The Big Gay Outing Debate

J Dennis
October 4 2005, 4:51PM

We have a responsibility to hold them to the standard that they project, Especially when they are PIMPING us for their advancement of their own agenda. We have prayed and ask GOD for strength to handle these hypocrites. They make the rules we are just playing their game. We are not silent anymore. NO MORE SUCKING DICK IN THE NAME OF JESUS!!!! IT IS ALL THE SAME

cody
October 4 2005, 5:18PM

Dartmouth, huh?

Clinton Administration, huh?

Lawyer, huh?

Bringing up Sponge-Bob and Tinkly-Winkly diminish your credibility, boy.

Well, Keith, I agree with you when I do, and I don't when I don't.

You outted no one. Those kats were/are not gay. They just dislike homosexuals. The two do not equal with anyone's twisted logic.

You were trying to smear them with a gay brush hoping to hurt them.

The implication there is that there is something wrong, sinister or defiled by being gay. That plays directly into their hatred of gays.

What a vicious self-loathing cycle.

An analogy would be, "I hate being black so I call you black to demean you."

You could have exposed these folks' religious hypocrisy or their Anti-American 'All Men Are Created Equal' position. That worked for Lincoln and MLK. Ain't it a good enough argument for you?

jazzi
October 4 2005, 7:32PM

I don't think it's ever right to expose what someone is doing in their private life. If they choose to put it out there, fine. But to force someone out is wrong. As I posted last week, what if any one of the ministers profiled was gay? How does that help the cause? Exposing hypocrisy can be a full time job as the world is full of forked tongued, two faced liars. Hypocrisy has a funny way of exposing itself. What's done in secret will be shouted from the roof tops. Just ask Tim Delay (or is it Tom?).

It's just like Blacks always crying about how hard things are for them & the white man is holding us back instead of thinking of ways to make life better for ourselves. We have AIDS/HIV & other problems to be more concerned with. I agree that people need to be called out & held accountable but....I don't know. Keith, if this is how you choose to fight, do you.

Mel Smith
October 4 2005, 7:33PM

Cody, what's up? It seems to me that you have serious issues with people on this site.

Nathans
October 4 2005, 7:37PM

Thank God that for every inane and annoying people like Cody there are many right thinking and understanding people.

Keith I applaud your efforts and I agree whole heartedly. Gay is not negative but being gay and promoting homophobia is, as is being straight and wanting to keep your life private while attacking other adults for their private behaviours. Even if these guys are all str8 the fact that their private sexual lives are up for discussion should give them pause and tune them into what is like to be a victim of homophobia!

Keep up the good work keith!

dondon009
October 4 2005, 7:40PM

THANK YOU, KEITH!

I have posted several items on my blog regarding the reasons why I out public and religious figures and I completely agree with you! I out then because of the bigotry and the hypocricy! Spokane Washington mayor Jim West is a perfect example of this!

Keep up the great work, you are admired!

Kenneth Winfrey
October 4 2005, 7:59PM

If there is no insult in being gay, the why should the question be a problem? If public figures choose careers and bring attention to themselves, (whether you're Sponge-Bob or Tinkly-Winkly) then they should expect some loss of privacy. To ask whether or not a person is gay should be like asking whether or not they like to sleep on the right or left-hand side of the bed. Of course, it isn't, but as long as we avoid the issue, it won't get any better.

Some of us just don't get it when you try to use their behavior as an example of why it's wrong. Some of us will just assume that you are actually emulating someone else because you don't know any better. Some of us even seem to think that it should be OK to let hateful bigotry pollute civilization without a response.

By the way, for all they did, Lincoln and MLK were assassinated in exchange for their benevolence.

ashon
October 4 2005, 8:09PM

too many problems dude...

"your right to privacy ends when you violate my right to liberty."

i'm sure you didn't necessarily intend for this to happen but you certainly slipped up...this really isn't about the civil rights of people...this is about YOU at the end of the day and that's highly problematic...

like someone else stated, your conjecture outed no one...rather, it was a ho hum week...full of implication and didn't really accomplish what you set out to do...

