Why Are Whites So Homophobic?
By Keith Boykin, in sexuality
Tuesday, March 13 2007, 10:00AM
Why are white people so homophobic? That's the question I want someone to answer today after the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Monday that he considers homosexuality to be immoral. Marine Gen. Peter Pace compared homosexuality to adultery, which he said was also immoral, and said the U.S. armed forces should not allow gays to serve openly in the military, according to the Chicago Tribune. "I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way," Pace said.
Every time a Tim Hardaway or an Isaiah Washington or an unknown black preacher makes an anti-gay comment, reporters call me up and ask why are black people so homophobic. But when high-profile white people make homophobic remarks, nobody ever asks why are white people so homophobic. They should, because the answers to the two questions are related. African Americans are homophobic because white Americans are homophobic. We all live in the same homophobic society, and in this case the prejudice starts from the president on down.
Starts From The Top
When you have a president of the United States who supports anti-gay constitutional amendments and a vice president who acts like he's ashamed to admit he has a lesbian daughter, it's no surprise to find ordinary people on the street openly parroting their homophobia. Nor is it a surprise to find the nation's top general openly acknowledging he thinks homosexuality is "immoral."
The general told the Chicago Tribune this week that he supports the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell policy" that bars gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military. The policy, approved by President Clinton in 1993, prohibits commanders from asking about a soldier's sexual orientation. "I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.
Same Excuse They Used Against Blacks
General Pace is entitled to his opinion, of course. This is America and our country is still free. But his opinion is wrong, and his views should have no place in the leadership of our modern military. In fact, his argument takes us back to the 1940s when white generals like himself tried to stop black soldiers from integrating into the military.
The two main arguments raised against gays in the military are identical to the two main arguments that were used against blacks serving in the military 60 years ago.
It's not about competence; it's about prejudice. No one ever questions the competence of the gay and lesbian soldiers in the military. Nor did they question the competence of the black soldiers who wanted to serve in an integrated military in the 1940s. Instead, the opponents of change each time raised an interesting argument about disrupting "unit cohesion." In each case, they said that the military should not be used as a place for social experiment and they argued that the rank-and-file soldiers would not go along with the change.
Of course they could not argue about the competence of the soldiers because their own argument would be undermined. In the case of gay soldiers, a 2005 government audit revealed that 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the military policy. At a time when our country is fighting two wars in the Arab world with limited intelligence, our military is firing the very people who can actually speak the language in the region. And at a time when the president is trying to find 21,500 new troops to send to Iraq, he's firing thousands of troops because of his own social policy.
When the conservatives can't win with the competence argument they always fall back on the "morality" issue that General Pace raised. In 1948, the opponents of integration made similar arguments. "Purity of race is a gift of God," said one Alabama congressman. "The incidence of syphilis, gonorrhea, chancre and all other venereal diseases is appallingly higher among the members of the Negro race than among members of the white race," said Senator Richard Russell. Today it sounds odd to hear avowed segregationists preach about morality, but it was quite common a generation ago. Morality is not an argument that should be used by people who support bigotry.
Over the years, we've justified the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, rationalized the carpet-bombing of entire villages in Vietnam, and dismissed the deaths of innocent civilians in Iraq as unintended consequences of war, and yet we cannot tolerate gays and lesbians serving in the military because of "immorality." That's a convenient but irrational argument used by the powerful to justify the use of their power. And it's the powerful that should worry us the most.
The People v. The Powerful
It's easy to criticize high-profile celebrities and athletes for their homophobia and then ignore the high-powered government officials who engage in a more dangerous form of anti-gay prejudice. Tim Hardaway and Isaiah Washington have the power of celebrity and words. But George Bush, Dick Cheney and Peter Pace have the power of public policy behind them as well. The politicians and generals may be more polite when they express their bigotry, but their nice-sounding words have more of a direct impact on the lives of real people. Thousands of people have lost their jobs because of cowardly politicians and generals who are too damn afraid to do the right thing.
This is where the issue of race comes into play again. If you look at the various demographic groups in Congress, you'll find that the Congressional Black Caucus, for all its weaknesses, is one of the most supportive groups in Congress for the civil rights of gays and lesbians. They support the Employment Non Discrimination Act and the Hate Crimes Protection Act and they oppose the anti-gay Marriage Protection Amendment. That doesn't mean they all get it, but they tend to get it more often than their white colleagues do. On virtually every piece of gay legislation that comes up to the Hill, the CBC votes the right way.
Yes there are some well-known black homophobes out there who get a lot of attention and a lot of criticism, as they should. But let's not use those examples to prove that all blacks are much more homophobic than whites. The irony is that the famous black homophobes are taking their marching orders from the homophobic white society that taught them. So let's stop asking why black people are so homophobic. Black Americans didn't invent homophobia; they copied it from the white society in which they live. And if we focus only on the black homophobes, we lose sight of the more influential white bigots in power who quietly perpetuate the status quo every day with their words and their policies.
As for General Pace, maybe he should spend more time trying to manage the war that he's losing and less time trying to dictate social policy.
Comments conceal
candler80
March 13 2007, 10:08AM
Believing that homosexuality is immoral is not homophobic. It's believing that homosexuality is immoral. Irrational fear of homosexuality is homophobic. Big difference Keith.
