The Hip Hop Side Step!

Reggie
April 18 2007, 5:00AM

I wonder what the members of 2 Live Crew would have to say about this issue today. In my opinion, they were the ones who introduced misogynistic lyrics, the use of "nigga", "ho", and "bitch" into today's mainstream hip-hop and rap.

jazzi
April 18 2007, 8:32AM

Its just another example of how we as a people refuse to take an honest look at our actions & how we inhibit our growth as a community. In my opinion, these clownes are a part of the problem. Of course they're not going to speak out against offensive lyrics in hip hop. Thats their bread & buttter! Of course they side step & hop scotch the real issue. As long as the money keeps coming in, who really cares? Business as usual. CHA-CHING, CHA-CHING!!!!!

Albert
April 18 2007, 8:32AM

I am terribly afraid that we are falling into the trap that has been set by the mainstream media. This most recent incident of racial insensitivity and sexism has managed to focus the light of racism back on black people,as if we are responsible for racism and misogyny in America. While I in no way condone the lyrics many rap artists use and choose not support it in anyway, it is clear to me that they are not the cause. Art has always imitated life. Art throughout history has always been a reflection of the culture. For centuries societies have tried to blame artists for moral decay when it was the artist who were bringing the moral decay to the attention of society. Instead of society dealing with its issues, it has always chosen the easy way out; killing the messenger. There is no doubt that the black community has some serious house keeping to do but to turn this into a campaign against rap is ridiculous. It's time for all of us to admit that we have prejudices, so it can be exposed and dealt with.

titi
April 18 2007, 9:24AM

LET PUT IT THIS WAY, WE BLACKS ARE WILLING TO DEMEAN OURSELF AND WOMEN BUT WE INSIST ON OTHER PEOPLE RESPECTING US.
HOW SHORT SIGHTED CAN THAT BE?????????
WE CAN ONLY BE TREATED ACCORDING TO THE WAY WE TREAT OURSELF AND EACH OTHER....WE ARE THE CRIMINAL IN THIS CASE NOT WHITES.... WE REFUSED TO AKNOWCKLEDGE OUR INTERIORISED SELF HATRED AND SELF SABOTAGE....HIP HOP CULTUR CAN'T BE DEFENDED.IT HAS ENOUGH BLOOD OF SO MANY YOUNG BLACKS ON IT MURDEROUS KILLING AXE.....THEY HAVE DONE MUCH DAMAGE TO THE MIND OF BLACK PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER EVIL. THE WORLD NEW PERCEPTION OF US HAS BEEN SHAPED AROUND BY IT. JUST TRAVEL AROUND THE WOLD AND YOU WILL NOTICE IT NEGATIVE IMPACT ON BLACK IDENTITY. AS LONG YOU ARE NOT UNCONSCIENT AND SHOT SIGHTED YOU'LL SEE IT. MOST OF US ARE SHAMELESSLY IGNORANT AND SHORT SIGHTED TO NOTICE ANYTHING......THE SELF DISTRUCTION RISING FROM WITHIN IS MUCH MORE DESASTROUS THAN ANYTHING...LET'S NOT DEFEND OUR OWN SUCCIDE.....

ChicagoChild
April 18 2007, 9:27AM

The fact remains that we are a goner if we don't stop this crap.

This high school mentality of viewing the world and people as just objects to dismiss with easily, is going to lead to our own re-enslavement and self-demise.

The whole world has gotten it that the Black man and woman neither respects the womb they have come from or the life that they were given.

If you say that your race is the most disrespected and always at the bottom rung, what do you think is going to happen to it in the long run?

Think slavery can't come back? We have already set the stage for it---and we dance to it.

There are a lot of women in Hip Hop and in the videos who act like it's okay to be viewed as "things" as one would do in some Asian countries. You can use and abuse her and even kill her without hesitation.

We are so sick!

Cocoa Rican
April 18 2007, 9:43AM

I agree and was thinking the exact same thing as I watched Oprah's show the past two days. I'm disappointed and can now see why change is not likely to come...at this point, the industry is too happy cashing in on the alleged hardcore hate speech mongers. I guess when Russell's daughter or Common's little girl ask to be allowed in a video or swing from a pole while having champagne poured over them and called hoes, they won't really get it. Then again, if they pay their girls enough, they might sell their kids like they have their souls.

Jazzy ESQ
April 18 2007, 9:48AM

Can we please stop using hip-hop/rap and its lyrics as the convenient excuse. The music and the “poets” are a product of their environment. So lets put all this energy behind dismantling the political machine that created the ghetto and continues to pursue polices that perpetuate the ghetto and its mentality. This whole dispute goes much deeper than the words bitch and hoe. Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery by not falling for the mainstream’s convenient rationale

nova
April 18 2007, 10:01AM

First of all, all hip-hop is not created equal. But still, there are segments of hip-hop music that must absolutely accept some accountability. While we cannot solely blame hateful speech and misrepresentation of our black community on hip-hop, that does not absolve the people that are involved in the business of hip-hop from making some changes. I am ashamed of Russell Simmons. He kept using the 'poet that came from a life of poverty' device to excuse the music and the language, yet failed to show the connection between someone growing up poor, but then pouring champagne down the crack of a woman's ass in a video.

jared
April 18 2007, 10:23AM

Children, that whole show was as bad as those reruns on BET's Comic View. The worse one after Simmons, was that foolish Chavis, blaming white people for the use of the n-word and the slurs to black women, shows that for a few coins you can always find a fool Negro to say what you want.

Any black person who buys rap music is a total fool, and its a shame that anyone would go on WORLDWIDE television and look as foolish as those alleged "rap" insiders did.

Like someone said on another board, these are silly litle boys who have not had a real male figure in thier lives, and hence the reason to be the cowards they are and not man enough to defend that nasty trash.

American black people have so much self hatred, that its not sad or funny, the only people on earth who hate themselves so much that they call themselves vile names as terms of endearment, and demean the women who bought them into the world. Sick, sick, sick.

cmoney
April 18 2007, 10:28AM

Why was Oprah even talking to these negro front men? They don't own the mechanisms that propagate this nonsense upon our society? Russell Simmons does not own DefJam records. He co-founded it and it is owned by a multinational company-Vivendi. She needs to have the WHITE European and American corporate executives who have the ultimate say so over this musical pollution on her show to explain why they continue to distribute and finance this "art". She shouldn't let them get away with claiming they have no control over the artistic content of their business. The president of CBS, Art Moonves, canned Don Imus last week for his racist and sexist tirade. And TITI, you are right, everywhere in the world, people view African-Americans as hip-hop thugs as a result of this imagery. Just look at what the German soldier said when he was training his soldiers how to shoot: "Imagine they are Blacks from Brooklyn and pull the trigger and say die Motha fucka!!"

Blue
April 18 2007, 11:27AM

I'll say it again - this has NOTHING to do with hip-hop. This is about the media's tolerance of the antics of people like Imus. People are missing the point and letting the media spin fool them! Had the sponsors of that show not pulled out, Imus would still be sitting in his chair. Negativity toward women, and the n-word all existed before hip-hop, and will exist if hip-hop dies. It's all a part of the American landscape. It's bullshit to me that this has been turned into a discussion about hip-hop. And now that Oprah has jumped on the bandwagon everybody will really believe it. I cannot believe people are buying this. Do people REALLY think an end to dirty hip-hop lyrics is gonna stop racist white men from saying dumb shit? I swear, this is pure stupidity. If that's the case, then why are Al and Jesse getting death threats? I guess that's hip-hop's fault too ... or why did Mel Gibson go off on Jews? This needs to be a discussion about race issues, not rap music.

Lois
April 18 2007, 11:56AM

Well, Blue, I for one am glad that O put it into the public light, with the poor rep's of "hip-hop." Society is coarse and uncouth enough already, and, no need for black men to be as despicable, and racist and misogynistic as Imus, since i for one don't see any difference between what he said and what ever it is they,"rappers" claim to be doing. And, since its the black "men" who are demeaning black women more than white men,its a black issue, not a racial one.

nova
April 18 2007, 12:16PM

Blue, this entire argument defending hip-hop is a crock of sh!t once you factor in how De La Soul (years ago) addressed this type of thing with “Stakes is High”. While there are so many people running to the defense of hip-hop, a lot of you have conveniently forgotten that there are artists within the community that do not agree with what we see and hear in the mainstream right now. I agree that hip-hop ain’t the blame for all of society’s ills, but don’t sit up here and act like it hasn’t screwed up royally on SOME level. These are the stakes De La was referring to.

Harold81
April 18 2007, 12:16PM

I am so glad someone mentioned 2 Live Crew. The simultaneous explosion of 2 Live Crew and NWA had a huge hand in what we see today. Music changed, videos, changed, fashion changed, dance changed, and IMO, attitudes changed.

What really astounds me is many in the Hip Hop Community who cannot seem to see how the negative aspects of Hip Hop have effected the black community. No one is saying Hip Hop is the sole reason for all of Black America's ills, however the negative aspects of Hip Hop does indeed have a role in what we see today and those in the Hip Hop community should take responsibility.

I also was disappointed with yesterday's panel. They all essentially said the reason the Tip Drill video and others like it are made is because those artist grew up poor. THAT IS SOME BULLSH*T! I refuse to believe those who make those types of videos and songs do so because of a impoverished past. It is time to "man up" and take responsibility for the negative images they put out.

Blue
April 18 2007, 12:22PM

Nowhere in my post did I defend hip-hop. I said hip-hop is not the issue. I don't even listen to any of it anymore, but I am not stupid enough to think that folks' views on women and race will change if they change their lyrics. I, like a good portion of black boys, grew up watching uncles and family friends cheat on their wives and treat women any kind of way and use the word nigga and everything else - all long before vulgar hip-hop rose to prominence. Which is why I said those kinds of views have been in existence for ages. Point the finger at hip-hop all you want, but them changing the way they do things won't make a damn bit of difference.

Kenneth Spivey
April 18 2007, 1:26PM

I can't help but blame Black America for our own ills. I live in Washington, DC, and the self-hatred I see, and experience on a personal level, is astounding. Hip-hop music is clearly contributing to the problems we have. The videos and lyrics associated with hip-hop are an embarrassment to the entire race. When will this madness end? Possibly never. But riddle me this? Why are there never WHITE WOMEN in these videos? As long as black (and most recently Asian and Latin) women are the “objects” rapped about by these losers, it will continue. But, let a few white chicks show up in these videos and this whole genre will come to a screeching halt. Why in the hell would the white powers that be (those truly controlling this industry) stop the highly-paid “buffoons” from enabling what is clearly the self-destruction of the Black America?

On a side note, I was really pissed at “Mr. Intern to Executive” for going off like he did. That was real classy…him being a God fearing man and all.

MidwestGuy
April 18 2007, 1:46PM

Jared...I purchase rap/hip-hop and am currently listening to Ludicris' latest CD Release Therapy. By no stretch of the imagination am I a "fool." Speaking of black people hating themselves to the point they call each other vile names...yeah referring to others as "fools" definitely makes you a class act.

Oprah shouldn't have had them on the show to begin w/if that's how she was going to handle it. The panelists were busy doing three things at once...1)defending attacks from others 2)explaining how they view hip-hop 3)being loyal to their base--hip hop. It was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for any good to come out of that farce of a "forum."

