Hypocrites!

t-bag
November 3 2006, 4:42AM

This has to be one of the funniest things that I had ever heard, I literally fell over laughing. I honestly couldn't believe it, the pastor of a church with nearly 17,000 members has been engaging in sex with a paid escort for nearly 3 years. The timing of this event is perfect, I just hope someday we are able to get pass the hypocrisy of religious zealots such as these and start realizing that the problem isn't with the homosexuals but with the oppressors who themselves are hiding behind a facade of lies and corruption.

Harry
November 3 2006, 5:50AM

LMAO....I found this funny as well. I feel absolutely NO sympathy for Haggard....none what so ever. based on what he has done, said and supported over the years I can only laugh...gleefully! KARMA IS A BITCH!

Mel Smith
November 3 2006, 8:06AM

Yes! Out those want to be heteroesexual gays. Some of them hate us more than heterosexual people.

cmoney
November 3 2006, 8:18AM

At least Mark Foley didn't pay for his boys! :-) I wonder how much money from the collection plate he was using to pay for his "DL" hookups? I think the next time a conservative, Republican, evangelical "Christian" makes a homophobic remark, he should be instantly outed. It seems to ba pattern: the more anti-gay your statements, the more likely you are to be gay yourself. This could be the new scarlet letter. An "H" for homophobic homosexual--branded right on their butts.

John
November 3 2006, 8:27AM

I have long questioned the intelligence of those who follow these crazy right wing televangelists. Every time one of these bombshells is dropped it makes me wonder even more just how these followers can continue with their distorted value system.

Don't you wonder just how many more of these hypocrites are lurking in Sunday morning pulpits!

James Dobson is such a sleazeball ...!

nreeldeep
November 3 2006, 8:31AM

Well said, t-bag. That's the bottom line.

jared
November 3 2006, 9:00AM

Looks like yet another of the righteous, upstanding "Christians" who are obsessed with gay sex got caught. They are so "curious" that they just have to see what they are supposedly missing, and bang, busted. But, from most reports, the "base" thinks its all a set-up and political, as if the "evangelicals" are anything but a political party first and formost. Maybe they really need to look at some of these web sites where a third of the ads seeking anonymous sex with men are "married, straight" men.

gs
November 3 2006, 9:33AM

His lil' male hoe on the side was cute...saw a pic of him. Anyway, the hypocritical part in all of this wasn't his stance against gay marriage. For the life of me, I have no idea why gay activisits think every gay person (open or closeted) wants the federal government to intervene in who can or cannot get married.....but the hypocritical part was living a double life (if it's true), and the harm it has done to his wife, children, and congregation. That's the saddest part of it all. I'm not a homosexual that detests hetero relationships, so my heart goes to his family nor am I so hateful of Christians that I gloat when one is exposed. Gloating is indicative that deep inside I may think something is wrong with him being gay. WHo gives a damn about his stance on gay marriage and him being gay. If the accusations are true then the man is guilty of one thing.....being an adulterer...now that's a hypocrite.

kc
November 3 2006, 9:38AM

Well, talk about hypocrisy. Some people fail to realize that they too have "character flaws" which they condemn in others- talk about psychological projection. It saddens me- that it has to come to this for some people really to be true to themselves, what a tangled web we weave............for a him to indulge in licentious behavior and at the same time, forbidding or denouncing others for practicing the same, damn what the hell was he thinking- with the wrong "HEAD" I guess."Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye" Matthew 7:5.........
it would be ridiculous to help someone remove a splinter or a piece of sawdust from their own eye, if you yourself had an entire log in yours and hadn't first tried to remove it (i.e. attempt to resolve your own flaw).

Jamel
November 3 2006, 9:38AM

The question is: How many brothers who are so called 'annointed' to preach, are leading a double life behind the choir loft? I checked on streamingfaith.com and found so many black preachers leading duplicate lives, using offering for personal gratification and pointing their toes towards the ceiling while taking it deep and hard from male ushers, deacons and men in the young adults ministry. When such scandal breaks, the church board will quietly have that pastor move to another church and cite 'personal' reasons are why he is moving on. Instead of going to the root of the issue and making that pastor accountable for his actions, seek professional help and admit that he is gay. Since the stigma of being 'gay' is so bad in the black community, many DL pastors would rather cover their DL dirt by having a church girl huzzy on the side as an additional cover. So deep is our self hatred!