Derrick from Philly
March 13 2007, 11:06AM
Well, it doesn't come as a surprise that people who have been racists, set policies of racial discrimination, committed violence to maintain white supremacy for hundreds of years would also be ready to do the same things against gay people. It is surprising that the people who endured these atrocities would then be so ready to do the same thing against "faggots" especially their own black "faggots". Black hatred affects me more. Black folks use a more colorful form of slang language when insulting gay people, and they also seem to have a more superficial definition of masculinity which singles out black gay men (of course, as a self-proclaimed "queen" I couldn't give a f__k about the latter). And are lower income males more likely to commit violence against "obviously gay-looking" gay people? If so, there is a higher percentage of low income black males, right?
So, no, white folks aint nice to gay folks either, but they aint got as much mouf' about it.
Bernie
March 13 2007, 11:06AM
Here's the irony of this general's ignorance: Twenty of the 25 NATO nations--our allies--allow gays in the armed forces, including Canada. In 2004, nine countries that deployed troops in Iraq allow gay service members. Those countries together contributed 60 percent of the coalition forces on the ground. Gay troops are already serving with U.S. forces, just not within U.S. forces.
So, it's ok to ask our more open-minded allies to serve with us in this "war on terrorism", but we can't even allow our own citizens to serve openly?
Mel Smith
March 13 2007, 11:10AM
It's homophobic because he is dehumanizing gay people sexuality. Thanks Keith.
Luddite
March 13 2007, 11:12AM
Thank you Derrick for stating it so well. This post of Keith's is quite lame and you demolish it in your first sentence. Does the homophobia of an army general affect the average Black Gay/Lesbian more than say the homophobia of the Black church?
We wouldn't even have this post if Keith's former boss President Clinton has simply struck down the ban on gay service members instead of this lame ass "don't ask, don't tell" policy which has NOT stopped involuntary discharges for Gay/Lesbian active duty military members.
Trent
March 13 2007, 11:24AM
As a white person, I am often perplexed at why many of us espouse such views, whether they are based on race, religion, sexuality or some other form of discrimination. I cannot speak for everyone, but in my own experience, I have seen so much bigotry from people who are afraid of people who are different. I think many of these problems stem from the fact that our culture has been dominated by white (supposedly) straight men who have wielded their social power for their own financial gain and to avoid confronting their own fears about "the other". It also strikes me as strange that many people who use morality arguments do so only when it fits their own purposes, but conveniently look the other way when it does not. For example, they rail against gays in the military, yet actively promote what many consider to be immoral activities (e.g., prostitution) in various ports-of-call around the world for members of our military. I think it's time we demand an end to the hypocrisy.
cmoney
March 13 2007, 12:33PM
Who among us hasn't had a man in uniform? I know I have. The general's remarks reflect extreme prejudice and hypocrisy. The military, like all other segments of society, is full of homosexuals. At a time when the military can barely meet its recruitment and staffing goals, it is discharging gays and lesbians and rejecting volunteers who want to serve their country, but are not allowed because they are gay. This homophobia is not only an insult to the patriotism and dignity of thousands of young men and women, it is a threat to national security because the best and brightest are being forced out of the military. I wonder how many of those wounded soldiers would refuse treatment from a nurse or doctor just because he or she is gay? Chances are, most of them have received treatment from a gay fellow soldier and lived to see another day as a result.
Troy
March 13 2007, 12:55PM
I remember my cringing feeling of self doubt came into play the rare times I'd get into it with my father and he'd use a phrase that would essentially be 'oh there you go trying to be a faggot again' and it would cut into me like a knife and me wanting to say something significant back but still be respectful because he was my father. I question the Hate and wonder does it really have a color. Nothing lame about this article at all. But when it hits home, it gets you. I was in the Army for 3 years where DL and playing soldier was a full time charade. Thanks for making me think on this among other things...
Yusef
March 13 2007, 1:05PM
I am so sick of these blogs and websites that constantly report on who said what about "gays"-from Tim Hardaway to "the captain"...honestly who gives a fat babys azz who doesnt like gays black or white...really does the fact that a general or a preacher or a basketball player gives their opinion about gay men and women really really make a difference in your everyday life...hell to the no...it is simply somebody running their lips to either overcompensate for whats really going on "how u dooing" or trying to get media attention. Honestly as long as you dont fuck with my household aka bedroom,paycheck, or i dont give a shyt what you think...and you damn sure not going to take it to the body...i'm gay not soft..big difference. So peeps can we not give so much attention to the idiots all over the world every five minutes. My father bless his heart said to me one time...."why do gay folk march so much for every lil thing...damn u black and gay just be proud"..end of story.
JCW
March 13 2007, 1:17PM
If the general does not believe immoral people should be involved in American policy, and he considers adultery immoral, then why have a number of presidents, congressmen, governors, mayors, aldermen, OTHER generals and soldiers, and state department heads been allowed to serve our country, all the while committing adultery (among other biblical sins) and/or ADMITTING THEY HAVE COMMITTED ADULTERY. The hypocrisy of this man is staggering. If immorality (who decides who is immoral, anyway?) should not be part of our nation's fabric, then we would have about 4 people in Congress, 2 presidents, and a partridge in a pear tree. According to the Bible, every last one of are immoral in some fashion. Real talk!