Referring to hip-hop artists as "buffoons" and "clowns" and "modern-day minstrels" because you don't agree w/the horrible message is no different than heterosexuals who view us as "faggots" simply because they think we are destroying the world.

Minstrels or faggots...don't we have some self-righteous nerve?

cmoney
April 18 2007, 1:55PM

The whole "I grew up poor" argument is even more absurd because many of these wannabe thugs did not grow up poor and never lived in the ghetto. Russel Simmons grew up in a section of Queens that was not even close to being impoverished. Urban, yes. Poor, no way. The same can be said for Ludacris, LL Cool J, P-Diddy (or whatever his name is now), Akon, and many others. These people came from families with at least one working parent and never missed a meal. P-Diddy even went to Howard U. Yeah, that's real "gangsta". Of course, you'll never hear them rapping about their hard times at the university studying calculus or arguing with their fathers about cutting the grass. All you hear is how they get the girls, escaped from the cops, survived the hood, carry weapons, have bling or sold drugs. They are bunch of phonies perpetrating a fraud upon our community and our image around the world.

Derrick from Philly
April 18 2007, 2:12PM

Hey, come on, MidwestGuy:

Being called a "fool" aint exactly vile. Now, if someone called one a "Nappy Headed Homo"--that might be a little too much... 'though I'd be glad to have any kind of hair at this point.

Blue
April 18 2007, 2:18PM

Ha ha, I love you Derrick ... always lightening up the mood!! :-)

ToddyEnglish
April 18 2007, 2:30PM

I agree with everything Jazzi said. The first half of the show really had great dialogue and made me feel like we were making a change for the better. But the minute I had to listen to Russell Simmons, Common, and the record exec dance around the issue I thought, "Ain't jack shit gonna change." Oprah picked the wrong people to appeal to for change. As long as they keep making their BLING BLING so they can keep drivin Bentleys they will keep things the way that they are. They don't give a damn about the negativity they a perpetuating. Like it or not kids do look up to their dumbasses...Now that they know better they are in the position to do better.

That is why it is up to young sistahs like the ones from Spelman to lead the way. Those sorry old niggas ain't gone do shit.

jcampbell
April 18 2007, 3:04PM

That Snoop Dog! Eloquent to the end. Imagine referring to anyone -- regardless of color -- as a "muthafucka". Just goes to show that the man, however "talented," is profoundly ignorant of proper courteous speech habits.

MidwestGuy
April 18 2007, 3:07PM

Derrick..and IMO neither is the term faggot or nigga.

To the author:
Each of the 4 panelists devoted less than a minute to thanking Oprah for having them on her show. 4 panelists=20minutes? Oh ok.

If this was the "opportunity of a lifetime" as you report "to address Middle America" (White People) then it would have made perfect sense to have those who are the largest purveyors/consumers of this trash on her show. She didn't...she chose the underlings.

In short, the problem remains

deejay
April 18 2007, 3:22PM

here's my 2 cents:

The problem is with public demand. The supply side will continue to push out this garbage as long as people want it. Granted, lots of uncomfortable work lies ahead to try to stuff "coarse culture" back into its bottle but I think it's possible.

I grew up when no one wore seatbelts and everyone smoked. Today, my neice and nephew can't imagine someone smoking or riding in a car without a seatbelt.

Sandwiched between our generations are lots of public service messages, policy actions, personal examples, and stories of the risks and dangers of such conduct, etc.

Where to start? At home where you wield influence. I don't watch FOL, ILNY. Since his mother hasn't banned the the VH1 minstrel hour, my power is limited. But when he pops in and out of my space, he sees me watching "Planet Earth", GlobeTrekker, or some travel food culture stuff.

It's one of many small steps that add up. It's about leading by example.

JON C
April 18 2007, 3:29PM

Check out http://race.eserver.org/misogyny.html. bell hooks sheds some interesting points about black male sexism and misogyny as well as the overall dominant culture's sexist and patriarchal values.

Karim
April 18 2007, 3:33PM

Snoop Dogg can say every vile despicable thing that he can about women. That is his right. But I will not be using my hard-earned money to support that. And that is my right.

Stuffed Animal
April 18 2007, 3:34PM

What irked me about Oprah's show last night was hearing Russell Simmons generalize about all rappers being "poets" who create "poetry". You can't make something be poetry just by saying that it is! I find nothing poetic about glorification of violence, unrepentant heterosexism, blatant misogyny and racism (YES, degrading the image of Black people is racist, regardless of whether the person doing it is Black, White, Asian, whatever). I also took exception to Simmons' defense of artists "reflecting the culture". Since when is it enough to just be a mirror or a tape-recorder? That ain't art. Artists interpret. Artists have a point of view! Artists must have a moral conscience if their work is to be uplifting. We do well to remember that rappers were not the first people to create music about conditions in the 'hood. Anybody remember Gil-Scott Heron, Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, The Isley Brothers? How'd they manage to address these issues without denigrating people?

curious887
April 18 2007, 3:42PM

I don't understand the defense of hip hop. As has been stated already, no one is saying hip hop is the cause of all the problems. But is that the point? Do you think firing Imus will change his views on black women? Not. But the point is he can't pollute the public with that crap and not faces consequences. I feel the same way about hip hop. Let Simmons and Snoop and whoever else have their views on "hos" and the rest. But they need to learn that when you put those messages out to our young people who are lapping this music up like thirsty dogs drinking water, it only hurts and demeans us. And if we as black men and women don't stand up to our own and tell them that what they are doing is hurting us and they need to stop, who is going to do it? By the way, I grew up poor too. No excuse to refer to people who look like my mother and sister as "hos" and "bitches."

bubba
April 18 2007, 3:53PM

As usual, let's deflect responsibility because Oprah's panelists aren't the ones investing millions of dollars in this trash. Therefore, it's the white executives at fault for pimping negative images of OUR culture. Nope, we just can't say no to massa. He might give us a real bad whuppin'. Cmoney is absolutely right. The industry perpetrates a fraudulent image condoned by "artists" willing to play a part for a big payday. They willingly sell degradation to a white populace that wants to think the worst of them. And even if they did grow up in the adverse circumstances many people of color face, does that mean reverting to regressive behavior is the answer? Suppose Duke Ellington was hurling epithets at his own people because somebody got lynched. DUH! This crap is permeating and damaging the minds and actions of many black and brown people. I've heard little children call each other "nigga" as easily as saying hello. Russell Simmons, Snoop Dogg and all the apologists are scared that a revolt will cost them $

marius
April 18 2007, 4:12PM

We must put this mess on notice. I have much respect for Oprah.

Harold81
April 18 2007, 4:17PM

I would like to say once more that NO ONE is saying Hip Hop birthed N*gga, Ho, B*tch, homophobia, sexism, and racism. However, I do feel through the medium of negative hip hop, those things have been placed on a unapologetic public pedestal and celebrated via Hip Hop, and mostly at the expense of black people.

Most of us probably all grew up watching people we knew cheat on their wives and girlfriends and treat women badly, is that reason to glamorize it and celebrate it today?

Yes, if you are black, more than likely you grew up hearing n*gga. But I am in my 30's and though I heard it as a child, I hear it now more than I ever have in my life. I hear other races using that word more than I ever have in my life. I never thought I would see a 13 year old black boy walk down the street with is underwear showing and it be ok. So am I crazy or did Hip Hop play a HEAVY hand in the increase use of n*gga and negative images of our people?

David T.
April 18 2007, 4:41PM

I saw the tail-end of Oprah's last night (or early this morning). I read most of what the show on her website.

1st off, Don Imus shouldn't have said what he have said. Second of all, we really need to stop calling people out their names. Nobody should be made to feel worse by being called the h*, n***a/er, b****, f*****, or any other name of ugliness.

I concur w/the comments that women shouldn't be degraded. Nor, those who in hip-hop/rap shouldn't have to use words like n***a/er in their music. It's one of several reasons I don't listent to a lot of rap/hip-hop music or even purchase it. It's too much profanity in the music.

It does seem to be a double-standard of who can say what. Basically, it's really one-sided. We need to learn eliminate hateful words like n***a/er, f*****, h*/w****, etc. We all should be able to say what we want as long as we do it w/reason and consciousness.

Blue
April 18 2007, 5:16PM

So the question begs to be asked then, what is the black community going to do about PROVIDING hip hop with stuff to draw from? It's bigger than wat they say or do. Take it beyond hip hop since people want to make this a black issue, and hold the black community at LARGE accountable for its tolerance of black men's behavior toward women, period, beyond music and videos. Take them to task for allowing male relatives to bring other women who everybody KNOWs they are fucking outside of their marriages around boys in the family like it's okay. Take them to task for condoning men having and four and five kids by a bunch of women (while they dog homos like us out, mind you). After all, that's where all of it starts. That's where all these boys got their ideas. As one guy above said, it all starts in the home. So again, in the big picture, hip hop is not the main issue.

Lois
April 18 2007, 5:27PM

I don't know who is worse, Imus for his slur, or all these posters here defending the usage of words that demean black women, and make ALL black people look like they are thugs and criminals and black women as loose tramps, which we as black people ALL know isn't true. I guess this slant should not be unexpected in this day and age when young blacks will buy records from the same artists who have them stereotyped around the planet as just plain no good. But, don't know body go blaming hip hop, that is a pure form of art that blacks should be proud to call our own,amazing the rationale.

And, for the poster who said being called a fool shows no class, sorry, being called a b and ho and lets not forget some pretty nasty homophobic rants out of nowhere in a lame rap cd is what I consider tasteless and the people who buy them, being called a fool is no where near as bad, but its the truth when you endorse that trash.

nova
April 18 2007, 5:48PM

Of course we need to be accountable for the conditions in our communities and make improvements. But it shouldn't be used as an ALTERNATIVE to artists & execs cleaning up their acts. These things must happen concurrently. Everyone must remember that the hip-hop people are complaining about now isn't the same hip-hop from 15 years ago. Hip-hop only hit its commercial stride within the past 10 years. So it must be argued that although the music isn't the total blame for the issues affecting us, it certainly has a way of commercializing and glamorizing the negative stereotypes of our culture on a larger, more accessible scale. I listen to a variety of hip-hop from the positive to the negative, but I cannot determine someone else's level of tolerance. Just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean it won't bother someone else, and they certainly have a right to speak out against it as much the acts have a right to perform it.

Lois
April 18 2007, 6:17PM

Well, Nova, your post is one of the most coherent in the defense of rap, but the line is thin between who can understand and distinguish the good and the bad. I wasn't aware that there was anything positive out there.

I'm not out for banning rap or anything else, I didn't even see the good reason why Imus was fired, since his comments are to be expected. What I still don't get is why rappers have this need to prove they are "men" by calling women names, I guess they and their fans must not have a Mother, sister, aunt, Big mama or have had any positive female or male figures in their lives. If, they teach young black men and women that they are b's and ho's and nothing else, how can anyone expect the public at large to show respect, when we don't respect our own.

This post traumatic slave reasoning for sending out a message of negativity is scary, since young blacks have no idea what the real world was like just 50 years ago, and trust me it was a whole lot worse than the hip hop poets don't know.