C. Baptiste-Williams
November 3 2006, 9:42AM

Seeing this on the Today show when I woke up this morning totally made my morning.

Charles
November 3 2006, 9:59AM

WOW, it is nice to see that you are VERY one sided Keith, that man is innocent until proved guilty. One man getting on a talk show or radio show saying what he has done with Haggard is not enough. He must offer more than the accusation that he has voice mail etc and a fabricated story is not enough. Now when we here the tapes or see some emails then Haggard is guilty and not before.

As you know Keith the media is a very tricky thing and you can not go marching into it with your ducks in a row. Haggard is running a huge congregation with many people that he must answer to. Your narrow sided and mean spirited view is not needed, you want gays (black and white) to be treated with dignity and respect well then you must do the same to everyone else even those who are not aligned with your views.

chris-leo
November 3 2006, 10:04AM

let me get this...uh... straight. this dude is THE DUDE who's the leader of thirty million evangelicals???

to quote kathy griffin, "IT'S LIKE A HUG FROM JESUS."

i think we've finally found the kryptonite to combat these so-called evangelicals. since nobody can possibly live up to their "STARDARDS," they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

kc
November 3 2006, 10:08AM

It's not over yet, ther's more to come- only the truth can set anyone free. The DL [DAMN LIES/LIERS] I call it[been DL], is a dangerous life to live. Hey, I am not about to tell anyone how to live- mind you my life in others eyes may not be what society think should be .......status quo, but at least I know that I am not "confused" about who or what I want. So, there is no double standards. Isn't the DL life an "expensive one" - danger, money been spent, secrective, fear?....nah, wouldn't want such at all!
However, you all need to check out what is happening in Atlanta with the James Dobson conference.
www.lovewonout.com

And if you all have time check out www.11alive.com, then go to the search area and type in James Dobson in the Video Now Screen, or Video You Choose and check the latest- and watch away- the man opposes stem cell, sponge bob, etc. "Ignorance and Educated Fools"

kaccompany
November 3 2006, 10:14AM

Church Leader Says Haggard Admits To Some Indiscretions
Interim Senior Pastor Says Haggard Admits Indiscretions -- Raw Interview
Ted Haggard Accused
Colorado Springs
Updated: 12:26 AM Nov 3, 2006
11 News

A sudden about-face in the scandal facing New Life Church's pastor.

After Pastor Ted Haggard went public Wednesday night denying allegations of a homosexual affair, senior church officials told KKTV 11News Thursday evening, Pastor Ted Haggard has admitted to some of the claims made by a former male escort. The church's Acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions claimed by Mike Jones, but not all of them.

Thursday morning, Jones went on a Denver radio talk show and said Pastor Haggard paid him for sex over the past 3 years. Jones also claims Haggard used drugs with him.

Right now, the situation is under investigation by an independent panel of leaders from four outside churches. The leaders are from Colorado Sp

slugger103
November 3 2006, 10:23AM

Personally I believe we should expose all of the black ministers who are preaching an anti-gay agenda. Trust me they will lost their support quickly.

Jason
November 3 2006, 10:31AM

The allegations surfaced as voters in Colorado and seven other states get ready to decide Tuesday on amendments banning gay marriage. Besides the proposed ban on the Colorado ballot, a separate measure would establish the legality of domestic partnerships providing same-sex couples with many of the rights of married couples. Church members were stunned. "It's political, right before the elections," said Brian Boals, a New Life member for 17 years. Church member E.J. Cox, 25, called the claims "ridiculous." "People are always saying stuff about Pastor Ted," she said. "You just sort of blow it off. He's just like anyone else in the public eye." The accusations were made by Mike Jones, 49, of Denver, who said he decided to go public because of the political fight over the amendments.

castiron
November 3 2006, 10:43AM

This is a classic case of "Thou dost protest too much." He was so harsh in his judgement of others,yet we now learn that he was paying a hustler (an old ragedy one at that) for sex. Touche

Rockinrob
November 3 2006, 10:48AM

Don't mess with my God! He will always have the last word.

What's sad is that these people know who He is, but seem to think that He doesn't know what they're doing or that they can continue to speak with a forked tongue while representing him in the pulpit. That in itself is a huge JOKE! They're supposed to be so intelligent, but do some of the dumbest things imaginable!

