And Now Back To The Down Low

a
October 28 2005, 11:02AM

Keith not again! I, unlike you (I mean damn, did they not read your book)am unwilling to give this film the benefit of the doubt! Instead of them making a whole long ass boring movie about the DL, why don't they be revolutionary and have the wife say, oh, so what. My husband likes to sleep with men every ounce in a while, as long as I and he are being safe, what’s the problem? Its Two thousand five, when are we going to accept that sexuality is a free flowing thing, and stop demonizing those who are willing to see their lives in color, its not so black and white

cmoney
October 28 2005, 11:14AM

The trailer is well made and the actors are handsome (OK, HOT!) Then we get bombarded with the phoney stats on HIV and DL men. This could be a good movie, but I wouldn't want to support it if it's all about propaganda against gay men. I hope they get their facts "straight" before it goes into full production or hits the theaters. We have enough problems achieving equality without DL hysteria being whipped up by Hollywood.

yusef
October 28 2005, 12:12PM

Well actually the trailer seemed kool....but Keith I have to say as a gay man in DC...I really dont agree with the statistics overall...number 1. 1 out of 20 men (gay & str8) are infected with HIV...thats really way off base....i believe its more like 10 out of 20....cmon people i can count 20 right now easily....2. the DL thing is bigger than most people agree upon....i would have to use your hands and feet to count how many married or men that have girls have approached me and other friends of mine....its mind boggling...just get on any train or bus in the DC area...but see you have to know what to look for....i can spot them a mile away....so i dont understand the downplay of the downlow....I have a very good female friend and i can tell you everytime she meets a guy she brings him over my house exclusively to get my "professional" opinion...the girl is terrified of dating DC men....I have told her how unheathly this is but i truly understand....there has been more than once that i told her "let that one go" he shook my hand and locked eyes with me a lil too much.......So Keith either get out there a lil m ore or hook up with someone from the hood of any urban area and you will be amazed at what you find out....the statistics are way off base.

Kenneth Winfrey
October 28 2005, 12:21PM

"A," I agree that we need to avoid reacting to same-sex relationships only in the context of HIV infection and learn to accept that people have sex with each other, often regardless of gender. Nevertheless, with false statistics and the obviously extraordinary treatment of his homosexual affair (versus a heterosexual one), the trailer exhausts any benefits of doubt to ever, ever, ever be had! There will be plenty of "magpies" who'll see the trailer, believe that statistic at the end, and never see the movie itself. Yet, they'll be on the phone to share what they think they've learned.

It's situations like this that have me thinking that the conspiracy theorists are right about attempts at destroying the image of the Black man. But this is beyond that kind of explanation. Bill Duke is Black. So the only reason I could come up with that he'd be doing this is because he doesn't mind contributing to the demonization of Black gay men to make money. Or, maybe he's just funded by this largely white-owned media structure, which own the news and entertainment outlets and have incredible influence over the way we think... Regardless, obviously, someone is quite interested in fueling the fears about the downlow Black women (with movie tickets in hand) have. "Infotainment" or not, those who see this are going to believe it's just plain education. Since when did we need a word like "Infotainment" to describe engaging and informative pieces anyway? It's either educational or its not. It's either fiction, or it's not, and 70% of "these" women being infected with HIV through same-sex adultery is fiction. It's fiction that isn't hardly entertaining. It's more like what my grandmother would call "burning bread" on Black women.

This is the perfect example of the self-destructive behavior that has added insult to injury since slavery. It's something I may let myself ignore for a while from time to time. But the truth remains is that Black men, gay or straight, are still perceived as malicious, sinister, dangerous, hyper-sexed Mandingo predators who will have sex with anything that stands still long enough. It makes me turn my head from any woman who might flirt, or think I'm flirting, and turns me cynical about the sincerity of those who do take an interest in me. The DL hype has me feeling anxious (to say the least)and blamed, and sets my adrenaline off because I want to flee (like a real criminal would) from a society that is learning to believe that I am the cause of HIV among Black women, or that all gay Black men are predators when it comes to Black America's husbands and boyfriends.

At the moment, I've got to decide what I'm going to do when my female relatives start passing this bit of DL data around via email, with me on the list, like they've done before. I can only believe that they are hoping that I'll contribute to the dialog with some juicy first-person anecdotes. Unfortunately, the only ones I have are about gay men who were infected by their own same-sex cheating lovers...

alicia banks
October 28 2005, 12:36PM

ditto
i am bored with the DL bs
ie
why so few/O black films about deadbeat dads, child support, het infidelity, academic and financial revolution in black america etc....

shame!!!

peace
ab

James
October 28 2005, 12:50PM

I am so sick of this DL crap. Why do our relationships always have to be portrayed in a sinister manner? Why are we only acknowledged within the context of HIV/AIDS or deceptive behavior? NEXT.
Let's have a movie about people content and happy with who they are. Instead of INVISIBLE, how about INVINCIBLE for a change!