AND

comparing preachers to spongebob or penguins is quite ludicrous...it's childish even...we shouldn't have taken the right wing seriously when they posed the questions about spongebob...but THAT is your reasoning? wowzers...

kenneth
October 4 2005, 8:24PM

Well, we might as well campaign against and inquire about every rapper who uses homophobia in his music.

cody
October 4 2005, 9:11PM

Mel,

Why do you take what I write so personal? I know absolutely now one here. It's not personal. These are my thoughts and opinions. My beliefs and, frankly, I appreciate Keith for giving us the open forum to express them, to sharpen our take on the world.

I don't see faces here, hear voices or know the lives you folks live. These are just ideas. You might as well be Plato, Locke or Freud, or any dead poet. Just words on a page.

I've had these opinons long before I read any of these words and will have them until I see differently.

Again, I say, it ain't about you.

I'd say you have delusions of grander. You may be just a tad bit self absorbed dude.

But, I ain't one to judge.

Laura
October 4 2005, 9:20PM

"You outted no one. Those kats were/are not gay. They just dislike homosexuals. The two do not equal with anyone's twisted logic."

Often, homophobia and personal homosexuality does.

"You were trying to smear them with a gay brush hoping to hurt them."

Well no, that is exactly what these tinpot cultists do to gays.

again cody, the question, since you still haven't left like you claimed.

if they are not gay, then what harm is done by asking? if they are gay, then they are abusing power in a very public manner, and have put themselves in a spot to be publicly called on it. they aren't even required to answer; this is a website, not the 111th Session of the Supreme Court.

why can't we talk about it?

cody
October 4 2005, 9:34PM

Laura,

Alright, alright. You finally got my attention.

Happy?

Again, I ask. {{WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING GAY????}}

There are a whole lot worse things, like, shall we say, being a liar, cheat, thief, charlatan, swindler, false prophet, anti-Christ, republican, Mike Tyson, Mary Matalin (James’ wife), Ann Coltier (that witch) , a turd, Chinese food, liver cancer or a divorce lawyer to name a few.

If you are gay, own it, be it and don't be ashamed of it. And don't beat other folks up for being it whether they want to admit it or not.

Ain't nothing wrong with it.

a BrOtHa NaMeD $HaRiF
October 4 2005, 9:35PM

KEITH,
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!!

**a BrOtHa NaMeD $HaRiF**

Kenneth Winfrey
October 4 2005, 9:40PM

...and I say, for millionth time, that isn't about outing anyone. It never was. It actually isn't about Sponge Bob, Tinky Winky, penguins, or the professional and academic qualifications of a writer either. They make it about all those things, not us. Don't be distracted for one moment.

It's about how, as stated, "when public figures use their platform to champion causes against the civil rights of minorities, those minorities have the right to question them [in return]. And when closeted public figures use their notoriety to promote vicious homophobia, I believe we have the right to expose their hypocrisy. It doesn't matter if you're a preacher, a performer or a politician. Your right to privacy ends when you violate my right to liberty."

I'd leave them alone if they'd leave me alone! I could respect their privacy if they respected mine. No one needs to endure a preacher's opinions on the mechanics of anal sex, for example. Nor is it not about revenge or tit-for-tat, it's about refusing to be the whipping boy so many hetersexuals think we are. It's about refusing the be turned into an enemy of society, after all the contributions we've made and when we deserve the same rights as any other human being or American citizen.

We can't act like this all has been an unprovoked event where one person simply seeks to mailiciously "out" another without rationale. Yet, the practice of "outing" was virtually patented by the religious community centuries ago, and the contemporary religious right are carrying the torch to say the least! I plan to help blow it out though...