The media has nothing to do with what this guy has done. Bottom line....If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....it's a damn duck!

Twan86695
November 3 2006, 10:53AM

Source: Rod 2.0

Unlike Rev. Taggard

Pastor Comes Out, Steps Down

After more than a lifetime of service to the church, one of Colorado's leading civil rights advocates preached his last sermon on Sunday—weeks after coming out of the closet.

"I was raised in this congregation and started preaching when I was 14-years-old," says Reverend Benjamin L. Reynolds. Reynolds continued preaching at Emmanuel Missionary Baptist Church in Colorado Springs as the senior pastor for nearly 16 years. Last month, Rev. Reynolds came out of the closet to his congregation. The pastors say his positions on lgbt issues—not his own orientation—led to the resignation.

Some time ago, Reynolds declared that the church was an "open and affirming" place for gays and lesbians to worship. He said that upset a lot of members. "My position/stance on gay/lesbian issues had been divided from many in my congregation. Life is a series of calls, and I'm being called to another area of development."

ines
November 3 2006, 10:55AM

well, well.....karma is a mother, ain't it!? how many of the other pathological, anti gay christian pastors are doing the same thing as haggard? what a sicko! then he was on crystal meth, too........i think the people in these congregations need to wake up and start asking these pastors questions. their abnormal obsession with homosexuality is the result of internalized homophobia. it's that clear. some of the anti gay black pastors are going to start realizing that they cannot continue to preach this anti gay mess because their own secrets will come out, literally. haggard is one of the first to be outed but i am sure he won't be the last.....i wonder who will be next......

Derrick from Philly
November 3 2006, 11:12AM

Doesn't every culture have the old folk humor about the preacher who secretly deals with sexual demons, and eventually is "outed" by his own sins. It must go back hundreds, maybe thousands of years. That's why it's so silly how people follow these "men of faith". From Catholic Priests, to Islmamic Imans (remember Elijah Muhammad's scandals with underage girls), to these Protestant fundamentalist fools.
People still don't get it. They want to point fingers at Jesse Jackson and Al Shapton for making personal mistakes. But Jackson and Sharpton (and Dr. King, now that I think about it)don't point a hypocritical finger condemning Homosexuals. These right-wing jackasses do. It used to be a "loose" woman could bring a preacherman down, now it's a PRETTY BOY. And right before Election Day--Lord, thank you! These right-wing religious fanatics are getting exactly what they deserve.

Party Time
November 3 2006, 12:09PM

What I find funny is that this man was on some NBC special a while back. Which praised evangelicals and thier influence on politics. Its sad to find out that this man who preached angelic nature is infact a homosexual himself. Got damn. Those republics are disgraced.

Nyah Molineaux
November 3 2006, 12:31PM

Keith: Do you know that Carl Rove's adopted father was a gay man.

Carl Rove was adopted by his father after his biological father abandoned his mother. From what I understand his adopted father moved to Vegas or California where he lived his life as a gay man.

His father died in 2004, and no comment was made about his death in the media (not even an obituary).

There is a book currently out there about Carl Rove.
These men are hypocrites.

Dilcie
November 3 2006, 12:39PM

What's done in the dark comes to the light, sooner or later...

bubba
November 3 2006, 12:46PM

This seems to happen every five minutes now, and while I normally wouldn't give credit to the notion that homophobes are hiding their own gayness, stories like this plead that case pretty well. But we have to get over the thrill of seeing the hypocrisy exposed. These witch hunts only serve to weed out the undesirable element of society that most folks don't want. Instead, it's time to use these opportunities to declare that our lives are more common and NORMAL than they are seen as. What better way to wean off the titties of Biblical hocus pocus.

Shabaka
November 3 2006, 1:19PM

I dunno, it's weird but I, myself, have my doubts about Mike Jones'story. I guess it's because of the timing...So first Foley, and then that other guy and now a very homophobic televangelist? Who's next? Bush? There's something very off about this. I just can't put my finger on it. Besides, Jones underwent a lie detector test and the polygraph test just failed according to the Denver Post. So until Jones'story is proven to be legit, we can only sit here and make fun of Haggard just because it feels good to have another bigot "outed" unceremoniously.

jared
November 3 2006, 1:20PM

Of course this is news, and big news. The "evangelicals" are in the bisuness of making money, not saving souls. And, as long as this gay marriage thing is on the front burner, they will keep making money and keep in power, as the populace of this country isn't enlightend enough to not care what others do in thier bedrooms. The only thing this nosey man wants to know, is what were is kinks, since he seems like a uptight kind of guy, which is what happens when you try and live the life of a liar.

