Was Bill Cosby Right?

RICKEY JOHNSON
May 24 2004, 12:22PM

I AM A LITTLE TAKEN BACK THAT MR. COSBY COULD BE SO SEVERE IN HIS ANALYSIS. YES I AGREE ON THE SNEAKER ISSUE IN THE POOR FAMILIES. BUT IT IS OBVIOUS HE HAS FORGOTTEN WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO PEOPLE OF COLOR WITH THE STRUGGLES THAT WE ENDURE REGARDELSS OF OUR POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE FOCUS ON BEING A PART OF MAINSTREAM SOCIETY. I DO NOT AGREE ON THE FORMAT OF THE NEW FILM SOUL PLANE BUT MR. COSBY NEEDS TO LOOK IN HIS ARCHIVE OF FILMS AND HE BECAME WHO HE IS TODAY BY DOING THE SAME FILMS HE CRITIIQUE. I AM ASHAMED AT HIS LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUE EVEN IF IT IS TRUE BUT TO JUDGE A GROUP BASED ON NON ACOMPLISHMENTS BECAUSE INDIVIDUALS DO NOT HAVE A SENSE OF ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT THE WAY TO CHANGE, AND CONSIDERING HE IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WHEN HE CHEATED ON HIS FAMILY/WIFE, WHO DID HE CHEAT WITH, A WHITE WOMAN. SO WHO IS HE TO JUDGE WHEN HIS LAUDNDRY OF ETHICAL CHOICE AND JUDGEMENT IS NOT MUCH BETTER. IF THE FOUNDATION OF CHANGE FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR IS IN THE FAMILY THEN HE CAN'T JUDGE IF HE CHOSE TO SATISFY HIS LUST THAN STAND BY HIS FAMILY AS HE SO INDICATE THAT WE MUST DO. SO MR. COSBY SHOULD CONSIDER EVERYTHING INVOLVED AND NOT THE END RESULT THAT IS OBVIOUS. WE ARE LIVING DIFFERENT TIMES WITH THE MEDIA AND ADVERTISEMENT AND THE VENDORS THAT FILL THE POOR COMMUNITITIES SO DON'T PUT THE PEOPLE DOWN BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING BAD CHOICES. THAT IS JUST NOT THE WAY SINCE THE TIMES THAT I CAME FROM THERE WAS THE NEIGHBORHOOD YOUTH CORP. JOBS AND THE P.A.L. AND FREE TUITION. THERE ARE MANY YOUTHS OF COLOR THAT WOULD BE WILLING TO WORK BUT THE JOBS ARE LIMITED AND MANY WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION BUT EDUCATION COST ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH EVEN IN THE COMMUNITY COLLEGES SO, FIND ANOTHER WAY MR. COSBY TO ADREESS THIS THAN TO BE SO HEARTLESS.

Ra
May 24 2004, 1:08PM

As painful as the truth may sound, I would have to agree with Bill Cosby. Actually, it's in the interest of the "poverty pimps" and apologists for our failures to criticize Mr. Cosby. Some of these people would be out of a job if they said that poor people need to get their act together (and by the way, I'm not a Republican). Bill Cosby has given millions to black colleges and other black causes, and I doubt that those who would criticize him have anything to contribute except a politically correct tired rhetoric.

bklynd
May 24 2004, 1:25PM

I agree that the answer is somewhere in the middle, but I think it is about time somebody said something to make black folk in America wake up. Consider this:

1. Black women have higher rates of obesity and obesity related illnesses, yet we persist in thinking we're just BBW (big, beautiful women) and won't make any attempt to lose just a little weight to improve our health. And can someone please tell these sisters that available in your size does NOT mean suitable for your size -- I say that as a woman who lost more than 70 pounds without major dieting or surgery.

2. Teen pregnancy continues to be a huge problem in the black community, and we don't want to take the time to talk to our kids about birth control (never mind safe sex to prevent disease transmission). And why is it okay for my 13 year old daughter to wear thong panties under low-slung jeans and wonder why she turns up pregnant at 15?

3. Hardcore rap is the fastest growing genre of music, rife with references to casual sex, excessive drug and alcohol use - a teenager has a hit song mentioning "everyone in the club gettin' tipsy" is ok?

4. You live in the projects, collect welfare or social security because you have asthma (a totally manageable condition, and not one that would prevent you from working -- it's not like you need a lot of lung power to be a receptionist), but you drive a luxury car or SUV or expect to be able to.

5. You won't shop at a better supermarket so you can have proper nutrition because the prices are slightly higher than the corner store (can we PLEASE stop calling colored sugar water juice?).

6. You don't see many fat Chinese restaurant owners or workers because they sell -- they don't eat -- the fat and salt-laden 3 chicken wings and fried rice special that some of our people eat 2 and 3 times a day. Go to the same bulletproof-windowed Chinese take-out joint and watch the workers on their dinner break. They're eating steamed rice and vegetabels, with a little meat or tofu in broth.

7. Parents will kill themselves to purchase a game system for their kids for Christmas, but are stunned when the teacher says the kid can't read properly or won't sit still in class.

8. Children as young as 2 can recite the lyrics to 50 Cent songs, but can't recite the alphabet. Kids in elementary school can teach you how to get to the most advanced levels in a video game, but can't tell you their address and phone number.

9. Teenagers refuse to go to school to learn something so they can make real money, but expect to live in a mansion, wear expensive clothes, drive a luxury car or SUV, without any more education than a GED.

10. Black people refuse to support a clean, wholesome movie with little or no profanity (Kingdom Come), a well-told intelligent portrayal of a black family (Once When We Were Colored), or a slave tale that puts blacks in a positive light (Amistad), but clownin', goof-off, shuckin' and jivin', bass thumpin, big booty bumpin, dumb-ass, cheap liquor drinkin' chronic-smokin movies like Soul Plane will make a mint. The difference between blaxploitation movies in the seventies and just plain exploitation moveis today is slim, but at least back then they started with blacks wanting to make movies about blacks because there wasn't anything available that told our story, and if there was, the profits went to white Hollywood pockets. There was an evolution in the quality of stories, particularly with pioneer moviemaking from Spike Lee, but because we wouldn't continue to support them, the money machine went back to the clownin' formula and cleaned up. Thus, the new blaxplotation genre began.

BONUS: We're quick to blame everyone and everything else (raciscm, classism, poverty) for our sorry state of affairs, but never once consider the number one reason why we're seen as one evolutionary step above monkeys: CHOICE.

When we choose to take matters into our own hands; we go to the library or the internet to learn if our teachers aren't teaching us or our children; we research which careers will be the most lucrative in the long term and what it takes to have them; we listen to the reports and start taking seriously the many threats to our health (cancer, diabetes, heart disease) and actually do something about it; we stop using "stuff" to make ourselves feel better (clothes, cars, jewelry, sex, drugs, alcohol), then Bill Cosby won't be seen as such a villain. He's not perfect, and no one else is, but somebody had to tell the truth, and thank God he did.

Malik Stone
May 24 2004, 1:31PM

You know, we as African Americans find it hard to accept the truth about ourselves at times. Especially when it comes from someone within our own community. But I think it would be more of crime if we were not to commment on what has been painfully obvious for quite sometime. Now that Mr. Cosby has put it out there so to speak, what do we now do with it, other than trying to fault him for speaking the truth?
You have to keep in mind the experiences for blacks folks who understand the importance of knowing how to play the game of life is quite different for those exist within a urban environment where bad habits and low self-esteem has been passed down from generation to generation. I believe Mr. Cosby is right in calling parents on their (stuff). But in trying to tackle this issue, we must access what the problem is. Also, please keep in mind, that these parents picked up habits from their environment and this cycle just continues to be repeated over and over again.

Troy
May 24 2004, 1:32PM

Bill Cosby for President!

cmoney
May 24 2004, 1:51PM

Yes, Bill Cosby is right. He is an imperfect messenger, as we all are. How many of those kids and parents learned their poor English from watching the Cosby Kids cartoon? (Remember Dumb Donald!?). But the truth is the truth. We have a problem in our community. We (collectively) are abysmal as parents. Even well off parents do not emphasize good manners and the importance of education. Ask any teacher who teaches African-American kids and they will tell you that African-American parents will never show up for parent-teacher conferences, but will be the first to curse out the teacher when their kid is failed or put out of school for disciplinary problems. Others on this site have already listed several areas of concern that I agree with. I know from personal experience the result of poor parenting (House burglary that was obviously carried out by young people, considering what was stolen). Cosby has only said what I have been saying and hearing for years in the African-American community. Poor people have enough problems without having to deal with crime and self destruction. I wouldn't have chosen Cosby's words or the forum he chose, but we shouldn't shoot the messenger just because he is saying what we don't want to acknowledge publicly. We ought to listen and do something to correct the problem.

aquafemme2003
May 24 2004, 1:53PM

I applaud Keith for this on point analysis. Definitely, black people will openly complain about our "lesser elements" in private, but among whites, it's an unspoken rule that everything is due to racism. I for one never play the race card. Frankly, I beleive class is the issue most of the time. That's not to say bigotry isn't alive and well, but at the end of the day, I still say classism is the major player. I think that's what smacks of self righteousness in Mr. Cosby's remarks: They don't seem designed to help. THey don't even seem constructively critical. They seem harsh and bitter and ill-timed and based more on his disdain for lower class people than anything else. It doesn't help that he has a history of driving an upper middle class agenda down the throats of all who will hear it.