MidwestGuy
April 18 2007, 6:19PM

Lois I didn't notice any posters defending the use of degrading language. Check your emotions at the door because doing that will enable you to comprehend what you are ACTUALLY reading as opposed to reading what isn't there. Is there another article on this I missed? I don't think you are in ANY position to tell anyone how they "should" feel about ANYTHING. If "I" feel as if someone referring to another as a "fool" lacks class..that is my opinion and your differing opinion on that does NOT make you the judge of what "class" is. Do you now want to get into a "which phrase is worse" debate? I hope not because that would be ridiculous.

I've switched from listening to Luda now I'm listening to The Game now so what's your point?

O. Street
April 18 2007, 6:23PM

They (the hip hop culture) still don't get it. The shock value is over, the lyrics are getting tierd, and like a lot of street style, hip hop is getting tierd. Some made millions of dollars, some made nothing and overall "ignit" still remains.

Shabaka
April 18 2007, 6:32PM

While I agree with most of the comments on here, I can't help but express my disappointment in Russel's overall comments. Using such a poor analogy by saying that hip hop artists who have poor taste in their lyrics is the same as someone who grew up in some poor country in Africa singing about the same thing if given a microphone, was just laughable. Especially for someone in his position. He should know that poor people sing about their sufferings and grief. Which is far from what these people are doing.
On a side note, though, I'm glad that Oprah is finally making this issue a public one. It was about time she did.

Harold81
April 18 2007, 6:45PM

Well, this time around maybe the Hip Hop community should make the first move instead of society. Some people say art imitates life, well in a lot of cases I think life imitates art. I think of myself and my friends growing up and yelling DYNOMIIIIITe, while outside playing together. None of us did it before we saw Good Times. I also think of the very early 90's and my cousin in Phoenix City Alabama telling me about Drive by's happening there and my being shocked and wondering if the Glamorization of Drive by's in the black neighborhoods of Los Angeles via certain popular black movies and music, somehow was connected to the occurances in Alabama. Were drive by's in Phoenix City inevitable, or was there some type of influence from something?

I suppose my point is music and television has more power than many of us realize. Nothing has affected and influenced the Black community so profoundly and so broadly as Hip Hop, since Civil Rights, and something that powerful must be handled responsibly.

J
April 18 2007, 6:54PM

If we remove certain images and ideas from hip hop won't that also mean NO MORE SHOTS OF LL's pac n boobs as well as NO MORE Jessica Rabbit?

Robert Jones, Jr,
April 18 2007, 7:43PM

I wrote a bit about this at my blog:

http://thisisthediaspora.blogspot.com/

Mark
April 18 2007, 9:03PM

As much as I hate to admit it, I think the damage is DONE!!!

Kwesi
April 18 2007, 9:40PM

Blue, I get what you are saying. Indeed, there's a bigger picture. However, this Hip Hop issue definitely needs to be addressed because music is a very powerful medium. Positive results can be achieved through more positive music & videos.

But, yes there's a deeper issue. Let's explore why there's self-hatred. Let's explore why we use these terms within our own community. Let's explore how this American society has affected African-Americans. Let's explore the roots of the ills of our community. Let's explore why you were surrounded by non-positive Black men. What made them become what you described? These ills are being projected in the music. Why? We definitely need to look at the bigger picture to understand what's truly happening. Are not some things happening within our community by design? Let's explore that to get to the bigger picture.

Don't expect the white American media to address these questions, especially since we WILL have to look at history.

Lois
April 18 2007, 10:17PM

Thank you Kwesi, its a, music, a very powerful medium, and this is an issue that needs to be dealt within the black community. Like I said, its little boys trying to be men, and that's why they have rage issues with black women.

And, more black women are going to have to call them out for those lyrics, until then, we will be nothing but b's and ho's and sadly, when you can't get a lick of respct from black men, how can we expect it from anyone else?

I still don't get it why they can't be creative without being vile? Making up for shortcomings in other places must be the only answer.

VERB
April 18 2007, 11:44PM

@ Stuffed Animal...

Not defending any of the Day 2 panelists, bit I did want to point out to you Gil Scott Heron's "The Subject Was Faggots?"

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Talk-at-125th-Lenox/dp/B000005MLX?tag=dogpile-20

Gil's art ain't always My art.
Luda's art ain't My art at all.
W/we'll never agree on art as a society.

Mitch
April 18 2007, 11:47PM

Rap music which speaks affirmatively of violence is the reason my city is in the top 5 most violent places, especially for a black man, to live! Pray for us this summer!
Rappers speaking of "N this or that" spew anger onto other blacks; you never hear them spewing it to the dominant oppressors. They'll call you 'N' or 'F' but shoot themselves before addressing you as 'brother!
It is the music of succumbing to oppression. If rap music was any good to our community it would vehemently address black boys, men shootin' or poppin'and killin' us at the drop of a dime! Stanley Crouch was right: most rapp is the equivalent to the movie, Birth of a Nation, (we house is on fire, massa).

Kwesi
April 19 2007, 1:18AM

Lois, I understand your pain. I understand your disappointments. However, we MUST take time to investigate the roots of these issues. If not, we are going to create even more divisions within own community, especially male vs. female. And surely that's not going to make the future brighter.

We can holler all day long about what we're doing to each other, and how we act towards each other. And a lot of times, our anger is justifiable. However, we aren't addressing the right questions. There are deeply rooted psychological reasons as to why we're doing certain things in our own community. Until we address how we end these cycles, rather than battling each other about the things we do to each other, nothing will ever change. We have to have real dialogue about the evolution of our people here in America, open up our folk's eyes and minds to understand that some things we're doing to each other is by design. Your hatred towards your men is EXACTLY what they are hoping for. There is a bigger picture.

nova
April 19 2007, 2:36AM

I think it might also be worth pointing out that a lot of these radio/video programmers, promotional and corporate people are indeed black women. Don't think for one moment that women are not also part of this machine.

Fair is fair.

Kola Boof
April 19 2007, 4:34AM

They're not "REALLY" Black women, though....they're Octoroons and other 1/8th percent so called black BUT WHITE LOOKING women who Americans claim are black....and these women generally don't experience an authentic black female experience so they have no problems with the colorism and misogyny of the videos---you'll notice most of them are married to Non-black men. Why should they care about 50 Cents calling a black mother "ho"??? The fact is...they don't look like Patti LaBelle, Jasmyne Cannick and Jill Scott, therefore, their concerns are not the concerns of BLACK WOMEN. The Black males in charge, however, are truly BLACK MEN...but they raised these WHITE/WHITE/"Black" women to positions of power due to colorism in the first place.

TITI
April 19 2007, 8:02AM

WE NEED ART IN OUR COMMINUTY. WE NEED TO BE CREATIVE. BUT WHEN OUR CREATIVITIES BECOME DISTRUCTIVE, THEN IT IS NEITHER COOL NOR FUNNY ANYMORE. HIP HOP HAS CREATED A CUTURE OF SELF-DISTRUCTION AND UNEDUCATED FOOLISH CONSUMMERS AMONG US. BEEN FAMOUS DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE INTELLIGENT. MANY ASSHOLES ARE MAKING MILLIONS EVERDAY IN AMERICA...I EXPECT NOTHING ELSE FROM DOGGY DOG THAN WHAT HE HAS SAID.THIS GUY HAS NO OTHER CHOICE WHEN IT COME TO CARRIER CHANGE...
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT.

reality_check
April 19 2007, 10:05AM

I agree with most of the posters here in that Hip-Hop cultgure has done significant damage to our community. Hip Hop is pure GARBAGE, plain and simple! I am not shocked that Russell Simmons, Kevin Liles and Common were defending Hip Hop- that is their livelihood. Since russell thinks this is so poetic and artistic, someone should have asked him if he would condone his daughters dancing around in a thong bikini in some rapper's video while he pours Alize down her cleavage. Anyone who defends hip-hop is asleep at the wheel.

Mikey--He Likes It
April 19 2007, 10:10AM

At what point did rap start becoming so negative? I'm old enought to remember the very humble beginnings of rap and the innocent battles between MC's (yeah that's what they were called back in the day) and even the more deeper and progressive diatribes against conditions in our communities. Sadly, rap hasn't evolved but rather has declined (at least the commercial rap we always seem to hear) in it's artistic and poetic aspirations. The messages have become stale, repetitious, and hateful. If I see one more video with somone counting cash surrounded by scantily clad women I will just throw up. I grew up in the 70's and don't recall seeing warning labels on records and profanity laced lyrics demeaning women and gays. And why do these rappers look so mean and menacing all the time? You'd think with all the loot they make and carry around they'd have something to smile about. It's these and other disturbing images that our young people are emulating in their dress, language, and attitudes.

Kwesi
April 19 2007, 10:12AM

Nova, realize who are paying the salaries of these corporate sistas. Sure not other sistas.

We are engaging in another form of Black on Black crime without trying to figure out ways to get our folk out of mental bondage. All of these folk w/ destructive behaviors, folk who truly do not have the interest of Black America at heart, folk whose only concerns are themselves, folk who are pimping their own folk for the white man's dollar, folk with self-hating mentalities are all in mental bondage. But they do not know it.

What we need to figure out is how are we going to emancipate our own folk. Physical slavery ended in 1865, but mental slavery still continues. Educating our own folk is indeed a good start. Ignorance breeds destructive, self-hating behaviors.

fc
April 19 2007, 10:55AM

When those guys are talking about niggas and ho's they are talking about individuals that are around, rappers are just expressing facts that some are women are whores, there are whores and bitches in all races, i do agree the N word should stopped being used because all it is doing is making white people think it is ok to call us Niggers again, Women need to stop taking that ho word personally if you are not whoring around you are not a ho, if you respect yourself and not disrespecting no one you are not a bitch, I know some men will call you ho's no matter what,at the end of the day you know who you are.

Mikey--He Likes It
April 19 2007, 10:56AM

(Cont'd from previous post)And I'm tired of hearing rappers rap about our problems. Hell, we know what the problems are. How about some solutions? Or better yet doing something about the issues you're rapping about. Or how about rapping about something other than money, sex, homosexuals, bling, niggaz & ho's, bitches, and anything else derogatory and negative. It's a real sad state of affairs when young people respond to anything but their real names. I long for those days when people actually call you by your name and you respond in kind!!! And why oh why did it take Don Imus getting axed for us to start addressing this issue?

VERB
April 19 2007, 11:37AM

@ reality_check...

You don't get out much, do you? You said, "Hip Hop is pure GARBAGE, plain and simple!" That's just poppycock, plain and simple. Not to be an ass but I must pose this question (especially since I'm confident that you have all the answers based on your tone).... Do you have any concrete evidence to back up such a ridiculous statement or is that just based on your limited knowledge of hip hop? Not all hip hop is garbage. Don't be disillusioned into thinking that the uncouth rappers speak for all in hip hop. Unfortunately the great majority of rap that most people hear is not representative of the hip hop culture that I am a part of. Your generalizations of hip hop are equivalent to the myth that ALL Blacks are lazy and inferior. Those that spew thoughtless generalizations only keep U/us eternally ignorant and are assisting in the genocide of Black people. Now that's what I call sleeping at the wheel.

MidwestGuy
April 19 2007, 11:55AM

Realitycheck..yeah u really do need a reality check. If you are going to be critical of anyone in hip-hop, then Common should not be on your list of things to do. He is NOT one of those who perpetuates the misongyny and sexism in hip-hop. He just isn't.