Rams
March 13 2007, 1:31PM
Great point Bernie. America's is stuck in its own quagmire of racial and sexual politics while other countries have intergrated, adapted, and moved on. Not that its all perfect everywhere else, but at least they areopen to the fact that they are not the only people on the planet, there are more ways to live one's life, and immorality is subjective.
Adam
March 13 2007, 1:46PM
I'm a white gay man who regularly visits this site (and loves it) and while this may be a valid topic for discussion, I believe what Kenneth Winfrey wrote about yesterday (The Secret, Law of Attraction) may be of more relevance. We really have to look toward the positive and our commonalities rather than our differences in order to make real changes in the world. Black white straight gay we are all human first and I feel that discussions about whether black or white people are more homophobic are backward thinking. It doesn't really serve the greater good. I agree with Rams; other countries have moved light years ahead of the U.S. in terms of integration and forward action. But why are most of the forward-thinking countries in colder climates (Netherlands, Canada, etc)? That would be an interesting topic. Peace.
Mel Smith
March 13 2007, 1:47PM
Yusef, quite often, our heterosexual family members don't understand our struggle because they represent the dominate group(heterosexual people). We are mentally and socially oppressed and we just can't ignore those obstacles. In reality, words cause damage, especially words from high ranking individuals in society. Please don't forget how a black elderly gay man, was attacked with a pipe, a few weeks ago. Lastly, I also remember arguing with my dad and he would tell me to talk 'like a man' or something to that effect. Now, I correct him.
GQ
March 13 2007, 2:05PM
Honestly, Keith, Pace's comments are a smoke screen to cover up the administration's and his "imcompetence" of trying to win a "losing battle" (war in Iraq). If Bush won't admit he's made a mistake do you think Pace will follow. It's sort of like a certain phrase that rings in our heads (If you admit mistakes, you are weak and less than a man) or something like that. Now I thought John Wayne has said that in his movies, but I could be wrong. Can someone enlighten me on which famous person said that comment? But my point is, when one makes mistakes, blame it on someone or group that will not speak up or fight back. And you can guess who that is. Gays and lesbian folk. We are still easy and convienient targets whether you agree or not. And that's why Yusef, certain gay and lesbian folk speak up when people broadcast their homophobic comments publicly in hopes to discourage those folks from resorting to that type of convienience.
Troy
March 13 2007, 2:06PM
It's funny looking back on all that waste of time-isms on things and people that were just that and all the arguing and following of these so-called men. None of it amounted to a hill of beans and yet every day we have to know the number and names of people lost in a war we know nothing about not to mention the ones physically and mentally not the same because of it. Something greater brought me through all that and that power within me I pray and appreciate EVERY DAY.
Zero tolerance for the B.S. as thick as it gets, gets clearer all the time.
dcmarty
March 13 2007, 2:12PM
Yusef, you seem to forget that the US military is the largest employer in the United States and that they are allowed to actively seek out and fire people based solely on their sexual orientation. Don't be fooled into believing DADT stopped these investigations....it didn't. The fact that the head of the joint chiefs made these comments shows the continued ignorance and intolerance of the military leaders in this nation and it sure as hell directly affects the people who've lost their livelihood based on out-of-date/theocratic policies.
yusef
March 13 2007, 2:17PM
@mel I understand your point but when does it stop...and for the record i am NOT mentally or socially oppressed at all....the "general" or the "president" or any other political or celebrity figure does not affect or effect a change in my everyday life. I go into any store i want to, any restaurant i want, any club i want, buy any clothes , beverage, or food i want, live where i want, walk down any street i want, sleep with who i want, get on any plane i want, drive what car i want, you get my point. So at the end of the day i have done everything that a heterosexual man has done with no problem. my point is (and my fathers),stop wearing your sexuality on your sleeve, your homosexualness is a very small part of who you are as a man, people are trying to make it something that needs to be "accepted" as the norm by society...guess what "it aint happenin" , so just be who you are and LIVE.
The Captain
March 13 2007, 2:26PM
I see your point Keith, but General Pace is more concerned with homosexuality being condoned within our military. Our military is the highest representation to the world about the U.S.
If the military accepts homosexuals to fight and the military is a representation of our country, what impression do you think that will leave on the world?
Mel Smith
March 13 2007, 2:39PM
Yusef, you know what the problem is? I, I ,I ,I ,I , and I. That's the problem. Do you care about the less fortunate, besides you got yours and damn everyone else? When I use the word, 'oppressed,' I'm speaking on behalf of all gay folks, not just me and you. Captain, homosexuals are already fighting in Iraq. Why do people feel that they can disrespect who we and then feel like they don't even owe us a damn apology. We're the only group of people that people feel they can disrespect and then feel they don't owe us an apology.
cmoney
March 13 2007, 2:39PM
The Captain: It would send a great message to the world. It would meant that the US really does believe in freedom and equality. Other nations have gays in their military and do just fine. Just because you hate the fact that you are gay (or used to be--allegedly) does not mean all other gays and many straights see it that way. If General Pace was so damned worried about the image of the US, he would stop killing babies and torturing prisoners. Gays are the least of this country's image problem.
