From Girls To Men
By Keith Boykin, in sexuality
Thursday, April 12 2007, 10:25AM
A few years ago, a well known preacher in Washington complained that lesbians were taking over the black community. In a July 2005 sermon, Rev. Willie Wilson said that "women are becoming lesbians" because a "lot of the sisters making more money than brothers." And he began the sermon by complaining that his son couldn't find a date to the high school prom because all the girls at his school are either ugly or gay.
Let's hope that Wilson doesn't get his hands on the latest issue of The Village Voice. The Voice profiles thuggish-looking lesbian women who dress like men, in part, to get more women.
It's a phenomenon that many New Yorkers have surely observed in recent years. The baggy jeans, the XXXL t-shirts, the baseball caps tilted to the side, and all the other accoutrement of the contemporary urban hip hop look are on display on the 2 or 3 train between the Bronx, Harlem and Brooklyn almost every afternoon. Sometimes the young women are dressed so convincingly that you can't easily identify their gender, but other times the act of macho posturing is so dramatized that it becomes almost a caricature, a satirical commentary on the very notion of constructing masculinity through our clothing.
Lesbian Stereotypes
The Voice story begins with a scene in a nightclub where a female bartender hunts down her mate and forces her to sit next to her all night so she won't stray. "It's a property thing," says one young woman who, according to the reporter, "looks like she's walked out of a rap video." As the reporter notices the 15 tattoos on the 20-year-old's frame, she explains more. "You can be holding your femme girlfriend's hand in the club, and she could be looking around, searching for a flyer AG. She's going to want to stray, slip her a number. All lesbians are sneaky," she says.
All lesbians are sneaky? Man, if Willie Wilson had said that, the activists would be leading the charge against him. But somehow it's acceptable when LGBT people refer to themselves in disparaging stereotypes.
At this particular party, the black and Hispanic crowd is divided fairly evenly between femmes and "AGs" ("aggressives"), who also refer to themselves as "studs." When two AGs get into a shoving match over a femme, one shouts, "Suck my dick, nigga! I'll fuck your whole shit up!" A fight almost breaks out until friends break it up. The cause of the disturbance? "One of the women tried to talk to the other's girlfriend while her back was turned," writes the reporter, who describes it as "a common occurrence."
I hope this is not representative, but In my 16 years going out to the gay clubs, I've seen far more bar fights among lesbians than I have among gay men. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say that, but it's what I've seen. Is it the quadruple oppression of being young, black, gay and female that fuels this aggression? Or is it a replication of the larger societal influences that afflict their brothers?
Behaving Like Men
One woman in the story has an older brother who was a drug dealer before he was busted and sent to prison. Another woman's father is serving 125 years for the GHB raping of eight women.
"These AGs have a disrespectful mentality, and they get it from men, hoodlums, dudes that are in the 'hood all day," says one AG (a college student). "They act like a bunch of little damn boys that ain't got no sense." I'm glad she said it. The reduction of black manhood to stylized images of ignorance, violence, misogyny and homophobia have not only hurt black men, they've harmed black women and changed the way a whole generation of the black community sees itself. After all, it's not just the lesbian femmes who are attracted to the thug types. A lot of straight women find the thug image appeals to them as well.
We're one of the only communities that has allowed its authenticity to be defined by the lowest common denominators. Bolstered by a multi-billion dollar media and fashion industry that defines our blackness by our thuggishness, we've trapped ourselves in a desperate self-parody. Maybe the young black and Latino lesbians on the streets know this. Maybe their sartorial selections and behavior are designed to place a mirror to our community so that all of us can finally see ourselves and find our way out.
Growing Up Gay
The same young woman who says that lesbians are sneaky has her own history to deal with. Her black father was a military man and her Hispanic mother was addicted to drugs. Her father left when she was young but came back years later and sent her to live with his mother in the projects in Brooklyn. Two years after that she came out of the closet.
"My aunt was doing my hair and she was trying to put it in a girly hairstyle," she says. "I got upset and flipped. 'I hate this. I want to wear my hair braided. I like girls!' " Her grandmother took it well. "I think in a way my being gay meant she didn't have to worry about me going out and getting pregnant and bringing home more kids for her to take care of."
Maybe there is hope. One woman says she was so concerned about her community that she created the House of Corleone to respond to the self-destruction she saw. "There are a lot of AGs that are going down the wrong path," says Corleone founder Don Vito, who works in the IT department of a Wall Street law firm during the day. "A lot of them are selling drugs. I used to sell drugs and almost went to jail for a long time. A lot of these AGs do it because the girls think it's cute."
