Pumping Irony: A Tale of Two Men

VanJoe
December 13 2005, 11:12AM

I'm curious though, Keith. Do you agree or disagree with the decision to put him to death? It isn't at all clear which side you are on - or is that perhaps deliberate?

Chris
December 13 2005, 12:07PM

I am curious as well, what side you are on, Keith. Do you agree with the "termination?" Ya know, everyone deserves a second chance. I was actually inclined to believe that the death sentence bestowed upon Tookie was another act of racism and that Arnold's denial of Tookie's request was unjust. However, after just a little online research of my own, I had the unfortunate opportunity to see the pictures of Tookie's alleged victims. The photos LITERALLY took my breath away. And I firmly believe that if he did commit those heinous murders, justice was truly served this morning at 12:35am. For no amount of Tookie inspired, anti-gang, anti-violence movements could right the wrong that he committed in 1977.

And you are correct, in real life, nothing can be done to bring back those who have been terminated. How many lives were touched, devastated and ruined by those four people that died that the hands of the Crip co-creator, who decided he would "play God" for the evening?

Furthermore, analogizing Arnold's "portrayed" killing image and Tookie's "actual" killing image is not fair. Just because Arnold has played such characters on the big screen and then "redeemed" himself by playing less harmful characters on that same screen, in no way suggests that he should be any less forgiving or understanding of Tookie's murderous acts. Was this a Devil's Advocate attempt on your part? As governor of California (as ridiculous as it is), Arnold had to do what he had to do...and I have to agree with his comments and decision. For without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption!

I'd like to add the disclaimer that I am not a republican ;-)

Chris
December 13 2005, 12:29PM

correction to my posted comment below. In the third paragraph, I meant "Just because Arnold has played such characters on the big screen and then "redeemed" himself by playing less harmful characters on that same screen, in no way suggests that he should be any MORE forgiving or understanding of Tookie's murderous acts.

Felicia
December 13 2005, 12:37PM

Keith I am with you. This country truly bothers me on its stance on the death penalty.

Felicia
December 13 2005, 12:40PM

Do you believe the evidence was rock solid with forensica and technology that exists today. What would it have hurt to look at it? It is a tainted system that much we do know.

Kenneth Winfrey
December 13 2005, 12:52PM

Aside from any roles he played in movies, observations such as AS' reputation for groping women and disregarding his father's funeral to win a competition leave little to wonder what is being said about his character. More importantly, to ponder the permanence of the death penalty in closing, rather than celebrating it, suggest to me that there is no support for the decision to end the life of Stanley Tookie Williams here. I, for one, share these perspectives. However, most of my thoughts on the matter were on the contradiction of the death penalty in America.

Some say that the Founding Fathers somehow intended for us to be Christian. So, we'll boycott institutions to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays, in the name of Christ "the Redeemer." We'll debate the display of religious doctrine such as the Ten Commandments in our government facilities arguing that America has lost her values. We'll even turn out in droves to defend "the sanctity of life" and fight against a woman's right to choose abortion. We'll blur and stretch that line that separates the Christian church from state until it is all but invisible.

Yet, we'll still kill a man for retribution. In fact, the right-wing is more likely found in church on Sunday, and supporting stiffer sentencing and other forms of so-called "justice" on other days of the week. From Stanley Tookie Williams to the so-called war on terrorism, it's obvious that many Americans are obsessed with retribution, not redemption. I don't know if she is Christian, but one the victims' mother was almost drooling when she spoke against a stay of execution. If she is (or if America is) Christian, the testimony of the apparent redemption and salvation of Stanley Tookie Williams has been overlooked in the name of capital "punishment."

Most people just like the idea of doing that which they fear most to someone they want to punish. Yet, how do we know that death is punishment? Most people who claim to have died and been brought back to life actually describe it as a pleasant experience...

Can a man found guilty of murder (although his conviction was dubious) ever be useful to society again? In the case of Stanley Tookie Williams, I have to say that I think he can. To begin with, I don't credit him with single-handedly starting gangs in LA. Gangs are nothing new (i.e., The Gangs of New York). That's just something that happens when people are oppressed. However, I do credit him with remaking himself into a valuable member of society by encouraging many more young people to avoid gangs. Because of this, I believe that he has fully atoned for his crimes and will rest in peace.

ReganDuCasse
December 13 2005, 12:58PM

I'm REAL sick and tired of the rallies for and around people like Williams.
His books were dedicated, not so strangely, to people he considered victims of 'the system' , rather than violent, murderous men,like George Jackson, for example.
Look Jackson up.

Most of Williams supporters didn't even know the names of his victims.
And in his time, Williams was looking for power and street cred with his homies.
He couldn't have cared less about those he killed, or influenced other gang members to.
That his accomplices were the eyewitnesses has much credibility, Williams didn't spend his free time with decent people.
His own spawn became dangerous as well.
And evidently his messages in his 'johnnie came too late' books isn't getting across.

Two young teen boys (15 and 17) were killed, and a third boy badly wounded by gangs opening up on them as they walked between each other's homes on Saturday night, around 8pm.
The carnage in LA this week has topped the usual casualties our soldiers take in Iraq.
HELLO, doctors and surgeons get their combat wound training from INNER CITY HOSPITALS.

What the FUCK does that tell you?!

We don't execute ENOUGH. Elevate the worth of the victims ENOUGH and aren't committed enough within our own community to raise sons who don't need a Tookie Williams to stand as a role model, but their OWN fathers, entrepreneurs, firefighters, teachers, clergy, and others like that to set an example as reason to avoid gangs.

