Black and Gay in the Church

s25
October 31 2006, 2:18PM

Totally disagree about the homophobia ending if everyone comes out! That's pure b.s and that leaving all the responsibility to the homosexuals. The real problem in our community is colonization. We believe fundamentally in a religion that was forced to our ancestor through slavery. The white man does not need to enslave us anymore, we are colonized in the mind. We have to remember that the homophobia that exist in this country came from Europeans. They were the ones that enforce sodomy laws in this country. Most Indigenous tribes Africans, and Asians before colonization accepted homosexuality and gender was not just patriarchial but thought of differently depending on the tribes and context. Overall our community needs to deal with the damage Christianity, or the white man version of Christianity has done to our communities!

Paul
October 31 2006, 2:27PM

S25--I AGREE!
"The real problem in our community is colonization. We believe fundamentally in a religion that was forced to our ancestor through slavery. The white man does not need to enslave us anymore, we are colonized in the mind. We have to remember that the homophobia that exist in this country came from Europeans."
I CAN'T EVEN EXPOUND ON THE FOREGOING S25 AS YOU'VE GOT A GRIP ON THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM.

LFarmer
October 31 2006, 2:48PM

WOW, all I can say is I agree with the two statements made before me. I would also like to extend my support to the brotha for coming out and leaving so tastefully. I was raised Baptist and used to hear the homophobic words of my minister and eventually found spiritual solace in Santeria. however, I will say there are many Christians who are not homophobic, but are never given the opportunity to speak like the idiots either on TV or in front of the pulpit!

Texas76132
October 31 2006, 3:25PM

His bravery is to be admired. I would definitely attend his church if he were to start one. The gay issue needs to be addressed with the black church but I have to admit it's not the same as being black. I realize it every time I walk into a store parking lot and hear remote door locks click shut or attempt to use the self service line at the grocery store and suddenly see an attendant appear. The argument that gays are minorities in the same way that blacks are will never fly with black people or the church. A gay man could sit at the lunch counter; a black man could not. I tend to agree with them. Equating homosexuality with being black is the wrong approach to take. So is challenging their right to have an opinion because they are black. We don't do that to other groups. I hope more pastors follow his lead. Maybe the answer to this is to start or own churches and use the power of the law to keep them safe and then take the next step, whatever that is. He is my man of the year! This is big news.

Kenneth Winfrey
October 31 2006, 3:46PM

It's the church's loss.

Perhaps one day homosexuality will be seen for what it is: something that is NOT counter-Christian.

I am "Christian" (adj.), but I stopped being a "Christian" (n.) a long time ago. I refuse to give my time, energy or effort to any orgnaization(s) that bears the name of Christ while they do nothing but judge and condemn.

AJ
October 31 2006, 4:16PM

I agree with s25,it seems a'lot of the views of Black Americans these days originate from out-dated european idealogical views.If Europe has managed to forget these ridiculous ideas and move on,which it has,I live in Europe and am legally allowed to get married,adopt children,am protected by the law against discrimination of my sexuality,then the Black American community is no different,and WILL be able to move on.But as Europeans did,Black Americans need to find a solution to their internal problems before they can attempt to band together and fight the external ones.It ent easy,but it can be done!

Bellah
October 31 2006, 4:36PM

Thank you thank you thank you s25. It is so rare to find a needed voice like yours on these pages.

For too long the indigenous peoples have allowed the "scourge" of Christianity to destroy their communities. We must stop trying to please the church and reclaim our history. Slavery came to all of us in different forms but with the same effect. They stole our lands, our languages, our cultures in the name of the Church.

I will always have faith in a Greater Spirit and my peoples, but will always know the church to be a thief.

pc
October 31 2006, 5:51PM

i attend a mega-church in houston where my pastor does not preach against homosexuality. he actually embraces all people. i realize this may not be the norm, but there are glimmers of hope out there.

nahtanserious
October 31 2006, 6:22PM

s25 has echoed what I have been pointing out all along. So many people seem to base their lievs on 'christianity ' as if this is the only religion. More importantly are we to believe that all our ancestors who were not christians are condemned to 'hell'.

The world existed before christianity and even the bible says this (BC and AD)

But I believe in allowing people the freedom mto worship as they see fit even if I don't agree with them. So I am happy for this guy in his coming out

Kev Ross
October 31 2006, 6:27PM

I LOVE this picture of him and the background reference. Has anyone every given thought to this? I personally have always felt that African American men's hatred towards gays has something to do WITH slavery which has caused the seperation in our community today. The Block: always the biggest, muscle-bound mandingo stud, who had to bare having his nuts (penis) grabbed by a white man to see how virile he was, was that hand a lab, or a scale? The Concept: Do it or die! That slave's job INLCUDED forced and possibly degrading stud service for MANY of those white women AND MEN (sans HIStory book's truth) look at where black men are today. I don't doubt they were humiliated in front of thier wives and children too. Just a thought...