Do I agree with what he said? Wholeheartedly. Do I think he could have chosen a better time and place to state the obvious? Absolutely. Of course, and I say this with full expectation of outcry, the NAACP seems to have a hand in "poverty pimping" so it's no surprise to me that Mr. Mfume would be stone faced after such remarks; they undermine the NAACPS's agenda - which, unfortunately, seems to be ensuring black folk are never at fault. I'm just talking out of my ass here, but I think I'm on to something.

Finally, let me just say that we are a society of people who like to complain and blame. It's always somebody's fault. The previous poster gave an example that was right on: everybody wants to lose 50 lbs. but they don't want to do the basic, BARE MINIMUM stuff to accomplish that. Replace that cookie with an apple? Nope. I'd rather blame the 3 kids I had 15 years ago. Go to a library and use the internet, since I can't afford to have it at home? Nope. I'd rather just fail my courses and blame racism. We all complain and blame on some level. It just that some of us take it to a NEW level.

Troy
May 24 2004, 2:08PM

Speaking of getting that education....
Edward P. Jones author of the book, The Known World will be at Hue-man Bookstore off of 125th Street in harlem, New York City. He will be there from 6 p.m. to 8 signing books and frankly worth seeing and being there; a great writer, soon to be Pulitzer Prize winner and the book unravels some history and whys to the here and now. Worth it, worth it, worth it.

(we must get there people, you and I, even it takes Mr. Jello to call us up on it and say it's time!)

David
May 24 2004, 2:12PM

Aquafemme, thank you for pointing out classism as today's most potent tool for discrimination.

I also agree with Bill Cosby but disagree with his lack of diplomacy. He should have phrased his critique better – but then, would it have had induced the same widespread reaction?

I attended high school in a British system and I was beyond shocked when an African American told me to my face that I am not black because I speak correct English. We were both college sophomores at that time!

I was thrown into abject sorrow when I heard that one of my classmates had stolen a textbook from the college bookstore because he couldn't afford to pay. My sorrow lasted until I saw him the next day in a pair of brand new timberland boots and a Sean John shirt to-match. [Maybe he stole those too, but I doubt it.]

Clearly a large part of the African American community is embracing the wrong set of values. It's high time someone pointed it out.

JIM
May 24 2004, 2:18PM

I won't comment about Mr. Cosby's words because (1) I haven't read the entire speech and know too well how lines can be taken out of context, and (2) I'm white and don't have an insider's perspective on this issue. But I do think the African American community should have seen this coming: don't you remember the way Bill tore into Wanda Sykes for not "speaking English" at that awards ceremony last year?

Troy
May 24 2004, 2:24PM

In another state where I have property and go to from time to time, here's another take on the state of things....50 cents the rap or hip hop artist buys Mike Tysons' house in Hrtford, Connecticut and now sits on the city council in Hartford and, actually now, people up there are listening to him and taking him very serious, was it about his money or his education or something else? True story. What say you fellow commentors, what BE next??

alicia
May 24 2004, 2:37PM

yes

he was absolutely correct

as a veteran educator
i watch increasingly younger amoral het parents
raise children like puppies/weeds

they have no involvement or interest in their educations

many kids are actually coached by these parents to be "crazy" at school etc...to garner mental disability checks/free behavior medications etc

there are many brilliant african american parents and students...many are gifted and admirably reared by superior parents

but what bill cosby stated was true for what is increasingly becoming a doomed norm rather than
an exception!

Da D.L. Crib
May 24 2004, 2:38PM

As I commented in my post:
http://www.geocities.com/blkngga/index.html

I too agree with a lot of what Mr. Crosby said, but as I read Mr. Boykin's article I became a little more frustrated with his remarks. He was after all, preaching to the converted. I wonder what he expects to be done in the wake of his remarks? Are those mothers suddenly going to buy "hooked on phonics?"

Since Mr. Cosby has taken it upon himself to point out the faults, now where is a solution? No it does not have to involve money. I want to see him (since he has a doctorate in education) propose a plan of attacking this issue. He started this by targeting a problem, now what???

Leonardo da vinci E.
May 24 2004, 2:58PM

American Cosby has a right to apply his "freedom" in the use of his speech:Notice that his opinion does not have any direct effect upon harming anyone (he actually wishes to inspire them towards better interactions in their own communities) across the nation.I would say that in reality there is no such thing as free speech,but the laws create as effect that there is really only the responsible use of speech which is left alone(no matter how controversial)right up to the moment it is apparent THAT little free speech has caused a dire consequence upon the life and right of way of your neighbor.But notice how those who did not agree with him did not behave like freedom loving beings...they immediately called for the "boycott" as a means to cause a "dire" affectation against Cosby.They intended to inspire others to damage his ability to even live (and in a free society).Such human beings are not seeking justice or fairness...they are seeking power and the right to exercise the ultimate power in fascism,and by their trivial complaints they hope to gain credibility from the masses and the power contained there-in

Christy
May 24 2004, 3:58PM

Mr Cosby couldn't have been more right. Someone had to turn the "mirror" around for us to realize the condition of some of our people.

Good job Mr Cosby

BD
May 24 2004, 4:18PM

I agree with Bill 100%. We need to take responsibility for the things we are doing to ourselves. Yeah, white folks are not in our corner, but so what. The money we waste on material things could go for the education of our children. And these parents need to be parents. I can't believe that people let their children listen to some of this garbage that these artistes are putting out.

chris williams
May 24 2004, 4:36PM

i agree with cosby,500$ invested in a savings bond can generate 50' to 500k in 30 years! as a former banker a lot of my former customers lack any serious knowledge of money matters!cosby it seems has issued a challenge to the black leaders at this venue,if not him then whom,they seem to be afraid to say the truth to our people,and what you don't know will hurt you!I also and smart enough to know that racist systems are well entrenched in the US,and we're not to blame for that but we are to blame for not doing anything about it so get up to bat and lets knock out a homer!

Kola Boof
May 24 2004, 4:54PM

Well, everything Bill Cosby was "part" of the TRUTH...and I really didn't think it was meanspirited, I think he said it from a place of love.

I've always felt that replacing the civil rights/black power movements with the Hip Hop movement was a death knell for black Americans.

Still...I must say....that I've always (and continue) to have more respect for the working poor so called "ghetto" blacks than I do for the upper class and middle class black Americans.

And if we look at more "parts" of the truth....we will find that the middle class blacks are destroying and selling out our people/race/group in far more dangerous and multiple ways than the poor blacks are.

As for dirty laundry...when will we stop caring what white people think? Who gives a shit!? I'm so sick of that "dirty laundry" b.s. EVERYBODY KNOWS what goes on with blacks. There is no black community, no private sector in America. Please.

Lastly...If black men could arrest their culture of SEXISM long enough to stop harping on the percentages of what "black MALES" are doing/facing....and start to give a damn about the little black girls that give birth to black males....then we might begin to get somewhere.

Black women in America have the lowest self-esteems of any human beings I've seen on earth.

How can strong sons and healthy communities be born from a class of single women who've been abandonded, told daily by the media that they're ugly and worthless--unloved by anyone, totally disenfranchised.

But all we keep hearing is...50% of black MALES this and 8% of black MALES that.

Sexism and the CHRONIC devaluation of black females in ALL black cultures...remains the single biggest ELEPHANT in the room...and continues to produce an unhealthy subculture...BY DESIGN.

My experience has been that black men are raised up to only care about themselves--"every man for himself"--and everyone in our culture, both male and female, coddle and obsess over the males while the females are left UNDEVELOPED.

These undeveloped females are the black majority. They live in a white society that HATES them for being black...and they live in a black society that HATES them for being black.

They are not valued, therefore they have an outlook on life that doesn't value anything--and oftentimes, that outlook is all they have to pass on to their children (who also are taught by middle class Cosby-like folks to hate them).

I wish that middle class and upper class blacks would stop using that word "ghetto" in such a derogatory manner. They look down their noses and quip, "Oh, that's so ghetto". Which is a loaded, prejudiced, I've-joined-the-establishment comment if ever there was one.

Whether anyone likes it or not....these POOR black folks have the anger and rage in them to kill.

We should start caring about that and reach out to them, attempt to empower them with self esteem--because when we reach out to them, we reach out to ourselves.

RICKEY JOHNSON
May 24 2004, 5:30PM

I FORGOT TO MENTION IN MY EARLIER COMMENTS THAT I DO SUPPORT MR. COSBY'S POINT OF VIEW ON THE EXPRESSION OF ENGLISH, BUT STRONGLY FEEL HE SHOULD BE A LITTLE MORE COMPASSIONATE BECAUSE OF WHERE THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN INITIATED IN OUR COMMUNITY AND THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES FROM FAMILY TO FAMILY OF COLOR CONSIDERING THEIR LIVING AND EDUCATIONAL ENVIRONMENTS.