But the fact remains, the boys killed last weekend weren't in a gang.
Williams lived 24 years longer than he deserved, and died non violently by the needle.
Anyone of us who has undergone general anethesia go through a similar process.
Williams was lucky to go out that way.
And he was one life, for four.
It ain't even and he got more than fair.

castiron
December 13 2005, 1:47PM

It is appalling how we (black people) celebrate muderous crimminals. To listen to Jamie Fox, a drug addict known as "Snoop Dog," Alfrie Woodard, and Lynn Whitfield among others, you'd think Tookie, the murderer, deserved the Nobel Prize for Peace.

He brutually murdered four people, would not admit it, yet expected clemmency because he wrote children's books. This is absurd. He decided that he would be the jury, judge and exectutioner of 4 people(that we know of). Who knows what they would have been like today. Who knows how many books they would have written or what contributions they might have made to society.

The justice system in America is corrupt and unfair particularly regarding black men, women and children, but in this case justice was served.

May Tookie receive the peace in death that he did not receive in life.

Derrick from Philly
December 13 2005, 1:53PM

I don't feel comfortable with the death penalty, especially as it's applied in these racist United States. I don't trust racist, unscrupulous police departments and district attorney offices--the kind you have in Los Angeles and in every other community in these racist United States. But Lawd, help me--I despise young savages who, in order to prove their warped view of manhood, go out and commit horrible acts of violence against defenseless and innocent people.

When white savages commit violent heinous acts we simply consider them evil and typical "white devils" (which they are). When black savages do it, it's the 400 years of slavery and oppression that created their "anger and devaluation of life"(especially other black folks' lives).

Redemption?

Am I vindictive? Do I crave punishment for those who are guilty of hurting and destroying folks' lives?
Chile', please, you reap what you sow.

Michael Kevin Williams
December 13 2005, 1:53PM

I am truly shocked in seeing what society has done to us as a people, we take a momentary look into people's lives, if and only if it has been thrown in our faces to make us watch and then not knowing the complete story allow us to sit back and judge for no apparent reason........

Dee
December 13 2005, 2:07PM

First and foremost, why do so many people expect "Tookie" to apoligize for something he claims he never did. He can't apoligize for acts he, purportedly, never carried out.

However, with that being said, even if Tookie didn't commit the murder for which he just died for, he still is responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of other individuals due to his creation of the Crips gang. People are dying each and everyday b/c of his creation.

Yes, the death penalty and its administration is flawed. I admit that. However, in this case, I am not disturbed b/c, from my view, it fufilled its function. It put to death an individual who was responsible for the deaths of countless others. Yes, as difficult it is for some to believe, in this case, the system did do its job.

Felicia
December 13 2005, 2:57PM

To: Regan Decasse on George Jackson

I woke up this mornin',
There were tears in my bed.
They killed a man I really loved
Shot him through the head.
Lord, Lord,
They cut George Jackson down.
Lord, Lord,
They laid him in the ground.

Sent him off to prison
For a seventy-dollar robbery.
Closed the door behind him
And they threw away the key.
Lord, Lord, They cut George Jackson down.
Lord, Lord,
They laid him in the ground.

He wouldn't take shit from no one
He wouldn't bow down or kneel.
Authorities, they hated him
Because he was just too real.
Lord, Lord,
They cut George Jackson down.
Lord, Lord,
They laid him in the ground.

Prison guards, they cursed him
As they watched him from above
But they were frightened of his power
They were scared of his love.
Lord, Lord,
So they cut George Jackson down.
Lord, Lord,
They laid him in the ground.

Sometimes I think this whole world
Is one big prison yard.
Some of us are prisoners
The rest of us are guards.
Lord, Lord,
They cut George Jackson down.
Lord, Lord,
They laid him in the ground.

Copyright © 1971 Ram's Horn Music

David
December 13 2005, 4:08PM

Many things come to my mind in the aftermath of this execution.
One is the hypocrisy of Arnold Schwarzeneggar for his continuing support of Kurt Waldheim, former President of Austria, U.N Secretary General, and Nazi intelligence officer.
The other is the commutation of all death sentences by former Illinois Governor George Ryan in 2003.
He stated "Because the Illinois death penalty system is arbitrary and capricious - and therefore immoral - I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death."
This was after 13 people on death row were EXONERATED of the crimes for which they were to be put to death.

Michael Kevin Williams
December 13 2005, 4:15PM

Truly to a certain extent you have to believe a little bit of each of you. People react off anger (rightfully so) and people react off sadness (an emotion you don't have control over). So I ask how does it affect you personally? It affect me personally, because one man made a choice (decision) to kill from something he (himself) help create while the other made the choice (desicion) to kill from a law that we (ourselves) help to make. You have the control USE IT....

Cyrus From L.A.
December 13 2005, 4:49PM

I am on both sides of the fence on this thing. On one side, I think that he should have been executed simply because my brother was killed by members of the Crips two years ago. Those guys were never caught. I admit, I have my own personal prejudice against those particular gangsters, and the fact that I want justice for my brother's life. Williams swore his innocence, and vowed that he was a changed man, yet he would not help the authorities crack down on the gang that he supposedly had grown to oppose. That doesn't sound like someone who had changed. I keep thinking that maybe my brother's life would have been spared if had he helped put those bastards away. But that's wishful thinking.

However, as a Catholic, I believe that life is a gift that GOD gaves all of us, and NO ONE other than HIM should have the right to take it away. There are terrorists in Iraq who execute American soldiers all day long because they feel that we have tainted their land. Does their opinion justify them taking a human life? HELL NO!!