ALLEGRO
November 3 2006, 1:51PM

They need to PUBLICLY go after KEN MEHLMAN next. He's the chairman of the Republican National Committee. he keeps dodging questions about his own sexual orientation.

SEE HERE http://www.gaypeopleschronicle.com/stories05/march/0325054.htm

He's nothing more than a modern day ROY COHN

saint james
November 3 2006, 1:55PM

I guess its true. He has admitted to "some" of the allegations but not all of them. Well, this comes to mind, A biblical proverb; "Be careful not to take delight in your ememy's plight; if you do the LORD will see you and be displeased with YOU (paraphrase; emphasis mine). That would be appropriate for the "Jesus is a Right Wing Republican" camp....... and maybe for a few posters.

Be careful not to hate Ted too much; he is a gay man. The church much be honest about human sexuality and stop pretending that everyone is straight and that those who are gay are of the Devil. I read where his church and his supporters are "lovingly supporting" him. Jesus said;"if you do that only for your friends what distinguishes you from the heathen?" Ted Haggard, Dr. Dobson of "Focus on the White, Upper Middle Class, Ultra Conservative Family" and others should revisit the words of Christ before their next political campaign.

Mikey--He Likes It
November 3 2006, 3:53PM

Modern day conservatism is a cult and these people are truly bizarre!!

gs
November 3 2006, 4:12PM

Rita Crosby had a good interview with the Escort, Mike Jones, on MSNBC. I question his story now regarding sex cause he admitted that he failed the lie detector test he took today that he requested to be taken. He failed on the sex questions. Now Haggard admits drugs, but not sex. Plus the guy says he has no evidence of them having sex, but 2 voicemails in 3 years surrounding drug purchase. Regardless...Haggard was wrong and deserves the public embarassment he's getting. The drama continues....

Liquid Fonts
November 3 2006, 4:16PM

Before everyone rushes to judgment please understand that by having sex with that prostitute, Haggard may have only been trying to see what it's like to be gay so that he could better understand the gay communuty and perhaps extend more compassion to us. I encourge all the male evangelicals to follow his lead.

saint james
November 3 2006, 4:16PM

Oh,.....Well maybe he isn't a gay man. Nevermind.

t-bag
November 3 2006, 6:23PM

Haggard is nothing more than a self-loathing, drug abusing, alleged homosexual who vigorously imposed his fundamentalist and Evangelical Christian values on the general public while leading a life of dishonesty and embarrassment. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and I for one am tired of people such as him condemning others for living a life that is considered to be contradictory to Christian dogma while they on the other hand are doing things that are morally reprehensible. I might have originally jumped the gun along with others but there is not doubt that this man has admittedly done some wrong and has shamed his family and its about time that others such as him realize that we all face the same temptation and that his "holier than thou" mentality can not be used to repress homosexuals and other repressed people because they are in a position to do so. He made a big deal about family values but it is he who has 5 kids and a wife who has disgraced family values not the homosexuals.

Ty
November 3 2006, 8:25PM

I don't know which I find stranger, that he got busted for being in the closet and a meth queen, or that there is actually someone 49 years old and still hooking, even though he wasn't too bad for a white guy that age in the looks department. Those urges of these so called straight men to see what its like on the other side of the fence is just sickening. Other than the gay community which he has bashed and hurt, I can just imagine how his wife and kids must feel. Like one of the posts here said, these married men trolling online and in parks for sex, pay or free need to be outed and stopped, especially those in positions of power.

cmoney
November 3 2006, 8:29PM

He's gay. Come on! You don't need to call a gay male prostitute to get crytal meth or a "massage". He can get meth anywhere (especially in the Red states!) and a massage at any legitimate spa. But he chose a male prostitute that advertises on gay sex websites to score his meth and a massage. I'd be willing to bet that the main thing he got massaged was his prostate.

nahtanserious
November 4 2006, 1:04PM

cmoney ROTFL nuff said! MY mom used to say "JESUS come for your world!"