Kola...you've completely lost me w/whatever point you were attempting to make. Octaroons? 1/8th? Hunh? Who are you referring to?

Mikey..the reason it has taken until now is because we usually are reactive..not proactive...much like Oprah's show. It was reactive show and nothing productive came out of it. Continuing to beat someone over the head certainly isn't the answer. Not in this case... The hip-hop industry is a replica of what the entire music industry (and society) is to date. Lack of originality, maturity, and more importantly most things center around sex, violence and drugs. Doesn't make it right...but it really is...

qtmia
April 19 2007, 12:37PM

WE, AS BLACK PEOPLE, NEED TO BE HONEST ABOUT COLOR!!!

I SEE SO MANY BLACK MEN AND BLACK GAY WOMEN COMMITTED TO POOR WHITE WOMEN WHO DON'T LOVE THEM...THEY WORK THREE JOBS WHY THEIR WHITE WOMEN STAY HOME AND GO SHOPPING. IT'S LIKE THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THE WHITENESS.

A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY DARK SKINNED AND THEIR GRANDMOTHERS TOLD THEIR MOTHERS "TO KEEP THEM OUT OF THE SUN OR THEY GONNA HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF PROBLEMS LATER ON IN LIFE" AND THEY HAVE MAJOR COLOR ISSUES!!!! AND THEIR WHITE WOMEN TELL ALL THEIR FRIENDS THAT THEY ARE ONLY WITH THEM FOR THE M-O-N-E-Y!!!!!

WE, IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY, HAVE WELL KNOWN BLACK PEOPLE WHO TELL THEIR WHITE FRIENDS THAT THEY WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH BLACK WOMEN AND BLACK MEN ... THESE WHITE PEOPLE HAVE SHOWN ME HOME VIDEOS OF THE WELL KNOWN BLACK PEOPLE DRINKING AND USING TERMS FAR MORE MENCING AND DISPICABLE THAN "NAPPY HEADED HO".

DDC
April 19 2007, 12:44PM

I agree, Rap music has become annoying, pathetic garbage. The lyrical content is all tired and stale, I mean how many times can you brag about materialistic stuff, demean women and recount crime stories that never happened? NWA/2Live was doing this TWENTY years ago! Even Hip-hop beats have become ultra shallow and uninspired now. We all should know from history what's coming. It's a fact that Hip-Hop's overall sales have steadily declined by 20% over the years (mainly because white males- who make up 80% of Rap's consumers- are growing up & moving on). Rap is going to become a joke just like Jazz babies, Beatniks, Hippies, Disco, & so on in time- so corny and passe that no one cool would want to be associated with it. Rap will fall out of the mainstream just like every other popular music has, and while it might always exist in some form, dressing/acting like 50 Cent will one day inspire the whooping laughter that dressing/acting like a Greaser would today.

David
April 19 2007, 1:04PM

In reference to a previous post, a few years ago I was channel surfing on t.v. and came across a silent movie.
After a few moments it showed Lincoln's assassination and I realized I was watching 'The Birh of A Nation'.
I made a conscious decision to watch the rest of this vile movie.
The most shocking thing about this movie to me besides the
raw undisguised racism was how the media depictions of us have remained unchanged.
Once you've seen this movie you'll never look at a HipHop video, news story or movie about us the same way again.
One memorable scene in the movie I must mention concerned election day, when the kkk lined up on horseback in front of the houses of Black people to prevent them from voting.
The caption read 'The Next Election'.
I always remember this scene when I go to vote.

Regan DuCasse
April 19 2007, 2:08PM

I'm very disappointed in Russell Simmons, the producer of "Def Poetry" series on HBO. Which I have nearly all the DVD's of that series. Guest rappers were woefully lacking in talent in comparison to the other poets on that show. Rappers are NOT poets.
They are the difference between diarrhea of the mouth, and true art.
Ladysmith Black Mambazo came from the poverty and violence of South African townships to produce some of the most haunting lyrics and music. We have the legacy of Paul Lawrence Dunbar and Langston Hughes to convey the pain of being black in America.
Our lives are better spoken of by those who aren't in it strictly for economic expedience, but for the poetry our lives really are.
Yeah, I said it.

bubba
April 19 2007, 3:28PM

I don't know what in the world Kola Boof is out to prove. For me, as someone said early on in this line of commentary, white women are not being subjected to the type of degredation these songs and videos depict(I guess they have Girls Gone Wild for that). Therefore it's every other female getting screwed. And whether you're the darkest of the dark or the fairest of the dark, non-white people know they're stuck in the undesirable "other" box. I don't buy the notion that women with Beyonce's complexion think their skin tone puts them above abuse. To come here and put the word "octoroon" in the discourse and say only certain women have an "authentic" black experience is laughable. Some bitterness about colorism has crept into the dialogue for no reason. And even if the theory is true, is it ok for hip-hop to crudely objectify the high-yellow ladies since they apparently get to sleep in the big house? Get real!

reality_check
April 19 2007, 4:09PM

I agree with most of the posters here in that Hip-Hop cultgure has done significant damage to our community. Hip Hop is pure GARBAGE, plain and simple! I am not shocked that Russell Simmons, Kevin Liles and Common were defending Hip Hop- that is their livelihood. Since russell thinks this is so poetic and artistic, someone should have asked him if he would condone his daughters dancing around in a thong bikini in some rapper's video while he pours Alize down her cleavage. Anyone who defends hip-hop is asleep at the wheel.

Bruce
April 19 2007, 4:11PM

I regard the focus on profanity in rap lyrics as a non sequitur. Don Imus got in trouble because he used foul racist language specifically directed at real people. In music, the lyrics virtually always involve imaginary persons. In my opinion the real focus should be on the bigotry and sexism that is rife on talk radio and Cable Networks. Every day, people like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Glenn Beck and others attack real people on their shows. The problem isn't Two Live Crew, its talking heads like Neil Boortz saying Rep. McKinney "looks like a ghetto slut" or Michael Savage with his daily homophobic ranting. Get these people off the air and leave rap music alone.

Kola Boof
April 19 2007, 5:57PM

EXCUSE ME "BUBBA" and "MIDWEST GUY"......someone stated that President of MTV is a "black woman"......MY POINT is that she could easily pass for ITALIAN/INDIAN and that this is why she (and other so called "black" women executives) are INSENSITIVE to the portrayals and demonization of black women in music videos....it's because these women ARE NOT REALLY BLACK, THEY DON'T LIVE BLACK WOMEN'S LIVES.....they support colorism and misogyny because IT SUPPORTS THEM. They "get over" on the Black Community by wearing the title "black woman" and being worshipped by colorstruck black men (who really are black) and make it possible for these women to render AUTHENTIC Black Women "INVISIBLE" and "VOICE-LESS". And that's a damned fact--just ask women like Vivica Fox, India Arie and Jill Scott.

curious887
April 19 2007, 6:46PM

Some of these comments are unreal! Of course we should fight racism in white society. That fight must not stop! However, that does not give our own people a free pass to refer to our women as hos and bitches. What in the world justifies this misogyny?

We have produced a generation of children who do not value education, who can barely read and write let alone speak English properly, but who know all the lyrics of the latest hip hop songs. It is one thing to relay the conditions of our hoods to educate the world about what we face to change things. It is quite another to glamorize these conditions as hip hop does. Our children want to live the thug life not escape it. And hip hop encourages this. And let's not even talk about the homophobia in hip hop.

I'm all about poetry and free expression. But do we sit around talking about white people all day when our own community needs to be taken to task for what we do to ourselves? Not!

rpcjr
April 19 2007, 7:15PM

i'm still trying to wrap my mind around L.T. Dinwiddie's comment wondering why Common was there. obviously, a couple videos have created a perception of him that isn't consistent with his actual album's content. he throws the n-, f-, and b-words around too.

hip-hop is just a microcosm of the attitudes and problems of Black America. and don't forget many a dude says the same things in R&B that rappers do, only with crooning. we all know the real problem is humans in general don't respect or value each other, regardless of race.

it's just sad to see black folks fighting for the right to use these words to describe themselves, their families, friends and fans.

Terrence
April 19 2007, 11:24PM

There is enough blame to go around. First, I really get tired of black women who don't want to acknowledge how black women play a role in the hip-hop madness. Nelly could have never swiped a woman's buttocks with a credit card in that video if she had not allowed him to do it. Plus, no one is forcing these women to dance damn near naked in videos. Almost all of the time it is a voluntary effort.

Second, I suspect there are bunch of hypocrites here as well. I am willing to bet that many of you go to gay beach parties and black gay prides wearing next to nothing and "drop it like it's hot" to rap music. Many of you lust after and say inappropriate things to men and women. I've seen it, and Snoop Dogg was not on the beach. Many of you probably share porn photos and videos.

I have been to many gay clubs where rap music is blaring and almost every queen in the club is on the dance floor. Come on, look in mirror. What are you doing to help proliferate bad rap music, sexism, homophobia? Stop blaming rap.

Kola Boof
April 19 2007, 11:53PM

LOL!!!! You're right, Terrace, because I dance my AZZ off to "GIN AND JUICE" (though I can't stand Snoop Frog), and it's highly rumored that I'm an A-line Hoochie-ass SLUT (Children: DO NOT believe rumors about Aunt Kola). Especially if you read my autobiography.....AND...if you click on the link to my web address for this particular post, you'll see that my next novel "VIRGINS IN THE BEEHIVE" is a raunchy Hip Hop sex fest--replete with Gay Music moguls and cocaine-laced Cave Parties. YOU GOT ME, I GIVE UP. Now...when will you be arriving to give me that spanking, daddy. Being a fag doesn't get you off the hook, naughty boy. I want EVERY SINGLE LICK!

bubba
April 20 2007, 1:24AM

So now that you've tackled the female leadership at MTV, Kola, what does that have to do with BET? I don't see any "octoroon" women running that. They ought to take the lead in depicting our ethnicity with dignity, regardless of what MTV packages for the masses. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with "Confessions of a BET Producer" currently on display at MySpace. And if you really believe a woman with a hand in misogyny benefits from it, that's pretty sad. She pays, regardless of momentary financial gain. I still don't recall a response to my earlier query. If you think the women in the videos aren't black enough, or, as dark as you, I assume - then what is your complaint on the basis of colorism? Do you feel deprived of the opportunity to get a credit card swiped through your butt cheeks? Ironically, leaving dark skinned women out of the equation in those clips may be doing you a favor.

Kola Boof
April 20 2007, 4:50AM

Bubba...COLORISM in "portaying female images" reflects what the people "WANT TO BE" and what they psychologically and sociologically place "VALUE" upon.

It doesn't matter whether the women on BET are butt naked or University Professors or news anchors----the fact that a "black channel" claiming to represent 43 million BLACK people DISALLOWS the physical image and physical beauty of its own mother is proof that Black people consider themselves inferior and is proof that black men do not wish to procreate black men. Instead, they want to breed out of their race, to procreate children who are not aesthetically or "authentically" black. THAT...is what those images represent and that message is a poison that I do not want MY SONS to receive from American blacks. I come from North Africa where whole nations of blacks have been DECIMATED by this "slave" mentality, the only difference is that our master was ARAB. I DONT WANT MY GRANDKIDS to look like negroid Hawaiians. BET equals "Mulatto Follies". ERASURE .