I find it funny how people are saying that Williams should have been executed because he founded the Crips. But let us remember that he was not convited of founding the Crips. He was convicted of murdering four people. But a conviction does not always mean a person is guilty. All we have to do is look at all the people who have been condemned to death but were later exonerated due to police corruption and bribed witnesses. I believe that if there is any evidence that could potentially clear a man's name, he should not be put to death.

I was not even born when he supposedly killed those people, so I don't know if he did or did not. But if there is any existing evidence that could have exonerated him, then Schwarzenegger and everyone who played a part in this should all burn in hell!!! I just hope the man made peace with the Lord, and that he was forgiven for the evil monster he created.

Laura
December 13 2005, 5:17PM

This country was built on murder and slavery so it's no wonder the state can murder 1000 of its own people, under the guise of "justice". The Tookies, and axe murderers and Dahmers and other ruthless killers are direct products of this state-murder mentality.

No wonder we can justify killing thousands overseas, people are so goddam bloodthirsty in this country, frothing at the mouth for the death of others.

Laura
December 13 2005, 5:20PM

"There are terrorists in Iraq who execute American soldiers all day long because they feel that we have tainted their land. Does their opinion justify them taking a human life? HELL NO!!"

those "terrorists" are defending their own land from foreign invaders, and we for all our smart bombs and high tech guns are losing.

that's what sane people do when foreign invaders drop bombs on their cities, they don't come with candy and flowers, they fight back.

give me a mf break.

Forever Barri
December 13 2005, 5:24PM

Are we mourning "Tookie" because of his celebrity, his significant rehabilitation results or because some of us feel that perhaps he was innocent of his charges? Tookie was affiliated with a gang that takes innocent lives without regret. Would we debate over a member of the KKK group who was CONVICTED of murdering four minorities eventhough he proclaimed his innocence throughout his jail stay and at the sametime showed great promise that his rehabilitation minimized his hatred toward minorities? What is truly justice for death? It is so funny how these supposed GOD fearing men are so intuned with following the Bible, but as they as always do, they use the verbiage of the Bible to do their will. "Thou shall not Kill" Tookie was killed by the hands of man! No man has the right to take a life that he did not grant. The unbalance that gang warfare has placed in society only acts as the foundation of an unbalanced society as a whole! Protect your soul. Make these reckless parents pay the price for this unbalance. This evil began with them and their act of bringing uncivilized and unworthy lives into this already plagued world!

alicia banks
December 13 2005, 5:35PM

wow...eloquent keith!

i have always loathed arnold...
his legacy as governor has proven to be as ruthless as his movie roles...

god rest tookie's soul
karma is real...
like tookie, arnold will someday reap his karma too...

peace
ab

Terrence
December 13 2005, 5:35PM

Excellent, excellent piece Keith. What an irony indeed! Thanks for shedding light on it. I am in agreement with you 100% too.

http://terrencesays.blogspot.com/2005/12/abolish-death-penalty.html

vulcan
December 13 2005, 6:01PM

This piece is such junk. If you want to flat out against death penalty or against Williams' execution just present your case without bringing out Arnold's flaws. Remember the former govervornor Craig Davis who is a Democrats also turned down William's clemency request. The case agains Williams is not as rock solid as most people would like but neither was his evidence to prove his innocense. He cofounded the Crips and he must have had some influence; if he was truly innocent I don't believe that he couldn't find out who actually did it. BTW how come I hardly hear people who supported Williams show any sadness for the victims. Victims photos - http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookiewilliamsvictims.html

May the victims rest in peace now.

Octavio
December 13 2005, 6:41PM

So...I guess I'll start with the fundamentals. On the pure basis that he murdered these four people and his punishment is the death penalty, we MAY be able to argue that justice was not served. I do find some fluidity in the evidence surrounding the case. I find it interesting that Stanley (must we call this man "tookie?"...por dios!) remained so adamant about his innocence until death. Moreover, there was no finger print, DNA, bootprint, etc. that linked this man to either of the two scenes. In this respect, facts and justice don't have a pretty correlation.

However...many people are making the argument that this man has redeemed himself by writing children's books speaking out against gangs & violence?! Are you f*cking kidding me?! "Ooops! I formed a national organization that perpetuates black on black crime and ensures that stereotypes remain alive and well...i know...maybe i should write...CHILDREN'S BOOKS!" Yes yes yes, people make mistakes, I mad a calculation error on my final exam today, but as far as I can see the effects will be minimal. In reality, his death row sentence for murdering those four people (whether he did or didn't) was an easy device used to punish this man for founding the crips, and quite frankly this is one of the times I praise the dynamic interpretation of our justice system. Race has been introduced as a factor in the clemency rejection...folks can we put the black cards away? I don't care what color this man was, the death penalty was not inappropriate in this case. What would it benefit our society to have this man around? Looking at one of the covers on the children's book was a white kid...I don't know any white crips (not to say there aren't any), but this makes me question the impact these books are having. I think his death makes a more profound statement and offers consolation to the family members of the hundreds who have been killed as a result of his existence. Imagine if you were a family member of one of the four who were murdered or the many others that have died as a result of crip warfare...killing this man doesn't bring them back, but I wouldn't want my tax money supporting the murderer of a family member. Most importantly, the plea for clemency was untimely.