Troy
March 13 2007, 2:58PM
hey Keith is this article the indicator that some under urchins next week will leak out from somebody's staff saying that they slept with or gave a blowjob to the big mouth big brass; I smell another boy-parade-he-done-done me wrong testaphonybalony coming on. The bars & parks in DC just aint big enough for all this.
Derrick from Philly
March 13 2007, 3:36PM
Yusef:
Tim Hardaway wasn't talking about you. He wouldn't have any idea that you "like" other men. When Hardaway said, "...when I see them (gays), I cross the street..." he was talking about gays like me, not you. But I'm 49 years useta' hearing that dumb nigra'/stupid white-trash bullshit. Over the last few years, on these blogs, I've learned to respect some views of traditionally masculine, "normal-looking" homosexual men, but they cannot return that respect. They're either too young or have no memory that there was a time when even they, if it was discovered that they were homosexual, would have it "affect or effect a change in your everyday life." If it were discovered that you were homosexual you faced being fired from your job, prison time, eviction, being dishonorably discharged from the military. Young people like Mel fight so that those bad times won't return.
btw, I useta' have a fat baby's azz, so did Hardaway, I bet.
bubba
March 13 2007, 4:04PM
This post is odd to me. Whites haven't cornered the market on homophobia any more than us. Actually, the world is homophobic. Caucasians in the U.S. aren't that way because of the neoconservative agenda either. Blame religion. The Bush administration only reinforces ideas that were there to begin with. But I'd venture to say that they're more accepting than we are in the black community, percentage wise. Whites have had more time (and more permission) to challenge their religious beliefs, the idea of same sex love being just one. For either group to claim the other is more bigoted seems strange, though. Everyone has different reasons, excuses and degrees of demonstrating intolerance. You say it's easy to criticize athletes and celebs, but why shouldn't it be, especially when they're guilty? Apparently it's just as easy to criticize whites, but they don't force people of color to be bigots. In 2007, there's no way I can expect us not to take responsibility for our own shortcomings for balanced reporting.
nunya
March 13 2007, 4:21PM
First, I must say it's hilarious how you called an opinion "wrong" and referred to voting "the right way."
Second, I don't think that blacks are mimicking whites or the leaders of our country with homophobia. After all, the majority of blacks don't care anything about our country's leaders, especially the current ones. Americans can think for themselves. I think it's another one of those things that some people "agree" with and some don't. I do think homophobia is worse in the black community, partially because blacks and whites generally have different reasons for their homophobia. Some do overlap, such as "morality." But there are also added layers for blacks looking at homosexuality, such as blacks viewing it as something basically manifested in whites, for example.
I do have a problem with the focus on blacks being homophobic, though.
Gary
March 13 2007, 5:26PM
Keith writes, "Black homophobes are taking their marching orders from the homophobic white society that taught them." Keith, I think that you need to take a vacation. Do you really believe this? It might be more productive for you to address your frustration with working with sometimes ignorant white folk than to make hateful claims like this.
yeahisaidit
March 13 2007, 5:49PM
great post bubba, great post...it gave me some additional perspective on an already complex situation...a very insightful p.o.v. IMO...
curious887
March 13 2007, 5:54PM
I agree with you Gary. I think black folks are hating gays fine all by themselves. We don't need white people to do that. True, we adopted Christianity, which I'm not suggesting is a bad thing since I'm a Christian. Along with that, however, we have become so homophobic and self-selecting in the way we read/interpret the Bible that it borders on the absurd. It seems odd to me that anyone in 2007 can say that homosexuality is immoral and point to the Bible to justify that position but not make the same claim about fornication. No where does the Bible say that it is more of a "sin" to be homosexual than to engage in fornication. But who would ever dare tell a service man not to sleep with his girlfriend or fiance after returning home from a tour in Iraq because it would be "immoral" to do so?
Jared
March 13 2007, 6:43PM
This guy is a nitwit and a homophobe, and for the life of me I don't know way anyone, gay or straight would join the military, but, that's another topic. the one thing that surprises me is that so many black gays are being terrorized by other black people. I grew up in a all black neighborhood, and never once was I called any slurs, and even to this day, have never been called a anti-gay epithet, even though, I know live in a 99% white area. I think that if you are in black neighborhoods, you have to take your area back, blaming black people for their silly homophobia based on their "religious" point of view isn't going to cut it, call them out and stand tall. And, if you don't think that the black "church" isn't getting part of their loot from these white homophobia, do a search, and see just how many are tied up with each other with that silly "faith based trash" of Bush. And, I for one don't take them serious, since they have no problem with sex out of marriage, so, who are they to judge me?
ToddyEnglish
March 13 2007, 7:07PM
This is such a smoke screen. We are getting our asses kicked in Iraq so now they have to pull out the "queer defense" for their low approval ratings. When all else fails blame the gays. That is usually how it goes. We are such a convenient political scapegoat now. It does make me angry so much as scared. I don't trust this administration at all. I feel like I'm living in a fascist theocracy not a Democracy.