DDC
April 20 2007, 7:30AM

First, I really get tired of black women who don't want to acknowledge how black women play a role in the hip-hop madness... Second, I suspect there are bunch of hypocrites here as well. I am willing to bet that many of you go to gay beach parties and black gay prides wearing next to nothing and "drop it like it's hot" to rap music.

Terrance, do tell, where are these women who don't want to acknowledge other women's roles in this garbage??? Provide some links or even real andecdotes of them (not four or five) but hordes of these fallcious critics that you claim are out there. Your whole post is based merely on your ASSumptions, you even admit it when you "suspect" gays are raunchy hypocrites. That's the problem when it comes to debates on this issue, people just want to listen to/read back their own opinions instead of exchange ideas. PS, your blog sucks rotten eggs, proves that just because a person has one doesn't mean they have an ounce of insight or eloquence.

Joseph
April 20 2007, 8:59AM

Is Hip Hop Sexist - YES
Is Hip Hop Misogynistic - YES
Is Hip Hop Homophobic - YES

But the reason why hip hop has these issues is because Hip Hop is a product of and a reaction to the culture, and history of The United States of America. MC Jamal "Shyne" Barrow said it best "Hip Hop isn't responsible for violence in America America's responsible for violence in America". This issue is about Don Imus and both his Racist and Sexist remarks to the women of the Rutgers baksetball team and even though we as Hip Hop have some issues to be worked out I am enraged at how Hip Hop is once again being scapegoated and we need to get back to putting the blame where it belongs and in this case it is Don Imus

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 9:22AM

{hurredly skipping past Kola's post after he asserts that Christina Norman could pass for Italian}

Yes, as someone stated gays are hypocrites as well. I have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen ANY brothas at gay clubs do a mass exit off the dance floor when the DJ plays ANY popular song (Luda, 50, Jay, TI, Ying-Yang etc). When that happens, then I'll believe how "serious" they are.

DDC: You say that the "problem when it comes to debates on this issue [is that] people just want to listen to/read back their own opinions instead of exchange ideas."
To qoute you: "blog sucks...doesn't mean [he] has an ounce of insight or eloquence?" And the exchanging of ideas in the above "criticism" is where again? It's early in the morning...I'm a tad bit slow.

Nevertheless I ask, can you provide some links or even real anecdotal evidence (not four or five) but hoardes of these women who actually "acknowledge" their role in perpetuating this hip-hop madness?

Kola Boof
April 20 2007, 9:58AM

Midwest Guy...."KOLA BOOF" Is a WOMAN and mother of two sons. Get it straight and KEEP IT straight. Now skip your ass to that.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 10:28AM

My apologies...I wrongly assumed (based on the manly tone in your posts) that you were either a male/drag queen. Again, my apologies.

Kola Boof
April 20 2007, 10:32AM

All is forgiven my love.

DDC
April 20 2007, 10:36AM

Lol, you need to mind your business because I wasn't talking to you in the 1st place. And I don't need to provide any links because I never made any sweeping, generalizing claims about groups of people in the first place so the burden doesn't fall onto me to back anything up. What I find astounding is that you type of people actually suggest with a straight face that critics of CRap music are the very same ones dancing to it in the videos and in the nightclubs- and in turn that those same tacky video models & misguided clubgoers are the ones critical of it when the music isn't playing. Come on, you are far too intelligent not to realize that there exists two separate groups of black people here. Face it, Hip-Hop music is a tired, absurd, dying genre and in ten-to-fifteen years it'll be about as en vogue as Ragtime & the Cakewalk is today, LOL.

Tony Cee
April 20 2007, 10:41AM

At the end of the day, no matter who is responsible for the genus of disrespetful lyrical characterizations of black women, women in general, or black people, in Hip Hop. That we, AS black people would, knowing the ugly realities adopt the use of it is illogical at best and representive of a defective mental rationality at worst.

Mother is not a bitch, Father is not a N----, Daughter is not a Ho, unless, it a musical entertainer using the terms as a mirror to depict what they "poetically" see as the realities of society. How foolish does that sound, but even more foolish, are those that will forward this logic to defend the indefensible.

Luke
April 20 2007, 10:44AM

Go on now Kola Boof, stand your ground, its obvious that women are getting as little respect in this thread as they are in that rap crap.

I'm a white man, and for the life of me, I don't see why rap is considered so great when it denigrates black women, and then to read that just because a few have fallen into that trap of low self esteem and appear in those vulgar videos, and must mean all black woman are like that is as disgusting as Imus and his take on black women, some of these comments really are surprising coming from what I thought would be enlightened black gay men on this site.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 11:06AM

DDC..Unless I'm still a tad bit slow, I didn't realize that Terrance was talking to "you" when he posted either. Double Standard?

The defensive tone in your post questioning Terrance's "assumptions" would lead a reasonably intelligent person to believe that you disagreed w/what he said. I don't believe that people would protest the war if they had no evidence that we're losing.

It doesn't take much "intelligence" to "personally" know both men and women who are adamantly against hip-hop. Yet, they (as I've seen) HAVE danced to the lyrics at clubs. Yes there are two separate groups here..."those who are actually concerned and will act on those concerns," and "the hypocrites."

I believe they still manufacture geritol.

Terrence
April 20 2007, 11:29AM

Kola Boof, LOLOL! Been there done that. It wasn't too bad actually.

DDC, interesting comment. Did I suggest all black women? Certainly not. I think you are being a bit histrionic. Hordes? Fallacious critics? Raunchy? I think you need to read what I wrote again, bro. I must have hit a nerve.

And if you are interested, you can visit the following websites where you can find my commentary (posted and/or linked) - Cursor.org, About.com, MyDD.com, Google Finance, Nation Times, Women Rights NY.com, XXL magazine.com, Keith Boykin.com among others. I try to be versatile - socially.

reality_check
April 20 2007, 12:11PM

Black people are the most uninformed people on earth! I dont see how anyone could support a culture that degrades our mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers...the same black women that HAVE and CONTINUE birth and carry our race. We as black men need to do better than this. We still don't realize that the progression of a race is dependent on the MEN..that means us...!
MidwestGuy, Verb, et al...you all can defend hip-hop all you want to. THe bottom line is that these "artists" are nothing more than modern day minstrel characters selling their stupid souls and denigrating their people just to move to a higher tax bracket. WHile I do know that not all hip-hop is negative, lets face it, those "conscious" rappers are not the ones going 6 times platinum. Seems society at large love to see blacks make fools of themselves and are ready to reward anyone willing to do so. Protest if you must...but Hip Hop as we know it today is pure GARBAGE...And this is coming from a 28 yo black MAN.

DDC
April 20 2007, 1:00PM

Preach, Reality check. Listening to today's CRap is no better than pulling bubble gum off the bottom of one's shoe and chewing it! Its no better than swallowing a bunch of raw eggs, throwing them back up into a frying pan, cooking them into an omelette then re-eating it! And no, I'm not exaggerating, that's how unnecesary today's CRap music is. I'm just hoping that once Hip-Hop inevitably dies and becomes an outdated joke, the next popular form of Black music will regain the substance and creativity that it always had prior to the 90's. Rap music had an excellent run, especially from the late 1970s-c.1990 if one places artistic merit over commecial success. What's insane, though, is that these original fans can't let go! They over thirty years old, some even gonna to hit 50 sooner or later and still listening to a music that's always been meant for school-age people.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 1:08PM

Reality>28 hunh? Well dude that's well beyond the age of not being able to read and comprehend w/out injecting an obviously negative bias into a reasonably debatable discussion. I didn't notice anyone here "defend" hip-hop. But, your failure to reason won't allow you to see that. It's almost like an anti-gay person suggesting that gays are promiscuous, women wanna-be's w/stupid souls...just because they don't like us. I mean we are promiscuous and act like women don't we. (Miss Thing..ugh) What an exagerration to the highest!

As a black GAY male, I take pride in knowing that we have people like you (refers to his own as minstrel characters w/stupid souls) who can sit perched high and represent what being a real black "informed" man is all about.

Terrence
April 20 2007, 1:36PM

reality_check, I think many of us could and must do better. Destructive rappers aren't just black and male. They are female too (albeit fewer).

Furthermore, any individual (or group) that has any form of participation in proliferation of the hip-hop madness is at fault - the video "models", destructive male and female rappers, producers, radio, television, execs, clubs, buyers, suburbanites, urbanites, gays, straights, bisexuals etc.

While I don't accept damaging rap music by any means, as I see it, the destructive rappers/poets/artists aren't solely responsible for propagating the madness. Surely they should start with themselves, but truly there is enough blame to go around.

Derrick from Philly
April 20 2007, 1:38PM

Well, I declare.
I've tried to stay out of this discussion because all views have pretty much been represented, and I always feel on shaky ground when I argue against the artistic merits of Rap. Young folks convince me that my dislike of the music is simply, "yo' opinion." I don't think anyone here on this blog, or any blog, is damaged by Rap music. I don't think folks with some formal education or church background are damaged by Rap. But young people like those in my home neighborhood of NOrth Philadelphia, the "ghetto", do they know the difference between the lyrics in the music and how a civilized human is supposed to behave?--obviously not. It damages them, along with systematic racism and discrimination.

Snoop Dog is a liar. The Rappers make no distinction between "good" black women and "bad" black women. See what happens when young thugs come on to a black woman in public and she ignores them, or gives them a simple "hello" and keeps going. They yell obscenities like savages.

bubba
April 20 2007, 1:45PM

Maybe you come from North Africa, Kola, but we live in a vastly multi cultural society here. For anyone to advocate colorism is truly disgusting, and the idea that hip-hop would do it systematically is repulsive. But are you having a problem with miscegenation now? It takes 2 tango, and black people are obviously finding willing parties outside their ethnicity to have children with. Like it or not, there could very well come a day when everyone in the U.S. looks like Mariah Carey and Tiger Woods. God help your descendants if they find love outside of your color range! Should hip-hop now promote colorism in order to maintain a pure breed? Do we put Eminem and Bubba Sparxx out of business too? At a certain point, some things are colorless, because they're simply American. Paul Mooney's line about wanting his "white folks white" and his "black folks black" may sound cute, but it's not realistic, regardless of atrocities in the motherland. I don't think hip-hop should maintain that notion either.

JaredW
April 20 2007, 1:47PM

This "conversation" is getting a little TOO personal. Let's focus on the topic at hand. In my opinion, hip-hop and rap are two separate genres, sometimes overlapping, sometimes not. For instance, I think Mary J. is a hip-hop artist (overlapping with R&B), so we should not confuse the two. I think black music as a whole needs to have a change in tone, but rap (not necessarily hip-hop) in particular is extremely damaging to our young people. I hear 4-5 year olds spouting Candy Shop but do not know how to read! Our fatherless young men are looking to Young Joc and Fifty-Cent as role models (Jesus take the wheel!), and they think to be a man is to be like them. THAT is why rap needs to be revolutionized. But more importantly, parents need to hold THEMSELVES accountable: if you teach your child how to read at 3 years and how to read by 4 years, if you show them how to be a REAL man/woman, if you instill in them a sense of PURPOSE and offer them a strong spiritual base, then rap won't stand a chance!

bubba
April 20 2007, 2:16PM

You say hip-hop & rap are separate, JaredW, but it's hard to find an r&b or hip-hop record without a cameo by a rapper. Mary J. is certainly no exception to that rule. She has repeatedly allowed the same filth mongers we oppose to get exposure on her albums, many times returning the favor. To the enlightened listener, how is she anything but complicit?