Michelle
October 28 2005, 4:18PM

Here's my take on the 2% vs the 70%

We will never know the true number because most of these men are not being honest with the women they are sleeping with. I think the 2% comes from the percentage of women who actually know the man's sexual preference after they've confronted him and he told the truth.

The reason for the 70%? Could it be that years of research and data show that women contract HIV from men on a much higher scale/rate than men contracting it from women? And the reason for this is - that HIV/AIDS started off as a disease that developed between men having sex with one another.

Unless this changes, and data/research shows that women started HIV/AIDS. Men will always be the ones responsible for this epidemic.

I'm sorry Keith, I'm inclined to beleive the 70% than the 2%. While the man's sexual preference seems to be on everyone's mind therefore DL must equal INSTANT HIV. It's comes down to not having plain ol' safe sex and being upfront with your "STD Free List".

My brother is a prime example of all of this. He's not telling how he got it nor is he telling any of his future victims. It's really sad...

I viewed the trailer 2 weeks ago. I am very interested in seeing the movie. I didn't recall the stats @ the end of the trailer.

Instead of focusing on the stats being wrong why not look at this movie as an opening for dialog between men and women so that we can move past this whole DL drama?

I think TRUE gay men are offended by the DL drama because no matter how you look at it, the straight world will ALWAYS put them in the TRUE gay man's world.

There is no separatism. It just stuns me how a woman can be so open with being bisexual and a BLACK man can't. If a man sleeps with women and men - then he's labeled as gay. If a woman sleeps with men and women she is labeled bisexual.

That's why I think gay men have an issue with the DL. The BISEXUAL man is being dumped into their world and they don't want him.

blacklatina
October 28 2005, 7:13PM

I think that the trailer is great! I don't think it is a negative reflection on gay men because dl men don't claim to be GAY at all. Gay men that aren't ashamed of their sexuality are beautiful and courageous especially gay men of color. With all the negative attention gays get, a man of color that is bold enough to admit that he's gay is a true gem. It's already difficult to be a person of color in a racist society but to openly proclaim your true self takes courage! I am going to support the movie because it's the downlow men that are causing so much pain in the lives of many not GAY men! If I were a homosexual woman that met a foine man like KEITH BOYKIN or his partner, I am sure he would have no problem letting me down easy and not playing me for a fool like these dl men do women. Okay, let me get off my soap box with this final note....down low men and women are a SUBCULTURE who claim to have no association with us GAYS and guess what, we don't want to be associated with them either!

blacklatina
October 28 2005, 7:31PM

***CORRECTION***** If I were a heterosexual woman....

chris-leo
October 28 2005, 8:10PM

OH WELL, it's halloween and everyone's looking for a monster.

WRAP IT UP.

i caught the 'Invisible' trailer a few days ago, and it made me cringe. HERE WE GO AGAIN. some people won't be happy until we're in internment camps. but then again, maybe this is a fight we need to have in public.

WRAP IT UP!!!

maybe bill duke needs to sit next to keith boykin on OPRAH, so we can hash this mess out.

and while we're at it, somebody might want to tell our sons and daughters that - unless they are a statistical anomoly or a rape victim - if they don't want HIV, they don't have to get it.

PLEASE, WRAP IT UP!!!

from bad needles to jailhouse conjugal visits to everything in between, one brutal truth is that people are not wrapping it up before they stick it in.

does bill duke's wonky statistic take into account that same girl we see on Springer and Maury who takes the paternity tests with five guys waiting in the wings only to find that NONE of them is the father? of course that movie would present the stereotypical black female caricature and be just as bad.

and as long as people hold to the hazy, romantic lunacy that "straight" men can't give it to them or that 'monogamy' protects them, we're in for a long, dark winter.

