All The Wrong Places?

yusef
May 3 2006, 8:55AM

Hey Keith, first let me say it makes me laught when stories or headlines blast upon the scene...like cocoboyz or flavalife scandal...i'm thinking to myself should this be new news to anyone with brains....I would bet that every last one of those guys are positive/and or hustlers/homeless...it seems to be the way of the young gay black/latino guys...as for the bathhouse/gym sexual escapades that is old as dirt..but i would guess its a combination of the rush of gettin caught and the high level of testosterone in enclosed spaces...and the many many different men to choose from....but i dont think there is ONE answer...but i know that sexual addiction seems to be at a all time high especially in the younger african american generation...and the "business" men are always ready and willing to exploit that.

Texas76132
May 3 2006, 10:04AM

I went to a bathhouse once a few years ago. I did hook-up with a male nurse who showed me what to lookout for. Even though I enjoyed my time with him, I found the experience to be humiliating and never went again. Fortunately, the floor was poop-free.

MadProfessah
May 3 2006, 12:24PM

I'm sure Keith, Martha Stewart and I would agree on one thing: Human fecal matter on the floor is never an acceptable way to greet "guests"! *giggle*

As for bathhouses, I have never been in one, in the continental United States, so I won't comment on the rest of your post. As for the public sex thing, I plead the 5th!

Harry F
May 3 2006, 12:58PM

Hey Keith,

Me in Dc again....

I'm not a patron of bathhouses or that scene. Nor do I takes "Showers" at the gym (where many peple take 45 minutes showers...how dirty have you got to be?). But maybe there are a few reasons people like sex or j/o or whatever in these places.

1. You are an expert on the "DL" (like you book) and there are some guys that won't set footin a "Gay' club or identify themselves as gay but they do go to the gym. Easy to explain to the wife. "Honey, I'm going to the gym...I'll be back in three hours". Of course the wife encourages him going as well because the body lookin right. So the gym is familiar and acceptable.

2. As you said, I think the thrill of Living Dangerously. Doing something naughty and getting away with it.

3. Not all men but many...and particularly "DL" (for lack of better word) stray away from committment. A relationship requires committment, time and energy. These interactions are quick, and uncommitted. I bet most of the time they don't even know each others name...nor care to know....in fact it may be better that they don't know.

4. In light of deseases and such you would think common sense would provail. But if common sense provailed in this country would people stll smoke, over eat, and spend every dime they make on a Prada bag

My two cents.

Jason
May 3 2006, 12:59PM

Today's article led me to ask questions.....

Does my generation even care about consequences?

Also, just seeing how certain gay scenes have changed over the years, I question if my generation honestly have an interest in sexual education? Do we even consider that some of our reactions are because of addictions and negative. Do we feel that we are invisible to anything happening to us.

I am thankful for the people that were in my surroundings when coming out. They actually spoke to me about my decisions and educated me on consequences and precautions.

Now that's an article for you.... are most seasoned peeps in the community trying to get a nut or actually being a positive influence.

Ron Lee
May 3 2006, 2:06PM

Keith I really believe these are the people you and your organization should be challenging. These are the same guys who would get involved with some one without revilling their + pos stastus. There should definitely be a campaign to close bath houses and to encourage gay men to come out the closet with their + pos status to their gay brothers and potenial lovers.

Gordon
May 3 2006, 2:13PM

I had a friend in the Airforce who use to freqeunt the baths over seas, and that is where he assumably caught HIV/AIDS(He really don't know where he caught it).He told me that he would allow different guys to take turns plowing him back to back. Because he was in the service and in a different country (Germany), he could not come back into this country until they found out what "strand" of the disease he had.

In my personal opinion, those that frequent these places are well aware of the consequences, as well as the chances of steppin in somebody else's Sht..LOL, and catching diseases. Nowadays, people don't catch deadly STD's by chance unless they are cognitively impaired, deaf, dumb and stupid.

whoissean
May 3 2006, 2:18PM

I find it funny that everyone who has commented, first state they have never been to a bathhouse. Stop lying. I swear if we were all so damn virginal and self-righteous HIV would be declining instead of increasing. Or maybe everyone who comments on KeithBoykin.com are prudes.

The problem I have with black gay men is their lack of honesty. I’ve been to the bathhouse plenty of times in many different cities. and I’ve been to the Crew Club, I think it's one of the cleanest bathhouses I know besides Steamwork in Chicago.

Bathhouse are more black than they portray them to be, but what’s new about white establishment not putting black gay men in their advertisements.

I admit, I did once see shit on the floor at one bathhouse in Texas, (the Spa, the maze part, just dirty old white men acting out). But overall, my bathhouse experiences have been sane. The black gay bathhouse, are usually worn down “hole in the walls” vs. the predominate white bathhouse which are immaculate. But what’s new about that.