Ryan
November 4 2006, 1:16PM

This is not the same thing of Jesus and the prostitute. This is about a man who is a leader and by his word he commited a sin. Ok. Unbelievers, atheists (though there is no atheists) and all other kind of people I just have to tell you that Jesus Christ himself came for those who are not perfect. I don't believe he committed the sexual acts. Though he may knew this gay. Jesus didn't came for the righteous but the sinners and Tedd Haggard is one of them like all of us. Don't try to point on Haggard. Please and what about Mike Jones the male prostitute. Man this gay is the scam of society and he is politically motivated. If God wanted man to marry man he would created only 2 man or even 2 women. I feel sorry for Haggard and for the this gay called Mike. That gay is motivated by money and politics. This is even worst he is like a hooker.

jared
November 4 2006, 1:54PM

Ryan, you are entitled to your opinion, but, I disagree. Marriage isn't anything but a legal contract not something given based on some religious faith, and the government should not be in the business of saying who can get it and who should not. While I think that some in the gay community have made a huge mistake in trying to force this marriage issue onto a society that is far too backwards to understand equality and in effect keeping the GOP in office to ruin the lives of so many who aren't glbt via laws and other repugnant ideas, in this country they have that right to sue for fairness, a concept that those who claim to be religious have no clue about. And, lastly, my gripe with the so called black church and the gay marriage issue, is they need to focus on the fact that 65% of black children are born out of wedlock and promiscuity within this context, and work on the heterosexuals who seem to not know what marriage even is.

k wilson
November 4 2006, 7:37PM

See!...another one bites the dust. This story would be an issue of just exsposure if this guy was'nt such a decieving fool. Why in the world dont these guys stop damming the very activity they enjoy. We all know that just because an man is a preacher or political leader, doesnt make his dick any more holy than any one else. I have no remose for this man, his family, or the community in which his served. One thing we all should have learned over the years about God, and that is he is just and without respect of person. YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW...no matter who are what you claim to be.

deejay
November 4 2006, 7:52PM

There's no way his wife didn't pick up that her husband was attracted to men. If she was married long enough to bear him 5 children, she knew something was going on with men, even if she didn't want to face up to what that SOMETHING was.

I'm not blaming her. She's a victim of his hypocrisy also. But this was no shock.

John Garlington
November 5 2006, 4:17AM

Check this out...should gave a laugh of irony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rSjrBhUIA&eurl=

seeking
November 5 2006, 8:25AM

I will agree with some, that,being joyful over someones demise is not what we are about.It's ashame that we have lowered our standards to thier level.Some of us have been outed in a church or a place of hyperites, we have all people, should understand the remifications that surrounds this situation. It's a difficult process for him and his family, wife and kids. I remember before i fully accepted that I was queer, i was one of those individuals who didn't like the fact that they were openly queer folk. The church has a lot to do with this indoctrination. I was thought that it was a sin, and thus i fought with my sexuality for years.If we can only remember the pain of doing something, or representing something because it was expected of us, then surly we can have some compassion.We should learn to accept and pray for these falling ones. Help them to see that God still love them.Many of these individuals fall into deep depression and need a place to turn.Let us not cast the 1st stone, cause we/I have all sined

Marlon
November 5 2006, 10:24AM

CRUSIFY HIM!! What about Intergrity?
Hey, all my UT Austin and sourthern Texans, vote for my road-dog on Tuesday. Take a look! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LatBSCvswxw

Jeff
November 5 2006, 10:36AM

Actually, seeking, the pastor cast the first stone. The church has been casting stones forever at us. So now we're supposed to be the compassionate ones? Please.
I'm tired of the Right Wing christians and their fascist ways. It's time they know that they have to practice what they preach and stop being so hypocritical.

seeking
November 5 2006, 12:07PM

Jeff, i clearly understand where your coming from, however rubbing salt into his wounds, will not make us feel better about ourselves. We are trying to educate the masses. We are trying to show them that we are not freaks or deviants. We are educated folks, who love and care like they do. Bashing someone, as i stated before, is that we are continueing where they left off. We should rise above that. I work in an multicultural high school, when homophobia becomes an issue amongst our black youths we try to show them the errors of their ways, by telling them that the hatred we felt as blacks, minorities, we should not put another minority group through the pain and struggles we had to and still enduring. We should be more tolorant of other minorities. Wanting to be treated better as a culture, we have to learn to be able to redirect this anger in a more positive way, and think " how can this man's misfortune help us fight our fight".