WRAP IT THE F$#k UP!!!!

i'll watch 'Invisible'. maybe there's a surprise - maybe it won't feed the hysteria. by the looks of the trailer, the intention is to scare and to scar. but we'll see.

if it's anything like the trailer, 'Invisible' is going to add to the climate of fear - and it'll drive more self-loathing guys into the downward spiral of NOT coming out, drinking, abusing their wives and girlfriends and having more impromptu, unsafe suicidal sex. he won't try to have something steady with one guy because he doesn't feel he deserves what other people have, because he never listened to mister rogers when he said, 'you're fine just the way you are.' oh, and somewhere in there, he's going to try and say to himself that this is the very last time he'll have sex with a man, so why have a condom in his wallet(?) he'll make bargains with the universe, pray to something he calls jesus and try to mcclurkin himself out of it. it won't work. he'll hate himself more. and on and on and on. blah blah blah.

america seems fixated on the black, sexual male monster, so this diseased D.L. character is just more of the same. D.L. sells.

seems to me the way out of this is to love ourselves, protect ourselves, stop blaming, and stop falling for the latest fear fad.

WRAP THAT S#!T UP!!!!!

-chris-leo

p.s.: and GIRLS??? if you want a baby, get your man tested. have the baby, then go back to wrapping it up.

edwin greene
October 29 2005, 9:54AM

Remember when the 1992 movie Basic Instinct came out, some white gays/lesbians were very upset about how they felt they were protrayed in that movie and so they picketed the movie.

We (black gays/lesbians) can do the same thing to this movie, if that incorrect (and extremely inflammatory) statistic appears anywhere in the movie when it comes out. Misinformation, especially about something as important as this, has to be challenged the first time it happens (or else it will happen again and again).

This movie, or any movie with this kind of misinformation, could do to the image and psyches of black gay/bisexual men what the movie, Birth of a Nation, did to black people as a whole almost a century ago. Bill Dukes' feet (and the movie company backing this movie) should be held to the fire on this one.

Regan DuCasse
October 29 2005, 1:01PM

Information concerning STD and the populations most at risk MUST be accurate.
Using this MISINFORMATION as a cover to further indict GAY men, will only point fingers in the wrong direction.
The same behavior that has 70% black children born out of wedlock is what increases infection rates among women.

It's about unprotected, promiscuous, non monogamous sex that causes the spread.

Laura
October 29 2005, 11:55PM

Blacklatina, i'm glad you brought out the issue of DL women.

They can be every bit as annoying, homophobic and self hating as their male counterparts and need to be called on the carpet (a little homophobic pun for all the misogynists out there lol).

They are quite willing to use us when it's time for a bit of frivolity and irresponsible fun (try getting one to use a dental dam, they'll totally freak out lol); it should be made clear to people like that that there are consequenses for being a hater and a user.

Scarpien
October 30 2005, 4:15AM

If memory serves me correctly,
1) this whole HIV/AIDS epidemic all started with men having unprotected sex with other men.
2) straight women only became susceptible to this disease when their bisexual and/or DL husband/boyfriend--after having unprotected sex with other men--came home and proceeded to have unprotected sex with them. So, basically bisexual and/or DL men provided the "bridge" for the disease to infect the straight population.
3) the disease was also able to spread throughout the population by way of drug users sharing needles with other users who were infected with the HIV/AIDS virus.
Having said that, I would say that the general population's fears toward bisexual and/or DL men--be he Black OR white--are justified given the fact that most can't even bring themselves to be upfront WITH themselves regarding their sexuality. So, how can we in all honesty expect them to be straightforward with anyone else with this information, let alone their girlfriend(s) or wife who they claim to love?
Sitting here arguing back and forth over statistics or who's responsible for introducing the virus to the wider community really doesn't make any sense to me since that isn't the issue here. The issue is that HIV/AIDS is on the rise and countless people continue to die!! And they're NOT dying because they contracted HIV/AIDS from statistics OR the bisexual or DL guy(s) who spread the virus to the general population in the first instance; I think I can safely say there's a good chance those guys are already dead. Therefore, for those who still haven't figured it out yet, men AND women are dying because they, for whatever reason, insist on engaging in unprotected sex. Right now, EVERYONE is suspect so you gotta wrap it up! Trust me, you don't have to be too concerned about statistics because the more people contract this disease and die the more accurate statistics will become; in essence, statistics WILL take care of himself. We, therefore, need to take care of people, spread the word about this disease until the day comes when no one else is a statistic.

jazzi
October 30 2005, 7:56AM

AMEN, SCARPIEN!!! While people in our community continue to play russian roulette with theirs & other peoples lives, most of us want to continue majoring on minors, like statistics & political correctness. If you ask me, that there is probably the main reason why the message of safe sex isn't really getting across. No one wants to stand up & say what really needs to be said for fear of offending the gay community & being labeled a homophobe. It's like theres some stupid political motivation behind it. People can come up with a million & one reasons why people won't have safe sex & it's really beyond stupid to even try to do that in this day & age. It's like knowing a train is coming but we won't get off the tracks. We're destroying ourselves.