Unprotected sex isn't a location, but a state of mind. Bathhouse is a quick way to get off with no strings attached. You don't have to have unprotected sex. But the truth is, a lot of people with low self-esteem, sexual addiction, drug users, alcoholics, do frequent the bathhouse, it's the dirty truth of gay culture, that men want to have fun without worrying about the consequences. I see it at the gay clubs, bars, on the internet, lurking on the train, in dark corners. But what’s new about that.

Is it wrong? Or is it choice? Not everybody can be saved. And not everybody wants to be saved. the key is to protect yourself. But I find a lot of black gay men are cowards. they don't know how to not have unprotected sex, because they don't know how to say what it is that they want. If he says, you gotta wear a condom, he must be playing games, or not being cool. It’s hard to tell a brotha to put on a condom, because immediately he gets an attitude, sometimes it makes for a uncomfortable situation, it makes you feel confrontational. It's the fear of loss and rejection.

The "DL" which was my generation silenced a lot of black men and they still don't know how to speak up for themselves. The infatuation with the "DL" made a lot of black men weak. It's so ironic, it was all about hardness and masculinity which lead to "don't tell nobody my business" which lead to "I ain't telling nobody my business" which lead to "nobody asking any questions." don't want confrontation. That's my opinion. I still struggle. Every time I have sex or look for sex, I feel like I’m going to war. It’s discouraging. Why must it be so damn hard! And not in the good way.

Derrick from Philly
May 3 2006, 2:47PM

Straight men would have just as much irresponsible sex as gay men do if they could, only women won't let them.

steve
May 3 2006, 3:06PM

Why does it seem that homosexuality is so preoccupied with sex? Every single gay magazine, black AND white, has sexual content somewhere within the pages. Even 'The Advocate' which is supposed to be the gay answer to serious heterosexual news and culture magazines, has a pull out section devoted to strippers and escorts and gay sex chatlines.

The Washington Blade, an otherwise serious newspaper based in D.C., also has a section for escorts and 900 sex numbers. Go into any gay bookstore and you'll find, along with novels, an entire newsstand packed with pornographic magazines.

For every 1 herterosexual sex chat line, there seems to be 10 gay sex chat lines.

Even serious, well-informed blogs, such as this one and Rod 2.0, while offering substantive material, also maintain a running conversation involving sex and pornography. Why does there have to be an admission of sex? Is it not possible for us as homosexuals to have dialogue and create art without having to resort to sex? Are we not able to? Or are we just wired that way and can't help it?

Case in point: Keith has a short review of a magazine called 'BabyBoy.' He mentions that within the pages there are profiles written about two porn stars. And he says it so matter-of-factly as if speaking about a workout routine to be found on one of the pages.

And therein lies the rub: In the homosexual community it's OK to open your favorite cultural magazine, flip through the pages and read about perhaps an art exhibit, a new recipee, an article about how to manage your money, and interviews with pornstars. Something is wrong with that.

Are homosexuals out-of-control sexual predators as a rule? Maybe, in the womb, when our brains were somehow altered, perhaps our appetite for sex was magnified. Is this a condition that we cannot control?
Is it our fate to be fuck machines and then die?

We are fixated on sex to an unhealthy degree.

Luddite
May 3 2006, 3:47PM

Kudos to "whoissean" for one of the bests posts I have read here on Keith's board. Especially:

"every time I have sex or look for sex, I feel like I'm going to war".

Sean, you have just perfectly described my past 8 years here in the metro DC area. Even going on adam4adam is like going to war. You have to have your suit of (emotional) armor on before you even get to put the condom on.

Lito S.
May 3 2006, 3:47PM

Steamworks in Berkeley was always clean when I visited frequently in my younger days. I never saw poo poo on the floor, although I have seen people slide in boy goo.

Jeff Hobbs
May 3 2006, 3:51PM

So I'm not missing anything?? :) I have yet to go to one and actually have sex. I tried one in Portland Oregon one time and it felt so dark and dreary. Didn't turn me on at all!LOL The guys weren't all that either. Sounds more like desperation. I'd rather order some to go online!:) Have it delivered. You don't even have to tip!:)

shabaka
May 3 2006, 3:53PM

This is just a response to Steve...below.
Post: "Posted by steve at May 3, 2006 03:06 PM"

I don't think we as gay men are any more fixated to sexual expression than straight people are.
We just happen to be living in a society that's extremely sexually repressive that anything pertaining to sex portrays us as nothing but perverts. I don't know if you have access to European media (tv, newspapers,etc) but you'd be amazed how sexually expressive they are.
Just a thought!

Gordon
May 3 2006, 4:13PM

To: Whoissean,

Believe it or not, there are some of us who have not visited a bath house before. Another truth about black gay life is that a lot of us do not suffer from low self esteem, sex addictions, drug use and alcoholism. Just because you go, and the bath house is often associated with negativity simply does not give you the right to include others in that type of behavior. Nor does it qualify you to say that we are not being truthful because we choose not to participate in a place where risky sexual behavior is rampant.