Stuffed Animal
October 31 2006, 6:32PM

Some thoughts: 1)Black Gay people coming out won't end heterosexism and homophobia, that's true. However, if large numbers of us were out of the closet and militant about our human rights, we'd have an intimidation factor in our favor that we don't have now. The bigots would say the same things about us that they do now, but they would say them less belligerently. 2)Europeans didn't invent Christianity. They were converted to it, just like African slaves were, and they've done a Hell of a lot to pervert its practice, just like many descendants of African slaves have done. We can blame White people for the wrong they did us, but we can't blame them for the wrong we do to ourselves. 3)I don't understand this desire some folks have to separate their Blackness from their Gayness and compare them to each other. Gay Black people are stereotyped as thugs. Gay Black people suffered the effects of legal segregation. Gay Black people were slaves. Why must we partition our identity into little boxes?

DrChris
October 31 2006, 7:02PM

I recommend reading the book "Their Own Receive Them Not: African American Lesbians and Gays in the Black Churches". It's by Dr. Horace Griffin who happens not only to speak eloquently on the subject but is also a great friend of mine. I agree that the lack of will to discuss the topic has probably contributed to the staggering number of new cases of HIV/AIDS in the African-American community. So I'm thrilled that Horace has written this book and I hope it deepens discussion.

quincy
October 31 2006, 8:29PM

i will help you with a sandy fund as soon as I can.

Benita Reynolds
November 1 2006, 12:36AM

First I must state the obvious that Benjamin Reynolds is a wonderful and truly talented man of God and that I love my brother dearly. The call on his life has made me a stronger person in my faith and his bold move to step out of the closet has made me even more proud!
That said, his giant steps to open the eyes of the many blinded people within this community has had a profound effect; yet many that have followed him have not heeded his words of acceptance. All Benjamin has ever taught has been of biblical base and with strong conviction. Never has he strayed to personal lecture or doctrine.
A bold, strong and righteous move indeed and many will follow in his footsteps and learn to veer off the path of judgement and condemnation of a high powers children.
Hold your head high my dearest brother!~

the_phunk_doctor
November 1 2006, 1:29AM

I want to personally thank Pastor Reynolds for taking the road less traveled. One of the most courageous things I believe an individual can do, is walk in the paths of righteousness in the midst of persecution. You have truly exemplified what it means to be a person of integrity and also a model of what authentic compassion should look like.

YU B PREACHIN
November 1 2006, 7:29AM

The challenge that is ever before the church is not one of erasing homophobia but of teaching love for all of God’s children. Love is a tough subject to talk about in the church because so much of our humanity is compartmentalized when we walk into structures shaped by postmodern walls and contemporary stained glass windows. Our true selves have been masked by patty cake praise and crack like spiritual highs that fill surface voids but fails for some reason of creating systemic change.
If I am not mistaken Colorado Springs is known as the Religious Epicenter. That means there is more “God” per square inch than any other city in the world. With so much “God” in one place, why is love so scarce? Maybe it is time that we start focusing on our family and find ways that we can love until the Beloved Community becomes a reality.
I once heard this brilliant orator of the gospel preach a sermon in Colorado Springs entitled, “Kerry-ing On Despite of the Bush-es”. Do that Doc because we need ya!

MAXQTHRUST
November 1 2006, 7:42AM

THIS is a little off topic but it struck me that if gay marriage be comes law and churches do not marry gays and lesbians they may be in a position to loose there tax exempt status? so it is more an issue of dollars and cents then any thing else. like the boyscouts not allowing for a gay man to be a scout leader. and to the brother who came out to his church and ended his position as pastor. I would say he should immediately start taking self defence classes because he is as any gay idenified man or lesbian a target for a gay bashing. it happens everywhere and no one will help you if you are attacted straight or gay. the only way to build strenght and power is from within.

ChicagoChild
November 1 2006, 9:16AM

I have to absolutely congratulate this man.

All the giants of our recent history were mowed down and silenced so that that the "current crop" of truthless "men" and "women" we have in "leadership" today could flow to the top.

I will be looking forward to reading further about him in the future.

C. Baptiste-Williams
November 1 2006, 9:20AM

Hopefully his journey will inspire others.