Lastly, I was surprised at the parallel you drew between arnold and stanley. I definitely hadn't made the connection; it's an interesting notion. At the end of the day though, there's a stark contrast between arnold's redemptive process and stanley's. Terminator was a violent movie, but how many deaths can we connect to the movie? So he missed father's funeral! We don't know the relationship between the two men nor the culture that bred arnold over in Austria. The claims of sexual harassment...again big deal, who can even say how plausible they are. That's all I have for now.

michaeliv
December 13 2005, 8:06PM

Burn in hell Tookie.

You made everyone's life in the inner city one.

cmoney
December 13 2005, 8:25PM

I'm ambivalent about the death penalty, but I am certain of one thing---this man was no poster child for opposition to the death penalty. Progressives really do themselves a disservice by fervently opposing the death penalty when they put their political capital behind a monster. People who might readily support them lose respect for them when they support people who have harmed society--especially minorities--as much as this man. White liberals don't live with gang violence. They don't live with drug wars in their front yard. They don't have dead relatives who were gunned down for no good reason. To them, it is all an academic, philosophical debate. For the rest of us, it is trying to live our lives without getting gunned down. Trying to live in a safe neighborhood. We don't have the luxury of a debating society. We live with the carnage these monsters create. I don't know if Williams is guilty and it is absurd that someone like "Arnold" will make the final decision on someone's life, but he made the right decision. Even a broken clock is right two times a day. Maybe some of Williams' faithful, gangbanging followers will get the message--we hate you and we will kill you if you keep killing us and terrorizing our neighborhoods!

Kenneth Winfrey
December 13 2005, 9:20PM

Well, Europeans are outraged by the execution of Mr. Williams. Read the story at:

Neledi
December 14 2005, 1:35AM

What america has taught me?
Violence begets violence, and legalized murder is justice.

john
December 14 2005, 2:00AM

keith:

if tookie were a white racist monster and murdered 4 or even more good black folks, what would you say?

Mark Norris
December 14 2005, 2:11AM

Thanks Keith, as usual you did a fine job. I was mourning the death of Tookie, as one of the comments say, a couple of reasons. The main one was because I thought about all of the little black kids (especially boys, and even some other races) who could have been influence by Tookie's reformation and been stirred away from gangs. That in itself was reason enough to keep the man alive. Yes, I feel for the victims, but when a person has the ability to do something good especially saving kids I think it is wrong to just do away with him.

Mark

blacklatina
December 14 2005, 4:47AM

This entire situation is REALLY REALLY sad. My heart goes out to the families of the victims.

Nathans
December 14 2005, 7:04AM

Well the law siays that he should be executed so he was...my issue is that there is such a law. I am against the death penalty in general since it is clearly not applied fairly and equally. Tookie's case is not the case that illustrates this point since he was clearly deviant.

This man and the others that follow him into a life of gang warfare need to be punished no doubt. I do beleive that reforamtion is possible but he knew that the death penalty was a possible consequence so he should have followed the str8 and narrow from the get go.

April
December 14 2005, 8:39AM

I understand that Williams was convicted of killing 4 people and that he started a gang that has spread nationwide, yada yada yada, blah blah blah. Not trying to minimize the harm caused by this man decades ago, just we all know these things already.

But has anyone noticed that people on all sides have seen the good he did from behind bars? Bloods, Crips, celebrities, politicians, cops, east coast, west coast, and even plain ol' everyday people around the world have seen that this man has made a hell of a lot of changes. Whether or not he could have continued to live a better life helping others from his cage will remain unknown.

I do know that if his books helped keep one child from going the same route he did and ending up like a guy I grew up with.... walking around with a 9 mil tucked in his waistband, shooting the first dude that steps on his Nikes... then Williams deserves thanks. Maybe not forgiveness for what he did 30 years ago, but thanks for what he did since.

By the way, for those that thinks he is burning in hell right now... God is the only one who can judge me, Williams, or anybody else when it comes to what comes after this life. Regardless of what that man ever said outloud, he may have asked God for forgiveness long ago. That's between him and God. You need to re-read some scripture because I could have sworn that in the Bible, Jesus says: Love your enemy... Love your neighbor... Forgive... Turn the other cheek... Give your problems including hate to God.. etc.

Damn, yall had to get me spoutin off about Bible verses. Don't tell nobody, I'm supposed to be liberal :)

jazzi
December 14 2005, 9:11AM

I realy don't know if Williams was guilty of these crimes or not. Nobody really does. We all have opinions but the only ones who know for sure are God, Williams, & those victims. If he was guilty then he got what was a long time coming. If he was guilty then no amount of children's books, nobel prizes, & other good works could ever off set the taking of life. If he's guilty then crying about being a different person means nothing in light of the fact that he robbed four of God's children of the opportunity to change. They'll never have that "light bulb" momnent he claims to have had. A changed person knows that if they are guilty of a crime then they have to suffer the consequenes. A changed person knows that the violent murder of four people cannot be ignored. It must be addressed. If he was guilty.

But what if Williams was innocent as many believe? Then a grave miscarriage of justice took place this week. Basically, what happened to Williams could very well happen to any of us. That our system could ignore the cries of the innocent, incarcerate, & ultimately murder them is frightening beyond words.

texas76132
December 14 2005, 10:03AM

That article was sick and disgusting!

I could care less about Tookie Williams. He is responsible for the murder of thousands of Black men. There are way too many grave markers of Black men who in cemeteries because of Tookie and the Cripes. I will not feel sorry for a man who preys on his own kind. I don't care for the death penalty, but I care less about people like Tookie. Black communities are still suffering because of him and his group this very day. The Crips continue to terrorize the people in the communities they live in. Their so-called truces against their communities is a joke. There is nothing that Tookie could could have done or said to me to justify what he did to the Black community. Nothing!