There are so many brothers who believe and feed into the stereotype that being gay is all about sex, risky behavior, clubs, drugs, etc. And if you chose not to participate in those type of behaviors not mentioned that most people feel that are common with black gay life, you are not being truthful to yourself.

Being truthful to yourself is being self confident enough to know that there are different strokes for different folk. And just because a person chose not to participate in what others do does not mean that they are not being truthful.

For those that like the bath house, good. But for me, I choose to explore my sexual fantasy's in other ways..

Zeus
May 3 2006, 4:14PM

They should all be closed especially in black/latino areas. These type of facilites encourage unsafe unprotected sex and I'm glad that I've never had the need to go there.

steve
May 3 2006, 5:00PM

Message to Shabaka:

Food for thought. Upon posting my comment I wondered aloud that perhaps it is I who has the issue as I might find myself shackled to the mores of a sexually repressed society as you stated in your post. This could be true. There is always room for more discovery.

Chris Monroe
May 3 2006, 6:44PM

I think you're asking pretty dumb questions. How would you clean up a sex club? People go there for the convenience, anonymity and sometimes squalor of it. You're too smart to not understand.

Oso Raro
May 3 2006, 6:59PM

Complicated phenomena here, the story and comment thread. People have unsafe sex for a lot of different and complex reasons. Bathhouses retain their "Masque of Red Death" reputation from the beginning of the HIV crisis, but unsafe sex happens everywhere sex does, including upscale bedrooms of the bourgeoisie. Part of this discussion seems almost purely aesthetic, as in, "Ew, dirty!" Which in and of itself is deeply rooted in homophobia and sexphobia in general.

Bathhouses are like cocks, every one unique in its own way, but with similarities that would be hard to misrecognise. Poop on the floor, well, who knows? Anal sex does involve, um, the anus, and some folks are actually *into* that. But the accordian like collapse of these things into death, disease, bad choices, self-hate is a little too easy. Human sexuality, and the reasons why people do what they do, are too complicated to resort to simplistic algebraic equations that may sound reassuring, but don't hold up to the dynamism of human desire (all folks, not just LGBT people).

That said, I think the work of Walt Odets is trying to understand some of this. We all know how to stay negative, or protect others if we're positive. Why we choose not to is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

John Dennis
May 3 2006, 7:17PM

From my experience bathhouses and animoous sex is a way of life for some of us. I just seem to find that a lot of brotha's whom one day feel as though they have been raped morally and exploited . and realize that the animous sex is not the answer for total completeness. It leaves you very used and empty. I have numerous friends who have patronized these places all over the world. All have one thing in common. They regret it from AMSTERDAM TO RIO DE JANIERO they feel as though it was meaningless sex. Most go through a severe depression then a celibate period. They always wonder if that great unanimous sex was worth the POSITIVE HIV test.

jazzi
May 3 2006, 7:38PM

In a way I do agree with Steve. I enjoy sex as much as anyone else but it does seem to over saturate almost anything pertaining to gays. The pride parades would be a great example of this. While I shamelessly admit I enjoy looking at them, I've often wondered what scantily clad & in some cases completely naked men have to do with gay pride? Again, great eye candy but where's the connection? And how in the hell do they get away with running down Christopher Street like that with cops standing near by?

cmoney
May 3 2006, 9:04PM

Lay off the boys! Haven't you all ever seen "Sex and the City", read "Essence", "Cosmopolitan" or "Hustler" or "Playboy"? Straight people have anonymous sex all the time, go to strip clubs, whore houses and pick up prostitutes (which is legal in someplaces). I'm not saying indiscriminate sex is OK just because heteros do it, but why should we be held to a different standard? If you close the bathhouses, people will do it at the gym, or the park or at a sex party or in a bathroom or anywhere else you can think of. Sexuality is what differentiates us from the rest of the world. If you don't like the bathhouse scene, don't go. If you do go--watch your step!

shabaka
May 4 2006, 12:55AM

Amen, "Oso Raro"...I couldn't have said it better! Also Steve I agree with you that the more exposed to something (more and more discoveries) the more banal(trivial) it becomes.I think it's more of a culture thing than anything else.
I also have to confess...Everytime i take a trip to a bathouse...I come out feeling empty and used and dirty. I guess that's what "cheap" sex does to one's self-esteem.

Steve
May 4 2006, 8:10AM

This is the "other" Steve talking - different guy.

I've never been to a bath house, and never will. I'm appalled that they exist in an age where anonymous sex can literally be deadly. While I know a lot of men who have frequented baths over the years, and I don't break off friendship with them, their activities do affect my perceptions of them. I would never date someone I know goes to the bath houses. Maybe over time that would indeed cause a friendship to fail. It has been my observation that most of my friends who have contracted AIDS have been among that bath house going crowd. And among my friends who do not, or would never, go to a bath house, the incidence of AIDS has been much lower.