We can haggle all day long about numbers & statistics but it won't do a damn thing to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. We can tip-toe through the tulips, not wanting to hurt anyones feelings but that won't save lives. The bottom lines is if you're having sex, gay or straight, use a condom. If you don't, you have no one to blame but yourself if you contract HIV/AIDS. As for this whole "DL" thing, I really don't know where to begin. I understand how difficult it is for some to come out, to be upfront & honest about where we really stand. Society doesn't always make this easy. In spite of "Noah's Arc" & "Queer Eye", we're still not there. Untill society changes, there will always be men who have sex with each other on the sneak. Even so, where are your morals? How can you have unsafe sex with another man & then proceed to do the same thing with an unsuspecting wife or girlfriend? HOW CAN YOU?! "She shoulda asked or made me use a condom" is the first thing a lot of people will say but, dumbass, she's your wife. She trusts you. She's not expecting you to go out there & do something that could put her life in jeopardy. What wife is going to tell her husband to use a condom? Why should she even have to? Nine to ten, if she thought you we're sexing around she wouldn't sleep with you in the first place. Duh! Take some responsibility.

Don't quote numbers & statistics to me when you've got people walking head long to the slaughter. HIV is 100% preventable. AIDS is avoidable. Avoid it. Simple as that.

cmoney
October 30 2005, 10:04AM

Good points Jazzi. I just wonder how many DL guys will go out on a date with their "girl for the moment", see Invisible, go home and have sex. Do you think he's actually going to say, "Umm, after seeing this movie about DL guys and AIDS and all that, Honey, maybe I should use a condom?" Of course not!! That would be like admitting that you are DL and DL guys are always in denial. If the "girl for the moment" has any sense, however, whe will insist that he use a condom or get out of bed. Unfortunately, I think it will have to be up to women to save themselves from these fools.

edwin greene
October 30 2005, 10:48AM

I don't think that allowing an untrue statistic to go unchallenged into the world is going to "save lives". Is it merely a matter of "political correctness" or of "not wanting to be accused of homophobia" to point out that less than 2% of HIV positve women claim that their infection resulted from unprotected sex with a bisexual man? I don't think so.

Unknown numbers of straight black men and straight black women are now infected with the HIV virus, for whatever reason, and these individuals have infected (and are infecting)other straight blacks with no help from "evil" black gay or bisexual men.

Everyone, it seems, wants to point the finger at the "licentious" sexual activities of gay/bisexual men. The rampant sexual "promiscuity" among many in the straight black community, however, is the dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about. A survey of thousands of black women, the results of which were published in the 10-04 issue of Ebony magazine, revealed that almost half of the black women surveyed had cheated on their partners.

My point is that the demonization of black bisexual men (with gay men caught in the crosshairs) based on false (and I believe malicious) information is not an acceptable way to alert black people to the threat of HIV/AIDS. Individual responsibility, regardless of sexual identity, is key.

Roger
October 30 2005, 11:18AM

Who exactly is this movie targeted to? It seems like its the same DL-baiting people that have dominated the dialogue-as always-wishing to make a quick buck by exploiting a terribly misunderstood issue.

I'm really getting tired of Hollywood (including black Hollywood) throwing our community bones and force-feeding us bad "facts." It just looks like another tired depiction of what they think dominates our lives.

Laura
October 30 2005, 4:51PM

"The rampant sexual "promiscuity" among many in the straight black community, however, is the dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about."

you can say that again!

we all know that so-called "heterosexuals", our natural superiors, will screw anything the cat drags in and they revolt at using protection, too.

but the queers, namely our men, are EXPECTED to play the scapegoat role for the spread of HIV. strange that there is no moral imperative for "heterosexuals" to use condoms/protection like there is for gay men. heterosexual germs are superior to gay ones, i guess lol

people are so g-d ignorant in this country...we have people in this very thread who STILL in 2005 deliberately ignore that all over the planet AIDS is spread primarily by either heterosexual f@cking and drug abuse.

any excuse to bash the queers, though, even putting their own lives at risk by ignoring the facts. too bad a lot of non-straights buy into it.

Laura
October 30 2005, 5:12PM

"If a woman sleeps with men and women she is labeled bisexual."

actually Michelle, we're still labeled "sluts" lol. "Bisexual" is still a euphemism for immoral sleep-around jezebel, homewrecker, can i watch, etc. same old bi-phobia for men and women, but Black men have always gotten it worse than any other people on earth. the AIDS crisis is no different in this regard.

old old old stereotypes, inherited from ignorant puritanical conservative christian hypocritical moral codes.

