no one seems to care that they were gunned down like dogs in the streets but their familes.

What in the world has become of young black men in this country? The drug, jail house mentality as being the in thing has made them lose their natural minds.

cmoney
April 26 2007, 1:11PM

Here are the lyrics to the last stanza of Move Bitch by Ludacris and Mystikal:

[I-20 over second chorus]
Bring it, get 'em

Too bad I'm on the right track
Beef, got the right mack
Hit the trunk, grab the pump pump, I'll be right back
We buyin' bars out, showin' scars out
We heard there's hoes out, so we brought the cars out
Grab the pills cuz we poppin tonight,
Beat the shit outta security for stoppin' tha fight
I got a fifth of the remy, fuck the Belve and 'cris
I'm sellin' shit up in the club like I work in the bitch
Fuck the dress codes, it's street clothes, we all street niggaz
We on the dance floor, throwin' bows, beatin' up niggaz
I'm from the D.E.C., tryin' to disrespect D.T.P.
And watch the bottles start flyin' from the V.I.P.
Fuck this rap shit, we clap bitch, two in your body
Grab ya four, start a fight dog, ruin the party
So move bitch, get out the way hoe
All you faggot motherfuckers make way for 2-0
So...

[Chorus]
This is what some people are defending.!

VERB
April 26 2007, 1:21PM

c: So you DO care more about Hip Hop than the Black community. It came through loud and clear.

(sigh)

c: The artists you cite are nobodies no one ever heard of or will ever care about. They are irrelevant to the discussion we are having about the mainstream Hip Hop that people LISTEN TO and that influence our community.

(You get 2 pts for finally using correct vocabulary.) The artists I named are definitely not HH. My point was in rebuttal to your comment about defending music b/c it has a good beat. You think the aforementioned artists are "nobodies" simply b/c you have not heard of them in all your "wordly glory." (You're soooo cultured.) You really should turn off your radio & find something positive to listen to.

c: ...if you...maybe listened to the radio, you would understand the degenerate music the rest of the world is talking about.

Never said it didn't exist. I love art & I'm smart enough to know that radio is about money, not art. I make a conscious effort to not pollute My ears w/ that.

DDC
April 26 2007, 1:25PM

This is just another indication to point to proving that Hip-Hop has become excruciatingly annoying, useless trash so anyone who makes it is admitting they are pretty much trash themselves. The influence that this proclaimed music has over their fans is obvious because just like all these CRappers and CRap producers, their fans completely duck personal responsibility- whether its apologizing for and defending the Hip-hop mentality or even getting jobs, taking care of their kids, etc. There needs to be an organization, a movement entitled "Blacks Against Rap", but of course it won't have to last long because CRap music is going to be a played out fad in less than ten years that everyone will be laughing at and won't want anything to do with, anyhow.

MidwestGuy
April 26 2007, 1:33PM

Cmoney.lol...OK..as I thought, we definitely have two vastly different interpretations of what "homophobia" is. You (I'm assuming) believe that anyone who uses a slur such as faggot is homophobic. I made a point to ask you did you have any recent lyrics of rappers who you deem to be homophobic. The point was for me (since I hear it quoted so often among us) to get a genuine understanding from other gays about what they consider the constant homophobia in rap music.

I think (I'll go back and check) that you are talking about Luda's 2001 CD in which he had guest appearances from Mystical and this other cat on the Move Bitch track. I have it at home. You're right it wasn't Luda, it was the other cat who said something like "Move bitch, get out the way ho and all you faggot muthafkrs make way for the 2-0." If that's your example of "rap homophobia" then OK.