I don't think it's a coincidence that AIDS infections decreased during the time the bath houses were closed, and since they were allowed to reopen, infections have been on the rise.

Let's get real. These places are dangerous not just to individual health, but to the health of our community. I'll probably be attacked for saying so, but so is the person who says "We should ban smoking" when speaking to a crowd of smokers.

There is no way to separate sex from homosexuality. Our sexual preferences and predilictions are what defines us. That doesn't mean that we have to be denizens of a bath house. It doesn't mean we have to have unprotected sex in anonymous places. If we allow our status as a minority to cause us to seek such places because they feel safe, we don't really have much pride, do we?

It does't surprise me that a lot of people who read this blog don't frequent bath houses. I've found a lot of literate critical thinkers don't. That's not to say that only the unintelligent go, but maybe us nerdy, introverted intellectual types are just not comfortable with the bath house scene.

Signed "The Other Steve"

Charles
May 4 2006, 8:42AM

Everyone can stand back and say, I do not go to bathhouses. I do not have unprotected sex, etc. The truth is as we show are disgust and shame to others about this, individuals know what to say and what not to say when meeting someone. We all know what we think about those who go so we do not share that information with anyone. It becomes our dirty little secret. It is funny that we expect immediate and unwavering acceptance from the straight world and we do not give it return.

There is a conservative gay community and we do not voice ourselves. We do exist and we do not align our views with those that are more liberal. I constantly get stares for saying that "people cruising in public parks should be arrested". This is not a popular view but it is mine. We do not share the truth only enough to keep us in good standing with the community. Where is the gay protest to close bathhouses, does anyone want to get this started. Where is the protest amongest “conservative” blacks to curb the "thug lifestyle". It is not there because once you are black or gay there are some things that you can not say.

1. I find the story written in the Blade to be a lie. I say where is the picture (or the letter from the health department), I no longer go with what someone says as people tend to lie in order to make themselves visible or invisible. Now I am sure this is a problem to some degree but come on people. The most complaints I have heard out loud are; where are the hot men? All the men were so old and out of shape.

2. Of course Black men go to the bathhouses; they are there as much as the White men. Why this big surprise Keith. You have lived in New York and DC, surely you are not that clueless or do your friends simply not tell you as you take a seat on your throne.

3. Unsafe is going to happen; it is not based upon the conditions of the bathhouse. It will happen whenever and wherever 2 people get together and decide what they will or will not do. I mean look at Africa and many other countries. No bathhouses and yet high HIV rates. More unsafe sex happens in the bedroom than the bathhouse, it is just a mathematical fact.

4. The "gay community" has tons of "parties" white, black, red and blue. There are tons of drug usage and unsafe sex there. Is anyone going to close them down as they are run by white straight men for the most part?

yusef
May 4 2006, 10:29AM

Y'all intellectualls kiil me with this BS....you remind me of a friend of mine (very close friend) and we have had this argument over the years...it goes like this...he thinks that because I have been to the crew club, follies, malcomn x park, and so forth...that he is "better than me and others who from the same circle of friends has been to those places"...but yet he pulls "trade" in from the street and takes them home and does the same thing with them as "those who frequent about named places" do...so what is the difference...NONE. Bottom line is you could close every bath house, bookstore, shut down every sex party in country and close all the parks after dark....people do what they want, when they want and how they want...none of this in new....If you think the recent "raid" of cocoboyz dorm is the end...think again...Men4Now and Adam4Adam is next....but again that wont stop the brothas who want to participate and enjoy whatever kind of sex(bareback, threesome, orgy or fisting, watersports whatever) they want to participate in...I know most will throw up with my following statement but anyway....those of you who remember the "just say no" slogan of the 80s for the so called war on drugs...guest what it didnt work...why...PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT...so that being said...HIV IS HERE TO STAY...why...PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT....simple...point blank...case closed.

Derrick from Philly
May 4 2006, 11:07AM

Poop on the floor. That nasty bitch couldn't make it to a toilet. Out in Gay Acres (Philly's version of Malcolm X & Prospect Park) there was no worse feeling than stepping on somebody's poopoo. If it was a dog's or a raccoon's,OK. But not no nasty human poopoo. That's why I say, y'all look down on us "queens", but y'all need to learn our booty hygiene rituals before y'all head to the bath houses, parks, all night movie theater 'n shit.

steve
May 4 2006, 12:33PM

Well I guess I'm doing this 'gay' thing wrong then. Because I have never been to a sex party, bath house, park, public restroom, theater, bar, gym, street or website in order to have sex. So am I still gay? Because it's beginning to seem like gay=sex and nothing more.