Thril
October 30 2005, 8:43PM

I have also tried to email Bill Duke. However, I recieved an error and the email couldn't go thru.

Zac
October 31 2005, 9:55PM

Keith, I'd love to support this film if they do not include those stats. It makes me sick that a Black man would do somehting like this movie that will inevitable further marginalize not just gay, bi, same-gender-loving (did I get all of them) Black men , but Black men in general. The theme here is that you because you can't tell who is gay all Black men are suspect of having HIV/AIDS and worse yet spreading it to women - Black women. This makes me sick. I wish I knew what to do about it. Any suggestions?

Octavio
November 1 2005, 2:49AM

I almost got excited about the film until it became blatantly obvious that Bill Durke is making AIDS and homosexuality synonymous. If that is not enough he further exacerbates the issue with the statement, "women, mostly african american women don't know these men's secret." Are you kidding me?! At best, this is pure exploitation, and if nothing else, black women should be offended, because it essentially says that you all are less informed than your counterparts. With the current state of the black community...the black family, villanizing homosexuality is not the answer, especially when we have so much to contribute. We are your high school valedictorians, your ivy league scholars, your doctors, your lawyers, your actors, your artists, and your entertainers, but more importantly we are your siblings, your children, and your parents. Acceptance is the only solution to this downlow behemoth that is fueled by people like Monsieur Durke.

Lastly to "Scarpien" who posted on Oct 30th articulating the following:

"If memory serves me correctly,
1) this whole HIV/AIDS epidemic all started with men having unprotected sex with other men."

Are YOU kidding me?! I'm not sure who has made me more livid. I think it's time for you to drink a cup or two of green tea. What memory in your synaptic spaces recalls the "HIV/AIDS epdiemic" being started by unprotected sex between men?! I haven't entered med school yet, but I'm sure they won't teach me that viruses spontaneously generate when two men have unprotected sex! After placing blame on "bisexual and/or DL men" you go on to chastise everyone about "Sitting here arguing back and forth over statistics or who's responsible for introducing the virus to the wider community really doesn't make any sense to me since that isn't the issue here." So what I can deduce from your position is that YOU don't make sense to you. You are absolutely right about AIDS being everyone's problem, but you can't simultaneously mumble under your breath (invalidly) that gay men are the cause without perpetuating division.

Octavio
November 1 2005, 3:24AM

If I hear another one of you asinine individuals say that AIDS came from gay men, I'm gonna purchase a shotgun and save the world...ignorance kills (didn't u see CRASH?)...not AIDS. Please take 30 seconds and educate yourself:

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9901/31/aids.origin/

Now if you wanna make the absurd argument that gay men are the only ones that interact with chimps or that gay men sleep with chimps...well you'd sound a helluva lot better...particularly "Michelle" and "Scarpien" and "Jazzi" for agreeing with "scarpien"

Scarpien
November 1 2005, 6:13PM

You're right Octavio; ignorance does in fact kill. The number of infections/deaths from this disease does support that statement. So, on that note I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Now, regarding your take on my remarks. This whole AIDS/HIV epidemic did start with guys having unprotected sex with each other. If you look up the word "epidemic" you'd find: "an outbreak of a contagious disease that spreads rapidly and widely" or "spreading rapidly and extensively by infection and affecting many individuals in an area or a population at the same time." So, even though the virus itself may have started with chimps, they weren't the cause of the virus spreading to and among humans at the rate that it has been spreading. How the virus was passed from chimpanzees to humans is up for speculation no doubt but the spread AMONG humans is due overwhelmingly, in the initial years, to men having unprotected sex with other men. HENCE, the word epidemic. Having said that, if you still feel like saving the world go ahead man.
One final note, that green tea was great! lol

Laura
November 1 2005, 9:34PM

hey scarpien - you're not still call it "the gay cancer" are you? lol

your version doesn't consider the spread of AIDS and HIV in Africa and Asia. why?

Scrappy
November 2 2005, 2:08PM

I have something to say regarding black ministers. "He with out sin let him cast the first stone." "If God can use a jackass he can use you and I." That's how I feel, that's whats wrong with us know. We are doing just what the white man wants us to do. We can't stick together as a people. There are church folks and there are christians. Which one are you? It's not about T.D. Jakes, it's about getting your own soul salvation. What ever he is doing he has to face God on Judgement day not you. You have to face God about your own wrong doings. The bible says,"Study and show thy self approved." It's not for none of us to judge, it's for god to judge. So stop pointing the finger because you still have three pointing back at you. If fear no man, the only man I fear is God.