I guess I was looking for something similar to Buju's lyrics. Something with some meat in it (pun intended).

cmoney
April 26 2007, 1:49PM

Well, if the use of the term faggot doesn't sound homophobic to you, then I guess there isn't much use in arguing with you--you just don't get it. I don't knwo what was more offensive, the fact that it was used in the soung or the fact that a radio station saw no problem in playing it over the air after bleeping out every other foul word (bitch, fuck, shit, niggaz, m-f, etc.) in the song. Heck, I didn't even know the title was Move Bitch until I heard the song in a club. Midwest, if you can't see something wrong with the picture of music that is so foul that the title can't even be played on the air, then you are a lost cause. Unfortunately, you are not alone. Verb: your artists are nobodies because they suck and have never sold any records. Just because you and two other people like them does not make the rest of the world a bunch of uncultured louts.

DDC
April 26 2007, 2:17PM

Hmmm, I'm not a CRap fan so I can't pull up many lyrics but we all know that MANY rappers use the word "f@ggot" in their lyrics because they have disgust for gay men and feel that its the worse thing for a man to be. If that's not homophobic, then NOTHING is. Off the top of my head DMX made headlines when he exclaimed in one song that "he shows no love for homothugs" (which is what you CRap apologist posting here on are), and that "Even if we squash the beef I ain't touching your hand". Guess he's scared he'll touch some of your lover's feces or something. Eminem, a proud homophobe, says in one song that he'll kill you whether you're "a f@g or a les." On a side note, Busta Rhymes went ballistic when an effeminate fan tapped him on the shoulder, exclaiming "Man, I hate F@ggots." In another incident 50 Cent was quoted in an article saying that he "doesn't like f@ggots (you Rap apologists), but lesbians are cool". At best CRap isn't welcoming to openly gay men at all.

nahtan serious
April 26 2007, 2:22PM

The Mobster
The Drug dealer
The Thug
The Blingster
The Jailbird
The kept woman or man

We all know these exist in reality but do we need for our people to be so represented! What are we teaching our children? Camron knows full well what he is doing, so did Lil Kim etc

MidwestGuy
April 26 2007, 2:47PM

Cmoney I'm not arguing u are. What I have done is asked u 2 provide ex. of homophobia and a SINGLE post supporting the negativity in hip-hop. Both of which have left you impotent.
I tend 2 focus on the context in which a word is being used as opposed 2 the word itself.
My colleague, this morning, walked into my office and said can you help me...this damn excel chart is a bitch! No one w/in earshot screamed MISOGYNY MISOGYNY!
-I have heard MANY of US refer 2 EACH OTHER as faggots/dykes etc and I have yet 2 witness a stop the homophobia campaign against ourselves. Ive been reading this board for a while so 2 suggest anything else would be a lie.
-I have NEVER suggested that there isn't a problem with the music. I just don't agree w/your take-it-or-leave-it stance. If u are not able to reasonably comprehend what is plainly written then the lost cause is u!

yeahisaidit
April 26 2007, 2:51PM

...if it's then that some of you posters feel that one cannot see both sides to the middle here then shame on ya...it does not paticularly mean that someone is being an apologist for questionable concerns within the hip hop culture...there is a bigger picture at work of which hip hop is a part of...to try and grasp that bigger picture is to hopefully gain perspective, which is necessary if one is to see..."in their lyrics they have disgust for gay men and feel that it's the worse thing for a man to be" kinda like some of the churches y'all attend in spite of their open homophobia...does it mean all churches are detrimental? no...just like, does it mean one can dismiss hip hop as a whole? no...is there work to be done? absolutely...more empathy, understanding, forgivess and support people, less judgement, blame and punishment...something may be rough, rugged, and raw and still have a heart inside...

nahtran serious
April 26 2007, 2:55PM

My post was truncated.

These are some of the caricatures an sterotypes OFTEN portrayed in hip Hop today

The Slut
The Hoe
The Gangster
The Convict or ex convict
The hootchie mama
The Pimp
The Harem owner
The Super Macho masculine guy next door
The dumb millionaire
The Master in Ebonics...

This is how we are being represented by our own people.
This is what our children are lapping up. And this is what most white people are believing us to be...