For all the complaints from outsiders about lesbians dressing up and behaving as men, many of them are effectively challenging our notions of masculinity and femininity. And many of them are very visible in public spaces, in ways that "straight-acting" gays are unable or unwilling to be. I've seen black lesbian couples embrace and kiss on the subway in Harlem quite a few times before. I've never seen two black gay men do that.
Comments conceal
Peter
April 12 2007, 11:21AM
You do not see the men kiss because that would threaten the straight men present - perhaps causing verbal or possibly physical reactions - whereas the women kissing would not - straight men are rarely threatened by women. (Despite the antics portrayed between Jackie and Andre on this week's episode of Workout on BravoTV.)
Much of how the fearful react in their homophobia is connected to gender issues and rarely do we address that bias in order to understand and better handle/address the other.
Troy
April 12 2007, 11:41AM
One day, I was getting my train ticket through one of Bill Gates' many machines when this 'dude' was so close and hovering over me in line: dreds, baseball cap, the correct jeans and so on. Here comes the cell phone, ringing and SHE answers it and I walk back to wait for my train totally taken back for thinking it was a male and it was a female all along!
Sisters always had it going on. I see them and see what humanity used to be, oh well; a whole other world.
Derrick from Philly
April 12 2007, 12:14PM
I have to admit these Lesbian AGs turn me on more than them damn phoney-ass homothugs. They'd be "top only" too...if they could.
Blue
April 12 2007, 1:00PM
At the risk of sounding like a bitch, I have to say what I can't stand is that some of them think you should be scared of them because they have a fade and boots on. I'm like I don't give a fuck if you think you have a dick or not, you still ain't a man. Most lesbians I have dealt with are cool, but I don't like ones who are too extreme. (ANY extreme is too much for me.) A close friend of mine is a lesbian and she says that gay men have built-in biases toward all lesbians and find them to be obnoxious and overbearing. So I ask you guys ... do you think this is the case?
Christopher
April 12 2007, 1:00PM
Me and a friend of mine were discussing this issue to a certain degree. It goes deeper than the AGS and more towards society and what it takes to make it in our culture. It makes you turn to think if we may have to even change our culture or yet even start a culture. Your lifestyle is the factor of how you live your life. If our lifestyle has few positive influences there is more for negative to feed off of. No its not just the lesbians and not just the gay men but its the community, the nation,and the world. If the black community is having issues within itself when a development of the black community, a gay black man/woman, comes into their own lifestyle there will be issues. We have to start somewhere and i first plan to start with myself. Thats why the only way i can begin to show a chance for change is to become a leading example, educator, and a positive figure in the community. It even makes me come to the point that i will put my life on the line in order to make a change.
Christopher
April 12 2007, 1:34PM
And to stick more on to the topic ... a style that is presented in the black community and people often don't see another side of life other than the baggy clothes and the thuggish feel make no room for change. We may not fight or be as aggresive as the AGS but we have our situations as well. We have to stop dividing our own community up and stick together. Yes we know they are aggresive but what influence do we have for them up close and personal? We all even break down into this when it comes to our dating styles. Fems like AGS, Fem Men like Masculine men so some just adjust to that instead of being an indivdual. We Have to look further than a look and reach towards our future. Health, Education,Financial education...
C. Baptiste-Williams
April 12 2007, 2:00PM
Great article... funny I have been out for so long and still don't have any real lesbian friends. This is like looking into an entire different world.
Lois
April 12 2007, 2:09PM
I must be getting old, this sort of thing makes no sense to me at all, and these young women had best be careful with this charade.
Nathan James
April 12 2007, 2:31PM
As for the clothing issue, young people of color often find themselves buying those XXL T-shirts, baggy jeans, etc., because that's all that is available where they shop. I was on Jamaica Ave. by 165 St. in Queens yesterday, and in that business district, all they are selling is "urban fashion". There's no Macy's, Penney's, or even Today's Man in Jamaica! Now, it is possible to take the E or F train a few stops to Forest Hills or Rego Park and find less "stereotypical" clothing, but I'm willing to bet my last MetroCard that won't happen.
I live in Rockaway, and I see those thug women here, too. I wonder, when these young "AG"s get older, what their perspective will be then...
Luddite
April 12 2007, 2:32PM
Oh Please Derrick! You know "top only" means they are only tops online.
As for the article, I guess the Butch/Fem dichotomy of the 1950's is back again only with a different style.
nunya
April 12 2007, 3:43PM
I have noticed a lot of lesbians--not just black ones or ones who, in a sense, try to pass as males--speak and/or act disrespectful towards other women, as well. Actually, originally when I started noticing the same treatment and comments about women as men seem to make, it was mainly white women.