Tyrone
April 20 2007, 2:24PM

Wow, this debate has turned nasty and personal, and still does not actually "debate" the issue of just how good or bad rap is. I for one think its bad, it sends a negative mage of young black men and women all over the globe. And, for Simmons to say its "poetry" is beyond laughable, since when did an inability to actually sit down and compose lyrics that actually mean something, other than lick this, kiss that my "ho's" and "niggas" become poetry?

While, its not a form of music for me, the only "good' rap is that old Sugar Hill stuff that one of my brothers listened to in the old days, when the music focused on issues that affected their communities. Now, I still don't see why all the women are gold diggers and "ho's," and why every other word is "nigga," call me that and you had better be ready to rumble, since its neither funny nor endearing to this out black, gay man.

But, to each his own, but, please, don't get ticked off when white folks call you names, its all freedom of speech, LOL!

VERB
April 20 2007, 3:07PM

OMG, it's Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter in blackface! Some of these posts... now there's the minstrel show. It feels like O'Reilly, Hannity and Coulter are posting under different screen monikers. LMAO at those unwilling to listen to any other reasoning than their own.

I wonder if you would have defended jazz and rock 'n' roll while critics bashed it years ago? I hope you do know jazz was considered low-class by some Blacks who considered classical music more cerebral and less savage.

Soft eyes, people, soft eyes.

Tyrone
April 20 2007, 3:20PM

VERB, I'm curious as to why you would say that a black person who isn't fond of "rap" is some sort of right wing nutcase? Its not my cup of tea on any level,old school r&b and disco for me, but, I do think they need to be more conscious of what they say, or spew. There is no way young black men are ever going to get respect from the public at large when the only thing they know is the gangsta lifestyle, be it real or one they aspire to, since it seems that these young men don't see education as a way out of poverty as previous generations of blacks have.

And, for the life of me, I wish someone would tell me why using the "niggas" and "ho's" in their songs is art?And, why demean women? That's the only thing I want someone to explain. Not telling anyone what to listen to or to buy, but, just want a answer as to why rap is such a good thing for black people on this planet, and eveyone else feels free to use slurs as freely as the rappers do.

David
April 20 2007, 3:33PM

I have a question for the group. I have been told in the past that the majority of people who actually buy Rap and Hip Hop music are white males.
Can anyone verify if this is true?

Khan
April 20 2007, 4:11PM

Another Oprah show, another chance for black people to argue without addressing the real issue. Until we learn to unite and go after those who control content expect artists like 50 cent, Ludacris, and Snoop Dog to thrive. Radio programmers, music executives, and coporate america in general need to feel some type of pressure from the black community, otherwise all these round table discussions are pointless.

I don't believe censorship will solve anything at this point, 2 Live Crew proved that banned content can still sell without the support of commercial radio. I'm not sure coporate america would back down so easily if they were challenged, but when is anyone going to step up?

And please don't respond and say I'm defending rappers because I'm just as appalled by some of the lyrics as anyone else. However, it's in our best interest to look at the problem from all angles.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 4:16PM

Tyrone..I "believe" that Verb is using those names in jest. In that, some posters have a very myopic view on this - very "you're either w/us or w/us"-like. This is similar to how O'Reilly and the crew are. Having such a narrow view makes you incapable of "thinking outside the box."

I don't think that anyone can explain "why" rappers chose to use such lyrics in their music. But I assume it has something to do w/the culture. I use nigga, bitch, and ho from time to time mainly because it's part of popular language. Now of course, I never use the terms towards women. I know MANY gay men who use "bitch" quite frequently when referring to each other. None of which makes it right.

I can't really answer "why" people feel as if rap is good for the "planet" because I don't know anyone who feels that way.

David, these numbers are put out by the music industry. I have to assume there's a bit of truth to it.

JaredW
April 20 2007, 4:30PM

To Bubba: No, I do not feel that Mary J. is complicit because she offers MORE than just sex, drugs, and violence. Mary offers lyrics that empower women (and some men...holla!), refusing to allow herself to remain in one emotion. She sings happy songs, sad songs, etc. Variety is key. The OVERWHELMING majority of rap music has no variety; it's the same ol' thing, from videos to lyrics. And while more whites buy rap than blacks NUMBER-WISE (they ARE the majority), more blacks buy rap than whites PERCENTAGE-WISE (we make up 13% of the population, but buy over 25% of rap music). Plus, white rap fans tend to grow out of that "stage" after a few years, but black men tend to listen to rap WAY into their thirties, forties, etc. And for those who equate jazz with rap: negro, please. Jazz IS aural poetry.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 5:00PM

Jared..I would've been w/u on Mary (whom i love) but you kinda went sideways a bit. If we're speaking of complicity, then we have to include Mary who has performed w/some of the most popular "misogynists" such as Ludacris and Diddy. She also did Busta's touch-it remix which included phrases like "WHEN I GIVE A NIGGA SOME PLAY HE LOSIN HIS BRAIN...He thinkin cause he spent a little dough I'm 'gon fuck (rah Digga) AND I'm jinglin baby, go 'head mami, don't I look charmin put your lips up on me/Kiss it, touch it, good, yes I wish you would! (Missy)
I'm assuming you give her a pass because she "empowers women?"..lol

Rap has only been popular since the early 80's (maybe not 25 years) so I would think it difficult to determine at what age people "usually" stop listening to it. If blacks (13% of population) account for 25% of rap purchases, what group (%-wise) accounts for the remaining 75%? I'm guess i'm just trying to understand your data.

J
April 20 2007, 5:02PM

Do I think every last rap lyric is poetry, no, but I refuse to tear down a genre. That's no better than assuming all black men are XXXL white tee wearing, trigger happy fools.

Oh and I love the people that talk about these terms as if an expletive has never left their mouth.

Some of you are so happy sitting back with white people acting as if ridding the world of hip hop will actually change it.

No I'm not saying every black person has to defend hip hop like their child, but doesn't anyone see how disgusting and similar it is to every other moment in history when we created a genre that became popular.

Hip hop is being given a ridiculous amount of credit. It is NOT raising young men.

You all have no idea how happy Imus is right now. Many of us are basically defending him and really any white person that decides to spit on us.

DDC
April 20 2007, 5:11PM

LOL, Jared, these Rap fanatics are getting mighty desperate. Now it's true that Jazz music was once very controversial, but that was after WHITE kids started listening to it in the '20's. Older whites were terrified of Jazz music because not only was it a black-created, but in its original form it sounded very raunchy and the flapping dances people did to it was considered sexually vulgar. Whites feared that their kids were acting too much like the blacks... wait, this is sounding very familiar. And the same goes for Rock & ROll in the 50's. All that being said, Jazz & Rock artists never demeaned fellow blacks or wrecklessly went out their way to further damage the image of blacks in this world. To compare Jazz to Rap is like comparing fillet mignon to F'N SPAM. The only smiliarity is that both genres created white panic, that's it. I've never in all of my studies came across information that blacks were disturbed by Jazz music.

JaredW
April 20 2007, 5:18PM

I am not saying Mary J. is perfect, but at least she remains in control of her image and how she presents herself. And who she associates herself with does not concern me---no artist is perfect. Now, in terms of statistics, it is quite simple. Blacks buy about 25% of rap music, Latinos 15%, Asians fewer then 5%. The remaining 55% of rap is bought by whites (see Pew Research center). Now, blacks make up ONLY 13% of the population in America, but we are buying 25% of rap music. Whites make up over 65% of the population, but are "only" buying 55% of rap music. Ergo, more blacks IN RELATION TO THE POPULATION buy more rap music than whites--not in numbers but in percentage of people. But the IMPACT of rap music has done more harm to the black community than any other genre of music. From gangsta posturing, to East Coast-West Coast drama, to the commodification of young women, rap has offered very little in the way of uplift and empowerment.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 5:32PM

DDC>You haven't? Then obviously your "studies" have been very limited. Some blacks (DuBois'n crew) were also in opposition to the "poetry" of Claude McKay, Zora Neale and Langston. It's all there..(see studies on the Harlem Rennaisance).

Jared..oh ok..using those interesting numbers I see your point.

I wasn't speaking of who Mary "associates" w/. I was talking about who she "chooses" to do business w/. Fact is, Mary willingly participates in making music w/those whose lyrics many (including those here) find EXTREMELY offensive and degrading.

BTW, You don't think that T.I and 50 are in control of their image and how they present themselves? I think you are giving Mary a "pass" unecessarily.

J
April 20 2007, 5:43PM

Will LT continue to promote the rap acts he referenced?

i'm your mamma, i'm your daddy
i'm that nigga in the alley
i'm your doctor, when in need
want some coke, have some weed

JaredW
April 20 2007, 5:50PM

Midwest, I am not giving Mary a pass. Mary J. offers options in her music: I can be uplifted, angry, happy, thoughtful, etc. But there is VERY little rap that offers those choices. You either get sex or violence. Is this all that rappers can see? If so, they need to use that "paper" to travel the world, instead of buying rims and metal teeth. You do make good points, though, in regards to who Mary associates herself with. For someone who has been abused by several of her lovers, she needs to stay away from performers who lead suspect lives themselves.

True, SOME rappers have a little control over their product (very few, I might say), the overwhelming majority of rappers are pay-for-play. They are at the whim of their record companies, and can hardly read the contract they are signing. My main point is this: it is time for rap music to EXPAND IT'S REPERTOIRE. There is more to life than what these rappers rap about. Be creative. That's all.

Derrick from Philly
April 20 2007, 6:08PM

Blues people NEVER hated black women the way that these Rappers do. When Robert Johnson sang about "beaten my woman," he also sang about "Hell hounds after him". He knew that the abuse of black women was wrong and he'd be punished for it.

As far as Jazz: well, Jazz musicians may have been a bunch of male whores, but they never practiced misogyny in their music--their art. If you disagree, find it and prove it to me.

DDC
April 20 2007, 6:22PM

MidwestDude, stop sniffing the glue, I said Jazz & Rock, not writers or poets of the 20’s. And do yourself a favor and study the history of the genre you’re so passionate about. Rap’s been popular “maybe not twenty-five years”? Rap has been popular since the early 1970’s (unless popularity to you is simply measured by whites fans). I’m from The Bronx, I was THERE. You Midwestern hicks were still listening to The Doobie Brothers at that time. You probably think Rapper’s Delight was the first Rap song, don't you LOL? You see, before The Games and Nellys there were The Cold Crush Brothers, The Furious 5, Funky Four+1, Africa Bambataa(sp), Kurtis Blow, Sequence, Treacherous 3, etc. That particular Hip-Hop is considered crude and unpolished by today’s’ slick production standards, but it's fun, catchy, and has a charming ambition & spontaneity about it all. And it wasn’t always squeaky clean, either. But you unlearned dorks think Run-DMC invented Rap the way whites think Elvis invented Rock. SAD.