I guess you did not see the 60 minutes interview with Tookie last year. He was asked if he did it. He said no. Then he was asked if he knew who did it. His response was " I can't rat-out anyone." He obviously knew something about the crimes and didn't have the decency to give the victims' families peace of mind. He lived by the gang code of silence and died by it.

Tookie was a no good criminal from the start. His excuse that the gang grew too big for him to control is bunk! The NAACP, the SCLC and many other Black groups grew to big for one person to handle also. I don't see any of those groups beating,torturing and killing their own people for money, drugs and fun. That's because THEY WEREN'T CRIMINALS.

Please do not make Tookie Williams the next Martin Luther King. Tookie was no savior to Black people. He was quite the opposite. Do not put him on that same pedestal with Dr. King. Dr. King's memory deserves much better. Our image of what a Black man is also deserves better.

vulcan
December 14 2005, 10:55AM

Just how many gang bangers esp. the young ones know about Stanley Williams being "reformed" and against gangs now? If not for the recent media blitz I don't think that many people esp. young people know him. Let's be honest young people were more influenced by the media and people surrounding them; whatever books or messages Stanley Williams wrote probably had very little impact on the supposedly young people he tried to influence. If he was truly against gang now why wouldn't he break the code of silence and help the authorities to hunt down the killers who murdered the four people; not to mention encourage other gang members to do the same. There was a former female gang member of M13 - the notorious latino gang - who was murdered for cooperating with the authorities despite knowing the consequences of doing that. Now that took guts and more man than this murderous Stanley Williams could ever be.

Absolutelee
December 14 2005, 11:53AM

It's intersting to see the variation of the comments to this post. I am in the thought that he should have been granted clemency for the work he was doing from his prison cell. I agree that he had done a lot of harm in his lifetime as the co-founder of the crips street gang, but this man has been behind bars for 24 years, most of which he spoke out against gang violence, so I don't think that he can be blamed for the legacy of the Crips street gang nor for the violent crimes they continued to do once he was imprisoned.

I think on some levels people are oversimplifying the issue of what leads most young men in urban cities to violence and crime. We all know by now the toll that racism, poverty, drug prevalence in urban communities, inequitable access to education and economic resources has done to our community. I don't say this to absolve personal responsibility and a sense of humanity where we don't murder people, but I think we have to put violent behavior into context and look at it as the symptom of larger social issues.

This man did all he could to redeem the wrong he'd done in his earlier years. I disagree with those who say he didn't have much of an impact on antiviolence in urban communities. I was reading on his website where he has developed a couple of different anti-violence curriculums that have been used in communities around the country. In particular, his curriculums were put in use in over 20 high schools in Chicago that had a high incidence of violence.

While this man may have done a lot of wrong when he was free, I think that it's possible to reform, which is supposed to be the goal of prison. This man wasn't asking to be released from prison, but instead to live and continue to do the work of decreasing violence in urban communities, especially among Black's. Because of his status as a former gang member and co-founder of one of America's largest street gangs, he brings the kind of credibility and influence to his message that some parent's, social workers and other community members may not. So I believe that he deserved clemency, though that's now an impossibility.

His official website is: http://www.tookie.com/

I wrote more on my thougts on my blog @ http://lees-space.blogspot.com/

Kenneth Winfrey
December 14 2005, 12:04PM

I agree, "Absolutelee."

1. If he helped authorities find other criminals he knew, he would have been killed by one of them. Criminals connect beyond the walls of the prison and see to it that revenge is exacted upon anyone that gets in their way. I wonder if it was believed that he might reveal information knowing that he would die anyway? If a stay was granted, he would certainly have never "ratted-out" in order to save his own life.

2. Many comments imply that criminals could plan to do just enough crime and atonement to avoid the death penalty. Many seem to imagine a potential perpetrator thinking, for example: "I'll kill 4 people, but then, I'll save my own life by writing children's books." I think that's unrealistic, and says more about the criminal tendencies most people probably have within themselves. I don't think such criminals think that far ahead at all though. If they did, they'd probably pursue other more beneficial long-term goals. If he recognized his ability to write even as a path to atonement, then why would he murder anyone at all?

...and just why wasn't he encouraged to become a writer BEFORE he became a criminal?

3. I have always asked another simple question, but never gotten clear answers. That is: Is the criminal justice system designed to punish, rehabilitate or both? I feel for the loss of the victims but, after all, most criminals are mentally ill, at least to some degree. From anger management to schizophrenia, it's more likely that an overwhelming majority of incarcerated individuals actually needed mental health services before they committed their crimes. Moreover, the evil and violence perpetuated by gangs is clearly driven by the social dysfunctions of those communities. Maybe we should stop building so many new prisons, and start building community centers and schools to help end the hopelessness that creates gangs and people like Mr. Williams.

The question of whether or not the death penalty is good or bad is ultimately a moot one. There is no need for a death penalty when we build strong and supportive communities to begin with. An ounce of prevention is always better than a pound of a cure. Even still, if it had been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a white racist man had killed countless people of my race or family, I could find forgiveness for him, especially if I saw that he had found redemption--although that doesn't mean that I'd let him walk free from a jail either... I have lost one relative and 3 friends to murder, so I know myself well enough to say so. Even though no one can totally undo such horrible things, I just think that they are more valuable to society alive and helping to keep others from taking the same destructive path.

Mr. Williams' victims, nor anyone else, can ever be brought back to life by the taking of the life of another.