Nevertheless, the last thing these people need to be doing is preaching against that in which they partake themselves. That's just over the top, unacceptable, and shouldn't go unanswered. They have at least drawn attention to their own provate lives by obsessing over homosexuality.

On the other hand, I would entertain the idea that many ministers actually do this in order to offend as few of their loyal tithing members, not necessarily because they are obsessed with latent homosexuality...

cody
October 4 2005, 9:42PM

Other things worse than being gay:

Espresso
Newark New Jersey
All of New Jersey
Network TV
Star Jones
Entertainment Tonight
Anderson Cooper (no, I actually like him)
a 9 to 5
Air turbulence
ex wives
ex husbands
a boring preacher
a tooth ache
lust
The Governor of California
England
Ballet

Laura
October 4 2005, 9:46PM

"Alright, alright. You finally got my attention."

Are you going to answer the question, or not.

Laura
October 4 2005, 9:48PM

Er, "being gay" is not the issue, how many times must that be said?

Public hypocrisy, and holding self-appointed "community leaders" like these homomphobic chitlin switch showbiz rejects is the issue.

If you need me to say it again, I will, but so many people already have, I'm not sure why I'd need to at this point.

cody
October 4 2005, 9:51PM

What question?

Oh, what's wrong with asking?

Get this. Asking implies there's something wrong with being gay.

Attack them for other reasons, not that.

Laura
October 4 2005, 9:52PM

"We can't act like this all has been an unprovoked event where one person simply seeks to mailiciously "out" another without rationale. Yet, the practice of "outing" was virtually patented by the religious community centuries ago, and the contemporary religious right are carrying the torch to say the least! I plan to help blow it out though..."

when these protofascists call kids up to the altar to be "healed" of their homosexual ailments, I hear none of these loud wails of "outing".

instead, these people are enabled, promoted, and supported, all so the flock can get off on voyeurism and sadism.

these people are sick f!cks who are damaging our kids.

but no, we're not permitted to question them because they have certain letters before or after their name.

Laura
October 4 2005, 9:54PM

". Asking implies there's something wrong with being gay.

Attack them for other reasons, not that."

nobody is attacking anyone for "being gay". really, that should have been clear to you long ago.

they are called into question because of their homophobic behavior.

but no, we plebes are not permitted to ask questions, only do what we're told, and whatever these liars preach from their comfortable posts.

cody
October 4 2005, 10:00PM

"but no, we're not permitted to question them because they have certain letters before or after their name."

Come on, baby. Stay grounded.

They are not eating our children.

Yes we can call them to task. Yes we can challenge their stupidity. Yes, we can even kick their asses. But, it ain't got nothing to do with letters in front of their names.

Kola Boof
October 4 2005, 10:20PM

Would you OUT people for having abortions?

I think it's wrong to OUT people for being gay.

I once witnessed a gay person JUMP from a freeway over-pass, killing themselves. I write about it in my autobiography (CLICK THE LINK to read the first 2 chapters from my autobiography).

So I just think that being gay entails too much---PUBLICLY---for us to out people.

It's really nobody's business.

I am not gay....but I have now been accused of it so many times (or been accused of being a Man or being a woman who likes to sex Gay Men, which is NOT TRUE) that I stopped denying it.

If people think I'm a lesbian, so what.

But it does ANNOY ME---especially when it "cock-blocks" and keeps straight men from approaching me. And also when I have to explain to gay women that I don't "date" women, but I am a Gay Rights Supporter, and my best friend just happens to be gay and several other friends and favorite relatives are "gay", etc. But as for "outing" people---I don't think it's right or fair.

Kola Boof

Kola Boof
October 4 2005, 10:23PM

Sorry here's the link

http://doorofkush.50megs.com/photo2.html

Kola Boof
October 4 2005, 10:31PM

Hi Laura:

my comments were not in reference to the "PASTORS".

I didn't really think Keith was outing those people--I thought he was poking fun at them for being Homophobic.

My comments were IN GENERAL. Because I don't think it's right to OUT (for instance) Rosie O'Donnell----if she doesn't want people to know.