Luddite
November 1 2006, 9:29AM

Two thoughts:

1. Rev. Reynolds is a very brave man. He lives his life in truth. May God protect him and bless him in his future endeavors.

2. Many thanks to Stuffed Animal to remind us that the ancient Greek and Roman societies were all Pagan during the "BC" era, as was all of Europe (Druids, Vikings etc). I can assure everyone that the Christians in Europe did not politely convert the Pagans. Torture and murder was the norm. The word faggot that means "a bundle of sticks for burning"? That is what happened to Gays/Lesbians when the Christians were burning witches (pagans). The homos were bundled up like kindling and placed at the foot of the stake where the pagan was tied up.

JP
November 1 2006, 10:38AM

Thank you Rev. Reynolds. Keep allowing God to use you to touch and save lives. I admire your courage and humility. And thank you Keith for always linking us to the winners.

s25
November 1 2006, 10:51AM

Thank you guys for supporting some of my thoughts! I appreciate the love! Don't get me wrong I grew up in a Pentacoatal Black chruch, COGIC, so I could relate to the pain and suffering of homophobia in the chruch and being colonized mentally with Christianity. There are so positive elements of Christianity but to believe in it fundamentally, without question, especially since it was taught to us and Native Americans by Europeans during slavery is the issue I have with the Black chruch.

s25
November 1 2006, 11:22AM

We can blame White people for the wrong they did us, but we can't blame them for the wrong we do to ourselves.

I agree, however we have to acknowledge how they White man has colonized us mentally with his version of Christianity. The white man version of Christianity is not progressive to woman, homosexuals, and women. The white man version of Christianity tell us the Adam and Eve Narrative without acknowledging the many creation stories in African, Native American, and Asian indigenous cultures.
These are the elements of Christianity we practice in the Black chruch and it is linked to how Chrisitianity was taught to us in slavery. Furthermore, this form of Christianity is what justified the Native American genocide, manifest destiny, and what we are using for the justification of the war in Iraq! The form of Christianity we practice in the black chruch is linked to oppression!

Deborah
November 1 2006, 1:14PM

What Rev. Reynolds did takes courage. We should embrace him with support and acceptance. He, like those of us with Sankofa Way, Stands for justice, equality, and peace.

Join a community conversation that will include Rev. Reynolds.
_________________________________________________________
Black Homophobia, Black Churches, Black Lives: Break the Silence.

Chicago: Monday, November 13 (6:30 to 10:00pm)
75 East Wacker Drive—Bella Bacino’s (located in Club Quarters Hotel)

Break the silence. Build community beyond barriers.
Share your story. Hear the stories of others. All are welcome!

Speakers Include:

Cleo Manago, founder of the Black Men’s Xchange (BMX), founder and CEO of the AmASSI Health and Cultural Centers.

Terri Pease, Domestic Violence/Trauma expert, educator, and author.

Juan Reed, Episcopal priest, social worker, and 2005 inductee in the Chicago Gay and Lesbian Hall of Fame.

Tommie Watkins, Baptist minister, lgbt civil rights advocate, and author.

RSVP: http://www.sankofaway.org

Stuffed Animal
November 1 2006, 3:20PM

The White man converted our ancestors to Christianity as a means of imprinting his racist philosphy on them, but it didn't work. They saw through it and turned Christian doctrine against him. Why, then, have Black people allowed themselves to be imprinted with sexist and heterosexist philosophy? Could it be it was imprinted before our ancestors were brought to these shores? Remember, Christianity isn't the only ancient faith whose scripture incorporates bigoted views of women and homosexuality. We simply cannot lay this sin at the White Devil's feet! We need to take responsibility for our own prejudices. BTW, here's an alternate Hebrew translation of a verse from the Adam and Eve narrative: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created him. Adam was created as an androgynous man. What would be the closest thing in modern society to androgynous man? Think about it.

S25
November 1 2006, 6:05PM

I hear your point but the flaw in your argument is that heterosexism that exist in this country comes from the Protestant ethnic and from the colonizers. It was Europeans who wrote the first sodomy laws in this country. This came from Christianity and this was taught to my Black and Native American ancestors. In West Africa, and other parts of Africa homosexuality was accepted among most tribes. If it was not it was definitely practiced. Most Native American tribes accepted homosexuality and thought of gender very differently than Europeans.

saint james
November 1 2006, 6:45PM

S25 This is what we have in common. I am also Black (mother) and Native American (father). You make sweeping statements about Africa's acceptance of homosexuality. The reality is that it was more tolerated than accepted. There were entire villages comprised of males who lived and adorned themselves as women in certain nations. Northern Africa seemed more "accepting" of transgendered people than West Africa (at least according to my study). Transgendered women were not so accepted and it was less tolerated (bias against women?) In Africa they lived separately in their own villages. Asians and America's Native peoples, did accept the fact of homosexuality but that is a far cry from embracing it. In fact in many cases it was believed that gay people, particularly men had special spiritual powers. Adding mythology to try and makes sense of it? My point is you can't blame gay bias on the Europeans alone. The Puritans wrote the first sodomy laws. Gay people have never had it easy anywhere.