Black Nova
May 24 2004, 5:54PM

Cosby said what he said because he was frustrated. If he'd been gentle in his remarks, it might not have sparked the debate. Maybe this is the type of dialogue we need in order to correct the problem. Furthermore, if his statements clash with his lovable, huggable persona, all the better. If someone like Armstrong Williams had said this (and hasn't he for a while?) no one would've paid any attention. Regardless of his delivery, this is definitely something that needs to be looked at.

ronn
May 24 2004, 6:15PM

It's more a matter of if Cos was truthful: why single out only "low class" BLACKS? I've seen that behavior in every racial group and among ALL classes. What excuse does he give for having a daughter who's a recovering drug addict and another who's a convicted felon because he was not a responsible father? He had tens of millions at his disposal, speaks "proper" english and has advanced degrees. Yet his own flesh and blood mirrors the behavior of the very "low class" Blacks he showed disdain for.

Now he's complaining about not having all of his words aired and having many of them taken out of context. What the hell did he expect. Faux News et al jumped on his shit like white on rice. And they're Black lawn jockeys gleefully joined in the chorus of hate for "low class" Blacks.

I'd rather take advice from the old lady at the Brooklyn Museum subway stop who I've never met before than Dr. Cosby. At least I know where she's coming from.

cassaura
May 24 2004, 6:20PM

I don't agree with Mr. Cosby. And I feel the need to go further and
apologize to those his comments must have truly hurt and offended. Who
probably once laughed at his jokes, only now to be the butt of them....
truly sad.
How easy it is to stand "in" the promised land and shout down to those
who through ignorance or poverty, have yet to see the dream, and can
only experience it though those $500 tennis shoes.
Maybe they see that Mr/Ms educated can speak with socialese, but are
still at this very moment unemployed!! Maybe those tennis shoes were for
their dream of the next Micheal Jordan..
I for one love the English language and words, in all of its idioms. But
if I had to make a living, or hold a conversation speaking math, I might
hide on a corner too.
The language that frightens me more is.. "These, and those people".
I am also thankful to an active mother.. and teachers who would..
"pull my little blacka__" aside and whisper in my ear. To get it
together. They were the loudest 'whispers' I've ever heard.

LGrant
May 24 2004, 6:25PM

We needed that whoopin. No time outs or counting to 3. We needed that.

Mee
May 24 2004, 7:03PM

Bill cosby said it right! We blacks have to start thinking outside the box. The racism card have been milked dry( Spiken Lee even wrote about it in his movie "25th Hour "). I do hear some blacks in my college cry that the science professor gave them a C because they are not white. These same kids don't study or even come to class regularly and they except to pass?? but their cell phone is with them always.We blacks should learn something from the Jews-they have been prosecuted for hundreds of centuries even before black slavery yet whenever they are given opportunity to rise up they embrace quickly. Whereever they go they make sure that they occupy the top positions in school, college, banks, Hollywood, World bank , hospital , writers Nobel Prize etc AND they also help their fellow jews when they have made it on top. They do so that they can prove to the world that they are worth something and not "low lives". That is something we blacks should learn. But again how can you help someone if they are comfortable in the self-pity compartment? Kola Boof mentioned something about low self-esteem for black women. While that is true so also have other ethnic women such as the eastern european women in the early 1900s , chinese and native american women all been ascribed to loathe. In fact the only standard beauty that was recognized was Anglo-Saxon(western europe) anything else is by the way side and not "white". Misery Loves Company. Some people enjoy when other feel sorry for them. If your English(I have a slight british accent) is well-phrased and versed some blacks(in high school and some colleges) will immediately call you "gay"(it's true i have been called that). We have to move on people . Bill Cosby can't do it alone. We should all try and be role models for our race before we become extinct.Extinct?? Yes, we may dissolve ourselves before the white man does. If we look around we may have already started .For example black women have the highest level of abortion in the country( i'm not pro-life or anything) even though blacks are only 10 percent of the total population. This should give us something to think about.

iago
May 24 2004, 7:19PM

Ronn and Cassaura, thank you and Amen! How easy it is to stand in the “promised land” and look across and down in judgement. Maybe DR. COSBY spoke some truths, but shame on the good DR. for not recognizing the myriad causes that contribute plight of poor Black communities. Frustration is no excuse for these aggressive remarks. I too get frustrated from time to time, I’m sure we all do, but those of us knowledgeable enough to be so ought to rise above our frustration and seek out solutions. DR. COSBY should be talking to his Black peers in entertainment, those who perpetuate the images that poor people see and attempt to emulate. We all know, to a large degree poor people want to be the superstars they see on television. And, after all, if these superstar/role model entertainers have made it and these are the images they portray, maybe that is what I need to do to "make it."

And please, let us understand that we all will not get out of the inner cities and we will not all "make it." Although we all should strive to, it just is not realistic to believe somehow we all can or will rise above our circumstances. We are no different that our poor white, latino, or other ethnic class counterparts. The media try to paint us as some anomaly. We are not! Don’t believe the hype, my people, don’t believe the hype.

I am very disappointed in Dr. Cosby. He should know better.

P.S. Thank God for Black Talk! When I get out of my lily-white world of work, I can’t wait to get to where my homies be at.

Miss
May 24 2004, 8:00PM

I agree with Mr. Cosby for the most part. I spent my youth in the inner city and can attest to what he's describing. Racism or no, once an intelligent person reaches adult age they should take responsiblity for their own attitudes and at the least their behavior. I hope more respectable Black celebrities start speaking out the way he has, we need this wake-up call. What I also find interesting is that some people are demanding a boycott of Cosby for his well-meaning criticism, but where are the demands to boycott these rappers who have made careers out of "airing Black people's dirty laundry" and doing much more harm to our community as a result?

eliott morst
May 24 2004, 8:22PM

i totally agree with cosby.
this is the hard truth.
he is the perfect person to say this publicly.
also, the response of the crowd he spoke this to is troubling.
IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE FUNNY.
this is very serious.
WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY NOW.
OR ELSE?????????????????????????????????????????

Cliff
May 24 2004, 9:55PM

Unfortunately Cosby was right on-point. Sometimes I feel so ashmed of my people. I work at a global accounting/consulting firm that is quite conservative. The firm is constantly trying to increase the number of minorities hired each year. Every year, some of the black candidates they hire are an embarrassment. They come to work dressed as though they are headed straight to the club. Wearing hair styles that were probably appropriate when they were in school but are hardly appropriate in a professional setting. Telling people what they will and will not do (despite the fact that they chose to work for the firm and should have fully understood what was expected of them). Can tell you what happened at the club the other night but hadn't even started to study for their CPA exam. Will curse someone out if they give them a bad evaluation. Ready to claim racism at the drop of a dime. But what's more frustrating is that when some of us try and talk to them about their behaviour or dress, they want to clown us. "oh yall just trying to be like them" or "yall ain't nothing but uncle tom niggas".
This victimization syndrome we suffer from has got to stop. Yes, racism exists but that's not the only thing that's keeping us from being as successful as we should be. And it's about time someone has said it out loud and and out in the open....because obviously the closed-door discussions haven't helped. It's time we focus on updating the NAACP. The racism of yesterday is not the same racism of today. The lack of opportunity of yesterday is different from the struggles we deal with today. And yet the black civil rights organization are still using those same tactics that may have brought the color barrier down but they are no longer effective.

Laura
May 25 2004, 12:33AM

Cosby was right on the surface, but that's about it. Our communities have some serious problems that we need to deal with, but I find this scolding somewhat hard to accept from a multimillionaire.

So far I haven't found the text or transcript of his speech, but there have been several references to a remark he made about our people getting shot by cops...

The Daily News quoted it as, "Turning to criminal justice, he said, 'These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, saying, "The cops shouldn't have shot him." What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?'"

Um...maybe...he was going to...BUY IT...?

Hopefully he isn't really saying Black lives are worth some pound cake (or in the real life case of Latasha Harlins, an 80 cent bottle of orange juice). But I don't see the point in making a joke out of the realities of racial profiling.

Some elements of our communities are screwed up. So are elements of the larger society we are in. Why not talk about both?

JamilMD
May 25 2004, 1:23AM

Cassura Iago and Ronn, I am so sorry that you think that his comments were harsh but the realities are that many poor blacks remain poor because of their own mistakes and lack of drive. what black family do you know that does not have a member that addicted . I think it is highly unfair to bring that up however it parallels this arguement. people who get addicted to what ever drug usually become so after making poor choices. for the cast majority of people heroin addiction is not an issue because tey have made the choice to never use heroin.

We as a people make choice as to what is important and what we want. As a former teacher I can not tellyou how many times I have had kids who did not do their assignments or could not remember lessons but could remeber the latest song or the talk about he latest cars or what have you. It is indeed about choices. No not everyone in the inner city will make it out.