MidwestGuy
April 20 2007, 7:12PM

Jared>Really you are. I'm assuming that you don't listen to hip-hop. I will in no way suggest that all hip-hop lyrics are uplifting and positive but one would actually have to listen to the music of any genre (beyond radio) to gauge it's variety. You have to go "beyond" what is played 24/7 on the radio. Even the worst offenders (LUDA) offer "options" (see Runaway Love featuring Mary)

DDC>The musicians you refer to were "popular" w/in the burroughs of NYC. I 'believe' Run DMC were the ones to "popularize" rap. That is unless you would have us believe that The Fab 5 and Cold Crush Brothers "popularized" rap. Since you are from the Bronx, I can understand the arrogance. Quite similar to those born in DC who think "go-go" is popular.

BTW>I believe it's past time for your meds.

Tyrone
April 20 2007, 10:15PM

@Midwestguy, thanks for explaining it, I guess I'm just too old to get it all though. I guess I must be one of the few black people who has never once uttered the n-word or called a woman a "ho," or any of my gay friends a "bitch." And, yes, my elderly parents did use it and most of my relatives,n-word, but, even now they feel foolish for doing so since they hear the young Hispanic guys across the street with rap blaring and are embarassed, so that's a big step for them to stop using it, as I assume it will be for anyone. But, like my dad says, it was fine to use it within the black communtity, but, the line and the door is opened for anyone to use it via music,movies, etc., so, I guess I'll stay stuck in the 1960's and 1970's musical genre!

Where is a replacement for the late Mr Barry White or Sylvester, or a black Michael Jackson in 2007, LOL!

LT
April 20 2007, 11:41PM

@J

First off I am honored that my opinion has sparked such a healthy debate on Keith’s site. I have been silently paying attention until now.

As far as questioning if I will continue to support the culture that I blasted, or challenged to progress, I remain on the fence. For me personally it isn’t as easy to just turn off the music because I am in the industry. A big part of my job is music. The politics of the “business” alone won’t allow me that comfort.

But what I will say is that I won’t be pumping my fists for artists that purposely spew such offensive and hateful lyrics. And to be fair I don’t want to blame all rappers for what the popular ones put out. There are tons of rappers who offer positive and progressive music that if consumers sought they’d find. I live in Atlanta and I know a bunch of record stores that carry positive hip-hop artists. But usually their message gets lost amongst all the mainstream musical acts

shannon
April 21 2007, 1:07AM

de la soul, michael franti and spearhead, lauryn hill, people under the stairs, queen latifah, common, mos def, big daddy kane, will smith, jill scott, salt and pepa, etc. etc. These are a few of the artists that I've been drawn too. There will always be groups that demean women in some level because, as many have said, it is part of the culture. What frustrates me is that there isn't more balance. I stopped listening to the radio years ago because of what was being put on the there as a representation of hip hop. There is room for everybody but, apparently, the negative side gets the most coverage.

LT
April 21 2007, 8:36AM

I for one haven’t purchased music in three years, well other then Janet’s stuff. So I don’t consider myself to be apart of the consumerism. But going forward I will challenge those who decide to put out bullshit and try to sell it as art.

So now when I interview people from within the industry I’m going to have more to talk about then just their current project at hand. I’ve been a fan of hip-hop since I was knee high. But as I grow, mature and evolve, I can’t say that the culture has done the same. So it’s either going to have to change…..or I’m going to have to completely disconnect.

Thank you all for your positive comments and personal emails. They have meant the world to me.

And to Keith...we’ll talk again soon.

LT

Oh and by the way, don’t forget where you can always get it “Hot and Black”—O1LT.com

Miss Statement
April 21 2007, 9:20AM

Kola Boof......I love your point of view of the world. I have a very similar viewpoint......Its a blessing to hear you speak MY truth to light......many blessings to you and yours!

David
April 21 2007, 11:07AM

LT, could you please list some of the names of the positive/progressive rap arts you were writing about?
I try to support positive people in our community monetarily if I can, by buying their products.

Kola Boof
April 21 2007, 9:21PM

Miss Statement, thank you. I'm just an African mother who loves her black babies as any other NORMAL race of woman would love its children. I am also technically bi-racial (my father was White Arab Sunni Egypto) and I have had several long term romantic relationships with men who aren't black (I lived with a white man for five years). I have love for all human beings, but I'm not willing to support MEDIA IMAGES (ie. HipHop Videos) that PROMOTE/PERPETUATE the erasure of my own people and that's all I'm saying and will always say. Of course many Black Americans cringe when they come across black people who actually love blackness with the same NORMALITY that white people love whiteness. I notice everything in this society is allowed to be celebrated but MY CHILD.

Elizabeth
April 21 2007, 9:58PM

I've been reading all of your comments. So many of you expressed my views on on this situation. We really are at war! I want to start a boycott very similar to the www.stopdrlaura.com campaign. That was extremely successful.

I'm a black, female, mid thirties, hetero who lives on the east coast. If you're interested in joining the fight, please send an email to: elizabethgreen2@yahoo.com. I'm going to create a website and welcome any and all ideas. Help!

ban liberals
April 22 2007, 4:10AM

Liberals are complete retards and anyone who believes their crap is pretty stupid too. They disrespect our troops and are unamerican!

Liberalism- Abandon the search for the truth settle for a good fantasy.

LIBERALS ARE COMPLETE LIARS AND LOSERS!

You are eiether RIGHT or WRONG!
VOTE RIGHT!

Miss Statement
April 22 2007, 10:09AM

Thank you for your candidness Miss Kola! Your heritage is very interesting and I can now envision your truth more now that you have shared some of your background with me. I get verbally lambasted on virtually every platform I profess my INTENSE LOVE for my blackness. It seems that most take it as a "more dignified" form of racism. I always beg to differ add interject that inherently, "racism" requires considrable, irrevocable power that not ONE African-American has (lol, maybe Oprah).
I too have been intimate with men outside my race but, my family arrived in the America's during slavery--so 8 generations of my ancestors have endured this tyrannical show of humanity they call Amerikkka. Oppression of the darker skinned people I have learned over the years is an epidemic that has been, is and always will be. All in all, It's so refreshing to hear it echoed out in the world. I also went to your website, its awesome. I'll check it out more often. Thank you again for the positivity! and truth you spe

sterling
April 22 2007, 9:08PM

I happen to enjoy hip-hop. sometimes i feel like the office bitch, and then i go to school, and say something totally stupid. i feel a little down.

I turn on some Ludacris Moneymaker and it gives me something. Some confidence when i feel totally dejected. I listen to conceited by remy ma, and i feel like nothing can stop me when i go out.

i admit my life is not worth death and destruction, but this is America. And I am the one buying this music. I am giving money to Ludacris and Remy because I enjoy them.

please listen to the music and find out what people get out of it. In a world that can be very lonely, I feel like a million dollars from it.

sterling
April 22 2007, 9:39PM

And I just want to say this is America.

I am an individual. Do not dictate to me what I should be listening to and what I should not. This is not some Platonic State where the talented 10th decide what furthers our society and race.

I think there are class undertones in this discussion that need to be addressed and the rich should not judge the poor, you should help them. And not through damn fundraisers spending $500 a table. and stop the corruption, i am young student and my dreams of America being a place where your merits count are being squashed every day, in Black America or otherwise.

dont attack hip hop, I attack your classist, elitist, socially unjust society which has taken the hope and drive out of many a man. Be modest, be Equal.
-So where'd you go this summer?
-Spain, Italy?
-both.
-good for you. hypocrite.

cmoney
April 22 2007, 11:29PM

I don't see the attack on vulgar lyrics and degrading images of women as classist or elitist, unless you believe that it is OK for poor people to be treated and regarded as undeserving of respect or dignity. Paris Hilton is rich and one of the biggest sluts around and no concientious person wants her to be a role model for their daughter. I think cleaning up the images of Black people can only help the "lower classes" (I am not too fond of that term). When you hear poor Black person, what images do you think of? Dangerous, criminal, whore, drug addict, gangster, hand guns? Now think of a poor White person. Do you see a gangster? A criminal? A hooker? A crackhead? Probably not. The world's image of poor Blacks is basically controlled by the so called thugs from the 'hood who claim to be artists, "keepin' it real". They are not helping Black people by continuing to portray all Blacks as criminals, whores and drug addicts. BTW, I'm vacationing in London.

edwin greene
April 23 2007, 9:08AM

Anderson Cooper had a very interesting segment on "60 Minutes" last night. He exposed for a national audience the "no snitching" atitude that has taken hold of black neighborhoods from coast to coast.

Because black people are afraid to "tell" on criminals, murderers and other criminals are getting away with their crimes. This is, in a way, FAR worse than the racist/sexist/homophobic rap lyrics we have been complaining about.

Murderers, for example, are walking the streets of black neighborhoods everywhere UNPUNISHED because witnesses are afraid to come forward. This is frightening. The black man you see walking down the street towards you may have killed someone and GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT. Who wants to live in the "hood" if you can afford to live somewhere else?

Jeff
April 23 2007, 10:07AM

One long, strange, interesting thread, and many different opinions, but, the one thing that is lost is that the American public and the rest of the world can't tell the difference between "good" law abiding blacks and the "thuggish" thieves and others who the rappers want to be, since all one sees in the media is the negative images. So, until something is done about that image, all blacks will be swept up in the rap/hip-hop umbrella of women being "ho's" and men, well, men with small endowments who had no father in the home to teach them how to be strong, positive black men.

edwin greene
April 23 2007, 11:59AM

My point (see my comments above) is that some rappers are putting out "music" accusing blacks who "snitch" of being traitors to the black community and suggesting that "snitchers" be killed.

This message from rappers, that blacks should not turn black criminals in to the police, is a primary reason why so many murderers, and other criminals, are not being charged and prosecuted. This is yet another way that rappers are having an extremely detrimental effect on black communities.

MidwestGuy
April 23 2007, 12:48PM

Edwin..rappers are absolutely insignificant to the "no snitching" nonsense out here. Let's be realistic. "Rapping" about something is far different than "living" it. There are many people in the "hood" who ARE hesitant (for obvious reasons) to "snitch." That may not be your reality..but a reality it is. Eliminating the world of rap music is NOT going to solve THAT problem.

I believe that your "assumptions" about rap music and the "hood" are detrimental to the black community. Imagine you walking past someone thinking that they're a murderer. If that's the way you choose to live then fine. You should probably be over in Iraq tho'. The attitude fits.

VERB
April 23 2007, 2:55PM

@ MidwestGuy...

I feel ya bro, but you gotta know you're wasting your time with some people here, especially with those incapable of critical and progressive thinking skills. It's so simple yet they make it so hard. To quote The Souls of Mischief, "The facts change when you lack brains."

BTW, thanks for clarifying My point to Tyrone. BE peace, T.

Midwest Gal
April 23 2007, 3:58PM

I'm sure the wife and 3 children of murdered 29 year old Israel Ramirez are proud of the fact that Busta Rhymes and the other 24 people who witnessed his slaying are not talking to police. No Snitching! Better to have someone you loved brutally murdered in front of witnesses and never have the case solved rather than being labled a "snitch".

All the rationalization in the world do not excuse this pathology of the Black Community.