Stuffed Animal
November 1 2006, 6:48PM

The flaw in your argument is your failure to acknowledge that heterosexism has existed and exists in many cultural traditions, including some African and Native American nations. Bigotry was practiced against Lesbians and Gay men in the United States long before the White man landed. Also, heterosexism could be found in ancient Islam and Judaism, faiths that are older than Christianity. Christians, Jews and Muslims share the blame for perpetuating anti-Gay sentiment, as do Black, White, Red and Brown people. I don't care who wrote the first sodomy laws in North America. They didn't invent the hatred. I don't believe in pointing fingers at others and saying "look what you made me do!" Even if we could legitimately blame White people for teaching us our prejudices, would that excuse us for having them? Don't we still need to acknowledge and correct our own bad behavior?

s25
November 1 2006, 9:19PM

But Blacks and Natives do not have the ultimate power on this land it is Europeans. They constructed the laws about homosexuality in this country. Yes prior to colonization they were some Native and Africa tribes that did not accept homosexuality, however they were some tribes that did. Nothing was monolithic and binary until Europeans came.

DRE
November 2 2006, 1:32AM

I am from colorado springs, been to that church before and have friends that go there on a regular basis. Its sad that he resigned but in that same leap a great thing that he is standing up for what is right and not what society has deemed to be what is not considered an inormailty. This society, this nation was built off of lie and deceit and has taught through years to fear what we don't understand and to reject that which is not seem fitting of every single rule and regulation or spoken taboo that has been formulated. Fear of reality is what strikes a chord of response in people and the rejection of that fear is also the same thing that keeps this country and its people in particular black, african american or however you see it in a place of stagnation.

IndaATLien
November 2 2006, 2:39AM

Respectfully, there are some erroneous and misleading statements in your writing brother Keith. 1) The church is not responsible for people dying of AIDS...carelessness and wreckless behavior is responsible. NO ONE CAN BLAME THE CHURCH, regardless if the church is talking about it or not. The church does not have to talk 2 me about sexual diseases to know they exist and should I make poor sexual choices, then I am subject to exposure. 2) The church WILL NOT CEASE TO OPERATE as you state if GLB were to leave. EVERYONE IN CHURCH IS NOT GAY..AS A MATTER OF FACT, GLB'S are a minority. 3) Lets stop playing the victim and blaming others for our lack of solidarity and mobilization. Being in church changed my life, so I refuse to let one dog the church. Yes, there are issues in the church, I agree, but what organization doesn't have issues. As long as we are human, falabilities and weaknesses will exist. In the end, I feel sorry for Reynolds, he only served himself an injustice.....thru his emotions.

Stuffed Animal
November 2 2006, 9:06AM

Europeans' response to homosexuality has no more been monolithic than people of color's response has been. You seem to be obsessed with White People and their power, and you also seem to think they exist in a vacuum. I've already told you that European Christians did not invent heterosexism. It existed on the African continent in the ancient world. It existed on the Asian continent. It existed in pre-Colonial North America. Are we to believe that if White Puritans hadn't written North American anti-Gay laws, such laws would never have been written? I beg to differ. Antipathy toward Lesbians and Gay men is not dependent on race or religion. Nonwhite peoples aren't children, and they aren't robots connected to the White man's remote control box. They have the ability to understand that prejudice is wrong, and the responsibility to act with compassion toward their homosexual brethren.

s25
November 2 2006, 1:33PM

Your argument again is flawed because Indigenous people of this land, in Africa, and in Asia did not write laws in this country regarding homosexuality. The laws that are on this land regarding homosexuality are by colonizers.

Yes, ethnocentrism, patriarchy to some extent,and prejudices toward homosexuals but it was not monotholic and different not institutional like we have in states. I suggest you read Audrey Lorde because she often discuss how Europeans contruction laws and norms in binary ways. You never heard me say that there was no form of oppression before colonization.