I travel alot and one year I was in Freiburg germany, one of two black men in the club ;the other was from Ethiopia. This german guy stepped up to me and said " Hey yo, whassup my nigga..."

VERB
April 26 2007, 3:04PM

@ Derrick from Philly
D: "No...our musical knowledge OF HIPHOP is limited."

Relax, that was not for you, sweetie. It was directly in response to cmoney. Some ppl here think that I am denying that gangsta rap is a detriment to society. False. I'm just not simplistic when stating My case for free speech vs harmful lyrics and I think it confuses some.

D: "So, yes, it may be a case of not knowing about the full range of HipHop music; but only the negative influences highlighted by media."

Bingo! O/our focus should be taking issue w/ radio/TV who are responsible for putting it on public airwaves, not uncouth rappers.
D: "I'll put Duke Elllington's, I mean, Billy Strayhorn's genius up against every Hiphop artist in the world put together as one entity! (I know, that wasn't necessary, but I just couldn't help it.) "

It was unnecessary (and kinda lame), esp since you admitted to having limited HH knowledge. But at least you admitted it & you do know that Duke's success was due to Billy's genius. 5 pts for you.

MidwestGuy
April 26 2007, 3:24PM

YeahIsaidit Beat me to another point I was just typing. There is more homophobia in churches that MANY gays continue attend. Yet, they're still passing around the collection plate. I guess many gays are complicit in this homophobia as well.

Cmoney..BTW, N'dambi is one of my FAVORITE artists and very few even know who she is. For most she may be a nobody. But it certainly doesn't take away from her talent. It seems as if your view of talent is limited to exactly what it shouldn't be--radio.

Derrick from Philly
April 26 2007, 3:52PM

Verb?
Did you call me, "sweetie?" That's charming...but don't be gettin' to familiar. You young Hiphop homothugs think y'all are something special which your young stuff.

Sweetie...humph! Startin' to smell yo' pee, boy.

Ostend Street
April 26 2007, 4:13PM

We're becoming our own worst enemy. I really agree with most of the comments that have been made; however, until some of these people have there loved ones become victims of violent crime or insensitive behavior, we will continue to have this stupidity. My outlook has always been very positive for my people but now I am really afraid for us as a race.

cmoney
April 26 2007, 4:25PM

Midwest: I posted some pretty foul lyrics from Ludacris that portray shooting up a nightclub, homophobia, disrespect for women, disrespect for Black people, drug use, poor English and basically being a stupid thug and you say I haven't presented any evidence of negativity in hip hip!!? Well, maybe sociopathic behavior is alright with you, but I would hope that you would have better standards in life. Part of the problem here is that so many people have been exposed to this crap for so long that they think it is normal to romanticize violence, criminal behavior and mistreatment of women--it is NOT! We have a long way to go. Sad, sad, sad.

VERB
April 26 2007, 4:33PM

@ Derrick

Homothug? That's rich yet so unnecessary. LOL...that's hysterical even. I meant that in a nice, pro-Black, sisterly way. Do you always talk to women like that? I'm a 40 y/o lesbian. Don't judge so quickly w/out facts.

@ Montell & evidence...

Outstanding points about the no-snitching theme so prevalent in so many areas of society today. It's everywhere, unjust and sickening.

@cmoney...

c: your artists are nobodies because they suck and have never sold any records. Just because you and two other people like them does not make the rest of the world a bunch of uncultured louts.

LOL... you should see someone about that issue you have. Are you the captain of the debate team for the Special Olympics or what? You have just demonstrated to anyone reading this that your comments are juvenile, unfounded and foolish. I could post data that dictates otherwise, but the insanity of your comments lets' Me know that I'm wasting My time trying to engage in intellectual debate with you.

Luddite
April 26 2007, 4:44PM

cmoney: so MidwestTroll oops I mean MidwestGuy doesn't think "faggot motherfucker" is a homophobic slur? He must have been raised by the Amish then. However the good Amish folks most likely were not the ones who taught him to BOLD every third or fourth word in every post. I just pray MidwestTroll doesn't discover the CapsLock key.