Mikey--He Likes It
April 12 2007, 4:14PM
I especially see these women out during gay pride in the city and they totally outnumber the men. I have to concur with Keith that they are more visible and that may be because they're more socially accepted and I would go so far as to say they're mainstream now. I've seen them on the subways and it's like people are oblivious to them. I have to admit that I'm somewhat jealous of the kind of freedom they have in public to be themselves. In fact I think because of their visibility they might be the ones to challenge perceptions on homosexuality. But as fearless as some of these young women are there seems to be a rift in our two communities. It's almost like they see themselves as separate from the gay male community and the ONLY time we come together is for gay pride. I would like to see this change in the future as we can really be a more powerful force if united we stand.
ReganDuCasse
April 12 2007, 7:26PM
I recently saw a stage show featuring a quartet of butch Latina lesbians. It was called "Butchlalis de panotitchlan."
It was mixed media about the experience of Latina lesbians from the 1940's to now.
The most poignant, was the short film, video and still...called "Beautiful Pain" a chronicle of a lesbian couple and the birth of their son.
The subject of clothes...comfort, style...protection. It's always been different for women, who have tested many things when it comes to holding their own with clothes.
Men's...have always been more comfortable.
But at the same time, this IS a world brutal to women.
No matter what a woman does, her image is distorted by the marketplace.
I don't have a problem with this framework of self determination and expression.
It's individual...it's self. It's beautiful.
Charles
April 12 2007, 8:22PM
From this article and the one in the Village Voice it is absolutely clear to me finally once and for all that the "hip hop culture" has no influence on the greater black culture whether it be gay or straight...furthermore let me add that hip hop does not add to drugs or violence in the black community....these lyrics have far less of an impact than what has been said my Don Imus and should be our new black national anthem...these lyrics and images finally give us a positive and clear image of ourselves as men and women both young and old...rise up you bitches, nappy headed hos, pimps, skeets and sing the praises of our rebirth where we reclaim and own our image from the white man and become what we are really meant to be.
BTW:I am so glad that is cleared up and we can move on to the next "real" issue that is plaguing the black community.
Robert Jones, Jr.
April 12 2007, 11:06PM
If what Keith says is true, that "the act of macho posturing is so dramatized that it becomes almost a caricature, a satirical commentary on the very notion of constructing masculinity through our clothing," then can't the same be said for effeminate men and drag culture, balls, voguing, etc?
J
April 13 2007, 1:03AM
I don't think they or those who support them realize what they're doing. Comparing them to fem men is ridiculous. They're totally different cultures, mentalities, and effects. Hopefully these women as well as their supporters, who do NOT represent ALL black lesbians, will wake up.
Kenneth Winfrey
April 13 2007, 1:12AM
Yes Robert Jones Jr! I have always believed that much of what we see as transgenderism is the association of power with the opposite sex--not to admire or be near it, but to BECEOME it.
These women obviously have no sense of power in being feminine, just as many hyper-feminine men feel a lack of expression in the stoicism of masculinity. I feel that gender is a biological state of being that has an impact on our psychology, not the other way around, and so I've not felt the need to emulate members of the opposite sex to this degree...although I have had my moments of deep thought, which I'll share with y'all later...
mcQUAIDLA![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.keithboykin.com/blog2/nav-commenters.gif)
April 13 2007, 1:21AM
Fascinating...but it's all sounding very "House of Extravaganza" to me. "There was a category" the old man says, stroking his goat..."Thug butch, or something like that, if memory serves..." and the crowd would go nuts when these girls would get up do "hard." They were so good.
P.S.: Kieth, when you gonna lay that Willi Smith poem on me?
mitchell
April 13 2007, 9:33AM
Live and let live. If these young ladies are not hurting anyone than WHO are WE to judge? I really am not a fan of drag queens or fem men, but it's their choice. At the end of the day, everyone is on their own journey. I just hope they find happiness.
Kola Boof
April 13 2007, 10:33AM
I once fell into "infatuation" with a Filipino/Greek man named Waldo who it turned out---he was a transsexual who had been born a woman and surgically turned into a man. GOD HE WAS FOINE--I mean HANDSOME!!! But his penis was made from his breast tissue (sculpted and not very natural looking), and in order to have sex, he had to blow it up with a pump.
We never had sex, though, he told me all this.
He felt depressed all the time about his sexual organs. But I sure liked him a lot, and when we initially met and I didn't know about his "change", I wanted to be with him. We were good friends until he moved to Europe and then I never heard from him again. I really wish more real men could THINK LIKE Waldo, because then we'd have a world full of good men.