Racism, sexism, and heterosexism in the framework of the United States came from the colonizers. Remember, it was the colonizers who constructed America, and the Constitution and the laws within on Indigenous peoples land. It was not Indigenous people again who constructed sodomy laws!

s25
November 2 2006, 2:43PM

Lets say your argument is right and lets say all Black people and Black chruch accept homosexuality and different expressions of gender. If we still have laws in this country that are constructed by the colonizers that are heterosexist than it would really do us no good as far as macro level or institutionally that Black folks are not homophobic! Sure emotionally and on micro level it would definitely help us that there is no homophobia in our communities. However,in the end of the day, the White House and the Courts has the power institutionally to change the laws in regards to heterosexusm that exist in this country. Remember, the colonizers form the laws regarding, sexuality gender norms, racial laws marriage,etc in the this country!!

Stuffed Animal
November 2 2006, 2:43PM

Okay, now I see what game you're playing here: Shoehorning a global, cross-cultural issue with ancient origins into the geographical and historical confines of the United States. Repeating the same old arguments, no matter what anybody says in refutation. Refusing to address the issue that, at any given time, individuals are responsible for their own behavior. Meanwhile, we move farther away from the original topic (the courageous gesture of Rev. Ben Reynolds), and closer to an ego-driven back-and-forth that will quickly become boring. You can play that game with somebody else. Sayonara!

AJ
November 2 2006, 3:04PM

What is with this continuous reference to 'the white man' did this,'the white man' does that.Just like black people,for example,the stereotypical 'thug','the white men' are not all the same.Perhaps we can see that some black people are just as capable of generalisation,finger pointing and discrimination as are some white peple.What i'm basically tryin to say is that we are all the same regardless of the colour of our skin.
Also,blaming Europeans collectively for all african woes is again a big generalisation.There has bin no other nationality or race more subjected to European slave masters than Europeans themselves.European aristocracy enslaved africans,europeans,asians etc,not europeans collectively.European aristocracy probably accounted for 0.1% of the European popultaion,probably less!There r no black slavery decendants in Europe.Ther wer enough poor white peple here to enslave

Mel Smith
November 2 2006, 3:39PM

Stuffed Animal, I respect what you said about us as black gay people and how we actually rode the back of the bus and faced disrcimination because of our skin color. But, from my understanding the Europeans introduced homophobia to many of the African tribes.

Derrick from PHilly
November 2 2006, 3:49PM

Stuffed Animal and s25:
You both make strong arguments with historical evidence to back up your points of view. There were cultures all over the world that accepted various of types of homosexuality, and those that condemned it. It is very important for people of African descent to know that their anti-homosexual/anti-transgender mindset may not have been held by their African ancesters. They need to stop that "there was no homosexuality in Africa 'till the white man got there" shit.

One of you speaks from passion, the other, a common sense perspective. I aint gonna' say which is which, or who.

s25
November 2 2006, 4:31PM

Most of the homophobia in Black America and the Caribbean, and Africa, today is by European influence and colonization and definitely Christianity the colonizers introduced. Christianity has influenced and corrupted large numbers of people of color across the globe as well as other organized religions. My argument from the onset is Black folks need to challenge Christianity. How can Black folks in America expected to explain sexuality, or culture with a religion that was forced to them by the slave master? I am not saying that people should not be Christian or Islam everyone has a free will. However, I have issues when people fundamentally try to use Christianity as justification for everything in our communities. My question has always been why are we looking for acceptance in the form of Christianity that colonize us?

saint james
November 2 2006, 6:29PM

It is always difficult to hear someone say "in Africa". Where in Africa? What nation(s) in Africa? Northern Africa? Southern Africa? West Africa? East Africa? Each region as well as every sub-set of people had languages, dialects, social customs, norms, taboos, beliefs, gods, etc. Africa was and is not a monolithic people. They did not all have the same approach to anything ALL the time. Christianity was practiced in Ethiopia long before the white man came to colonize. The Book (I'm almost afraid to say the other word) does not claim to be a white man's book. Nor was it written by white men. As I see it the issue is not Christianity or something else but rather how will Christianity/the Church deal with present day issues in our own communities. The church is still the strongest institution black folk have. There are people of color in every known religion. A'int nobody forcing nobody to do nothing today.