People talk about racism and I know only too well the evil face of racism but I think that there is only so much that you can blame on it. I have seen some kids go into store and intimidate the proprietors al in the name of fun or who think its cool to go into a building scowing because that conteneance is on the face of most rappers thinin its cool and either do not understand or do not care that white america is fearful of them and fear begets violence. They are afraid enough of us without us adding fat to the fire.

I have heard the debate for and against "ebonics" as a viable languge form and I will only say this. Just like the hispanics and other ethnicities who live in the US, the vast majority learn how to speak english or they are unemployable unless you work within that community. I am sorry that you would be fearful to speak the language of mmathematics if that wre the case but to survive you would learn it. the fact that you would be afraid to try and run to hide on a corner goes back to good and bad choices.

As for the 400 dollar shoes and your bills cannot be paid that is simply ridiculous. Black people as a whole are consumers and we in our atempt to obtain the "dream of success" poput waaaaaay too much empahsis on owning things . Success is not about that. It is about doing somethng productive and giving back when you are doing this those things willcome . Maybe to help te dream of a future basketball player youshould buy him keds and if he really wants the more expensive ones he will be inspired to work harder. Supporting the dreams of your children does not mean just financial. How about belicving your kid can succeeed if he has the determination and wherewithall to push forward. Unfortunately support to many just means spending money not spending time which by far more germane.

AS for the police violence it does seem aimed at minority males and yes there is racial profiling been there myself. But then again you need to ask yourself if you know it happens why put yourself in situations that can exacerbate it. If you get pulled over by the cops don't run!! don't drive off. Don't keep your hands in your pocket. Seems like commonsense but damn some folk don't get it.

I will conceed that the media skews pretty much everything and we are made out to be monsters. Our misbhaviors are highlighted while our acheivments are ignored. Hollywood does not help soul plane/Friday does not help it only seem to reinfornce stereotypes.

Yeah Bill may be somewhat out of touch with the average black man but he was not always privledged. And just for thse of you who do not know, poor does not = a black culture it is a plight. illiteracy and not speking english well when it counts is a hinderence we can ill afford. Speaking well does not equal selling out or being an Uncle Tom.

DBFEB
May 25 2004, 2:34AM

I agree with what Bill Cosby said and I agree with the way he said it. As Black people we tend to make too many excuses. The point of the matter is that we will never get along in this country if we continue to ignore education. It's that simple.

Regan DuCasse
May 25 2004, 9:30AM

Mr. Cosby was RIGHT ON the money!
His statements require no interpretation. We know he was talking about the VAST majority of young black men and women who have children irresponsibly, became addicted or diseased and then say 'THE SYSTEM' did it!
The 'system' didn't make them pregnant or REFUSE them an education.
It's not 'the system' that finds black people unaware, but black folks feeding their own into it.
Poverty is relative, but you guarantee your chances of being stuck in it if you have kids before a gainful skill. Then leave the kids in poverty to be raised in conditions in some places not fit for a dog.
Sure, there is SOME racism, but not 24/7.
The racism experienced these days is literally anecdotal, NOT institutional.
If you suspect it at all, there is redress in the law.
A well dressed, clean cut, well spoken brother CAN go anywhere he wants, rather than a foul mouthed, ghetto fabulous on.
That's the RULES for ANYONE who expects success.
Even a white guy with tattoos and a foul mouth and greasy clothes won't go far either.
Trash is trash.
My grandmother and grandfather survived the Great Depression and Jim Crow.
They emerged from this experience a lady and a gentleman. You could eat from my grandmother's floors.
My father survived a poverty stricken childhood where he didn't even get glasses until he served in the segregated army during World War 2.
Young people these days got no self respect, self restraint or self motivation.
Blacks need it MOST of all to get somewhere!

aquafemme2003
May 25 2004, 10:43AM

I think a lot of very good points have been made here. For one, I agree with the idea that as a whole, alot of black parents are not raising their kids - they're simply keeping them fed, dressed and alive. That doesn't speak as to what's going on in their head. While on some superficial, lovey dovey level, it might seem feasible that a lower income person might see a pair of Jordans as their personal "dream", let's snap back to reality: when you can't afford to have the Internet or some other resource that would equate one foot on the road out of poverty, shoes need to be the last thing on your mind. Or at least get some shoes that are sensible - haven't you ever noticed that while more middle class blacks spend moderate amounts on clothes/shoes, the poorer the person, the more expensive their kicks? That's symptomatic. IN a class I took once a teacher put out a theory that rings true. Black people long had no control over their basic destiny INCLUDING what they wore or owned. In the class, the professor expounded to say that now we see a desire to "own" appearance. That's why, in my mind, blacks are so damn materialistic. Combine that with a mentalitiy that says "you'll never be legit but you can look legit" and you get a person who can't pay rent but has $500 braids.
Definitely there is an entire mentality issue that needs to be addressed here. Lower income blacks, by and large, aren't thinking on their feet. They are short sighted. I could go on and on and ON about all of the things many posters have mentioned: the association of talking proper with being "white"; the unspoken rule of when in doubt, play the race card; etc. etc.
But the main thing we need to note is this: Who's debating the issue? Us - largely college educated people who are taking the time to not only read a news/culture oriented site, but branch off and read the original Cosby comments. We're debating an issue that doesn't directly involve us. The folks that should be having this conversation are where? At Footlocker. There's your problem right there.
Educated, upper class blacks will stay upper class and educated because they're upper class and educated enough to put their priorities in order. Lower income, uneducated blacks, on the other hand, will remain lower income, uneducated blacks. And of course, the topic of countless conversations among upper class, educated blacks. It's almost funny.

Jeffrey
May 25 2004, 10:49AM

While I agree that personl responsibility is impratnt and the lack of ia a valid critique. I do not agree, however, that information that is genrally common-knowledge amongst black folks all of sudden needs to be apart of public media ammunition. I, by no means, believe in a politics of respectability--which means that we try to hold some sterilized image of blakc poeple---but, I do beleiev in weighibng the cost of public rhetoric. Who does Cosby serve, sitting at the middle-upper class event with the NAACP, by speaking these words? Sounds like an old case of making "ourseleves" feel better, at the sake of another's pain or poverty. This is the tendency that many black folks have fallen into, at the guide of white christianity and whiteness, more genrally. Moral superiority, is what its calls--and this, if you ask me, has been a major killer in our community, in society. Yet, I beg the question: Who made DR.(and I am stll yet to see the PhD) the spokesperson for black folk's eduaction? In fact, who made these MEN the spokespeople for the men and women who can't afford to suspend their skin, with their 100's of million dollars and mercedes benz? Who decided, once again, that these men---those who critique and supposedly "tell it like it is" with no sense of care or concern for the discursive dangers of public speech? Many have given themselves the right, to make wrong (or more properly, under-developed) assumptions, accusations, and public outcries in the name of the many women, poor, disenfranchised people--whose voices we have yet to hear, and whose voices these COSBY folks seem to leave in the shadows.

JLee
May 25 2004, 11:29AM

The main thing we blacks need to stop doing is accusing someone of "acting white" due to displaying stellar speaking skills and good manners. When other blacks accuse me of acting white, I tell them that I act "green" because that's what I want in my pockets! I don't care if you're black, white, asian, native american, straight, gay, etc. Good manners and an excellent vocabulary cuts across all races, ages and social classes.

cassaura
May 25 2004, 12:36PM

It was wrong of Mr. Cosby to stand in front of graduating class at
Howard University and castigate the underpriviledged.

I liken it to someone standing giving an honorary
life achievement award at the Oscars/Emmies.. (which they love to do so
much), and saying by the way, our rich black, millionaires and
billionares are not holding up their end of the bargain.

We went to their movies, bought their albums, books, watched their tv
shows religiously... Why have the not taken some of those millions and
created a descent black network!! A publishing house for writers.. How
about a Newspaper!!..
Places of employment to get some of our underpriveledged off the corner.
I bet you would not be surprised to hear some of the same excuses, of
racism.. that the underpriviledged have.

I for one don't care what white people think. I expect the worst from
them until they prove me wrong. And many have. So I love my neighbor.
I do care deeply what black people think and how we treat each other.
"Whooped, and beaten" about this, "shamed out of that".. constantly
beaten down. When will we become the Good Samaritan to each other.

And trust me, if I had to make a living using math, I would need many a
Good Samaritan to survive!!!

cmoney
May 25 2004, 12:36PM

It could be that the howls of criticism against Cosby are the result of African-American's uneasiness with discussions relating to class. We can all relate to racism, but classism is relatively new in our culture. When we were slaves, we were all pretty much at the bottom. Now, there is greater income and educational stratification in the African-American community (much like any other ethnic group). Yet we are loathe to recognize that some of our problems are more related to personal and family situations (class) than they are to larger social dysfunctions (racism). Sometimes it is a combination of the two. Cosby pointed his aim directly at the problems that people create for themselves (bad manners, no initiative, criminal behavior, violence, drug use, premature pregnancy, broken marriages, bad parenting, etc.)and blame others for. Of course, nothing is black and white. Poor people can have excellent morals and values and prosper (Oprah) and rich people can be trash (i.e., George Bush). We can't condemn all who are not college educated, but we shouldn't assume that the rich and powerful have a lock on good values either. We must talk about it, though, if we are to make any changes for the better.
P.S. Cosby's cartoon where good English was not a priority and they hung out in a junk yard was "Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids". It's been a while.