PHOENIX
December 14 2005, 1:03PM

..And if only YOU stood in the way of whatever a "reformed" Tookie wanted,in a dark alley what did you believe would happen? How about spending equal time worrying about the next victims of evil men.However,it is a consideration that the
Constitution is supposed to guarantee you:LIFE,LIBERTY,AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS...I imagine LIFE should be something the state should guarantee.

Derrick from Philly
December 14 2005, 1:08PM

Until we can improve the ills created by a racist and unjust society, somewhere in the 26th century, if y'all waitin' for it; we've got to be thoughtful about where we put our sympathies. There are some people on Death Row whom I don't believe belong there. But Mr Tookie and those like him are a menace to society (ain't that a film title?) Be they black menaces or white menaces--maybe even a few Gay menaces.

The Tookie Williamses make decisions that are harmful and cruel, decisions that hurt folks forever.

The message of Tookie's execution is not just about the hypocrisy of our society and state sanctioned killing. It's a message to young folks: you choose to destroy other people, then you choose self-destruction-- whether that destruction is at the hands of another street savage, a policeman, or the state. If you choose to be cruel and inhuman, why should the rest of us (black or white)give a damn about your fate?

vulcan
December 14 2005, 1:51PM

"If he helped authorities find other criminals he knew, he would have been killed by one of them. Criminals connect beyond the walls of the prison and see to it that revenge is exacted upon anyone that gets in their way."

Two of his gang members testified against him but they didn't get killed. Consider Stanley was Crips' cofounder he sure could have ordered those be killed.

"I wonder if it was believed that he might reveal information knowing that he would die anyway? If a stay was granted, he would certainly have never "ratted-out" in order to save his own life."
I can also argue that since he is going to get executed the chance of him cooperating and live is greater than getting killed by others.

Forever Barri
December 14 2005, 3:01PM

I repeat: Are we mourning "Tookie" because of his celebrity, his significant rehabilitation results or because some of us feel that perhaps he was innocent of his charges? Tookie was affiliated with a gang that takes innocent lives without regret. Would we debate over a member of the KKK group who was CONVICTED of murdering four minorities eventhough he proclaimed his innocence throughout his jail stay and at the sametime showed great promise that his rehabilitation minimized his hatred toward minorities? What is truly justice for death? It is so funny how these supposed GOD fearing men are so intuned with following the Bible, but as they as always do, they use the verbiage of the Bible to do their will. "Thou shall not Kill" Tookie was killed by the hands of man! No man has the right to take a life that he did not grant. The unbalance that gang warfare has placed in society only acts as the foundation of an unbalanced society as a whole! Protect your soul. Make these reckless parents pay the price for this unbalance. This evil began with them and their act of bringing uncivilized and unworthy lives into this already plagued world!

James Simpson
December 14 2005, 4:54PM

What is wrong with black people? Tookie Williams is a killer..A stone cold killer..he brutally murdered FOUR PEOPLE. He killed FOUR PEOPLE..who WILL NEVER COME BACK...How do you think the victims of this killer feel when they read people are supporting this killer? Williams has absolutely no remorse..He just doesn't care...and he didn't even have the HUMANITY to admit to his EVIL CRIMES...I will not support this killer and he got EXACTLY what he DESERVED. You live by the sword you die by the sword. I also think Arnold did the right thing...these pop stars like Foxx and that disgusting drug addict Snoop Dogg can go to hell. Williams deserved what he got. Now he knows what it feels like to take a life..

Laura
December 14 2005, 5:09PM

"May the victims rest in peace now."

nothing will happen with the victims either way, as they are already dead.

state-sponsored, tax-funded murder won't make one iota of difference to the victims.

Minister Faust
December 14 2005, 5:39PM

Hotep, Brother,

I’ve placed a link to your Afrikan-themed blog on mine (check under “League of Extraordinary Bro-Logs). My site is called THE BRO-LOG (http://www.ministerfaust.blogspot.com), which contains Africentric articles, images and audio + video links, and includes a link to my Africentric radio programme THE TERRORDOME and its archive.

If you’d place a link to my site on your site, I’d be obliged.

Minister Faust

un_escritor_ negro
December 14 2005, 7:26PM

If nothing off sets the taking of a life, then where does that leave the State of California and any other state that executes? Maybe some of you think because a murder is state sponsored, it's okay? Just remember, slavery used to be a state sponsored institution. Beware of the State!

jazzi
December 14 2005, 11:32PM

Ok, so what exactly should we do with those who value life so little that killing another human being is no different to them than mashing an ant? Do we "rehabilitate" them? Medicate them to make them nice & docile? How about electro therapy to shock the killer out of them? Who determines if or when they are "changed", cured, healed? What happeneds then? Do we release them back into society inspite of the fact that they have killed? Haven't we done that in the past with tragic results? Do we allow them to create children's books, cartoons, & actions figures & just say "Sorry" & then all is well? What do we say of the victims, to their families? Too bad? Deal with it? Get over it? Move on? Let it go? Can't uncrack an egg? Life sucks? Shit happens?

The way some people talk, we shouldn't have prisons, either. Again, what do we do with those who commit crime? Everybody isn't going to be "rehabilitated". Everyone isn't going to change. A lot of prisoners themselves will tell you that if release from prison, they'd victimize again. And you can't blame it all on society, poverty, racism, mental illness, a crazy alcoholic mother, an absent father or Uncle Joe "messing" with you when you were a child. Some people are predatory in nature. They're sociopaths & will split your throat over nothing as soon as they'll split open a water melon. Sorry, but people like that should be locked away & if they kill, take 'em out!

