Remembering the 'Good Times'

Bernie
March 23 2006, 12:17PM

I thought you were going to comment on the debate that I remember was raging when Good Times was on, over whether these were authentic images of Black folks or White Hollywood's impression of us? That was the hot issue then, because if you read the credits, there were scant few Black folks involved behind the scenes. Producers and writers of that show were all White, leading many of us to feel less than represented. This dichotomy between what was projected on screen to what was happening back stage was the chief reason John Amos wound up getting fired from the show.

By comparison, Bill Cosby was executive producer of his series.

Kenneth Winfrey
March 23 2006, 12:34PM

I agree that we do need more black images. When people complained to me about Noah's Arc being to feminine, I suggested that they take the opportunity to write a script for another show that reflects "their" reality. We can't all be fans of just one television program.

Coincidentally last night, a friend and I were discussing the problems of state government and black leadership in New Mexico. We spent a good while talking about which of them were incompetent, just there because they were cronies, or just plain up to no good. However, we soon came to the conclusion that there simply isn't enough to go around. It really is more about scarcity. For each dollar that comes our way, there are 50 hands scrambling for it. Then, in competition, we blame each other for the scarcity and start bending the rules to get what we can't get playing by the rules. ...and, sadly, we generally don't have the capacity through experience to even make much of those rare opportunities.

Similarly, for each television show that features black characters, there are countless people who don't identify with any of them. We criticize each other and call each other sell-outs as artisans, but we don't organize ourselves to take the industry to task. The problem doesn't exist, for example, for white people because they see all the varied representations of themselves throughout the industry. If it isn't on CBS, it's on NBC. We just get BET and Noah's Arc, and pray to see a reflection of ourselves every once in a while, even if it is a bit vague or overly stereotypical. We fight with each other to crowd the few sound stages and studios where we may be found while other groups play the game and create the institutions they need.

ALLEGRO
March 23 2006, 12:52PM

Actually the creators of the show were MICHAEL EVANS(Lionel from the JEFFERSONS) and ERIC MONTE....both black men. The issue of contention had less to do with the false portayal of ghettto life as it had to do with the shift in the shows premise. It started ut as a vehicle for ESTHER ROLLE as a spin off from MAUDE where she was their maid. However, once Good times got going...they wanted to put the spotlight on JIMMY WALKER.

KEITH I must say you lost me with your commentary. i think I know of the intent but I dont think you support yourself well. I know I for one have never heard of black folk debating between the COSBY SHOW and the GOODTIMES. If there were any comparisons, it was more along the lines of which TV family were you able to most identify with based upon your upbringing. I mean honestly....while I know a lot of people viewed the COSBY family as unrealistic when it first came onto the scene.....I think an even more UNREALISTIC portayal would have been the JEFFERSONS...especially since they ran concurrently for a few seasons. Talk about extremes.

You are right though....i look forward to seeing more images of the black gay experience on the airwaves...especially shows that reflect more of my experiences. However, when you have a show like NOAH's ARC being the only image out there right now, it's going to create concern since a lot of peopleo utside of the community will make assumptions based on that sole image the see.

Bernie
March 23 2006, 1:32PM

Good Times' creators were Black true, but the producers were Sid Dorfman, Jack Elinson, Austin Kalish, Irma Kalish, Norman Lear, Allan Manings, Gordon Mitchell, Don Nicholl, Norman Paul, Ken Stump, George Sunga, Lloyd Turner, Bernard West, who to the best of my knowledge, were White men. Who do you think got the final say on content issues?

And perhaps he's since buried the hatchet, but for years afterwards John Amos refused to make any reference to that show in his bio. In a Playbill from a production of August Wilson's play "Fences" that I saw him perform, he wrote that his favorite tv role was as Gordy Howard on The Mary Tyler Moore Show.

nOva
March 23 2006, 1:50PM

It amazes me that some people actually took out the time to compare those two shows. I have a question:

Is it easier for us as an audience to compare things (which otherwise would have nothing to do with one another) in order to contextualize them?

cmoney
March 23 2006, 4:11PM

One good thing about "Good Times" was that it depicted an era when people were trying to get OUT of the ghetto and improve their lives. Today, people seem to want to portray themselves as "ghetto" and all of the negative stereotypes that go with that image even if they grew up in a Cosby family household. I don't get it. I grew up in a Cosby family household before there even was a "Cosby Family" on T.V. The closest role models I could find in that era of three channels was "The Jeffersons"--and that was a stretch. Images do mean a lot. Today, a black teenager having his own car in High School, living in a nice home and driving a Mercedes to the Prom wouldn't be such a shock to white America. But it was when I did it in the late 70's and early 80's. Not because I was the only one, but because the image portrayed to white America was that this was not to be expected. We could use some more Cosbys on TV for white America, but we could definitely use some more Good Times for the sake of our own self image.