Jeram
May 25 2004, 1:20PM

Looks like Chris Rocks comedy special is starting to reign more true now than ever. I'm sure some of you remember him saying that there is a battle now between the blacks and the niggaz (I'm paraphrasing). I can certainly identify with a lot of the posters who went through the constant label of trying to act "white". I remember going through the same thing in my teenage years. I remember that I blamed my mother for trying to influence me to act white like her. It was years later that I learned that she was only trying help me make something of myself in this white man's world. I bring all this up now because I know for me that those comments were internalized and it kept me from reaching back and helping out those who might be less fortunate. I think both sides go back wtih criticism. We hear from them that we think we're better again because we're trying to be something we're not. Being black is so much more than how someone speaks/behaves. I wish more of them knew that.

Michael
May 25 2004, 1:46PM

Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, but it's a little disturbing that there's this notion that poor blacks need to "pull their weight" only because to me, it implies this idea that we all need to aspire to a watered down all-purpose mocha latte black middle-class where everything fits in conveniently with the status-quo white overclass in America. But of course, this all runs from a stream of consciousness thinking I have about why capitalism is ultimately a double-edged sword that cuts human beings very deeply.

verrone
May 25 2004, 3:58PM

I've read every single one of the posts for this on this particular subject. No, I'm not really "riding the fence on this one", nor am I trying to be "diplomatic". Not my way. But I have to say that I agree with EVERY PERSONS REPSONSE ON THIS TOPIC. Sure, there are variances on the agree or disagree side of Mr. Cosby's comments. I believe everyone here(just my little opinion, everybody...okay?)has some serious valid points on what was said, but more importantly, what is ailing our community overall. I'm not soley blaming one particular race for our social/economic ills(WHITE/EUROPEAN).....although by and large they have had a serious hand in contributing to alot of destruction(both literal and figurative)in not only our community, but toward people of color across the globe(Africans, Aboriginies(Australia), Eastern Indians, Carribean Islands, etc., and so on and on... oh, and I'm sorry y'all, but the lastest on the "hit parade" of raping and overthrowing of gov't's...the Arab world). Although Mr. Cosby's "delivery" was pretty rough and gave the "audience" his version of the "cold, hard facts"; my only problem would have been if he had cleverly tried to tie in his classic brand of "humor" in what we all know and feel is a serious, but sensitve issue that faces our people at this time. No, I'm not shooting the messenger(Cosby), but as someone stated in one of the posts we can't get the full grasp of where he was coming from because we weren't there....but from what I read in Mr. Boykin's article from the audience's response, there was some laughter. Which leads me to believe that 'ole Bill put that little "Cosby humor-spin in his spillage"...oh, I'm sorry, I meant speech, right? Everyone, I believe harsh truths need to be told to us, but personally I would PREFER to have the likes of the following to tell US LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE...WOULD YOU ALL INDULGE ME FOR A FEW??? THE PREFERRED MESSENGERS OF MY CHOOSING WOULD BE: CORNELL WEST, ELAINE BROWN, TAVIS SMILEY, just to name a few...oh I have more, but I just wanted to give everyone an idea of what I think on this issue. It may sound or even seem petty to want to hear hard-hitting truths come from certain folks, but wouldn't you all agree that certain matters of importance....especially when spoken in public with the press in full view "ready to pounce" at any moment....would be well-recieved and REALLY listened to by the community even if it's something alot of people may find hard to digest initially? THESE PEOPLE I HAVE MENTIONED(AS WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., MALCOM X, MARCUS GARVY, AND OTHERS)WOULD NEVVVVVVVVER DO STINTS ON SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, PARADE ON CERTAIN, MEANINGLESS TALK SHOW PROGRAMS, AND THUS MAKING THEMSELVES ALMOST COMIC-LIKE JUSSSST TO LIKEN THEMSELVES TO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AS WELL AS THE PUBLIC!!! EVERYONE READING THIS!! YOU ALL KNOW GOOD AND WELL THOSE INDIVIDUALS I'M SPEAKING OF!! NOW I DON'T WANT TO STEP ON ANY TOES HERE, BUT THE BLACK LEADERS OF OLD, AS WELL AS THE FEW I MENTIONED ABOVE AS WELL AS SOME OTHERS OUT HERE HAVE EFFECTIVELY MADE A DIFFERENCE IN OUR COMMUNITY AND HAVE EFFECTIVELY SPOKEN TO US IN PUBLIC, GIVING US THE HARSH REALITIES OF WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO SUCCEED, ORGANIZE, CLEAN UP OUR MISTAKES, LIFT EACH OTHER UP, INITIATE GRASS-ROOTS GROUPS, AND SO ON......WITHOUT MAKING US LOOK LIFE FOOLS, BAFOONS, IRRESPONSIBLE CHILDREN, AND CAPITALIZING OFF OF OUR CURRENT AND PAST WOES, OR CRISES(IF YOU WILL)BY TRADING IN ALL OF THESE NEGATIVES WITH "A LAUGH-TRACK", OR "BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE". Now, I don't know if Mr. Cosby did this..but judging from the lingo that I read from the article that he used, he very well may have been somewhat of a smart-ass. Even if there were truths in what he said, I'm willing to bet that is why Mr Mfume caught a slight 'tude when taking the podium after Mr. Cosby's speech. It may seen I'm being too analytical with how this whole thing went down, but what we face in this day and time is bad enough(unemployment, homelessness, crime, drugs, violence, getting curious George's older cousin out of office asap so that we can have someone who's brain is fully developed in office....and so on)without smart-ass "sound bites" from those who have gotten selective amnesia about their past and/or who somehow will financially/or politically gain from chastising us in a manner that's just alittle too over the top. Yeah, we need to hear the truth, no doubt, and no, I know coddling and patronizing is not the way to go...but we are an extremely intelligent folk: from urban, uptown, downtown, and rural America. That's just the way it is. How someone who is famous/in the public eye comes across to us can make all the difference in just how receptive alot of our people will be to the message that's being heard. Thank you all for listening. Verrone(real name...Veronica R.) PS. Just one more thing...Reading the posts on this particular website(on all topics brought up by Mr. Boykin)has really been a good education for me, personally, and I just want to tell everyone that regardless of the actual view expressed by each person, it does my heart so good to hear such articulate, down-to-earth, and so-so intelligent black folk from all around, every walk of life....JUST DISCUSSIN'. I pray that important dialogues like these continue...I just wish my 21-month was old enough to read all of this GOOD, INFORMATIVE, READING. WRITE ON!

mark
May 25 2004, 7:28PM

Well,right or wrong Mr.Cosby came from the projects himself. We as Blacks should never become to high and mighty that we look down on ourselves. Shorty before Mr.Cosby's son Ennis was murdered simply because he was Black. Mr Cosby made some derogatory remarks about Black english. If Bill Cosby is so concern about the lack of education by lower income Blacks why doesn't he take his ignorant azz to the inner city and develop some programs to help these people.

Leonardo da Vinci E.
May 25 2004, 8:57PM

Whether we are rich or poor there must come a time to make new distinctions:There ARE those amongst us who wish to struggle...to use minds to consider Justice,fairness,equality...progress.
They actually do that hard work, and can be said to have established constitutional values as a reasonable and rational way to live.

Then there are those who proceed in a different fashion...their reasoning cannot be traced back to the great objective principles governing fairness,it will be based on something other than that.And these two basic personalities are at work in our communities at all times.

You cannot invite the vampire to join you in the sunshine...and all your kinds words will not sway its mind to do that.It has heretofore persuaded you to merely look the other way as it continued to destroy the potential in your culture.It has succeeded in convincing you it is merely your old pal and friend and Cosby was trying to warn you.

jazdin
May 25 2004, 9:32PM

I totally, whole heartedly agree with what Mr. Cosby said. We really do need to start taking responsibility for our own actions. Maybe then we won't feel so not in control of our own destiny. Racism has always existed in this country. The "system" was founded upon rasist principles & supposed "white superiority". That's the way it was, is, & probably always will be so you can't keep using that as an excuse. Some of us are so quick to say "Well, the White man won't let us get anything or have anything". I got news for you(& do pardon my ebonics here): AIN'T NOBODY GON "LET" YOU GET ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD!!! If you want it, you go for yours. Side swipe & elbow your way to the front if you have to. If you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. It seems to me that our forebears achieved & accomplished more back in the day then we today & it was much harder back then. They were lynching, castrating, beating, raping us & everything else they could do & yet our folks still managed to hold on & hope for a brighter day. If this generation were living back then, we as a people in this country will have probably ceased to exist! Some of us seem to be proud of our ignorance. We have access to some much more today but sadly, we don't take advantage of it. I could go on but I won't. I'll just say BIG UP to Mr. Cosby for having the balls to tell it like it is. It's tight, but it's right. Peace & Progress!