Please don't feed the Trolls folks. Thanks.

MidwestGuy
April 26 2007, 4:49PM

Cmoney...WOW! At some point you should realize that continuously responding to questions/statements that don't exist really takes away from the higher intelligence that I am sure you have. I simply asked u (since this has been your assertion) to provide ONE ex. of a SINGLE POST that was in SUPPORT of the NEGATIVITY in HH. That's all. Read what I wrote in English..don't interpret it into Chinese. Dude, u have to be better than that because 3+6 can't = 45.

I've read and responded in kind to each question/thought you've raised. Is it unreasonable for me to expect the same from you or is this just your pattern? Is this a discussion or just you want to hear yourself think aloud? Nevermind..don't answer it. Your posts are enough of an answer.

Derrick from Philly
April 26 2007, 5:03PM

Yes, this is a serious topic, and it started off that way. Y'all are talking about the future (or lack of one) for young black people. But why the hell must the discussion become so uncivil. I guess you've got to be thick skinned to post controversial opinions on these blogs. I left it to cmoney, Nathan, DDC to debate the seriousness--a while ago 'cause that harsh-ass posting is too much for me.

Verb:
Girl, my face is cracked! Why you write so masculine? Shoot, I was startin' to feel somethin'...deep down inside.

sarah
April 26 2007, 5:08PM

After reading all the personal attacks on each other, no wonder no one respects black people in this country. Rap is garbage to me, but, if someone wants to buy it and call it art, that's their business, but, no need to attack anyone who does not agree with you or see nothing good about it, since there isn't, and its not as if the so called stars actually help anyone with good deeds.

Just like the white folks think, they will kill themselves off since they have no concept of black unity.

VERB
April 26 2007, 5:29PM

Derrick from Philly:
Girl, my face is cracked! Why you write so masculine? Shoot, I was startin' to feel somethin'...deep down inside.

LOL...you are so silly! Write "so masculine?" Nah... I just preach it like I feel it. Besides, what is masculine/feminine writing anyway? (scratching My head) That was a sexist comment BTW, but I ain't trippin'. In fact, I just knew someone was gonna go there. So is it okay to use endearing terms when I speak to you now? I know I'm not a man but I'm a BDSM Dominant if that helps any.

Derrick, I'm glad you and I could at least share a chuckle cuz all BS and disagreements aside, W/we gotta look out for one another, esp being Black and gay. BE peace.

cmoney
April 26 2007, 5:40PM

That's right midwest, you know everything and the rest of the world is stupid. It must be really boring being you, since you know it all. But maybe you forgot that you wrote this:
"Most people said Snoop was stupid in his response but at least there was a lot of truth to it. He spoke on the type of women that are bitches and ho's (not excusing the language) which IMO was not an indictment on all women."

Sounds like a ringing endorsement of negativity in Hip Hop to me. Snoop Dogg has no business calling ANY woman a 'ho or a bitch, especially on a CD or in public. Apparently you see nothing wrong with what Snoop Dogg said which tells me you have been listening to this junk for too long. If you can't see something wrong with that, there is little else to say to you.
And Verb, since you are a woman, how would you like to be called a bitch or a 'ho? Yeah, I didn't think you would like it.

ToddyEnglish
April 26 2007, 6:05PM

Toddy Yes you have been removed. In a lot of the inner cities that sort of civic-mindedness no longer exists. Contrary to popular belief, banning Hip-hop is not the cure. Believing such would suggest that if rappers stopped rapping, people would climb higher and stop killing. Sounds a bit far-fetched don't u think?

Midwest Guy, your brand of apathy is one of the preeminent reasons that our community is so fucked up right now. I'm not calling for rap music to be band. What I am suggesting is balance. Perhaps if we gave more conscious and positive hip hop artists airplay and popularity then MAYBE young kids would realize that there is an alternative. I'm sorry but we are LOSING a generation to all of this mess. So, are we supposed to just sit on our hands and allow them to continue to perpetuate the LIE that being a moral degenerate is okay? The "No Snitching" campaign is basically telling our youth to be spineless cowards. Sorry but I disagree with you.