Kola Boof
October 4 2005, 10:42PM

CODY---

I kind of understand your contention that by OUTING people, we imply that there's something wrong with being gay. I think there's SOME truth to that.

But I also think that it's like OUTING "Vin Diesel" or "Mariah Carey"----revealing that someone who is trying to PASS for White has "Black Blood".

I think the person who feels stigmatized wants OTHERS to feel the same pain and social limitation.

I do have some gay friends who swear up and down that EVERY celebrity or person they see is "gay".

And I often wonder why it's so important to them that EVERYONE must be gay.

So I think you're right---those Gay People SUBCONCIOUSLY believe that there is something wrong with being gay and that's it a bad thing.

But then---in this society, how could they not?

The planet is TAUGHT to hate and oppress gay people from birth.

Kola

jazzi
October 4 2005, 10:52PM

Kola, I so agree with what you just posted.

Mel Smith
October 4 2005, 10:54PM

Cody, I think you 'got it' a few months ago when someone killed their 3-year-old son for being homosexual and you were really upset over it. The self hating people are doing the same thing to our children. There are actually depressed self hating homosexual people who are psychological killing children. Remember, someone is just asking a question and being gay is not bad. People who are comfortable with they sexuality should not care about someone asking them a question and I think we making it seem like we are second class people by keeping quiet over this.

Mel Smith
October 4 2005, 10:55PM

Thank you Kola. I love your last message

Laura
October 5 2005, 1:26AM

Kola:

"I didn't really think Keith was outing those people--I thought he was poking fun at them for being Homophobic."

That's how I saw it, with the added element of them being both homophobic and potentially hypocritical. I still say there is no harm in asking, plus no one is making them answer, anyway.

"I kind of understand your contention that by OUTING people, we imply that there's something wrong with being gay. I think there's SOME truth to that."

I didn't see people doing that. I saw it more as saying there is something DEFINITELY wrong with verbally and emotionally (and publicly) bashing gays as part of their living, while being gay themselves. Cody won't see the hypocrisy angle for whatever reason, and instead defends the people who bash us as if they are some kind of victims.

Stockholm Syndrome is alive and well amongst Black gays, I suppose.

Mel Smith
October 5 2005, 8:03AM

Laura, a few months ago, Cody seemed to be upset that someone killed their 3-year-old kid because the person thought his kid might be gay. I tried to get him to understand that the man killed his kid because they listen to these UNEDUCATED MINISTERS. Now, I'm not sure if Cody really cared about the kid or he just wanted to inform Keith of how he felt about him. There are plenty of "wolves in sheep clothing" in this world.

cody
October 5 2005, 9:15AM

Laura bushy, dear.

So, I take you off ignore and the thanks I get is a personal attack.

Evelyn Wood teaches reading for comprehension. Take a course.

You never read where I said don’t defend yourself. If ministers assault you from the pulpit and aim to deny you of basic liberties and equality because of your sexual orientation I say take up armed struggle against them if that’s what it takes to insure the principles on which this country was founded are applied across the board.

Liberty, either you have it or you don’t.

Equal means equal.

But because I don’t see the world as you do you think it important to demean and attack me. Because I say Donnie Mc has the right to live the life the makes him happy and stand up and declare to everyone ‘how he got ova,’ you call me a sell out.

Well, if believing we can be and do anything that our mind, hearts, will and faith can support makes me a sellout, so be it. What line do you want me to stand in?

I ain’t one for Group Think, baby.

cody
October 5 2005, 9:31AM

Mel,

Ministers didn't make that man kill his son. Ignorance did. Is there a connection between what they preach and ignorant behavior? Yes.

They should be shut up and shut down. Period.

But, do people walk away from being gay? Yes. Everyday. They have that right.

Children should be taught that too. It's possible.

Why does this have to be an all or nothing world for you?

Why do you only see the world in black or white?