Anyway, while I agree with Keith I'll have to dissent with him on us taking our marching orders from whites. If that means absorbing Christianity and it's views about sexuality into our collective then I TOTALLY agree...But on that note I think we are just as homophobic as they are. However, we are more ignorant the way we go about it(see: Timmy Hardaway and Isaiah Washington). Here you have a revered military man quietly voicing his disdain for us and you can believe that everyone in the south and midwest agrees with his stupid ass. Whatever.
MrWrite
March 13 2007, 7:08PM
To Candler80: I find that people often take the position that homosexuality is immoral as a means to rationalize their homophobia. In such cases, believing that homosexuality is immoral and homophobia are pretty much interchangeable.
GQ
March 13 2007, 7:17PM
@ Adam. To answer your question about "forward thinking countries (ie Canada & Netherlands) in colder climates" I'll try to give you the Canadian perspective. First, cold got nothing to do with forward thinking unless it's about how people's tempers flare in extreme heat conditions (eg. Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing). Several factors I can offer you -general terms. First, Canada has some history of diplomacy and peace making. People like Nobel prize winner Lester Pearson and others (can't name anyone else right now.) Second, majority of Canadians believe in multiculturism which allows everyone to celebrate and retain their cultural identity in addition to being a Canadian citizen. By celebrating other people's cultures, we build bridges with everyone. (example, we celebrate and/or acknowledge Chinese New Year, St. Patrick's, Diwali, Greek, Muslim, Carribean days etc.) this counters the melting pot theory where everyone can live together if they are "American first cultural 2nd. to be cont. next post
GQ
March 13 2007, 7:55PM
cont. from last post. I guess the foundation for multiculturalism stems from that we embrace the different and diverse communities across Canada. If you're curious Adam, you research that further. Finally, it also helps when you have former prime minister, Pierre Trudeau who made a speech back in 1968 or 69 basically saying (and this is paraphrasing) that what homosexuals do in the privacy in their home is nobody's business legally and morally. Trudeau's speech kind of set the tone to eventually have discrimination laws against gays and lesbians struck down etc in Canada. I think America is still waiting for a presidential ally to echo the same sentiments. And it won't be Bush. So here you have it Adam, I tried to make it as concise as I can be. If anyone else can help me contribute info that I missed please do so.
Karmatic
March 13 2007, 8:26PM
I think the good ole General did us all a favor by revealing his inner hatred..His comments has already sparked round 2 in the debate over "Gays in the Military", and you can bet your mama's cornbread that this firestorm will ultimately benefit the Gay Men and Women serving in our Armed Forces....
ChicagoChild
March 13 2007, 8:53PM
Dear Keith,
My must you insist on asking DUMB questions?
Don't you know that White people are the Truth, the Way and the Light?
They have been trying to get this across to you for how long now?
This is why you see them and their life experiences no matter how nutty, silly or simply dull all over cable television. Why they are represented on most billboards, magazines (even Oprah), etc.
They are the perfect human prototype--just ask them.
Whenever a White does bad or goes wrong, just view it simply the way they do: an angel has fallen.
Whereas the rest of you are bad and can only hope to copy and imitate the ways of God's human prototype on earth: the White man!
Jonathan
March 13 2007, 10:55PM
I am a gay white male who is a NAACP member and has friends within the New Black Panther Party and in the SCLC. I myself have served as Secreatry of our colleg's African American Student Union and I think the difference between homophobia in the black and white community is how upfront people are. Most black people in general tend to be up front with you if there is something about you they don't like and being gay is no exception. Whites on the other hand will often be nice to me to my face perhaps then save all their gossip and homophobia for when I leave the room. That is the diiference I see I personally had rather someone communicate with me about it than talk about me behind my back.
Sophia33
March 13 2007, 11:04PM
Jonathan-
That is so true. I told someone that a while back and they didn't believe me. There is a difference in the expression of homophobia between the two cultures. Whites may grin in your face and then turn around and vote against you in the ballot box. Blacks on the other hand tell you to your face but the issue is not so divisive for us that we got to the polls and but Republicans in office because of it.
olulu
March 14 2007, 2:43AM
so basically jonathon was saying that whites have tact, they are socially aware and sensitive while blacks are rude, tactless, offensively blunt. if so why do we have problem with people like tim hardaway? he was black being frank voicing how he felt. but he hurts a lot of people. he had not tact. he showed no respect to other. we can not control what people say behind us, and we can not hear it anyway; but we can control people what they say in front of us. tim hardaway said something foolish, then he had trouble. jonathan, do you like to be with people who hurt you in front or do you like to be with poeple who show you respect but speak ill of you when they get home?
Cocoa Rican![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.keithboykin.com/blog2/nav-commenters.gif)
March 14 2007, 9:23AM
Take your lives and run! Which is to say, every man and woman of color should allege to be homosexual (openly) and refuse to fight for a country that still does not believe in inclusion and practices ignorance. Let the men and women who believe in the policy of denying gays equal rights and the ability to proudly serve their country and die for it. The message would be much louder and clearer when the extermination of our oppressors is evident.