J
April 27 2007, 1:16AM

"If hh ends, all or most of our problems will as well" sounds a lot like,"If you kill black babies, then there will be no crime."

On top of this twisted logic, we have one generation attacking another. It's nothing new, but it's still so sad, and where exactly is the evidence that hip hop is destroying the world?

Is this the point in the discussion where people try to link every murder, rape, and bombing in the last ten years to Snoop?

The whole "rap is poison" mentality reeks of classism.

I'm not suggesting every single person who doesn't like HH is a "snob," but for whatever reason it reminds me of those who reject certain or all things associated with us. Hey, whatever makes you feel good. That negro wake up call is right around the corner anyway.

yeahisaidit
April 27 2007, 2:15AM

...j, what a fantastic post man...for me, (and for those who might really think about and considered what you wrote) it articulates an insightful, mature and useful perspective into these comments IMHO...viewpoints that strike an actual cord, in my mind anyway, as I attempt to assess and better understand the relationship between culture and community rather than culture versus community...thanks...

yeahisaidit
April 27 2007, 2:55AM

...oh and p.s. not to split hairs or to get hung up on technicalities this far into the post but it's my understanding that to notifiy authorities of an illegal infraction is to report a crime, but "to snitch" is then someone who provides information to police which implicates someone else's lawbreaking in order to save themself from the full extent of the law with respect to their own crimes...also this aspect is the actual cornerstone of our "justice system" along with plea bargaining as opposed to many who assume that cases are more often cracked with factual and substantiated information or testimony from accredited witnesses...the court system is too bogged down to be concerned with things like the truth, (although that's the standard it desires to reach), many times police have to act like criminals to catch criminals, (undercovers, entrapment)...also to aid authorities you best have "clean hands" or they may apprehend you as well, costing serious cash and connections for adequate legal counsel (con't)

yeahisaidit
April 27 2007, 3:41AM

(con't) money for representation low income people do not have...no one can afford to be naive enough to think these things are about a simple notion of right or wrong, and in the ghetto, police are counting on the fact that many have no real grasp of their rights, the law, it's extent or complications, they don't live there, the less crime the less work the less jobs for them...this is not to promote or say DO NOTHING about crime in your neighborhood or wherever or NOT to aid authorities that's your decision to make...this "no snitching" thing is nothing more a slick, in your face, and highly marketed campaign to sell T-shirts, sensationlize media and headlines off the back of controversial mainstream rap music, (only a PART of hip hop culture), capitalizing on the centuries long contenscious relationship with police, giving elitist Black and white pundits more ammunition to further distract otherwise sensable people from the actual ECONOMIC factors that plague poor Black children (con't)

yeahisaidit
April 27 2007, 4:22AM

(con't) as BILLIONS of our tax dollars are literally sucked out of the country monthly to fund the war on terror, for corporate welfare and the nation of Israel, (and no I'm not an anti-semite), as our public school systems collaspe, (more than adequate education for ALL children being the necessary alternative to offset the effects of the negative mass marketed media images and ultra consumeristic capitalism that assails us; if only we could stop bickering over what the curriculum should be), and medical care costs that almost NO ONE can afford...and yet everyone appears to be ENTIRELY distracted over the social inapropriateness of PIMPS, BITCHES and HO'S which no matter how much they scream will forever be dictated by the market and the laws of supply and demand much like alcohol, cigarettes, porno and drugs...if only there was this amount of outrage as our kids money for excellent public schools and medical care is being straight up stolen from them...PLEASE WAKE UP

Nathan James
April 27 2007, 9:18AM

Getting back to Keith's original post, what if Cam'ron had a son who was, God forbid, murdered? Would he still refuse to talk to the police? When rappers like Cam'ron broadcast these twisted "ethics" to our young people, they make themselves less safe, too. Given that white corporate America is complicit in this, they, too, are answerable for the misery these statements (and lyrics like those posted above) bring to communities of color.