There are thousands of shades of grey.

Many homosexuals are far from virtuous. They, like Laura, can be deceitful and have evil intent too. Where's your heart, man? What's your goal? To have a gay only world?

Tyler
October 5 2005, 10:33AM

It doesn't matter if you're a preacher, a performer or a politician. Your right to privacy ends when you violate my right to liberty.

Actually, no...that's not true. You're mean-spirited, reactionary ends justify the means tactic is just not right, man. For real, I'm gonna need to know exactly what you plan to do with the information you receive. You say you aren't into outting for outting sake, but what political purpose could outting serve.

What I think you are missing is that you will never change the far right...that's why they ARE the far right. It is hard to get people to re-think their entire belief structure and they are entitled to it.

However, the ones who are in the middle, who are unsure of what they think on gay rights, who see the hypocrisy but lack the courage or support to speak out, THOSE are the people you are trying to reach.

I honestly believe that a mean-spirited attack such as this will alienate those very people you want to reach, you SHOULD want to reach.

Outting ministers will most likely backfire. They can repent, throw themselves on the mercy of their congregations and enter reparative therapy or say they are weak and striving to be Christ-like like the rest of us. In short, they can spin it. There is nothing more dangerous than blind devotion, that is the nature of the best and worst of religious piety in the black church (i.e black folks forgive their pastors of anything, because they are "trying harder" than the rest of us).

Bad move, man, bad move...both politically and morally. Stooping to innuendo and (perceived) slander is not cool. Plus, unless you get pictures and/or video, you have nothing. Period. A minister's word backed by thousands of religous zealots against a gay man's word is nothing in the court of public opinion, not for the masses...

Chris S
October 5 2005, 11:33AM

This whole outing of gay members seems a bit confused at best. Is the practice of outing a closeted gay meant to be used as a weapon? if so, then the act of outing conservative pastors for their anti-gay rhetoric with speculation, no true fact, is a tit-for-tat method for dealing with the issue.

If a pastor or public official is secretely gay, then they are protected by the same rights as other citizens in this country to privacy. If their rhetoric is used maliciously against gay people, then file suits against them for hate crimes, racism, and for depriving citizens of their right to the pursuit of happiness.

-cs

Mel Smith
October 5 2005, 11:34AM

Cody, now I think we are on the same page, but people are also walk away from being heterosexual too. Look, we can forever have sex with women, but can we change our SEXUAL DESIRES for the same sex? The scientific community believe that it's something that can't be done. The ministers only used their biblical beliefs(not educational) and there is no where in the bible that say people can or should change their sexual orientation. Don't let them trick you because many of them call themselves Pastor or Rev. and they don't have the educational qualifications and only went to some six month school. I think you agree with me and you somehow don't agree with me. Donnie is entitle to his views and I would be the last person to deny that to him. I am only concern with children and others. If someone told me they left the "gay lifestyle," married a women, and ARE FREE FROM SAME SEX DESIRES AND ATTRACTIONS for the same sex, I'm happy for them and I can't hate on them. But, straight and gay scientists will refute those people. I think James Polk was the most famous ex gay person in the world. He appeared on Oprah, 60 minutes, and other shows. Well, they caught that dude in a gay bar after he appear on all those shows. Some of those people have committed suicide when they found out they could not change their sexual orientation. I cannot hate on anyone who say they change their disires for the same sex, but that's different then someone who is not staying away from sex. Now, do anyone know someone who don't have desires for the same sex, in addition to not having gay sex? Again, I also don't have sex but I still do have same sex desires. In other words, I will look at an attractive male who walk past me. I honestly think that there are a few strictly gay folks, a few strictly straight folks, and MOST bisexual folks. I also think many of the bisexual people block their feelings because of the social prejudice in society. History teaches us that heterosexuality was once not all that powerful.