If i'm not fuk'n, am I still gay?

Years ago I told a brotha that I didn't refrequent clubs and that, as a rule, I don't engage in sex outside of a committed relationship. He gave me a startled look and said, "Are you sure you're gay?" This response was rather telling. Then he went on to say that he didn't believe me and that all gay men are sexual predators by nature of our sexuality.

So I am reminded of my original thought, "Does what makes us homosexual in the first place also imbue the majority of us with a predatory appetite for the frequent sexual conquest?

As homosexuals should we embrace this predilection for promiscuity as naturally as we view the act of anal sex? Do we embrace this fixation on indiscriminate sex because we have no choice otherwise? Is that the reality of homosexuality?

Derrick from Philly
May 4 2006, 12:48PM

Steve:

For God's sake. Of course you're gay. You're just mature and disinterested in sleezy sex. Many of the gay folks who come on this website have never engaged in real promiscuous sex. Y'all are all under 40, so y'all really don't know what it was like in the 1970s when one would have two hundred men or more per year. Now that I'm older(dammit!) a dingdong don't excite me like it use it--whether it's a real one or a rubber one...they both 'bout the same. The real one is just a lot damn trouble.

Pete
May 4 2006, 2:11PM

One word: eww. This is the kind of stuff I was terrified of being associated with when I was still discriminating against myself by being closeted. Now the associations are annoying but those who make them are morons.

Derrick from PHilly
May 4 2006, 5:23PM

Pete, you're right. Gay folks talk about sex (sometimes kinky sex) so easily amongst each other that we forget how some conservative/church folks use this stuff as amunition against us. But hell, the ones that condemn us the most are the ones who usually got some secret bizarre sexual practices themselves. I don't think that gay folks are as wild as we were thirty years ago, but then again I'm not "out there" anymore. Sometimes I think I deliberately drink too much on Saturaday nights so I can't get "out there" anymore. I wake up in the bath tub, but atleast I'm clean.

Oh, Keith, while you're down there in Puerto Rico, could you skip over to the Dominican Republic. Tell them boys, I mean, MEN (over eighteen)to not pay any mind to this illegal immigration shit. Come on up here, Papis. Tell them they have a friend in Pennsylvania. And there aint no doodoo on my floor--never, not even on a Saturday night. Vaya con dios, Amigo.

bball1lover
May 4 2006, 5:33PM

I t is disturbing to me to continue to hear people persecute others and sit on moral high horses. I t is also intresting to me that most people that do persecute are the one's that are truly disturbed and have mental issues. I thik we need to watch what we say and how we say it.We may be doing more damage to the very xommunity we call ourselves trying to help and enhance.

shabaka
May 4 2006, 6:26PM

Bande de puritains,vas!!
Seriously though. How could anyone be so concerned as to what mature men and women do in the privacy of their own homes or saunas? And y'all wonder why gay marriages are such a big issue in this part of the world. Because of American twisted morality of course!!
Live and let live,people...

Other Steve
May 4 2006, 10:39PM

Charles and Yusef: I couldn't agree more. You are both making essentially the same point I was attempting (poorly.) In fact, while sexuality is a big part of what defines HOMO-sexuality, one need not be a sleaze bag to be gay. Nor need one be an angst ridden hand-wringer about all that goes on around us.

What one must do is to THINK, exercise CAUTION, and live responsibly. Whether conservative, liberal, or somewhere in between is not important. It's all about LIVING amongst the rest of humanity, and not HIDING behind the doors of gay bath houses or any other cover. You know what, it's not needed. We can live quite happily, IN THE OPEN, with the partner of our choice, even in a red neck lumber town 30 miles from the nearest grocery store. If it can be done here, it can be done anywhere, including Washington, New York, Chicago, etc.

Other Steve
May 4 2006, 10:41PM

Oh. And I might add that I really don't care what consenting adults do behind closed doors, except to the extent that it becomes a public health hazard. I do care to NOT be part of it.

Equinox
May 4 2006, 11:59PM

My first boyfriend who had *Never* stepped foot inside of a gay bathhouse died of AIDS in the early nineties. I've been to a few bathhouses in my day and I'm still HIV-negative.

The Good part of the Baths: Working out in a gym free from straight men, their women, and their children.

The Bad part of the Baths: Hallways with televisions showing gay porn, and the "private" dressing rooms, both of which encourage gay men to have anonymous sex. If the baths were to get rid of these two elements, the sleaze factor would be reduced to an absolute minimum, leaving a breeder-free gym to workout in and a child-free pool to swim in.