Reader
May 25 2004, 11:55PM

Excuse me, but the posters who suggest that classism is a recent phenomenom in Black America are very wrong. The fact is that it goes all the way back to slavery. House slaves tended to be better treated, clothed, and fed and generally acted the part. Then there were slaves who worked outdoors, such as coachmen, blacksmiths, and carpenters. Even though they techinically weren't house slaves their jobs were still valuble and they had close contact with Whites so had better treament and high status (amongst slaves), too. At the very bottom of this order were the field workers. Such was the difference in a field and house slave's rank that on many plantations the two didn't intermingle a lot much less intermarry. After slavery's abolishment and before the Civil Rights movement, despite the grim Jim Crow treatment & widespread Black poverty there did exist a flourshing bourgeois (usually elitist) Black class. Classism is always going to exist in a capitalist society even for its minority populations. Bill Cosby's generation did not invent this.

Jeff Smith
May 26 2004, 1:33AM

Come on people; please remember that Mr. Cosby's remarks were made while speaking at the celebration for the Brown vs. the board of education anniversary. Most of the comments were very well targeted given the fact that blacks had to fight for equality in education and now it appears as if it is all taken for granted by many within the black community. Just take a look at the statistics for the number of African American males enrolled in college versus those that are in prisons. The numbers are alarming.

We must embrace his views and begin dialog within the black community to change these and other alarming truths. Although his comments may be a bit exaggerated his point is well taken. Someone has dropped the ball. Black America needs to wake up and be open to constructive criticism within and outside the black community. Unfortunately some of Mr. Cosby's criticisms can also be applied to other ethnic/classes within our society. We are not the only group seeking immediate gratification through our skewed vision of priorities. Just because I may be poor does not mean I am absent of morals, good judgment and values. So I don't know if the argument of class is a valid discussion. All the money in the world can't buy you good taste, good values or morals. Just take a look at the various "Cribs" type shows featuring African-Americans. Like Mr. Cosby I do not feel it is necessary for me to discuss the ills of white folks. They are not the immediate problem. Before I can clean up the world I first must clean up my own house. And right now my house looks awfully ragged.

Jeff Smith
May 26 2004, 1:35AM

Come on people; please remember that Mr. Cosby's remarks were made while speaking at the celebration for the Brown vs. the board of education anniversary. Most of the comments were very well targeted given the fact that blacks had to fight for equality in education and now it appears as if it is all taken for granted by many within the black community. Just take a look at the statistics for the number of African American males enrolled in college versus those that are in prisons. The numbers are alarming.

We must embrace his views and begin dialog within the black community to change these and other alarming truths. Although his comments may be a bit exaggerated his point is well taken. Someone has dropped the ball. Black America needs to wake up and be open to constructive criticism within and outside the black community. Unfortunately some of Mr. Cosby's criticisms can also be applied to other ethnic/classes within our society. We are not the only group seeking immediate gratification through our skewed vision of priorities. Just because I may be poor does not mean I am absent of morals, good judgment and values. So I don't know if the argument of class is a valid discussion. All the money in the world can't buy you good taste, good values or morals. Just take a look at the various "Cribs" type shows featuring African-Americans. Like Mr. Cosby I do not feel it is necessary for me to discuss the ills of white folks. They are not the immediate problem. Before I can clean up the world I first must clean up my own house. And right now my house looks awfully ragged.

Laura
May 26 2004, 2:15AM

Totally OT, but http://www.condiriceisangry.com/
Pretty funny.

De'George
May 26 2004, 2:28AM

Dr. Bill Cosby taps deep into the constant dialouge about racism and classism in America. I feel that Dr. Cosby was correct in his general assessment that times are begining to get out of hand in Black America. More than ever in a variety of cities across the country, blacks are retrograding, especially amongst males. I find this to be the case due to lack of role models and youth subscribing to a sterotypical image of black American's created by the media, and then propelled by black people's own ignorance not to change. The image that I am refering to is the image of the black gangster, drug addict, or misbehaved juvenille deliquent. The black society conformation to this image is what I believe leads to a lack of growth and progress. The black community as a whole needs the mirror turned on itself and hopefully change can occur. We must continue to strive to be equal and not let language or sterotypical images of black American's hinder our progress or ressolve to be trully equal. It is past the time that blacks begin to re-fight for our equality and are existence, and I for one am ready for the black community to define itself rather than be defined by society. Dr. Cosby's remarks are great reminder that change needs to occur.

Laura
May 26 2004, 2:39AM

As re: the gains and losses vs Brown, I think it's important that the promise turned out to be in part a hoax. Let's look at what happened in the years since Brown.

I grew up in CA, and most school districts here didn't even start to implement Brown until the 70s. By the 80s, resegregation had begun due to changing home-buying patterns, and continues to be on the rise. In regions where there are other minorities in addition to Blacks, the situation is even more complex. Take for instance the Chinese student in San Francisco who is bussed across the city and can't go to their neighborhood school, because there are too many Chinese there. Brown was all about kids being able to attend neighborhood schools.

As for the college scene, at the Federal level, there were a lot more opportunities for free rides in the 70s. By the 80s, grants were changed to loans and what grants -- public and private -- were available were taxed, thanks to Reagan. Now, kids are lucky if they can even GET IN, much less pay for it. This applies to everybody, not just us, but it affects us disproportionately.

But no, let's blame low-income Blacks for all their problems instead of consindering all the factors, including "personal responsiblity".

Carly Fiorina, the CEO of Hewlett Packard said something a few months back (http://tinyurl.com/2qyt9) that made me think, well, this is something that low-income minority kids have been telling us for years: the education system is a joke, and a college degree is no guarantee of getting hired. It follows that some people will think, "what's the point"?

This is not to say that our kids shouldn't aspire to college, just a perspective trying to look at the broader angle.

Cliff
May 26 2004, 3:15AM

It is true that our education system is a joke. On average, the US spends more per pupil than most other industrialized nations and yet based on just about every benchmark, we rank near the bottom.

What's ironic is that just about everybody agrees that the public school system in this country stinks and yet nothing ever changes. It's almost as if we have a vested interest in the status quo because at least it gives us something to complain about.

Part of the problem is a lack of parental involvement. Another problem is unequal funding. I think the federal government should take an active role in ensuring that no matter what state, city or neighborhood you live in, your child will receive a set minimum standard. This will force many states (especially those in the South) to spend much more on education than they currently do.

Jay
May 26 2004, 5:17AM

Just as I was completing this article, I couldn't help but think that this issue is like every issue is when dealing with a problem. Thankfully, it was recognized as such which SHOULD make it more simple to resolve. Once there is an admission of a problem, then & only then can the correct steps be taken to resolve it. However, I've been a firm believer that in order to resolve a problem, the SOURCE of that problem MUST be dealt with initially & consistantly!! Dealing with the residual effects of a problem will not help to get the issue resolved. When the core of the problem is attacked then the best plan of action can be activated. Personally I do believe that the source of this issue is racism. However we as blacks DO have to turn the mirror on ourselves to see clearly how we can overcome that same racism that placed us where we are today mentally. Out of "his-story" comes the blueprints that will eventually pull us from the depths of this dispair our people face every second of every single day. By taking a very careful look at those blueprints, we can see how our minds & spirits were transformed into the very same mentality we have today as a people. Once that is COMPLETELY understood & changed then we'll be well on our way to rising up! As parents we do have to spend more time dealing with the education of our children as well as ourselves. Not one person walking the face of this earth should have an issue with illiteracy. Our technology & mentality is far too advanced for that to happen. Spending time reading (ourselves as parents) AND placing a strong & consistant emphasis on our children's educational enhancement MUST be in the top portions of our priority lists concerning the survival of our people. Education is the key however understanding all of various aspects of EDUCATION is also just as important. Education is not limited to the classroom. It must be made a DAILY routine within our homes!

Marlon
May 26 2004, 8:12AM

Allow me to share two profound excerpts I think fosters two problematic variables: socialization and conformity; some of us become permanently damaged, and many survive. But can one fully recover?

Cosby’s solution: a big heap of social deconstructivism + existentialism(personal responsibity) for some would soothe a few ailments.

“Cool Posing”(aka 'dumbing down') has been the example of "Cool" for too long; too many of us were/are victims. I was a victim.

1) Society places many pressures on boys to act tough, follow a strict code of masculinity and hide their emotions at all costs. This makes it difficult for adults to notice when boys are actually fairing poorly at school, when their friendships are not working out, and when they are feeling depressed or even suicidal.

Many boys are taught to repress their yearnings for love and connection and instead, build an invisible, impenetrable wall of toughness, a ‘cool pose’. Hidden by an emotional mask of masculine bravado or invulnerability, this leaves them isolated, forcing them to experience a gamut of lonely painful problems ranging from academic failure and drug abuse, to struggles with friends, clinical depression, attention deficit disorder (ADD) and even suicide and murder. The same kind of shame that silences girls from expressing their voices as adolescents takes a toll on boys as well, sometimes at a much earlier age.