P. Alonzo Harris Jr.
March 23 2006, 4:31PM

Keith,

i hope all is well.. we have to get together when you are free, im always in the city...

i agree with you that Sanford and Son and The Jeffersons were better than both the shows..

it tragic, because they don't make good comedy like any of these shows anymore...

there is nothing but garbage on tv these days...

paul
http://paulharrisjr.blogspot.com

alicia
March 23 2006, 5:33PM

ditto keith
i liked both

2 realities
both well done

peace
ab

$harif
March 23 2006, 6:32PM

Good Times, Sanford & Son, The Jeffersons, and The Cosby Show all were great shows geared toward their era but I often wonder why The Cosby Show seem obsessed with having so many mixed and light skinned characters with curly hair? I mean no offense to anyone, it was just a thought.

Brandon
March 23 2006, 6:44PM

I think all of the shows mentioned are great examples of African Americans on television. I think as a community we need to be happy with any positive images that we can see of ourselves on the television. The one thing that I praise about all the straight shows (The Cosby Show, etc,) is that they all featured a wide area of African Americans. One of my biggest complaints about Noah's Arc and other gay shows is that it seems to depict that you have to look a certain way in order to be accepted or live the gay lifestyle. Unfortunately, I feel that we as a community need to start embracing one another as individuals living a lifestyle that society at large does not accept and does not consider to be valid. It's hard enough contending with the majority of society, its made even worse when we criticize one another for the way we look. I feel that we should support one another, and I feel that the Television screen should also support a wide area of gay men of different shapes, sizes, and especially colors.

Doug Cooper-Spencer
March 23 2006, 6:56PM

You hit the nail right on the head Keith. More images, not just a few.

castiron
March 23 2006, 7:04PM

I could write volumes on what these shows mean to me now that I'm much older than I was when they originally aired. Actually, I'm more engaged by them today than I was when I was a boy. I understand them better. I can interpret my own life as a boy and as a 39 year old man using a lot of the narratives from these shows. Can't say how much I love the characters of James and Florida Evans.

jazzi
March 24 2006, 12:02AM

$harif, I too used to wonder about the same thing. I think what Cosby was trying to do was show the world that African American families come in a variety of shades. Still, I was puzzled as to how two dark brown people could have two children who appeared half white. I could see if one of the parents were light skinned but it made no sense as it was. Maybe they were adopted! Anyway.....

nreeldeep
March 24 2006, 10:13AM

The study of genetics teaches us that genetically we all come from a pool of the genes of every relative who precedes us, not just from our parents or grandparents. The Cosby's family is a great example. Both Bill and Claire are fairly dark complected and had two kids who were rather fair. This is possible because somewhere in the family tree there has to exist at least one ancestor not of african decent. Those two Cosby children obviously pulled genetics from this relative. This too is why some children from the same parents, look nothing alike or like either parent. The boy looks just like great uncle Melvin and the daughter looks like a great-granddad Judson.

cmoney
March 24 2006, 11:20AM

Sometimes the child doesn't look like the parent because the daddy was the mailman! LOL! Anyway, I agree with the observations on the appearance of the Cosby kids. By the way does anyone really think Michael, Thelma and J.J. came from the same womb? Cosby's deliberate depiction of light skinned characters was a challenge to the status quo. Many light skinned actors and actresses were denied roles in programming aimed at white audiences because their racial identity was supposedly confusing to white America. That's right, just like dark skinned actors were rejected for being too dark for some roles, many performers were rejected for being too light. Dorothy Dandridge comes to mind. I remember once meeting an actor from a television series that aired in the 80's and remarking how much lighter he was in person. He responded that he was required to wear makeup that made him darker for his television role. Interesting that none of the white actors were required to darken their appearance. I think (and hope) we are finally getting away from this color foolishness.

Derrick from Philly
March 24 2006, 11:50AM

JJ didn't come from anyone's womb, he was hatched.

cmoney, you've got a wicked sense of humor: the mailman.