Also, I've never seen poop on the floor of a gay bathhouse and I avoid the steam room and sauna areas, two more elements that encourage dangerous liasons. One-night stands are very low on my list of things to do. I go to the baths to escape drama, not to add to it.

whoisseanfan
May 5 2006, 9:31AM

I wholly agree with whoissean. I've always believed those involved in the HIV/AIDS crisis never seem to stop searching for a scapegoat, whether it be a person, place or thing. The fact is the "bathhouse" is not only a place, it's also a state of mind. Thanks to the Internet, men are freed from trolling in person and have the ease of sitting in their homes or offices, and bluntly stating what it is they are looking for, usually without mention of a condom or their HIV status. Many web sites are devoted to bareback sex. Many men on web sites get a specific thrill from turning their local gym showers into a bathhouse-like setting.

As for the gay marriage argument, most men I know -- gay, on the DL, or same-gender-loving -- DON'T WANT to have a relationship with a man, let alone fight for the right to get married as enjoyed by straight couples. And let's not forget, the bonds of "marriage" are no magic bullet that prevents one from straying. I have known more established (house; both names on the mailbox; adopting brats) gay male couples who secretly declare their partners leave them sexually unsatisfied. Such men are looking for no-strings sex yet also want to run to the safe (and as Boykin would have us believe) acceptable bonds of their "monogamous" pairing. It's a narrow-minded, judgmental scenario straight out of Peyton Place, people! Plenty of dirt is still being swept under the Persian carpet, behind those Pottery Barn draperies.

So for those of you who have never been to a bathhouse -- I guess you get the gold star. But what does that statement really indicate? It's like saying no one in our families has committed murder; it may be true, but in the larger scheme of the fallible and weak human condition, it is a meaningless bit of pomposity.

Ashwon
May 5 2006, 9:46AM

I've frequent bath houses when I was younger not so much anymore. I personally, never experienced feces on the floor, if anything there would be alot of kids on the floor depends on which bathouse you went to. Some were really clean and some not so clean. However, I think its the relax atmosphere that bring people there and the lack of trying to fit into a certain mold. Either you feel the person or you don't. It's a totally relax atmosphere where as you're not being interviewed, as oppose to a club or a bar. The standards are different.

steve
May 5 2006, 10:46AM

Whoissean, you assume that ALL gay men have been to a bathhouse? I'm left with that impression since you ask us to "stop lying." I'm not sure if you have enough information available to you to insinute that ALL gay men have visited a bathhouse just because you and those in your circle have. Perhaps this is an example of 'misery loving company.' You always hear the thief lamenting that EVERYBODY steals. Isn't that interesting?

In your first paragraph, you unwittingly create the thesis that if not for bathhouse attendance, HIV would be on the decline instead of the incline due to the fact that gays, as you claim are "all so damn virginal and self-righteous," hence not spreading HIV.

So the logical assumption, then, by your statement is to conclude that HIV is on the upswing due to bathhouse attendance and those of it's kind.

Yet we celebrate the existance of the bathhouse and it's 1st cousins, the park at night, any garden variety rest-room and the bookstore.

And we STILL wonder why folks call us disgusting and filthy. But we demand rights from these very people.

Derrick from Philly
May 5 2006, 11:45AM

Both Steve and Whoissean make sense. Y'all represent two different factions within the male homosexual world: those who believe that unihibited sexual pleasure is a choice/right even if others don't approve; and those who believe that it is healthier(physically & mentally) to seek monogomous relationships, build a partnership with another man, showing the gay&straight world that we can live our lives in a "positive" manner. I've known folks from both camps, and guys from both camps have been victims of the AIDS epidemic, and guys from both camps can be aware & intelligent or naive & stupid.
But, Steve, some of us don't choose the monogmous/relationship path, not because we're selfish and irresposible, but maybe because we don't want to fuck up sombody else's life who wants a commitment. As Whoissean said, "safe sex is a state of mind, not a location". I know "children"(such as this yours truly) who were part of the public park & all-night movie scene but made Safe Sex a rule. But I get the feeling that those of you who disapprove of such venues feel that whether one practices safe sex or not, the very existence of such places is a breeding ground for disease and bad "public relations". Darlin', I'm at the point where I don't give a damn what straight people think of me. Is that selfish? Well, some gay folks can be concerned with promoting a posiitve image, but my philosophy is, "T'aint nobody's bizness if I do." I've earned it.

Gordon
May 5 2006, 11:51AM

To: Steve,

Well said, Well said. I couldn't have said it better myself man. Just like every human being on earth, there are no two people alike, all gay men are not alike. As for the parks, bath house, gym steam and sauna's, do ya thang papis, get your ro off. But as for me, I chose not to participate. AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edwin greene
May 5 2006, 12:23PM

Keith,

Some gay men who may lack certain social skills (making small talk with strangers, for example) go to bathhouses for sex but also for other kinds of social interaction with other gay men.

At a bathhouse, certainly in the 1970s (I'm sort of revealing my age) when I went regularly, you could meet gay men of different races, different social/economic backgrounds in an easy sort of way that you probably would not have met otherwise.