Derrick from Philly
April 23 2007, 4:57PM

Just because we disagree on certain subjects, does that mean we have to question our opponents ability to think? Do we have to resort to ugly name calling? Damn, y'all some evil-ass arrogant homos.

Jeff
April 23 2007, 5:11PM

Tell it like it is Derrick, this has turned into the hood fight faster than a bad Fiddy video, drooy pants and those smears call tat's. Its as if the DL crowd is in da house, or trade!

VERB
April 23 2007, 6:18PM

It's not that W/we disagree on this subject that irks Me. I was not calling anyone in particular less than, only merely pointing out some people's analytical skills are off the mark because they fail to see the big picture. They only understand partial concepts and refuse to look beyond what is familiar to them. If the Souls of Mischief quote was too harsh for some, sorry to hurt anyone's feelings. Sometimes I just call a spade a spade.

Soft eyes, people.

edwin greene
April 23 2007, 8:11PM

We all remember the murders of Tupac and Notorious BIG. If police detectives cannot get witnesses to come forward with information on the murderers of two rap superstars (after more than TEN years), we lesser mortals are in sad shape.

A policeman, interviewed on the aforementioned "60 Minutes" segment, said that the percentage of suspects caught for certain crimes in black neighborhoods is in the single digits (that means less than 10%).

MidwestGuy, the thought occurred to me as I was watching the segment on tv that if murderers are not being caught and put behind bars, they must be walking around with the rest of us. Is that such an unreasonable thought?

Verb, if my comments were so "off the wall" why did you bother to respond with a putdown? Something I wrote got your attention, which is not a bad thing. Anyway, what is this big picture I'm missing? I'm waiting. Seriously.

Jeff
April 23 2007, 8:36PM

VERB, while I respect you and your well thought out posts about this topic,but, do you really think that any of these rap guys even care what a message board geared towards gay men think? Thats the one irony I find in those defending that genre.

Edwin, keep doing your thing man, you are wise and have some great thoughts on this divisve debate. Anytime people won't work with the police on a murder case is just plain, well, ludacris, and shwos a certain level of mental instablity, since, not all police are out there to annoy young black men.

VERB
April 23 2007, 9:10PM

I wasn't talking about your snitching post. I was speaking about a myriad of posts making hip hop out to be some evil force. From what I'm reviewing, that comment wasn't even in response to anything you posted. It was general so relax, pal.

But since you seem to like Me so much, I will say that this whole "no snitching" theme is rather stupid, although I do understand that so many folks are afraid to talk to the police for fear of retribution. What I will add is that maybe people will now stop telling their own kids, "Stop tellin' everything you know. Always talkin'... Can't hold water. Nobody likes a tattle-tale." It's BS like that which sets the tone for situations later in life.

Feel better now?

VERB
April 23 2007, 11:11PM

Jeff: VERB, while I respect you and your well thought out posts about this topic,but, do you really think that any of these rap guys even care what a message board geared towards gay men think? Thats the one irony I find in those defending that genre.

Me: The opinions posted here are not exclusive to the homosexual community on Keith Boykin's blog. The comments posted here represent those that don't post here as well. It doesn't matter if those in the hip hop community care or not. It's not about that. This is a blog that provides a forum where W/we all get to post O/our comments. So I'll answer your question with a question. Should I not defend something simply because those that I'm defending won't ever read it anyway?

I'm confused. I'm really surprised you would ask anything like that.

DDC
April 24 2007, 8:53AM

Jeff, I totally agree. These rappers and Rap music in general is very macho, patriarchal and thus homophobic. Heck, if it's not homophobic its not authentic Rap by most people's opinions. The sad part is that these rappers will stomp these li'l male groupies' posting on here to death, damn if they're fans quoting their lyrics and listening to their CDs or not. At the very least they'd want nothing to do with them (partly because it'll destroy their rep). I guess they've forgotten all about the Busta incident a while back. But these sad pathetic souls on here just swear they're down, LOL!

luddite
April 24 2007, 9:36AM

DDC you hit on a point all of us missed. Midwestguy and his crew are most certainly "down". Of course the fact that these rappers and their fans would kick the shit out of them for being gay/bi/DL never quite enters their stream of conciousness.

MidwestGuy
April 24 2007, 9:51AM

Unlike probably most of the posters here, most of my "friends" are heterosexual and from my experiences "we" are the last things on their minds. They are not sitting around waiting for the next opportunity to rid the world of gay. For whatever reason, "we" tend to get caught up in that.

I doubt very seriously that many who so vociferously protest hip-hop can quote a full bar of "homophobic" rap lyrics. Does it exist..sure it does. But it's definately not as mainstream as "we" make it out to be. Someone raps "these faggots on my dick." Why cry about that? I'm most certainly not. If we seriously think that there isn't an awareness of "who's in/who's not in the industry then we truly have our heads in the clouds. That's why IMO, it's not that big of an issue.

Sammy
April 24 2007, 11:25AM

Well, Midwestguy, I don't agree with you, but, I sure would hate to be a gay kid in the "hood" who may be a little fem, and get beat down because rappers say its OK to do so. You may be mature enough to understand its just words and that these rappers don't really hate gays, wink, wink, but, too many of the ones who listen to it aren't.

I guess its just a personal taste with that music and as with most things comes from ones life experience, thank you Jesus I didn't grow up in that culture and don't have to deal with those who did. Bougie, yes thank you.

Now I'll let ya'll get back to the bickering and cat fights.....

Tee
April 24 2007, 1:54PM

Hip Hop music is in a sad state of decline and has been for quite awhile. Russell Simmons and his peers did avoid the issue and try to divert attention away for individual responsibility. Yes the labels are at fault for promoting it, but the hip hop community is at fault for creating it.

When did cursing become the only way to communicate?

When did calling women b****es, H*s, and other blacks ni**as become the only way to get a message across?

When did foul language become the only language of the hood?

As a black woman I've been dissappointed in the lyrics and images that have been shoved down our throats 24/7.

I've been dissappointed in the lack of balance because only those who degrade are given a voice and those who uplift are not promoted.

Being a product of the hood isn't an excuse because some of these rapper don't even experience 1/2 the stuff they rap about.

I'm not for censorship, I'm for balance. The black community is diverse and should be represented as such.

MidwestGuy
April 24 2007, 3:17PM

>Sammy> oh ok..not really sure what it is that you don't agree with. Maybe you don't agree w/my opinion. That's interesting...

The idea that feminine gays are being routinely targeted in the "hood" really is a bunch of bs. Propaganda at its finest. Maybe if we began to realize that we are NOT women but MEN, then we can move beyond the crap that holds us back. Many of us are quite uncomfortable with being around "straights" but expect them to be comfortable around "us." Doesnt make sense. "I" can walk through any "hood" and not feel threatened because I'm gay.

Bourgie? You think so? That adjective seems less than appropriate and sounds more self-aggrandizing than anything. Using your reasoning, I guess heterosexuals who do their best not to have any associations w/us (gay) are "bourgie" as well. Something else that doesn't make sense.

Sammy
April 24 2007, 3:44PM

LOL, thanks for a good chuckle Midwestguy, not here to diss you or your point of view, just adding my two cents. We see the world in a totally different light, and that's what makes this such a great country, you can have it your way, and I can have it mine! If someone is fem, that's for them,not my cup of tea, but, better than a guy who thinks he is all man, and everyone arond him knows he isn't.

I live in a straight world, work in a straight world, and basically an all white one and have no problems with that, but, still have my pride of being black and display it all the time, and its a wish I have for all black people, especially the young men who seem to have none for themselves and especially for the beautiful black women who are our Grandmothers, Mothers, sisters and friends who are insulted with rap lyrics, when its been black women who have had the backs of black men in this country for 400 years, and are not the oppressors of black men and black people in general.

Peace to you, I'm out!

VERB
April 24 2007, 5:31PM

@ Tee
You said: I'm not for censorship, I'm for balance. The black community is diverse and should be represented as such.

That statement was gold. Although I don't agree with 100% of what you posted, I agree with the vast majority. BE peace.

Andy
April 25 2007, 8:40AM

Hey verb, you are quite correct, the black community is diverse, but, the only thing the public and world at large see is a negative perception, which is a shame, since there is more to the fabric of black people than being portrayed as thugs and promiscuous women. Too bad the young brothers in college and women working their way up the corporate ladder are seldom seen or heard about, instead, a thread about rap and the lyrics they use.

Kola Boof
April 25 2007, 11:46AM

not only that...but what about all the good decent people in the hood...the nurses, public servants, hard laborers and all around goodhearted, beautiful black POOR PEOPLE who are nothing like the images and "hyped sensationalism" that hip hop GREED attaches to them?? Those people are just as important and even more invisible than black college kids/women working up the corporate ladder. When I came to this country, I was raised in "Anacostia Park"---one of the most ghetto GHETTOS in America, and to me it was a paradise. My parents were wonderful, wonderful people and so were MOST of the people in S.E. It's the bad ones who got all the attention.

Newcorners
April 25 2007, 7:31PM

I know all about institutional slavery, the manipulation of the media, the white man’s burden, etc... but it’s up to us black folks to be responsible for ourselves. We can’t expect others to respect us when we don’t respect ourselves. Hip Hop is a culture that has lost its way; very few rappers of today are socially conscious or about the community. Most of it is misogynist, homophobic, materialistic, and supportive of the criminal element, hence the “stop snitching” campaign. I think it’s just a blatant example of self-hate; if you respect yourself and your mother, you wouldn’t call women bitches and hoes. Sadly, the quiet truth is that most of them (rappers) are talking about their own mamas.

The only place where there is more self-hate than the Hip Hop culture is the black gay culture; many of us make disparaging remarks about other gays being effeminate, ugly, messy bottoms, size queens, HIV positive, whores, low-rent, broke, crafty etc… and sadly, most of us are talking about ourselves.

alicia banks
April 28 2007, 12:25PM

kudos to oprah!!!

for outing the hypocrisy of misogyny in syncopation

if imus had played a cd of himself saying the EXACT same slurs over a cool sample beat...i guess he would still be on the air!!!

i have hated snoop dogg with a passion since he celebrated gang rape on his debut cd with "it ain't no fun if my homies can't have none"...his loathsome lewd lunacy is more evident each day...

go O!

peace
ab
see more on snoop etc at
eloquent fury
www.geocities.com/ambwww

Lmary
May 2 2007, 1:26PM

Here we go again!! A bunch of whiny self-roghteous holier thans looking for scapegoats rather than REAL solutions so tell me is Rap music ALSO responsible for countless Hollywood movies from 70 years ago until today that ALWAYS show black women as prostitutes and crack moms on welfare?!! It is according to you all I don't hear anybody complaining about that or the 'mammy' streotype that STILL exists on tv or shows like "Law&Order" or "The Practice" or "NYPD Blue" that NEVER met an offensive streotype about black people especially women it didn't like rap is at fault for that too. How about reality tv which has some of the WORST examples of black females I've ever seen if she's thin and pretty the she's a bitchy asshole like on "Real World" or [sic]"Next Top Model" and if she's fat and ugly then she's a loud and bossy asshole like on "Survivor" or "Last Comic". It feels like producers of these shows go out of their way to find the world's most obnoxious black women where is all the criticism over that?!!

ro433ck
July 2 2007, 6:08PM

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