dean
November 5 2006, 4:45PM

mel said "Yes! Out those want to be heteroesexual gays. Some of them hate us more than heterosexual people"

Mel they are the only ones who hate us and the women married to them

Errol
November 6 2006, 10:38AM

Guys, gay acts does produce NO fruit. to spill your seed into dead anal waste produces nothing. It's only sexual gratification. Anything that does not produce positiveness must be cut down. Also, most churches in the world are teaching its members that they do not have to obey God's standards which can be found in Exodus 20:1-17. If an indivudual claims to have accepted God as Lord and Saviour the person is willing and obedient to the teachings and lifestyle of Jesus. The Bible says that people would want smooth things preached to them in the last days and not obeying the standards of God will definitely lead to events like this happening to clergy as well as church members. Many people want God as Saviour but not as Lord of their lives. Both have to go together. God will allow more people to be exposed who are fleecing the flock for their own political and financial gains.

jay
November 6 2006, 11:23AM

Hey Errol,

What did the gay sperm say to the other gay sperm?

How are we suppose to find an egg in this CRAP!!!

God created homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals all of his creations produce fruit.

Jeff
November 6 2006, 12:34PM

Gee Errol. You must be a scientist or something. Lay off the BS here. There are plenty of heterosexuals who do not want to produce "Fruit". You mean to tell me they're going to Hell? Also, you mean to tell me heterosexuals aren't having sex just for gratification? That's another one of the lies you all like to tell. The same lies that have kept my people in bondage since slavery. You all sound like little kids. The Bible says this and the Bible says that. You're like the little kids who tell on everybody. Ands as far as producint fruit goes, gays are already "fruitful" so we have that covered (thank you very much).

jared
November 6 2006, 3:17PM

erroll, you must be one fun guy in person! how much of the "seed" produces children? i love it when i read this sort of tripe, the same ones who are so anti-gay sex, and btw, not all gay men have anal sex, but the same ones are the ones who won't lift a finger to help a child, so, just like the rest of the so called, brain washed black victims of white mans "religion" your theory falls on deaf ears or in this case, blind eyes. now, off to your bible study group where maybe you can learn why blacks still can't get access to jobs, decent schools and housing, and most of all why it is that the unsafe sex practices of the so called "straights" is wiping out a generation of young black adults? and don't get me started on the money hungry black "preachers" who are good at one thing, finding the dimwitted to fill thier churches and wallets and will sell out to anyone with enough money to push the anti-gay agenda, hence this alingment with the gop.

Jeff
November 6 2006, 9:44PM

Heterosexual man says to wife "We're not doing this for enjoyment, we're doing this for God". She lifts her legs up high in the air and says "For God". How ridiculous does this sound? That's the problem with some Christians. They can't be real and say they're just getting their swerve on. By Errol's reading, those that use condoms or birth control pills must be in error too since they're not procreating. Sex is not just meant for procreating. Christians enjoy it too. Let's stop being in denial. It doesn't help anybody when we're not being real with ourselves.

Jaxsondeville
November 7 2006, 2:17PM

To Errol, do what you do man. All of this are opinions anyway. Who has the right and wrong answers to anything. If you dont believe the bible, surely that is your choice. If you believe it to be "the white mans" religion, that is your coice. And we wonder why they say we are crabs in a barrel. It is so amazing how we can criticize the "black church" for the negative, but yet no one seems to point out the good that is being done 95% of the time. We are no better than the white media when we fall into that trap. Why hasnt Keith reported on that? Where are the comments on that? Why are we so eager to jump on the negative so quick? And you wann talk about BS???

bemused
November 11 2006, 11:16AM

if you want to destroy culture cast out the sgl people they knew that and told us to exactly that then laughed and watched us fail, we could never compete without our strengh
we are the peacemkers in every community and our "value" has been diminished thats why we fight amongst ourselves over trivia. We are attacked by our own people cause they know there is a battle but they don't know who it is with.