Depending on the individuals involved, a friendship/relationship might evolve (not that you went there expecting that, but it certainly did happen from time to time) outside the bathhouse culture.

In 1970s, the bathhouses were a carefree, straight people free, judgement free environment to meet gay men for sex. It was great fun (of course, many of us would later pay a cruel price). But in the 1970s, no one knew what lie ahead.

I have been to bathhouses (not in some years, however) in different cities around the country and I have never encountered poop on the floor. The personnel at the bathhouses I visted seemed to go out of their way to keep their places clean.

Derrick from Philly
May 5 2006, 2:47PM

What's happening here is always what seems to happen when people discuss issues of what is and what is not appropriate or correct behavior. The first salvo is usually launched by those who don't approve of a certain behavior (bathhouses, public parks, all night movie theaters). Then when we "hedonists" respond, we're accused of ridiculing or attacking those that believe in a more "respectable" lifestyle. The initial article was critical of the bath house scene. Some of us who've never (or rarely) been to a bath house still defend them because we cannot bear a "holier than thou" response from those who believe our behavior constitutes less intelligence or downright stupidity. Don't do that! Don't look down on other folks because they choose a different lifestyle than yours. There's something about being a homosexual (of any type) and being JUDGEMENTAL about another's sex life that just don't fit.

As long as you don't bother/molest children (real children) or rape/beat up women, you can do whatever else the f___k else you want to.

Luddite
May 5 2006, 3:43PM

In Shakespeare's play "Twelfth Night" Sir Toby Belch (a boozer) tells Malvolio (an uptight, sanctimonious servant):

"Thinks thou because thou are virtueous there can be no more cakes and ale?"

300+ years later those words still ring true. Especially to uptight, judgemental, prissy queens like "Steve".

raskl
May 5 2006, 7:47PM

Basically I think it boils down to men will be men. I really don't goto bath houses in my city but I have been to one in Puerto Rico in Old San Juan so if your still there maybe you can do some research. Honestly I think they are very unhealthy and kinda gross. I definitley can understand why a person would do something like a gym shower or a bath house but. I think most of the people that frequent them are lonely. I actually have cruised parks and they are pretty much the same. I think they are very unhealthy and it is kinda disturbing to me the amount of married men that are in some of the places I have been.

Its kinda funny while I was living in DC I was very close to this gay couple. We did everything together. Well one night they were driving home from somewhere and it was around 2 am and Im crossing a street near a notorious cruising park and the car at the stop light is my friends the couple. Of course they were wondering what I was doing out there at 2 am. I came up with a lie but they knew what was up. Anyway they made fun of me and they would always joke that I "cut out the middle man" meaning clubs and parties etc... I have to say for me they were correct in a way. I never could do the social thing but I love sex with men. I found cruising a park to be very convienient.

cmoney
May 5 2006, 8:23PM

Interesting how some of us can be so prudish and judgmental against each other when most straight people think ALL gays are disgusting whether we go to bathhouses, are celibate or are in a committed relationship mimicking Ozzie and Harriet. I'm not prommoting or discouraging bathhouses but to those who feel that those who go are so gross: What's so great about being "holier than thou" when you still hate yourself and everyone like you?

Other Steve
May 5 2006, 11:37PM

cmoney:
You are right. But I, for one, tire of the endless support our community gives to the bathhouse scene. Yes, whorehouses exist, and other kinds of straight sex clubs, but they don't permeate straight culture to the extent bathhouses permeate gay culture. And most straight people frown on them.
What I am saying is that I consider the bathhouse culture to be extremely unhealthy for our community. It's a crutch for some people. It's "easy", etc. Look at all the excuses people put on going there. But it is essentially a whorehouse where the partners don't charge. Would that fly amongst straights? Maybe.
Regardless. I think our community would be a lot healthier, not talking just about HIV or other STD's, if we didn't have them. Yes, I've done the public sex thing, though only with someone I know. Probably I could be slammed for that as well.

And for the one who thinks I'm a prissy queen, he really should meet me. Probably be a bit surprised.

I'm mostly just upset when people think just because you are gay you support bathhouse culture. I definitely do NOT.

Vincent
May 6 2006, 12:10AM

At 50 yrs old I can remember a time when boys were encouraged to "sow there wild oats". A term for heterosexual men to have as much sex as they want before marriage. MEN are preoccupied with sex. The results of this preoccupation are very very expensive call girls,very expensive call boys,strip clubs, lap dances,cheap male and female escorts, bathhouses,bookstores, peepshows, playboy, playgirl, hustle, etc. This is our culture in america in 2006. I am glad the lord will judge me with a perfect heart, unlike the imperfect one I carry around in my chest. He says there is nothing new under the sun. This includes poop on the floor.