Mike
March 14 2007, 9:35AM
You know Jonathan, I happen to think that I prefer knowing where someone stands on issues, be it about race or sexuality, be it a general, a basketball player a stand up comic, the bus driver or the checkout woman at the market if I deal with them. I don't want someone smiling in my face and saying something other behind my back. I don't agree with what pace said, but, I can respect him more for it than if he lied about it. And, I don't see why anyone gay or black or Hispanic for that matter would "fight" for this country, when they still aren't reaping the rewards of this so called "freedom."
Peace out.
yusef
March 14 2007, 12:49PM
Mel? what pray tell is "normal looking"....head, shoulders, hands, feet, is that is what your talking about? if not please explain.
Mel Smith
March 14 2007, 1:03PM
Yusef, I don't understand exactly what you want me to explain. Dude, I hope you are a young man who has not fully developed, yet. As Derrick from Philly was explaining(and as I add on), we are in a cultural war; a war against prejudice people who make up the majority of the population(heterosexual people). Often, our family members are blinded by how difficulty it is for us to live in a heterosexist world.
yusef
March 14 2007, 2:54PM
Mel, actually i will be 45 june 10, and like i said before i have never had a problem with my sexuality in terms of "society" or my sexuality stopping me from attaining anything i wanted...i think part of the reason that people feel like the "culture" is under attack is because they want so much to be "accepted" by society..its like gay men need a stamp of approval from somebody to "feel" normal. I have never needed that nor will i ever need that "stamp" nor most if not all the friends i have needed that stamp or validation....because we are Human first who happen to be born MALE who happen to be BLACK and then GAY...most got it twisted and backwards...and have their whole lives sucked up in GAYDOM. Sorry but thats not my life, so if "gay marriage" is never accepted country wide, so what, if the whole damn NBA grabbed a mic a said "i hate gay people" so what, if president Bush said it in his next speech, SO WHAT. You get my point. Just do you.
J
March 14 2007, 3:17PM
I love the idea that homophobia ONLY exists among black people, and that ONLY a black person will shout f-ggot at a SGL because we're all so trashy and full of hate, right?
White people NEVER do that.
Hell, those white boys that Matthew Shepard met up with were trying to make love to him and there was a terrible accident.
White people are much too polite to ever make a homophobic comment, and if they do it's behind your back so of course it doesn't matter or make them homophobes. If they call you a n-gger in private convos, that doesn't matter either and certainly doesn't make them racist.
Ron Lee
March 14 2007, 6:49PM
Whites are MORE HOMOPHOBIC because more and more the non-white community see the white male in general as a gay man. All white men who are attractive and have nice bodies are suspect,also white men who live in the city and are single are suspect.White men who are not conservative today are suspect. Today white woman out number white men in college and many of the white men in college are gay;but white magazines,radio or T.V. aren't publicly discussing this issue. White woman are increasingly dating out there race in the Metro-areas because the population of gay white men in the metropolitan areas are great;we know this cause even in cities with large black populations the gay whites out number us 4or5 to 1 in cities which are heavily black populated.
Mitchell
March 14 2007, 10:30PM
I agree so much with Keith on this subject. Actually, I have been waiting for something of this nature to happen. Isiah and Tim became the WHIPPING boys for the White Gay and liberal establishment. Now you a White straight male that is in control of policy and can influence the direction of thousands and no one has asked for his resignation. Something is so wrong with this picture.
winston
March 15 2007, 3:45AM
RON LEE, U ARE SO OBSERVANT AND DEEP. HOW DID YOU FIGURE THAT OUT?
Ty
March 15 2007, 9:42AM
I agree Mitchell, just where is GLAAD and the HRC? they were all over a played out basketball player and two bit actor demanding their heads on silver platters every 5 minutes. Rosie O' Mouth was ready to put on a protest daily to get IW fired, and yet, she has more or less demurred on this man. This no matter how you cut it, shows, that blacks, and black men in general are still able to be demonized easily, and a straight white man with oodles of power can say what he wants, and they will not go after him. Which is why I have no need for this white gay mafia and their double standard. And, yes, I deplore the insipid comments of I Washington and that other boob Hardaway, and what kind of name is that anyway for a homophobe?
Derrick from Philly
March 15 2007, 10:41AM
Yusef:
"normal-looking" is what black folks have always believed gay men are not. Now, as more TRADITIONALLY MASCULINE LOOKING/ACTING black gay men have come out of the closet (or up from the DL) black folks are learning what white folks have known for a while: that homosexual men can look, act, walk, talk like any "brotha'" you see on the street--normal-looking. My argument on this blog for three years has been: I'm glad to see you "normal-looking" black gay men become more visible, but that doesn't mean my queenie fat baby's azz (I love that term) is going to disappear. When you mentioned "wearing your sexuality on your sleeve," that told me you know exactly what I'm talkin' about when I say, "normal-looking." When hoodlums throw beer bottles at gays it is not because we're wearing our sexuality on our sleeve. It's because to the ignorant gay-bashing motha' f___kas, we "look gay."
edwin greene
March 15 2007, 11:47AM
The attacks by black gays against white gays because powerful white gays "go after homophobic straight blacks more than they go after homophobic straight whites" is interesting. When will gay activists unite across racial lines and go after homophobic straight people regardless of race?