Robert
April 13 2007, 12:14PM
This reminds me of something I read years ago about gay men in Australia, and why (at that time) a very specific type of drag was so very popular among them. Working-class Australian culture was very gender-specific - masculine (tough, boozy 'ockers) and feminine (shrill, brassy, coarse). If you couldn't fit into one, the other was your only option.
The idea that these young women have resurrected the 'butch/fem' dynamic so familiar to readers of post-WWII lesbian paperbacks is rather alarming. The image of ags poaching each other's fems, and gettng into fistfights over it - truly sad.
edwin greene
April 13 2007, 12:15PM
I don't believe the thuggish looking lesbians are "free". They are trapped in a role of their own choosing just as surely as the thuggish black men they are imitating. Since these women are supposed to be thugs, they MUST fight, sell drugs and, if necessary, kill or be killed (all things male thugs do) or else be considered a "punk" just like a man would be if he didn't live up to the image. But let them find that out for themselves.
Regarding gay men showing physical affection (kissing, handing hands) for each other in public like some of the lesbians do, it's up to gay men to make this happen and the consequences be DAMNED. Straights (especially men) are not going to give gay men "permission" to show affection in public.
jcampbell41
April 13 2007, 3:40PM
RE: Blue: are lesbians all overbearing and extreme? Well, Blue, in my limited experience, the dykes I've met are humorless, too serious, and seem to dislike or mistrust all men, gay or otherwise. If one tries to exert her personality with me, she's in for a slap down. Period. But I do often suspect dykes are a bit sour because of the sheer fact of being women -- still relatively marginalized in the gay as well as hetero world.
rick
April 15 2007, 11:46AM
I am a Gay black male. And in Seattle we go to clubs that play Hip-hop on certain nights and so most black people go to that club what night, no matter if its gay or lesbian, that playing Hip-hop. But I notice that that when its at the Lesbian club it seem like there more attitude and even a few more fights then I seen when its at one of the gay clubs. And Its not like there not the same THUGGISH thing going on at the gay club with guy. It just seems less serious and less an attitude about it.
alicia banks
April 15 2007, 3:45PM
as a femme lesbian who loves femmes, i am appalled at the nullification of femininity that these young thuggish lesbians personfify
to each her own, but these thugs have truly taken over all lesbian space
i love being a woman, but i find so few women among young lesbians now
it makes me feel like a relic as i have no sexual attraction to masculinity....and i avoid clubs etc to avoid these lebsian thugs
this is yet another hip hop murder...
hip hop started out as positive afrocentric rebellion
now it is all about pimping and thugging
even among lesbians
this is tragic!!!
peace
ab
Janis
April 15 2007, 7:06PM
What I find hard to phathom is why would a young woman want another woman who attempts to emulate, a " hardcore' man? This puzzles me and other women. Is it just the lack of a penis?
Malcolm Gossett
April 16 2007, 12:20AM
I'm confused about the terminology in use here, you say that some women "dress like men" so well that their actual "gender is not easily identifiable." How do you know that these women do not identify as men and therefore are not women? Is transgender simply a disguise? I think not.
Topher
April 16 2007, 3:27AM
The Butch/Femme debate is alive and kicking in the UK. The London Lesbian and Gay Film Festival recently staged an event called Femme celebrating the emergence of Femme identity while also screening a retrospective of Inge Blackman's work. Inge is known to be butch,-a boy-and can often "pass" as such. There was an outcry when s/he appeared on a panel at the Femme event. People questioned the prescence of a boy on a girl panel. It was as if things should be divided between Butch and Femme as they are between biological men and women
Part of the debate has to also be about the visibility of women in our communities. Why is it that Lesbians only become visible and a topic of converstion when they step into black "male" territory. Are we not just witnessing the same hyper sexualized posturing that historically has been the drag of gay men, white and black for decades? The challenge as always to our communities is to accept diversity within while guarding against bigotry from anywhere.
Ruby
April 17 2007, 3:28PM
FYI-
It is my understanding that a lot of people in the community (men and women) are not happy with this story, and it has even been put out there that a lot of people's words that were used in the interview for the story were taken out of context or distorted. Please see the website:
girlzparty.com
The first page has a letter to the editor regarding this story, and also information on a community forum in NYC and press conference to be held to set the record straight.
Although there are people in our community who do things and particiapte in negative behaviors, this doesnt mean that all "agressives", are thugged out, womanizing, drug dealing, etc. Same thing with how they portrayed this whole DL thing, with black men as sexual predators, spreading HIV to straight women, etc.