I'm slightly straying from the subject, but
don't y'all forget "What's Happening" Remember Dwayne. Lord, he could wear a pair of dress pants!
Unlike today's LL Cool J. Oh! I just can't see what y'all see in that...

Liquid Fonts
March 24 2006, 12:30PM

Now the way I heard it, Good Times was supposed to be some kind of extention of Raison In The Sun.

Keith Im shocked to learn that you would place Sanford and Son above Good Times. lol

Liquid Fonts
March 24 2006, 12:38PM

-Now the way I heard it, Good Times was supposed to be some kind of extention of Raison In The Sun.

-$5 to anyone who can name Penny's full name on the show. (I will make a $5 purchase on your behalf)

**Keith Im shocked to learn that you would place Sanford and Son above Good Times. lol, oh well.

:)

ALLEGRO
March 24 2006, 1:11PM

LOL.....LIQUID.....I think Keith's affinity for SANFORD AND SON has to be due to the fact that FRED came from St. LOUIS, MISSOURI..and always made a refernce to it....and KEITH is from St. LOUIS as well.

AINT THAT CUTE? lol

cmoney
March 24 2006, 1:16PM

See, Derrick from Philly, you had to go bring up Dwayne from "What's happenin'". Now I have to take a cold shower. Talk about booty for days!! That was must see TV!

Ron
March 24 2006, 10:34PM

Well I say more power to Reggie cuz the before and after is like WHOA!!! The bottom line is that if you don't take care of your body it won't take care of you. That includes watching your diet, exercising, not smoking, not drinking, etc and taking care of your skin. First of all...good skin starts with good skin. For some its simply in the genes. For others, its gonna take some "treatments" to try and slow down the hands of time.

Unfortunately, many homosexuals are very superficial and there is so much emphasis on having a tight body and a clear, smooth face. At first I used to bust my ass workin out and doing such to try and make sure I was "worthy" but thank goodness as I've gotten older (28) and have matured, I simply do it for myself now. I like to look good and feel healthy for myself so that I can live a long, healthy life. But, I get regular spa treatments and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Like I said...if you don't take care of your body it wont' take care of you.

jon
March 25 2006, 7:58PM

What's interesting is how those sitcoms relate to the ongoing situation regarding gay marriage - and how that comes back to the gay community, and what's truth, what's lies, and what's reality.

Within 10 years we saw Good Times, which was a very real life story for many people living in the ghettos, to the Cosby Show, a family that most of us have nobody to compare to (black or white). We went from a time when shows represented our reality - no matter how much it wasn't fun to see - to shows where the lives were so out of reach, so unrealisitic - that I couldn't stand watching them.

The same thing goes for gay marriage and how the gay media machine works today in 2006. The gay media is no different from the right-wing FOX media - both of these venues LIE like the dickens. Right-wingers go on about how deviant gay people are, but the gay media reflects the gay community in that it's all about appearances - as long as it LOOKS good - as long as gay men (in particular) appear to be wealthy, educated, partnered, "arrived", with nice condos and snazzy new outfits, then everything's okay. However, nothing at all is ever said about the significant number of suicides, chemical dependancy issues, isolationism that has skyrocketed over the past ten years, and the hundreds of thousands of gay men who've met nobody - at all - and don't even know how to date another man. When you compare the small percentage of gay people who are at a point in their lives where they are ready to get married - and congratulations to them - to the number of gay men who have given up, stayed home, started drinking, and are in deep emotional pain over the fact that they haven't found anyone in 20 years, it makes me wonder what our priorities should be. We need to address the amount of depression and isolationism that goes on with gay men. So many of us have been treated so badly - by each other! - that we have decided to stay home. That's where all the gay men are now. Ten years ago was the beginning of the end for gay bars and cafes. Those who got tired of being treated like garbage by other gay men gave up. Now we have nobody to talk with unless we cross paths online. And how often does that turn into anything?

As a community, it angers me that gay men have done the exact opposite of what the black community has done. Instead of valuing people - valuing each other - we get off on hurting each other and seeing bad things happen to each other. We have this eliteist system where only the affluent get to live among their gay brothers -those without the graduate degrees and good jobs can not afford to live in the gay neighborhoods that have priced the majority of us out.