None of the hateful rhetoric will go away until these hip-hop audiences vote against it with their pocketbooks...

MidwestGuy
April 27 2007, 9:47AM

CMONEY For a minute I thought when did I write that? I didn't realize u and Toddy wanted me 2 respond 2 some'n I wrote in another article. I'll have to do it in parts. I don't believe that I have projected 2 know anymore than the rest in here.
What Snoop also said was that there was no comparison between IMUS' remarks and HH lyrics. 1 was a negative general reference 2 a group of women w/no face, the other was @ a single group, at a specific college, on a specific b'ball team. I don't recall any HH artist doing that. Both remarks were negative. That is the correct context of my post. So, IMO, that is not a ringing endorsement of HH. It was an acknowledgement of the truth in what he said about the comparison
Is that an acceptable answer 4 u? Probably not. (CONT)

MidwestGuy
April 27 2007, 10:21AM

WOW! I didn't realize I went into boldfaced overdrive w/the last post. Must be a glitch in the matrix.lol

Cont..

I'm more concerned w/the violence associated w/h-hop than I am the sexism/misogyny. Both of which can helped by having responsible parents/community. However, parents (and hopefully no one disagress) are the ones who should instill values not entertainers. I dread the day we allow that to happen. It does not make sense to take that away from those who are ultimately responsible for raising kids. HHop does not have kids walking out of homes w/sagging jeans, white t's, and talking like they dont' have an ounce of sense. The person responsible is the one who allowed them to leave the house looking/speaking that way. I allow my son to listen to HH and watch videos. BUT, he knows "my" limitations. So I don't have to worry about him cutting up in/outside my house. That's being a responsible parent.

VERB
April 27 2007, 10:40AM

@ J & yeahisaidit...

Excellent posts. This was exactly what I was talking about when I previously mentioned another poster "falling for the okeydoke." I applaud you b/c I dared not go into that as I definitely would have taken even more heat for "ignoring the situation in the Black community." While I do recognize that public airwaves have been playing music that's detrimental to youth (as I'm sure you do as well), this situation spotlights what's just a spoke in the wheel of total chaos. That does not suggest that W/we ignore it, but look at this from it's proper perspective. Again, the big picture. A lot of time, I think W/we focus on the battle versus focusing on the war. (more below...)

MidwestGuy
April 27 2007, 11:07AM

Toddy Based on the above statement of mine you posted, I am unsure where a "lack of concern" is being shown. I acknowledged that the type of civic-minded community you grew up in no longer exists. That's a reality. Not a lack of concern.

My logic behind the ban rap = cure statement was exactly along the lines of the poster who made the "kill black babies=no crimes" analogy. Not a lack of concern.

Both points are reasonable. How you're convinced that they show a lack of concern and explains why our communities are fucked up is beyond me. Hunh?

Since you have combined dialogue from a previous article and this one, I'm a bit unsure what exactly you are disagreeing with so I'm "winging" my response to you.

cmoney
April 27 2007, 11:28AM

midwest: Your quote is from this article. Snoop Dogg splitting hairs on when it is appropriate to call someone a 'ho is beyond laughable. That's why his dumb ass has been banned from entering both the U.K. and Australia. They have had enough of his negative influence and are exercising their right to protect their culture from the negative influence of this "artist" who does nothing more than promote, drug use, glorifies violence and degrades women for fun and profit. Too bad we can't put him out of our country.

Karim
April 27 2007, 11:40AM

It pisses me off that people stay silent when they see or know about a crime, but them bitch and moan they become a victim.

MidwestGuy
April 27 2007, 12:08PM

Oh ok my bad. I thought it was the other one. Either way, even the most uniformed among us can have a point. You don't have to agree w/Snoop nor my acknowledgment of the truth in his statement in order for his point to be valid. Hell, there are many things I don't like about O'reilly but he does make valid points.