Bettina
April 18 2007, 11:12AM
Uhm. Can we think about what one means by "behaving like men." What men are these women behaving like? Exactly how can their experience and performance be flattened like that. This analysis is unfortunately lacking in complexity. I'm dissapointed.
TJ Fleming
April 18 2007, 11:20AM
I guess if I were from NY some would consider me an AG but that is not how I would describe myself - for any who are interested in Butch, Male Soul identified and FTM persons views on this subject please check out the following link for a different perspective including rebuttles from both a party promoter and female rapper spotlighted in this article.
Renair
April 18 2007, 5:02PM
My concern as an AG lesbian is the picture it paints to the "out"coming youth and the other eyes of the world. Not all of us thug out; not all of us treat women disrespectfully; not all of us have criminial records, believe we are "men" nor any of the other negative stereotypes that are here inside this particular article. Wherein does one find the positive side of being an AG? I remember when my gay male friends were having a fit because all the young gay males that were coming out were of the "flaming queen" persona. "We all are not like that," they would cry. I think that it is more of the idea that we will be all judged by a blatant attempt at displaying us in an incorrect fashion. Even IF this woman had not (according to the rebuttals) misquoted the interviewees, why must the media always look to display us (all of us!) in a way to further the prejudicial stereotypes that we all are these promiscuous deviants with misguided mindsets as to our true identities.
Soft-n-Cunt
April 19 2007, 1:03PM
WORD UP to the above poster. I must say that the postings on this page, while not altogether offensive, completely mirror the issue: That only lesbians seem to know what's up with lesbians, and thus those who tackle the community - whether through casual comment or news articles - have no frame of reference. They basically get shits of the mouth and start saying ridiculous things.
Myself and other lesbians I know hit the ROOF about this article. It was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO off. The reporter zoomed in on a very, VERY small group: 18-22 year old thug dykes in NYC. Then it was made out like this was some major contingent. Unreal.
If you want to get the scoop, go to girlzparty.com The promoter mentioned in the article, Madison, was so pissed, she wrote a letter to the editor AND hosted a news conference.
Miss Statement
April 19 2007, 3:39PM
As a bi-sexual, femme, who is deeply in love with a very "masculine" woman, I took offense to this article. This article certainly is not the total representation of black lesbian love at it purest, sweetest and deepest.......
Strictly Dickly
April 20 2007, 9:26AM
As a straight woman this is all sick and nasty to me.
TEE
April 21 2007, 11:18AM
Sup fam, and others
I am an AG or stud whateva you perfer to identify me as. I attned Auburn University (grad May) which is located in a small town in alabama for those of you who never heard of Auburn. Born and raised on the south side of St.petersburg, FL which is one of the roughest neighborhoods in the tampa bay area. I was always a tom boy never liked girly things, my mom would try to dress me up in dresses I hated it with a passion, I was attracted to girls all my life. I hung with the boys played basketball with the guys, which helped me earn a full sholarship for basketball. My first year in college I became more open with dressing more masculine, and it comes with some things you have to deal with in life. I dress up thuggish my pants sag, I have done somethings to survive, but I am not a bad person. I treat my girlfriend for two years with respect, and help raise her four kids. Yet if you see me you wouldnt think of me as a graduate student, and loving hersband, and friend sup with that fam.....
Soft-n-Cunt
April 24 2007, 10:38AM
I think I'm not alone in saying, Strictly Dickly, that if you are intolerant, you need to take it elsewhere.
If you were joking, put that in the same bin as Don Imus' jokes. I'm not amused.
TEE
April 25 2007, 3:16PM
I agree with Soft-n-Cunt
Neledi Tafari
April 25 2007, 7:14PM
Like it or not, we (lesbians), as well as queens are judged by our appearances. In fact, fashion seems to be the biggest indicator of role (i.e. AG or Dom as we say in DC). I find that many closeted lesbians are intimidated by those of us who don't hide under skirts. Where there is poverty, and lack of access to resources, there will be crime (like selling drugs). All in all, one person's appearance or behavior does not speak for the entire group.
Ms. loi wade
April 29 2007, 5:35PM
I haven't posted in a while, but I just HAD to comment on this. I am a forty year old black lesbian and I am here to tell you, There is nothing 'new' about the 'stud'! They have been around since the turn of the century(1900's). The majority of them are not trying to be men. Child, a man could NEVER be that damn HOT! My straight friends would always say "you are sooo pretty. why do you date those butch women?" I got so sick of that question that I wrote a poem. I don't remember it all because it was fifteen years ago, but it ended like this:'like a man i can, protect you, like a man I can provide for you, but a man i am not because only like a woman can I love you'. Enough said.
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