2) Most people go through life having never really lived. They surrender their individuality, step by step, day after day -- until eventually, it dies. The process begins in the earliest days of childhood and becomes thoroughly ingrained by adulthood.

As teenagers, they mindlessly mask the beliefs and attitudes of others because they want to be "popular." As adults, they fulfill unchosen family and social obligations out of a sense of "duty." They submit to and support government restrictions on their freedom because they believe that doing so is "responsible."

They are victims of their own conformity -- their passive acquiescence to others' ideas and values. It is conformity, therefore, that one must defeat if he or she wishes to be free -- and ultimately wishes to really live.

Living life to its fullest is the essence of self-liberation.

Excerpts:
1)Listening to Boys’ Voices: A Research Project of Dr. William Pollack; and
2)Individualist Voice.com.

Richard Kirkwood
May 26 2004, 3:24PM

Let me just say this, I ain't mad at him for saying it. Yeah there are a lot of other factors weighing in on this subject. But the overall comments made were defintely to the point. I don't see why so many people are shocked, they should be glad that someone had the guts to finally come out and say it, and Bill
Cosby with his celebrity people listened. It got tounges to wagging and I think that was his primary reason for doing it. Now the boycott is stupid, when we need boycott something that really means something black people are no where to be found. But tell them about themselves and everyone is screaming bloody murder. Black people need to grow their asses up and stop playing the poor me victim. Always coming up with excuses to
why explain why they can't or won't do things that will advance them in their lives. Blacks may have been the most oppressed but they weren't the only oppressed people in this country. Others minority groups seem to do what they got to do and do it with their groups and they succeed, why can't we do that? Don't
come up with another excuse, I've heard enough.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 5:25PM

Let me just say this. YES.

It's really time the black community destigmatize a good education and replace the excuse of "racism" with another "r" word: Responsibility.

Julian Bond knows the statistics of black kids compared to white kids sitting in the same class rooms across America. He discussed them on a special broadcast on MSNBC and NBC regarding Brown v. Board of Education. They are startling statistics that ought to be a wake up call to black America.

White people have to stop being afraid of black people or black mobs cackling "racism" everytime there is an opportunity for us to confront problems like we confront them with fellow white people. We really can't do that until the black community can get over this sense that demands to do better from white people is "racism."

Employers have a lot of choices when they have a job opening. Unfortunately, a lot of blacks are shut out of jobs and view it as racism when nearly 100% of the time, as it is for anyone who doesn't get the job, it's because someone else presented themselves way better.

A good education goes a long way toward evening the playing field.

Laura
May 26 2004, 7:13PM

I disagree, Christian. Whites need to clean up their own backyard - take care of your Lynndie Englands and Newt Gingriches and Ken Lays, then we can perhaps talk about responsibility.

Leonardo da vinci E.
May 26 2004, 7:40PM

...But grant me this:If I dislike the word "morality" it is because it is usually connected with some narrow religious code written by some near barbaric minds,narrow and partisan in scope...but let us not allow others to define our lives in their own misguided terms...let us define it in a meaningful manner so that it becomes what it really is:Freedom in the uniqueness of the individual which neither takes unfair advantage of others nor unfairly forces itself upon others,and let us call this having "ethics"...the gay ones.And I know we continue to have struggles and so at times we must provide the "static" which provides opportunity for others to re-examine their unfair positions(for weal or for woe),and I know how sad that is....but for us,we who are a breed apart,there is no reason for us to limit ourselves to the scope of those who plainly are not reaching for the best potential in culture.Do not wait for them any longer...there is no reason why WE cannot achieve what they CANNOT.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 8:59PM

Laura, would white people taking care of our "Lynndie Englands and Newt Gingriches and Ken Lays" help black kids get a better education? I don't think so, but if you do, maybe you can educate us.

You represent a classic symptom that is pervasive in the black community. When it's time to take responsibility, you prefer to talk about something the white people need to do that has nothing to do with black people's problems.

Black America deserves better leadership and vision than that.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 9:12PM

How many people here think if white people were to put our "Lynndie Englands and Newt Gingriches and Ken Lays" in jail that this would make black kids read more? How many think it would make black kids run home and do their homework? How many think it would make black parents push their kids to value education, be in by 10 p.m., and turn off the television? I don't. What makes those things happen are families that care and community leaders with a clearer vision of what the real problems are.

Laura
May 26 2004, 9:43PM

Point is, Christopher, though many of them think they are, whites aren't in a position to lecture Blacks about "responsibility". Take responsibility for/in your own communities. Then perhaps we can have a conversation about it.

Laura
May 26 2004, 9:49PM

oops - Christian, not Christopher.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 10:37PM

Laura, if you don't want white people to help take responsibility for kids where black people don't, which is what happens in a responsible community of people that care, then what would you like a white teacher to do when a black kid doesn't do their homework? Would you prefer the white teacher not "lecture" the black student on responsibility and only pressure the white kids to succeed? That's the silliest recipe for success I've ever heard, and most black leaders would agree.

Would you prefer the white teacher call the police and have those white people on your list arrested so the black kids will all of a sudden love to do their homework? You haven't presented a single thoughtful solution here. In fact, you've given a stereotypical voice to the very problem that's hurting black America the most.

Laura
May 26 2004, 11:15PM

Ok well, I guess you didn't read where my approach is twofold. "Personal responsibility", of course, while remianing mindful of institutional issues that persist. Both, at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.

You originally said, "We really can't do that until the black community can get over this sense that demands to do better from white people is 'racism.'"

Difference is that your white teacher is acting in the capacity of an educator, different from the general, unspecific "white people" you mentioned, above. There are a lot of Black teachers, like say, my parents, who go into the profession and deal with the same problems, everyday.

Finally, not sure why disagreement with one thing you said somehow emblematic of everything wrong with Black America, as you call it. But that very mentality gives you away. You're the one with stereotypical voice here, not me.

Bookwise
May 27 2004, 1:14AM

Speaking of classism during slavery, let us not forget those "free Negroes" who owned slaves, themselves. I wouldn't exactly consider them a part of the common folk.

& speaking of Marcus Garvey, one of his most famous quotes were, "I have no desire to take all black people back to Africa, there are blacks who are no good here and will likewise be no good there". This was said all the way back in '20's, proving that there was a concern even then with Blacks who weren't trying to hard enough to "pull their weight" and better the community overall.

And for the people who are trying to discredit Cosby by bringing up his personal problems, save it for kindergarten class tomorrow. That is one weak, childish way of attacking a person's argument. What happened in his personal life has nothing to do with whether he's right or wrong about this issue, nor does it hinder his ability to assess issues such as these. We are not talking about a known child molester, a murderer or flagrant drug addict here.

David
May 27 2004, 1:20AM

Can we not set off another avalanche of Laura's tirades again? She's already proven that she's holds a monopoly on truth ( check out her "fabulous" performance in "Heroes of the Month: April 2004). Just let her be! I have a problem with these so-called radical liberals [ and I am assuming Laura calls herself one]. They just as irrational as their conservative counterparts. God, please save us from Laura!

Kevin
May 27 2004, 2:16AM

To me, there is never an inconvenient time and place for the truth. I offer that we attempt to understand that racism is now a swift undercurrent hidden by the deceptively calm surface of politically correct verbiage espousing diversity. With this understanding, it might prove beneficial to acknowledge, accept and pass on to each generation that in order to succeed in this world we still must be twice as good as those who would choose to impede our progression. In doing so, perhaps we will merely enhance our presence as a driving force in not only this but any society in the world. I struggle to find an instance where intellectual expansion of self has caused personal injury. To the contrary, this ideology may inspire and motivate and foster self esteem and self actualization. I thank you for this opportunity to express my opinion.

HouLou
May 27 2004, 3:26AM

Laura, I support you. I fully understand what you mean. Christian Grantham wants to tell African-Africans what we should do, but he doesn't want to listen to what we have to say about some whites. Wouldn't it be nice if some people could simply accept an honest 360º evaluation?

The problem is that some white people, because of their inherent superiority complex, assume that their social problems are unlike that of minorities no matter how much their problems actually mirror minorities.

Lots of white people, such as Christian Grantham, like to reprimand African-Americans, but when confronted about similar issues portions of their own community face they do exactly what he does which is deflect.

We African-Americans know that we have problems in some portions of our community, and there are many programs across the country that seek to fight the ills in portions of our communities. This fact should not be ignored in light of Cosby's remarks.

The problem with Cosby's remarks, despite some validity to them, is that they allow people like Christian Grantham to come out of the woodwork with their paternalistic supremacist diatribes. African-Americans here were discussing this topic in a respectable "give and take" fashion, and then here he comes with his mess.

There are African-Americans who are well renown surgeons, lawyers, Astronauts, physicists, educators, architects etc., but how reputable is Christian Grantham while he's criticizing others? Look at the man in the mirror, Christian. Get your own house in order.