Snoop doesn't ever have to visit those countries. His money is solid w/o it. And no, I'm glad he's in this country. God forbid we started ex-communicating people from the US simply because we don't agree w/the choices they made. I think "we" will be outta here b4 Snoop ever will.

VERB
April 27 2007, 12:21PM

(cont'd from above)
I do believe W/we need to clean up the airwaves & try to rid HH of homophobia, violence and misogyny (that's a noble action) but it's unrealistic to think that W/we'll get rid of it completely as this country is heavily-infected. It's in HH b/c it's everywhere else too. So w/ all this politicking about banning words in music & useless dialogue w/ uncouth rappers about why they should change, not only are W/we wasting time but also opening that proverbial can of worms. Esp on the idea that banning words/certain types of language b/c that sets U/us up for parts of the 1st Amendment being widdled away as time goes on simply cuz some folks weren't taught personal responsibility in regard to speech as children... (conclusion below)

Aspasia
April 27 2007, 12:57PM

Until the police and the courts can honestly say they can protect witnesses, people will not snitch. John Walsh and Anderson Cooper discussed as much on AC 360 last night. If someone has already shown that they have no regard for human life and you know that you will be gunned down before you hit the courthouse steps, you are not in it.

VERB
April 27 2007, 2:50PM

(cont'd from above)
Limiting language? We'll mess around and won't be able to speak out in protest against the government's actions/inactions on issues as important as healthcare, war, unemployment, etc. The Patriot Act is a prime example of the gov't claiming to protect US citizens & instead abusing it's power. These are the times where W/we need to keep the blinders off & pay attention to how one issue relates to another & attack that issue appropriately, with a clear understanding of the big picture. It's perfectly fine to talk about fixing situations w/in O/our community but the solutions must not be based on personal disdain toward a genre of music. The solutions must be sensible, executable and won't come back to bite U/us in the butt.

@ Karim...

Ditto.

edwin greene
April 27 2007, 5:43PM

Rap/Hip Hop fans often say that HH is homophobic, misogynistic, etc., because the society we live in is the same. However, do ANY rock and roll or country & western music performers, for example, openly say in their "music" that gay men should die the way some rappers have? Do ANY R & R or C & W performers call "their" women "bs and hos" with such open contempt the way some rappers do?

In my time, "soul music" was the thing for most blacks and Aretha Franklin, Al Green, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson etc., could SING and they sang mostly about LOVE with all its problems. If society in general is homopobic/misogynistic, some of the rappers have for whatever reason taken these social ills to a level not seen by me in ANY other "art form".

Jojo
April 27 2007, 6:54PM

Its about time to put a nail in this thread, it gets weirder each day. Rap stinks, that's a given from most decent, law abiding citizens, to its fans, its an art to be saved since they seem to find something in it that is uplifting, with pure lyrics to help soothe the soul and reminded them of how sweet their lives are. To each his own, I just think it should be regulated more, videos on late at night, and any playing it loud should be fined, since, I for one get tired of hearing it driving down the street, no need to hear about the "niggas" and "ho's" in rush hour traffic, keep it in the hood, along with all the other self destructive behavior like this no snitching stuff, they can find a knuckle head to spew nonsense for free whenever they want to make all blacks look bad, but, that's what rap is for.

J
April 28 2007, 12:46AM

That "keep it in the 'hood" comment is an example of that sentiment I described earlier. It seems like more and more of us are joining white people who criticize our culture and call anything associated with us ghetto or negative. Some of us actually believe sporting an A&F tee and bashing HH culture makes one progressive among other things, and no I'm not a HH clone.

Let's say that the sort of music discussed here is censored.

Well, remember what happened when Tipper got heated and those cute labels were slapped on CDs to protect children from horrible words like masturbation. She gave some artists a career. She built Paisley Park.