And I don't see how anyone can compare slavery to the death penalty. Slavery was a state sponsored institution but it was wrong, no pros or cons about it. The death penalty on the other hand is an attemp by the system to punish those who would kill for the hell of it. It can be debated whether or not the death penalty is humane or whether it deters crime (I don't think it does, by the way) but who in their right mind can make an argument for slavery?

Kenneth Winfrey
December 15 2005, 12:31AM

I think "jazzi" has some good questions. We have neglected rehabilitation for so long that we haven't gotten any better at it at all. Lord knows we have also had some pretty tragic failures. Time and time again criminals are released only to commit the same terrible crime again, if not worse. I also feel that prisons are a necessary evil in civilized society. I also agree that victims need some kind of closure, and that not every criminal can be rehabilitated--or even that the definition of the word will ever be truly decided. We definitely need accountability in society.

I just don't know if the death penalty has to be part of it. So many of them have been exonerated, but there is no way to correct it because they are dead. Even with the death penalty, I also think that each case is as unique as the victims and the criminal. Not all criminals turn around and try to keep others from coming the same crimes like Mr. Williams did. I don't know that he should have been set free, but I think I'd like to have seen more books, speeches, or whatever from someone who could express (at least some) regret for a life of crime in the "first person." The criminal justice system should be capable of distinguishing between a Mr. Williams and say, a more threatening Jeffery Dahmer. I also think that victims should be heard. Some choose to forgive, others don't. It should be a consideration--not the only one though...

I still do wonder, however, why America, the country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom," incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement. I don't dismiss how victims feel. I don't want to just make excuses for criminals either. However, I think that we just get so caught up in retribution (the symptoms) that we ignore the real problems where they began (the causes).

After all, is the death penalty a true deterrent? It if was, why didn't it keep Mr. Williams from ever committing his crimes? Are we just institutionalizing members of our society? We see so many go right back to jail when they're released because they are no longer capable or motivated to learn to live on the outside. Are just creating more efficient criminals by exposing them to the violence and dangers within prisons as well as more dangerous criminals they can learn from? I don't know exactly what the answers are either, but as long as we keep doing what we're doing, can we honestly expect any of it to improve?

Octavio
December 15 2005, 10:21AM

Jazzi = Truth. If we have such a big problem with the death penalty, why lock people up at all? Who is man to take a life?...Well in that case who in the hell is man to control a life for 23 hours of the day? Honestly people, we like to throw in this religious bit, "thou shall not kill" but if you simultaneously support stem cell research or abortion, well there's a small conflict of interest, don't u think? I'm not religious by far, but I don't think the bible says at what point a life becomes significant. Most importantly, how else was this man to pay for all the evil he's sown? I don't doubt that he was remorseful for his actions, but that doesn't foot the bill. This was a man that INTENTIONALLY did the ignorant shit that he did, and yes our society needs to get to the root of the problem, but in the meantime people need to be punished.

Octavio
December 15 2005, 11:50AM

One more thing...

Let's imagine that the terrorists on board the planes flewn into the twin towers lived and then devoted the rest of their life to speaking against terrorism...should these people not be taken out? Would our sentiments be the same? Why should a country ever go to war? Why was Paris on fire a couple of weeks ago? Why is australia out of control now? Stanley "Tookie" Williams' actions were no different from a terrorist (excluding magnitude...kinda), and he paid for it on Dec. 13th.

Consigliere
December 15 2005, 12:27PM

Hasta La Vista Tookie. Good riddance. Why do we even contemplate saving people like this? Why? The morality of the death penalty is questionable. The deterent effect to the criminal element is suspect but what is utterly ridiculous is that the LEFT in this country and some Hollywood Elites with suspect standing put such tremendous horse power behind a failed effort to save someone who arguably the death penalty was ideally designed for. We as a society are better off without Tookie Williams period.

NYC Consigliere
December 15 2005, 12:32PM

Hasta La Vista Tookie. Good riddance. Why do we even contemplate saving people like this? Why? The morality of the death penalty is certainly questionable. It's deterent effect to the criminal element is suspect at best, but what is utterly ridiculous is that the LEFT in this country and some Hollywood Elites with suspect standing (Snoop Dog) put such tremendous horse power behind a failed effort to save someone who arguably the death penalty was ideally designed for. We as a society are better off without Tookie Williams period. And I do not need a civics lesson from Snoop Dog when his entire "art form" prostitutes itself off of the proliferation of "Gangsta" culture, even if Snoop Dog is at best a "faux gangsta" or poser. Tookie's dead and that is a good thing people.

un_escritor_negro
December 15 2005, 2:25PM

For over 400 years an argument was made for slavery. Some of the people who made the argument were the founding fathers of America. No one called them crazy then or now. Instead, statues were erected in their honor, libraries and schools named after them and the country has been sniffing their cherry tree lies for centuries.

How many Africans were *murdered* during the Middle Passage?

No one ever talks about executing America for the capital crime of slavery. Well, not in mixed company anyway.

Basically, America got off with, "Oops! My bad. No reparations. Let's move on, niggers!"

The point: Arguments can be made for rights as well as wrongs.

The death penalty is wrong.

Not because Stanley Williams was innocent or because he was a changed man. But because: "Nothing offsets the taking of a life."

No one has the right. The edict applies to all of us and most definitely to the State of America.

Cold blooded murderer or proven saint?

It's about being morally and ethically consistent.

How can anyone, but specifically Black folk, grant THIS country the moral high ground to assume the position of executioner?

If execution is the just punishment for taking a life, then America has the bloodiest hands in the universe.