Sorry to get long-winded here. But I see many parallels regarding how certain people in our community WANT us to view things and how they really are. It is up to us as individuals to research what is truth and what are lies - at this point I don't believe much of anything I hear anymore unless I see it for myself.

naturalblkluv
March 25 2006, 9:28PM

I NEVER LIKED GOOD TIMES, BECAUSE IT ALWAYS SHOWED THE WORSE OF THE WORSE OF BLACK AMERICA. I CAME FROM THE RULE SOUTH AND I KNEW NOTHING OF THAT LIFE BECAUSE IN A TOWN OF LESS THAN 5000, WE DIDN'T HAVE ALL OF THAT GOING ON. AS A CHILD THE PROJECTS OF OUR TOWN WAS UPSCALE HOUSING TO MANY NORTHERN CITIES.

I WAS GLAD TO SEE THE COSBY'S COME ON TV, BECAUSE AT THAT POINT IN TIME ALL THOSE ABOUT BLK FOLKS WERE ALL FROM THE HOOD. IN NC THERE WERE MANY BLACK COLLEGES, WHO GRADUATES CAME BACK AND OPENED BUSINESS. STATE AND FEDERAL INSTITUTIONS HAD TO HIRE BLACK FOLKS AND THERE WAS A POOL OF QULIFIED BLACK APPLICANTS, SO THERE WAS A BLACK MIDDLE CLASS.

ALSO, IN THE SOUTH MOST FAMILIES GREW VEGETABLE GARDENS BACK THEN, SO THERE WAS NOBODY WHO WAS REALLY HUNGRY. I REMEMBER MY GRANDMOTHER USE TO SEND GREENS, TOMATOES, ETC TO THE ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY. IN ADDITION SHE USE TO FEED ANYBODT WHO CAME BY HER HOUSE ON SUNDAY AFTERNOON, BUT MOST BLACK CHURCH GOING WOMEN DID THAT ALSO.

SO, IF YOU ASK ME, I PREFER THE COSBY SHOW OVER GOOD TIMES, BECAUSE IT SHOWED THE BEST OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY, COLLEGE EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS WHO WEREN'T DOPED UP ON DRUGS AND GOING THRU THE TRASH TO EAT.

DC
March 26 2006, 5:27PM

I think that Good Times is one of the worst shows ever on television. Its popularity just demonstrates how racist, simple-minded and dumbed-down America really is.
The show insults black people then and now. As usual with TV and movies, the show is filled with stereotypes. The "angry black man" as father. The "Aunt Jemima" wife and the minstrel buffoon J.J. I hope and pray I live to see the day when most black characters on TV are positive. I suggest anyone read Primetime Blues: African Americans on Television by Donald Bogle. He has written a brilliant analysis, especially of the J.J. character. It actually hurts me to look back and remember the stereotypes this show perpetuated. And, not much has changed, since then. Just watch UPN. I'm prepared to be and expecting to be attacked by some of you for my views.

DC

Sanjay
March 26 2006, 8:36PM

"Good Times" had many characters and episodes that were riddled with stereotypes but the show also tackled some very important and pressing issues and did so, I think, fairly well.

Greg
March 26 2006, 10:30PM

I'm always in awe of how the Black community knocks the "The Cosby Show" as not being realistic.

A lot of folks need to understand there ARE black families in the USA who are finacially well off and live like the Huxtables. It's just that White America has fed us a steady diet of the "ghetto" persona on television for so/too long that we tend to see people of color as being one-dimensional and fake if they're not "down" or "cool" and label them as not being genuine. That's crap!

"The Cosby Show" and it's spin-off "A Different World" brought a level of black dignity to televsion that was badly needed. It was refreshing to see literate black folks who didn't act like "coons" and carried themselves with class.

Luddite
March 27 2006, 12:11PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Marlon Rigg's outstanding documentary "Color Adjustment" which is about depictions of Black in film and TV from the 1920's to the early 90's (I think)

The juxtaposition of JJ from "Good Times" with newsreels of Minstrel Shows from the 20's was quite jarring. Well worth a rental if you can find it.

http://www.newsreel.org/films/coloradj.htm

jazzi
March 27 2006, 6:32PM

That's true, Greg.

Monica Roberts
March 31 2006, 10:29PM

The creator of 'Good Times' and 'The Jeffersons' was a brother by the name of Eric Monte.
He also created 'Cooley High'

http://blackvoices.aol.com/entmain/television/qacanvas?id=20050331100609990001