Jon
May 6 2006, 10:31PM

Keith,
I go to bathhouses, and it is quite interesting to meet many people from all social
classes who also frequent them. Many guys go for
sex, and go conversation in a stress free environment. Yet, the clubs can be stressful!
Many white guys go for other white guys. Latinos
will bond with other latinos, especially in spanish. But many African-american guys only want white guys!! This is sad, African-Caribbean
Men are more into brothers than those born here.
Also, the white establishments are kept in great
condition, while places where the clientele is predominately black will have the hottest black guys, but a poor & dirty cruising environment.
Finally, the clubs where I have attended have promoted safe sex, freely distributing condoms!

Kevin O
May 7 2006, 5:41AM

Keith,

Long time reader, first time poster. I laughed at loud at you recalling the Washington Blade article. At the end of the day, I guess Mark King was not into SHIT.

ANYWAY, I have been going to bath houses since I was nineteen (19)--now 35. I found out about them through a gay guide book (now it's as easy as www.cruisingforsex.com). When I was 19 it was mostly about sex. At 35, safety's first, its more about the environment (depending on the club) and if I have sex, that's a bonus. The bathhouses I've been to (across North America, Europe and South America) have run the gambit--crackhouse/shelter-like to boydello to fine day spa-like environments. Did I mention that some have full bars and resturants.

I hope that since we've learned to "manage" HIV/AIDS and other STD'S that we are returning to opening more of these public taxpaying safe houses.

stroll
May 7 2006, 2:23PM

While I imagine stepping in shit is not a common occurrence, bathhouses are typically poorly run, filthy shitholes where "cleaning" involves changing the holey sheet on a plastic "mattress" and spraying lysol in the air. I am in no position to judge anyone (and I wouldn't anyway) because I have spent time in bathhouses. But as for stepping in poop -- EEEWWWW. WEAR SHOES.

TasteofJa
May 7 2006, 11:30PM

Damn!!!, I was having my dinner.

protected static
May 10 2006, 12:40PM

It's interesting - I wonder what the differences are from city to city, neighborhood to neighborhood... My only experience with the baths (I'm in Seattle) has been working on a sexual risk-assessment project with King County/Seattle Public Health, so while I've been in all three (now down to two) gay baths in town, I haven't *been* in all three baths...

All of them were clean - one was on the threadbare side (the owner joked that they weren't a bath - they were a sex club, pure and simple, and wouldn't put on airs about it). All 3 tried to encourage safer sex, all of them said that they'd eject anyone found engaging in risky sex. A couple of them have had Poz nights, but found that while they were well-attended, they reduced the business of their regulars. One owner observed that some of their regulars would make a point of noisily leaving upon finding out that a Poz event was happening, only to return as soon as the event was over. Of course, 90% of the guys who came for the Poz night were still there...

All three owners talked about the 'net, and how it has reduced their trade. One had installed WiFi in order to keep guys there - and found that clients were using chat rooms to cruise and arrange liasons at the baths while they were there! Talk about adding a layer of abstraction...

The baths filled a void that is closing because of the internet and assimilation - the perceived need for queer-only space is decreasing, and we're probably losing something as a community because of it. I don't know that the disappearance of the baths is entirely a good thing - someone stated that HIV rates declined when the baths were closed, but my understanding is that *reported* cases declined while actual rates went pretty much unchanged.

Men who want anonymous sex are going to find ways to get it, and if they do so outside of an environment that at the very least makes some attempt to encourage safer sex, the odds of the sexual encounter being unsafe are greater...

Banga
May 11 2006, 1:30AM

What that dilly bitch doing walking around cummy bath house in a towl and no shoes for?

I'm like some of you lying posters on here. I've never been to a bath house - you know the uppity lonely girls that's judemental and negative cause I don't get laid safely and am too much a lady to go looking for it - cause it will find me.

Good luck Mary

eric
December 15 2006, 3:41PM

I go to a bathhouse that has a heated pool were they play high-energy techno music. Being naked in the water squirming my body around to the music is one on the most pleasurable things I do. I also partake in
some herb before entering. The pool area is brightly lit and everything is clean and friendly. Later after my workout in the water I roam around to see what’s happening and check out if there are any hot dudes around. Sometimes I masturbate in the TV lounge area were they are showing sex videos. And sometimes
dudes invite me into there rooms for quickies. I’m not afraid of telling them I’m putting on a condom, this
does not ruin anything, in fact it makes it better because when you have peace of mind and feel comfortable
without fear of contracting some dis-ease you fuck better. People who want to close down gay bathhouses
are fucking Republicans. They can’t tolerate other people enjoying life. I don’t want to live in a fascist country with big brother looking out for my supposed interests! Gay people should despise George Bush and his merry band of Neo-Con fascists. If you don’t like gay bathhouses, don’t go it’s as simple as that. I like gay bathhouses I feel free and healthy in them. Thank you very much!