Texas76132
December 15 2005, 3:53PM

No one disagrees with what you said about the treatment of Black people in the past. But what are you saying? Are you saying because there was slavery, racism and the KKK for the past 400 years, that us Black people have to let the Tookie Williams' of the world terrorize us for the next 400 years? Are you suggesting that Black people not judge people like him, his gangs, and allow them to terrorize us and our communities because White people did it in the past, therefore we should allow people like Tookie to do the same thing for the next 400 years! Do you mean that we should allow the Black thugs to cause harm to us tit-for-tat because White people did it.

Let me set you straight. Black people did not did back and allow White people to run all over us. That is the reason why this county has civil rights laws, hate crimes laws and various other laws. You talk as if Black people enjoyed slavery and did nothing about it so how dare us Black people for assuming a moral high ground to say anything. In case you don't know it. Black people don't want crime or criminals in their neighborhoods - no matter what color they are. So based on or past history of fighting back against White racism, we have have every right to fight back against Black on Black crime and not feel guilty. If you think the Black community is going to sit back and allow crime to run unchecked in our own community by our own people because White people don't like us, your are crazy.

Now you know the reason white there isn't a massive outcry over Tookie's execution By the Black community. We don't care who you are. If you hurt us, don't expect us to cry a river for you. My streets aren't flooded with tears from Black people crying or mourning over Tookie. So I can't be too wrong.

Please don't suggest that people like Tookie are lost souls because no one cared enough to care about him to show him the way. To do that would mean the there was not one person in the Black community who cared about him to be a role model. Our community is not that cruel. He made is choices and that's that.

Charles Ward
December 15 2005, 3:56PM

I am a daily reader here and I am always challenged to open my eyes to some things from time to time. I do not like when there is a "snapshot" of a case that can not be condensed in a few paragraphs. This is not fair to all parties involved (family, judge, jury etc). I could leave out or add a few words here and there to make the case in the opposite direction that Keith has taken it (please know that I am not calling Mr. Boykin a liar). If you are truly concerned get the court records and other essential evidence. I am weary of these sound bits that polarize a group or an issue.

BTW: I am for the death penalty; I am for it to be swiftly and efficiently as 20 years waiting to die after found guilty is far too long as it absorbs monies from other area of our society. I am tired of “black” groups saying that the killing of another black man is wrong simply because he is “black”. If you are going to be upset about Tookie then you better be upset about “all” death row inmates. Also it is lame to place “God” as the ultimate measure of justice; we live in man’s world with a sprinkling of God to make us fearful and respectful of something greater than ourselves.

FRE.
December 15 2005, 4:21PM

Although I am against the death sentence, I think that the governator did the right thing by permitting the execution to proceed.

The remedy is to change the law, NOT to stay executions for specific criminals. Either that, or the governator should stay ALL executions.

The fact that he founded a gang is not relevant to his sentence. All that is relevant is whether he was guilty of the crimes for which he was sentenced.

Those of us who oppose the death sentence oppose it even if the executed criminal deserved it.

cmoney
December 15 2005, 10:42PM

"Texas", you hit it right on the head. Just because Blacks have been victimized by white racists in this country does not mean we should have to put up with being victimized by Blacks who could care less about their own community. We need to start raising our damn kids right and stop making excuses for bad behavior. We can least afford to be victims of crime, yet we are supposed to accept criminality because the criminal justice system is biased against Blacks. Bullshit! If you don't want to be part of the criminal justice system, here's an idea--stop committing crimes!!! Stop selling and buying and using drugs. Stop stealing. Stop assaulting each other. That would keep 85% of us out of the system. Yes, some will be railroaded because of discrimination and just plain old bad luck. But most of the guys in the criminal justice system did SOMETHING illegal to get themselves in that system. They deserve justice. They deserve fair treatment. But they don't deserve a free pass just because they are Black. If you kill, be prepared to pay the price--and don't bitch about the system being unfair after you got yourself into it. You knew that before you pulled the trigger.

Isle Apollo
December 18 2005, 11:19PM

Fellow bodybuilder and former Mr. Universe Rick Wayne, a Black Caribbean man claimed in a biographical book of Arnie that he once told Rick during the anti-apartheid movement era in South Africa that Blacks should be happy where they are, for if they were to run their own country, South Africa would go down the drains; he would also throw around the nigger word like no big deal in front of other Black bodybuilders, he even estranged and brought to tears a former Black friend of his through his rabid racist remarks.

How racis... err.. thoughtful of Arnie on the well-being of South Africa and his profound analysis of Black Leaders... he must have given a standing ovation when Mandela became President.

Minister Randall Mitchell
December 19 2005, 2:50PM

On Tookie:

After burying 200 Black youth we all are not better off by his execution-we are the poorer for it. Perhaps when confronted by someone who did not get the benefit of his works-we will better understand the contribution. By then the victim will have an opportunity to debate it with Tookie. The judgement made all of us the poorer-the youth even more poored as an example of change ( positive change ) was destroyed-you tell me what kind of message is that to send to someone thinking about changing within the criminal justice system, or the streets.

We all loss when we loss Tookie Williams-as none of us can stand in judgement of him-none of us are God.

Just Pitiful!

Laura
December 21 2005, 2:46AM

Isle Apollo said, "he would also throw around the nigger word like no big deal in front of other Black bodybuilders, he even estranged and brought to tears a former Black friend of his through his rabid racist remarks."

lol well his name literally translated means "Arnold Blacknigger." and even perhaps Arnold Niggernigger.

perhaps he felt entitled. groan....he is such a nasty conservative slime.