Mel Smith
November 2 2006, 7:13PM

Trust me, I don't think we should attack Christianity either. We should be asking heterosexual black folks the following: how come you guys can free yourselfs from the slavery Bible passages but we can't free ourselves from the homosexual Bible passages, which don't have anything to do with the God we believe in? Ask the same question to black heterosexual women too. See, folks are not going to appreciate their religion being attacked by us or anyone.

saint james
November 2 2006, 9:36PM

If the detractors of the Bible who assert that the Book is a white man's book that promotes a white man's religion would only gaze at a true geographical map;not the one they showed us in elementary school where North America is as large as Africa (Now that's a white man's lie). Israel and the lands of the Bible are not in Europe but in Asiatic Africa. Asia and Africa. The people there are tan, brown to black skinned people. Cush (Ethiopia) is mentioned many times in scripture. The Jews came out of Egypt as a "mixed multitude", intermarried with Egyptians, Midianites (blacks), etc. YOU HAVE SWALLOWED THE LIE YOURSELF! Romans (Europeans) did't get to Egypt until 600 bc. Europeans stifled the history of the people of the Book but that does make the Book a White man's book. People of Color in that region were multi-lingual and not biased against others merely based on hue. The Islamic nations descend from the same folk as the original Hebrews. All "colored" people. Semitic and Hamitic people are not white.

Mel Smith
November 2 2006, 11:58PM

I agree. That is why I was not attacking Christianity. But from my understanding and educational research, plenty of African regions/tribes were not homophobic. During colonialism, the Europeans introduced anti gay prejudice to the whole continent of Africa. Scholar Will Roscoe wrote a book about homosexuality in Africa, Muslim and Native American regions.

s25
November 3 2006, 7:36AM

I am not attacking Christianity but the version of it taught to us by our slavemasters difference

s25
November 3 2006, 10:35AM

This version of Christianity is oppression. Oppression to people of color, women, and homosexuals. I agree with you Mel Smith! I have no problem with folks of color being Christian but take the oppressive elements of Christianity away from the Black chruch. Homosexuals should not be responsible for the heterosexism in the Black chruch. There needs to be conversation in the Black Christian community if it was wrong for the colonizers to justify slavery by the Bible than it wrong to justify sexism, and heterosexism by using the Bible. The Black chruch needs to realize their becoming like their colonizers when they justify oppression by religion. The colonizers justify slavery, Native American genocide, sexism, and heterosexism using the Christianity and Eurocentricism in America.

saint james
November 3 2006, 11:12AM

Fundamentally, I am not in disagreement with either Mel or S25. My point is that to mislabel Christianity as a white man's religion is absurd based of actual evidence. Yes there most certainly needs to be dialogue but the truth is that the church did not change its stance on slavery, per se. The government did and it took an act of war to bring that about. The majority of the church will never change its stance on its view of homosexuality. Why rail against the church? The church gave birth to abolitionists so did the secular conscience of non-churched people. The same is true as it relates to civil rights in this nation. Racist churches did not change their stance and many have not still. The battle was won in the courts. The church led the way in many instances.

saint james
November 3 2006, 12:55PM

There also needs to be an understanding of the Black Christian Community. They (we) are also diverse in opinion, view of scripture, interpretation, continuing understanding (revelation) etc,. There are extreme conservatives, conservatives, moderates, liberals and christian cults. There will never be across the board agreement within the church, black or otherwise. That's a good thing; it keeps a certain tension and discussion amongst people of faith. As I see it it is futile to try and make someone agree with you against their will. The courts will decide if bigotry against the GLBT community is legal or not. The USA is not the Kingdom of God as many Christians believe. The church will have its right to operate within their belief system based on a separtation of Church and State. I think the day when the church operates without tax from this country are nearly over. The church may have to choose between doctrine and money. Can you say God vs Mammon? Say Amen, somebody!

Mel Smith
November 4 2006, 9:10AM

I live in the black community and I think we would also benefit from challenging the hypocrisy of our family members and the community. We are already winning some battles in the court but we have to remember that most of us live in the black community and a few of us face discrimination by our own family members. Therefore, we must also question their ignorance as well. The chuch is in the black community and that is where I live. I will challenge the government and the ignorance in my community. When you are fighting ignorance, you fight it on all fronts. I will not ignore being attack by people who are my own neighbors and blood family members.

bemused
November 5 2006, 5:44PM

Seriously you have been bamboozled christianity is for fools and any person of African descent reads and believes that book will die ignorant.

the book translated and published by people with a vested interest in keeping the status quo. If the book was beneficial and uniting do you think we would have ever seen it? Maybe there is a unifying book and these people wrote the exact opposite.

Do you not think in their Masonic lodges and private rooms they laugh at the people who believe the story? The people who own land and have money like things as they are

To quote desmond tutu

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.

And yet he still wears their dog collars and promotes their cause what a fool, like those who follow him.

I have no respect for any of them

ekd
November 6 2006, 1:05AM

i have known benjamin reynolds since i was a kid. i remember when he became a minister at 14. he always had an elegant aire about him and i loved him to death because he always treated me greatly. however although that picture of him is nice, and the story sounds good, there are some facts you should know.