What exactly will happen if we stifle HH?

Nothing has even happened at this point and we already have people turning it up. If some of you think we have a serious problem now, wait.

nahtan serious
April 28 2007, 7:56AM

sad sad sad.... since when is calling a woman a ho and people nigga and gays faggots PART of african american culture. Since when is PROMOTING criminal behviour aprt of ANY culture???? Since when is promoting anarchy ( for no apparent reason other than to MAKE LOTS OF MONEY) part of our culture.

Things you need to unpack

Being educated does not mean bing ANTI BLACK
Being AntiHH does not mean hating blackness
Calling for HH to account fr its negative effects does not mean we do not understand it ORIGINAL intended role!

Sad sad sad

Kola Boof
April 28 2007, 7:58AM

VERB...since my life and my children's lives have been directly altered by the Patriot Act, I have to agree with you 300%. You can't possibly know how right you are.

Jojo
April 28 2007, 10:13AM

Preach on it Nathan, preach! All this silly. over the top, melodramatic defense that HH/rap is the greatest thing to happen to black people in the last 100 years is as silly as it gets. The thugs who "sing' and perpetuate violence as an art form, have long since left the hood, and only go back to shoot up someone to keep their street creed. Sorry, this black woman sees no use for this vile trash on any level, and will gladly stand with white folks to denounce it since I'm not a "ho" and no one in my family is a "niggah." For those who are, more power to you, but, grab a clue, this saying its OK for them to spew it and then get mad when anyone else, while, Asian or Hispanic says he same vile thing, and they are condemned reeks of hypocrisy.

Kola Boof
April 28 2007, 1:03PM

I would definitely snitch on bad people in the community.

My problem, however, is that I have a worse habit---of going straight to the "heavys" and preaching to them about how they're messing up their lives and other people's lives. I always get the most shocked expression on my face when they violently shout, "Bitch, get outta here 'fo I dump your ass in a trash can!" IMO, there's not really a "black community" over here or the community would gather and confront these people like in a tribe. There would be a "clan meeting" and the oldest people would lay down the law...carried out by the younger ones. If you don't comply, then you're out of the family (the community). I get terrible chills when someone shouts at me, "Mind your own goddamned business and get off my porch!"

VERB
April 30 2007, 3:01PM

Here's a copy of the open letter poet Saul Wiliams sent to Oprah in response to some of her questions and also censorship.

http://ballerstatus.com/article/editorialscolumns/2007/04/2480/

alasexboi
May 15 2007, 2:54PM

This story is another example of media pathologizing anyhting black people do. Mafia neighborhoods, South Boston Irish neighborhoods, etc all have the same philosophy about 'snitching' to the police. Why is it when black people do anything its made to seem worse than when whites do the EXACT same thing..all these school shootings have mostly been upper middle class kids..is something wrong with the upper middle class?????

alasexboi
May 15 2007, 4:56PM

This story is another example of media pathologizing anything black people do. Mafia neighborhoods, South Boston Irish neighborhoods, etc all have the same philosophy about 'snitching' to the police. Why is it when black people do anything its made to seem worse than when whites do the EXACT same thing..all these school shootings have mostly been upper middle class kids..is something wrong with the upper middle class?????

Harrison
June 19 2007, 6:39PM

Well as a kid my mother use to say don't get caught up in somebody elses mess. It made plain sense because of the many times I have been caught up in other people's mess.

I don't stop to see an accident as my grandmother use to say. Hang around for someone elses hanging you soon find yourself hanging. I don't condone violence but I would rather not be involved with it one way or another.

I won't blame music either for behavior. If I had done half the things I see younger people getting away with my mother would have knocked some sense into my head. Weither I be listening to hip-hop or not. Back in the day if I had acted like NWA... Well I still wouldn't be able to sit down in comfortable today. But then again it wouldn't be just in the Black community that a break down in discipline is happening. Working here in Japan the same complaints you are commenting about they talk about here.