It's depressing that black gay activists spend, it seems, so much time defending straight black people against the charge that they are more homophobic than straight whites. If it's not true, let straight blacks defend THEMSELVES.
I was listening to a black oriented talk radio show last night and heard callers say things like gays should be "branded" or that they should be "put to death" because the Bible says so. There were callers that disagreed, but they were outnumbered.
theeunuch
March 15 2007, 8:16PM
I served in the U.S. Army for 21 years. I received an honorable discharge. I know many other gay men and women who served in our military and are decorated veterans.
Thank God for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Otherwise many dedicated soldiers would have been tossed out on their butts. As I have seen in our military, the most IMMORAL acts were committed by hetero soldiers.
yusef
March 16 2007, 8:13AM
Derrick...how do you look "gay"...if you mean the arch-eyebrowed..bent wrist...high pitch (on purpose) glossy lipped man...then yeah i understand "looking" gay...i dont hang wif dudes like that so i cant speak on it. And throw the beer bottle back for a change thats a start.
Derrick from Philly
March 16 2007, 9:56AM
Yusef: The kind of gays you described (glossy lipped, arched eye-brows) tend to be some tough bitches. Many of them know how to handle gay-bashing. There are a lot of high-pitched voices in the black homosexual world that aren't "on purpose"--they may not be prepared for the violence they'll face.
As for throwin' the beer bottle back: in 1983, I received a sentence of six to twenty-three months for avenging a gay-bashing attack(well, it was partly a sexual assault attempt). I only served 5 days, still it WASN'T worth it--only punks use knives, but that's what the nigguh' said I was, a punk, so I did. Yusef, it's not always loud, flamboyant queens who get bashed, sometimes I think straight guys are scared of them.
Mitchell
March 16 2007, 6:21PM
Edwin,
Give me a break with your kumba ya "dreams." The majority of White gay folks take on the same attitudes as their straight White hereto sisters and brothers when it comes to race. Go to any White gay ghetto and it's rare you will find them embracing Black gays. Secondly, the Whiteness of their skin provides access to opportunities that Black folks are still fighting to obtain. The White gay kids cry and moan, but you best believe they will never give up that White race card. Why no marches? No protest? We all know why. They are not about to challenge a White man in power. This is the classic school yard behavior of cowards that pick on the easiest targets. And, Glaad and the White gay folks behavior is quite evident. And, if you think I am holding hands with GLAAD you are a FOOL, IDIOT, and better yet, Fred Sanford sums it up best "you know what you are?...a BIG OL'DUMMY!"
RON LEE
March 16 2007, 9:48PM
Mitchell,don't get soo defensive those white guys just wan't to marry your brother,father,nephew,uncle; and cousin after they get the right to do so they'll be outta the inner city and on their way to gay suburban Repuglicanville. They just want it all to be legal. BYE,BYE FELLORS.
yeahisaidit
March 17 2007, 2:04AM
...mitchell...fuck the white people...the point that edwin made about straight homophobic Black people...address that...'cuz that is what hurts more is that rejection...how do we begin to create more open communication and understanding within our own community between straights and gays? any thoughts on that?
edwin greene
March 17 2007, 4:29AM
Mitchell, You say white gays are not giving up their white skin privilege. I don't disagree with you on that. But, straight blacks are not about to give up their heterosexual privilege either. If the white gay elites are racist the black straight elites are just as homophobic. Example: what did the national NAACP say publicly about T. Hardaway and his "I hate gays rant". Nothing that I heard about.
Which is worse, Mitchell? Not being "embraced" by white gays in some "white gay ghetto" (where few black gays live/work) OR straight blacks calling in to a black oriented radio talk show, as an example, and saying with intense religious passion (you can feel it in their voices) that gays should be "put to death because it says so in the Bible".
By the way, white gays ARE marching against Gen. Pace's "gays are immoral" statement: see Keith's current Out In Left Field column. And white (and black) gay bloggers are blogging away over it.
edwin greene
March 17 2007, 8:59AM
Mitchell again,
What's up with the name calling? Man, think of other ways to get your point across.
If by "kumba ya dream" you are referring to my statement that gay activists of all races should come together to fight homophobia wherever it shows itself, well, just because it probably won't happen doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
The straight elites of all races like it when gays of all races (but especially white and black gays) fight among themselves over "who's more oppressed" and, lately, "who (between straight blacks and whites) is more homophobic" because time spent doing that is time taken away from fighting homophobia.
I just think some black gay activist (I can't see a white gay activist taking the lead on this) should make a conscious effort to raise the conversation among gay elites and gays on the "street" beyond the "who's more oppressed" and "who's more homophobic" level.
Mitchell
March 17 2007, 10:41AM
Edwin,
First and foremost, I identify as a Black male, and secondly gay. I have encountered limited discrimination based on my sexuality (and that was at the hands of White gay men and women), but I have been regularly discriminated against in society based on the color of my skin. Until this issue of race is resolved in the United States, I have very little time to get involved with GLAAD or any other White Gay organization. I tip my hat to people, such as Keith and Jasymne for fighting the good fight. All I can do at this point is bring change within my own social circle of family, friends, and fellow employees about my sexuality, which I do on a daily basis. And, my name calling was playful banter and to get your attention, which I succeeded in doing.