1. the church knew early on that he was gay and they let him remain pastor.
2. the Emmanual has never turned anyone one away that was gay/lesbian trans gendered even before reynolds became pastor.
3. no one had asked him to leave. he resigned, however he knew it was coming, not because he was gay- he is using that as a smoke screen as i said we all KNEW. he was however in trouble and was being held accountable for his mishandling church business. when he took over as pastor, the church had no mortgage, $270,000.00 in the bank and a scholarship fund. now the church is mortgaged, almost$300,000.00 in debt, no scholarship money and we owe the irs. he did that.

saint james
November 6 2006, 4:55PM

To Bemused: I think you should called yourself Befuddled.
If someone used a spoon to pop out your eye would you never eat soup again? You use a quote of Desmond Tutu. What he said was correst yet he has not thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Prophet Chris Woodfork
November 7 2006, 10:40AM

Hello, to all of God's wonderful people! I am a Gay black minister! I have been put & let down by so many... so called preachers, that are only behind the pullpit for money & fame anyway! I am here to tell you that the same law which is the "Jewish Holiness Code" speaks on a whole lot of things, For example here are just a few: It
permits polygamy
prohibits sexual intercourse when a woman has her period,
bans tattoos
prohibits eating rare meat
bans wearing clothes that are made from a blend of textiles
prohibits cross-breeding livestock
bans sowing a field with mixed seed
prohibits eating pigs, rabbits, or some forms of seafood
requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath.

But yet & still we are the bad one's lol! Gay/Peculiar people remember that we are all chosen and sit aside for God's on personal use for us! REMEMBER everybody can't stay under the blood of Jesus Christ. I'm gone end this before I began to preach. The William Brothers said it best "sweep around your own front door"

Milton L. Machen
November 8 2006, 2:36PM

The Bottom line is Black gays need to come out and be visible! That is the point that Keith is trying to make here! Nothing is going to change unless we as gay black men and women put a face to this maddness. The bit of freedom that blacks share today came about by standing up and fighting back! We all know the story! Please tell me how things are going to change for gays espeicailly black gays, if we continue to sit back and do nothing out of fear? Personlly, every wall I can break through I do so! If you can't stand up and be counted you are a loser, nothing will ever change! When does this crap stop?

saint james
November 8 2006, 4:13PM

I wonder if Rev. Reynolds did the same thing as Jim McGreevey. Did he comeout as a way to avoid attention to a corrupt administration?

bemused
November 11 2006, 3:39PM

saint james your hostility exposes your ignornce and clichés are for people who cannot think for themselves.

if you truly believe that the people who stole africans land could bring any good (ie that book) then i can't help you and you better pray there is a god cause you will need all the help you can get
good day to you sir

saint james
November 14 2006, 3:01PM

Bemused,

That was not a cliche. It was a word picture. For real hostility please check your previous post. You are certainly not one to advise on clear thought or ignorance.

s25
November 15 2006, 10:30AM

Visiability is a whole bunch of B.S. You can not make everyone be out and who defines what being out is? Things are not going to challenge for folks of color until the challenge the oppression within Christianity and religion as a whole period!

Louis
November 15 2006, 5:22PM

Once you walk out of the dark you can bask in the rays of the light. This brother will find many doors will open for him because of his integrity and honesty. Takes a strong man to stand up for what is right, and a weak one to hide behind what is wrong. Love you Reverend Reynolds. You are truly inspirational!

James C. Wilson/denver
November 17 2006, 5:42AM

Unfortunately many of our churches are characterized by incredible fear and ignorance. Black pulpits across the country are literally chugged with uneducated ministers/pastors and self proclaimed religious leaders / teachers. Many of those who choose to denouce this wise and dynamic young man are miles and miles behind him, they pastor dinosaur churches and have ineffective ministry's. Education continues to be the key the days of declaring "I been called to peach" without properly preparing yourself is OVA ! go to school and learn correct biblical interpretation. The Sodom and Gommorah story has been misrepresented in our churches for years. I recently endured the WRONG account again on sunday "the city was not destroyed because of rampant homosexuality" as most would have us believe nowhere in the old or new Testaments is the sin of Sodom, the cause of it's sudden and terrible destruction, equated with homosexuals or with homosexuality. The attempted rape at lots door is not the subject of the story !

jcw
November 21 2006, 8:52PM

This is in response to ekd's post, it takes money to effectively run a church Emmanuel was a ratty tatty run down outdated mess from the pews to the 20 plus yr old choir robes. Be grateful you had Pastor Reynolds as he brought your country behinds into the 21st century ...helllo. Futhermore did you not have finance board and Deacon boards , shouldnt they be held responsible if monies was being used unwisely as well ?? Finally websites, ministries and just plain comfortable deceant worship facilities would not have been accomplished if it werent for Rev. Reynolds. GOD BLESS BENJAMIN JOB WELL DONE leave it to a lot of these ignorant people we'd all be in a one room shanty's hollerin and shoutin with dingy choir robes and busted up shoes on!!!