Regan DuCasse
October 5 2005, 11:53AM

I don't agree with broadsiding someone who is privately maintaining their sexuality on the quiet either.
But Keith is right.
These men are public figures who chose that public life and use their position of power and influence to tell the world that gay people aren't fit to walk the earth and should therefore be treated badly until THEY go so low down, they disappear from fragile heterosexual sensibility.
These same politicians, ministers and law makes use money and votes contributed BY gay people to turn on them later.

It IS the hypocrisy that must be exposed.
I'm REAL tired of their sudden Biblical literacy when it comes to gay people...but any other admonishment that's there for heteros isn't made into a FEDERAL case against those who violate those admonishments in their own lives.
Keith and Jasmyne have proposed a speculative discussion.
Is this a possibility that these men are themselves gay?
It's a legitimate question.
It's up to the subjects of their speculation to HAVE THE STONES to step up.
If they are so eager to step up AGAINST gay folks, they should have the same back bone to step up to their critics.

cody
October 5 2005, 12:17PM

Mel.

Again, I say:

"Reality is what we ALL delude ourselves into believing."

Science has only recently proven the 'Placebo Syndrome' to be in full effect.

What you convince yourself you are, you are.

God, is what most folks create IT to be.

Our most virile, and potent, sex organ is our brain.

Mel Smith
October 5 2005, 4:09PM

Cody, we're slightly on the same page. That's why I think heterosexuality is bs too.

Andre'
October 5 2005, 7:28PM

I wish we could get this fired up to stop crime in our neighborhoods, bring fathers back into the househood, get more of our kids in college even though we have affirmative action, We have alot of things more important to worry about then some Preachers pimping us on Sunday.

Laura
October 5 2005, 8:10PM

"Laura bushy, dear."

LOL

wtf is that supposed to mean?

"But because I don’t see the world as you do you think it important to demean and attack me. Because I say Donnie Mc has the right to live the life the makes him happy and stand up and declare to everyone ‘how he got ova,’ you call me a sell out."

LOL!

I didn't call you anything. Please, quit your whining, go back to defending the people who hate you; it suits you. You've got plenty of company, you'll do just fine without me.

cody
October 6 2005, 8:59AM

""Laura bushy, dear."
LOL
wtf is that supposed to mean?"

Buy a clue.

Laura
October 6 2005, 4:12PM

How about you just say what you mean, Cody.

Yes. I like that solution much better.

After that, perhaps you can go back to defending open homophobes and other useless pastimes.

skye
October 6 2005, 8:29PM

Why are you gay people being so dishonest? People are tri-sexual. And you have chosen to be gay? You like the selfish lifestyle and you think its fun. You are stuck in love for the flesh and that is your main concern in life. Its unfortunate. Please be aware when your lifestyle and sex orientation becomes your main life focus. You are lost and no longer a threat to our real enemy. The white supremecist prefer to see you in this confusion. They have advanced on their battle to disarm us. Recognize

Laura
October 8 2005, 12:35AM

"Please be aware when your lifestyle and sex orientation becomes your main life focus."

Lol! Unlike you "heterosexual" orgasm fakers who also like same sex but have to run around trying to prove to the public at every minute that you're an approved, valid, conformist, doing everything you're told even when it's against your best interest.

Go lecture someone who shares your ignorance level, sex-obsessed hypocrite.

Elle
October 9 2005, 12:58PM

This is clearly what we call, 'stinking thinking'. You kick up all of this dust; yet, when it clears you have revealed nothing but a soul that further depicts a man lost in his sexuality, to the nth degree. I don't understand it, what is really happening here?

You've wasted much space and time with nothingness; if we wanted to know about these 'prime time' ministers, the web is full of information on them. What is your point? We all know that most of these ministers serve mammon, the great dollar bill; but, what does that have to do with your deathstyle?

When you stand in the mirror of your own soul, it would interest me to know what you see. It is rather obvious that you are broken and you reveal a contrite spirit. There is nothing wholesome about what you're living, professing, or attempting to push off on others. Keep silent, and perish in your own misery.