Jona
March 19 2007, 5:17PM
first of all i just want to say that im a big fan of keith boykin and i think the work he's doing is very important and impressive. as a white gay guy, i think the article definitely has a good point. we tend to see 'black' homophobia more than that of other races e.g. white or asian. that probably also has to do with the image constructed through the media of black masculinity as oppressive, mysogenistic -and homophobic.. and its a heavily featured issue in hip-hop and dance hall so its been in media spotlight. white homophobia is more hidden, its covered up but its still there just the same.
Christopher
March 19 2007, 6:49PM
I think there is a major confusion with folks understanding morality. When people define homosexuality as immoral, and condemn homosexuals to a destiny of hell; they ultimately define their own misunderstanding of the religion/faith they profess. All faiths teach forgiveness and tolerance, they teach that god forgives sins. I think the majority of people do not understand their belief, their god, themselves, nor their neighbors (include we homos here).
Ron Lee
March 19 2007, 9:44PM
Fellors I think the New York Cops killing of Sean Bell,as well as, the killing of Mark David Norris of Philly; should be a conduit to bring the straight & gay young generation of activist together. I think that it would be to the advantage the of the gay communnity to initiate the move. The time is indeed right and ripe. Black Men of all back grounds should come together as one. We can solve our own problems, It's all in our hands. (To yesisaidit).PEACE OUT.
KeepnitReel
March 21 2007, 3:55AM
Keith, for a moment there, I respected your views, but now I'm about to gag. You have yet to answer the question.... If someone simply disagrees with idea of homosexuality as a viable lifestyle, why does that make them homophobic? You repeat that word like a mantra and lable anyone who has opposing views as such. That's not fair. Before you can make such medical diagnosis on anyone, are you a qualified? No disrespect, but to state people have the medical condition of a phobia when a phobia require more than a differing opinion on a subject, is pretty bold. And if you were honest with yourself, you would know that I was right. You have been schooled and taught in the tactics the gay white political machine, thus you operate accordingly via the black community.
Brother, I respect your sense of brilliance, but I'm hip to your game. Black gays, wake up!
yeahisaidit
March 21 2007, 11:41AM
....maybe he's refering to the fact that many of those people with "differing opnions" are in positions of power and make rules and laws that adversely affect gay people...for example, why should gay people have to ask straight people (white or Black) for their permission to marry...straight people certainly don't come to me to ask for mine when they get hitched...homosexuality is about more than just sex (medically no longer considered a disorder for decades...) so it's not a lifestyle, it's a life...going to work, paying taxes, car notes, rents, morgages, raising kids..."viable lifestyle?" YOU BET IT IS...so KeepnitReel why don't you stop indulging in the politics of the "white political machine," 'cuz even if you feel it's unfair to diagnose certain people as homophbic...the attidue of this country is crystal clear in it's position on gays when you look at it's institutions
yeahisaidit
March 21 2007, 1:01PM
attidue=attitude
Malcolm Gossett
March 21 2007, 1:40PM
I agree with you Keith. Actually from a historically perspective, many African societies and cultures (in addition to Native American and Latin ones) were very accepting of queer and genderqueer people and yet when Europeans began colonization such people became considered sexual "deviants" and legal and social restrictions began to be practiced to marginalize and oppress them.
Ron Lee
March 23 2007, 9:44PM
KeepNitReel, in Keiths'defense he's fighting the big fight many times alone. Keith has to go to task with the white community at large,the gay white community,the Black community at large,the gay Black community,the hiv + community. Other than Jasmyne Cannick, I know of no other gay leaders of National prominence. And more and more it's beginnig to look like Keith and Jasmyne are indeed our gay leaders of the day. Although many of our white gay organizations maybe better financed and may have great influence more and more the face of gay America are that of Keith Boykin and Jasmyne Cannick. There is not one white CEO,ED or President of a company that gays all gays can name as our leader which is ironic considering their money and influence. Keith & Jasmyne could even broden their influence if they get more involved with crime and the issue of Gun Violence. If Keith & Jasyme could hook-up with young black str-8 progressive leadership we'd all be happy.
A.J.
March 25 2007, 11:41PM
When I was young (I'm now in my 50's), I could hardly consider the military because I knew I was gay, knew I had to talk about it when I got out of high school, and I probably knew I would benefit from counseling to help me dump all my childhood religious brainwashing. If I were young today and interested in a military career, I would contact Canada or Great Britain and look into signing up in their military. The chances of Canada or UK going to war with the USA is simply non-existent. There is nothing painful about US-British dual citizenship (if you can get it approved in both countries). And if the US military saw 40,000 American youngsters signing up in the military forces of other nations, believe me, they would take notice. This protest would be better than a thousand sit-ins at the Pentagon. My bet is that this would bring DADT to an end in a matter of months.
fiercetp
April 2 2007, 1:30AM
"throw the rock,and hide your hand" that is Caucasians modem operandi....it is a known fact that white men will engage in sex with another man and white women will engage in sex with a another woman
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