Julia Blair
November 25 2006, 11:40PM

I believe they probably dont accept that people are gay and lesbian in any church but that all should have an opportunity to learn. I think it is wrong because God wants all people to come to him. We could quarrel over the fact that I do believe homosexuality is wrong and that there is a hell but that is just my belief in what I percieved what I read. I do not know the complete heart of God's judgement on the matter and never want to choose to judge someone on this matter. So as much as I believe this I never also in return want someone to try to convince me that my belief is wrong.Because, I dont want to be a homosexual person. So there is no argument in convincing a church that what they read is not true if they beleive certain passages. However, as a feminist who believes in equality for women, I beleive in equality of black and all races and homosexuals. I think if a pastor is Gay and the church doesnt want to preach on this matter to cause strife in a church then he should not preach on this matter.

flappylips
November 26 2006, 11:25PM

I grew up in the Pentecostal Church in the 70's and in retrospect I cannot believe the amount of homosexuality that was so prevalent in my denomination at that time. As a teenager, many ministers made sexual advances toward me. Luckily, I was too naive to take them up on anything. I had my first gay experiences when I was much older, with gay men who were kind, respectful and understanding. Anyway, these same ministers came on to many attractive boys, like myself, yet preached against the very desires that were a natural part of who they were.

Unfortunately, this still goes on. I agree with Mr. Boykin's theory that this paradoxical approach to the natural order of life--by that I mean the range of sexual expression and orientation that human beings experience-- is deleterious to African Americans. I cannot tell you the amount of black men who have been infected with HIV who have died because they were so ashamed of their orientation that they did not seek treatment early. The madness needs to stop.

preacherman, jr
November 30 2006, 3:14AM

I didn't have the pleasure of reading everyone's arguments but I believe I got the idea, the only problem is I don't agree with them in standing up in a church and proclaiming something against its values. That like the KKK trying to put endorsement commercials on BET. I'm not waiting for homosexuality to be accepted in the church, I pray against it. Church is not public forum, yes there are trends within the church that evolve with time, such as what some might wear, but when you start changing the principles it has you've asked for an orange to give you apple juice. "either you're for me or against me", the church is not in favor of homosexuality why should anyone expect it to be.

playboyadonis
December 3 2006, 1:03AM

That's why I don't go to church. Why pay your dues to a club that does not want you? Start your own thing if you can't be a part of something that already exists. Church is for followers not leaders.

Vincent
December 5 2006, 10:39PM

Just wondering
Does anybody consider any other religion?

Christianity is actually forced among black people after their own religons were destroyed or denied by the white masters.

Maybe there's other way out of this "Church vs Gay"?

Find a tolerent religion, more spiritual, maybe Eastern religions?

Asian society actually treated Gay much nicer than the West before the church went there, too.

J
December 14 2006, 12:09AM

Has anyone even read and understood the bible for what it is worth? We all go to church and listen to interpretations and sermons on this and that, but the overall summery of the book is that humans are an imperfect creation and we would have long been destroyed had it not been for God giving us the opportunity to show that we can lead and govorn ourselves and since it is obvious that humans can and will not do this we have been given a savior, in Jesus to allow human to survive destruction. Have we forgotten that we are here by grace? As we go about our live debating homosexuality and heterosexism remember the role of the church and the bible is to remind us that we are all imperfect. We get judgemental because as humans leading humans we do not have very many means of expressing our constant state of imperfections. We can blame the White man for this and that, but really our issue is how we uplift all people towards God and his vision of what his creation's intended purpose was...Family

Billy
December 19 2006, 10:58AM

Let me first start by giving props to my younger brother. I have always admired and looked to him for his strength and wisdom. I now commend him for his bravery and courage. His strong beliefs and God lead Ministry will grow even in this narrow minded society that feels the only way to over come oppression is to oppress. We open ourselves to believe what has been forced on us through time and any attempt to oppose this view or offer an alternative is rejected without consideration. Who is to say that a man that not only knows who he is but WHOSE he is can not and will not lead. Benjamin’s message today is the same as it was when he entered the pulpit. The problem? We listen but we do not hear!