It's unfortunate that some white people always feel they know what's good for black people. Some have good intentions, but others simply get thrills by sitting on their high horse.

Like you Laura, I too believe that some white people are in no better position to tell black people about "responsibility".

Let's talk about social "responsibility" in general - it's really the essence of what Keith pointed out in his commentary.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 4:28AM

Christian please get off your soap box. The very last thing we need is another preaching from White America about what's wrong with us. This was the very essence of why this issue is rarely spoken about in public. If you were intimately familiar with our community you would have known that and would have avoided this topic or at least been somewhat respectful in your comments.

You come in here making these gross generalizations and oversimplification about an issue that it's apparent you know very little. It's one thing for a black person to generalize about his or her community, becuase it's assumed that he/she knows that their statements are mere generalizations and aren't applied to the entire race, but it's completely different when a white person does it because they almost always don't have the ability to distinguish between the actions of an individual or a group within a larger group. Because of laziness you guys usually just want to paint the whole damn group the same picture. And all your comments above, illustrates that to a tee.

So for heaven sake, just stay out of this one please. Go join a discussion amongts other whites and contemplate having White America take full responsibility for discrimination, making the legal system fair and just, ending police brutality, removing the glass ceiling, improving diversity in the media, lack of knowledge about other cultures, having children that commit mass murder in our schools, allowing their government to support SA Apartheid, racial violence, the increase in white supremist groups, the OK City bombing, and whatever else White America should have an open an honest discussion about but NEVER DO. Once yall have had that discussion, then let's compare notes. OK?

jaymillionaire
May 27 2004, 7:48AM

Bill Cosby is stuck in a time where blacks strived to assimilate in order to join the power-group in attempts to form a colorless society. There is only one thing wrong with the point of view of those who believe--like Cosby in regards to white supremacy "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!".

To attack the language dialect and pattern of African Americans (or any culture group)is an outdated and racist practice of intelligence measurement.

Any linguistic expert worth their salt will tell you that language patterns do not equate to how smart a person is: that is a direct contradiction to what we were taught, as African Americans, that we must not "embarass ourselves in front of white folks".

Before Mr. Cosby trashes our race for our social ills and mores let him explain how scandelous it is to cheat on your wife, and then have you bastard daughter arrested!

aquafemme2003
May 27 2004, 10:33AM

Here's what I don't understand: why is is that if Bill Cosby suggests that blacks need to better themselves, suddenly he is advocating white assimilation. Hello - why does education and economic advancement automatically become associated with white? Those of you with that mentaility are part of the problem.

I think Laura is full of excuses and wants to play the blame game rather than acknowledging that a woefully large percentage of the black community just doesn't give a damn and no matter what hands or handouts are extended to them, plan to drink Kool Aid and watch their stories all day. Christian's problem is he's playing right into her hands. When we get these sort of personal dynamics going on, it really detracts from the overall issue - which, might I add, is not going on and on about what the problem is, but trying to solve it!

aquafemme2003
May 27 2004, 10:35AM

Let me also add that it is correct to say that any attacks on Mr. Cosby's person are simply red herrings used by those who can't argue above the belt. There's actually a latin term for this since it's a well known fallacy...but I can't remember it right now.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 11:02AM

The Latin word for attacking someone's character rather than answering his argument is "Ad-hominem". And I completely agree, it has no place in this debate. Just because Cosby is not perfect, does not mean he can't voice his opinions. If only a perfect person can voice his opinion, then we are going to have a very quiet debate.

Jay- Yes, someone's dialect may not necessarily indicate a person's intelligence. However, it can hinder that person from getting a job, which was exactly what Cosby was trying to say. Whether we like it or not Corporate America is not interested in hiring people who can't speak proper English. That not only applies to blacks but it also applies to whites. Southern whites with thick, heavy accents and poor command of the langauge are also at a disadvantage (not to mention Latinos and Asians, who have heavy accents because English is their 2nd language). People will always judge someone by their communication skills. I also take exception with good communication skills and speaking proper English being called assimilation. Speaking the language properly and having good communication skills is not a "White" thing.

Christian Grantham
May 27 2004, 11:47AM

aquafemme2003, I don't think me argueing the point that we need to destigmatize the value of a good education is "playing right into her hands" or "detracts from the overall issue." The real issue is exactly what I and others are addressing, including Bill Cosby.

White people aren't falling into any traps by confronting those that want to ignore the problem. White people, as well as most black people here, are doing what a community needs to do when the Laura's of America cackle their irresponsible nonsense. And there are plenty of white Laura's out there, too.

We have to learn to confront those problems together and support those that stand up to hollow arguements advocating why the rest of us should not care and mind our own business. The marketplace of ideas is where that happens. Keith has done a great job with this blog to facillitate that discussion, and Bill Cosby has done a great job generating a national dialogue on the issue.

Troy
May 27 2004, 1:41PM

The truth hurts and when one of us even begins to shed that light we get bashed! HA!
Good for you Bill, it should've been said and discussed years ago! You go Mr. Jello! Tell it like it is! Repeated here for the one's who never ever listen util it's almost too late...

According to a Washington Post transcript, here are some of the remarks made by actor-comedian-philanthropist Bill Cosby on May 17 in Washington, D.C., during the gala commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education:


"People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around. . . . The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting."

"I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? And where is the father?"

"People putting their clothes on backward: Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong? . . . People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up . . . and got all type of needles (piercing) going through her body? What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a . . . thing about Africa."

"With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail. Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem. We have got to take the neighborhood back. . . . They are standing on the corner and they can't speak English."

"People used to be ashamed. . . . [Today] a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands,' or men or whatever you call them now."

"The idea is to one day get out of the projects. You don't just stay there."

"We have millionaire football players who can't read. We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs."

"We as black folks have to do a better job. . . . Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us. We have to start holding each other to a higher standard."

". . . We cannot blame white people. . . . ."

"The incarcerated? These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, saying, 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

We need more Bill Cosbys and more Keith Boykin's, whose light and clear determination, may they always always shine!!

cmoney
May 27 2004, 1:45PM

I stand by my comments about classism being a "relatively new" phenomenon in African-American culture and that we are uncomfortable discussing it (why do you think Cosby's comments caused such a firestorm among African-Americans? Have you ever heard such an uproar about a white celebrity decrying "white trash" and "rednecks"? Heck, Jim Foxworthy became a rich comedian telling redneck jokes).
During slavery, a slave was a slave was a slave, whether he or she was working the fields or doing laundry. They all knew that they had no control over their own destiny and couldn't honestly blame another slave for his or her own lot in life. Those decisions were made by the slavemaster. Up until about WWI, you could count on one hand the number of Black Ph.D's. Yes, there was an African-American middle class (preachers, teachers, morticians and a few doctors), but miniscule in number compared to today. We seem to forget that it was a VERY rare thing for African-Americans to go to college and get a good middle class job until recently. Up until the 60's and 70's most African-Americans did not have the opportunity to do anything that we would call professional or academic in nature. During Jim Crow, the failure to achieve was easily ascribed to the fact that racism was the law of the land. As such, we didn't blame each other for failing to achieve. It was understandable that an African-American with a college degree would be lucky to get a job in the post office and that his kids would not likely go to college. You could be as uppity and bougie as you wanted to be, but you were still sorting letters or mopping the floor next to your neighbor who had no education. Today, we have many opportunities, yet seem to have gone backwards by many measures that Cosby addressed (broken homes, poor behavior, violent crime, etc.) Our response has not progressed beyond the usual culprit--racism. Racism still exists, but no one can honestly say that today's society is anywhere close to the way it was when our gradparents were kids. Some of us become millionaires and others end up on welfare. Why? We need to start looking at some other causes for our problems and Bill Cosby has certainly evoked a good discussion to that end.

Laura
May 27 2004, 2:44PM

Would someone explain how 1- acknowledging the responsibility issue and 2- acknowledging institutional issues is "irresponsible" or "making excuses"? Some of us have a simple disagreement with Cosby on this. I don't see why that is so controversial.

Christian's superficial assumptions about Blacks vs whites make his MO clear and he's nothing new. Friend, we don't need any more sermons from condescending whites. Seriously. It's not your job.

Thanks Troy for posting most of the Cosby speech text. "People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up?" - lol.

Christian Grantham
May 27 2004, 4:35PM

Laura, you are so laughable :) Most people view the task of pushing our nation's kids to value education as all our jobs, no matter what color you are. Your notion that it's not white people's job to care about black kids is the exact opposite of what respected black leaders and most people believe.

In fact, your idea that white people pushing black kids to be more responsible and value an education is somehow a "sermon from condescending whites" sums up your lack of vision very nicely.

Your position isn't just harmful to the black community, it's harmful to America in general, and that's the root of the problem both blacks and whites will address together whether you like it or not. ;)

mee
May 27 2004, 4:40PM

Christian Grantham,
You should not argue with Laura. She has a whole different mindset.....

Laura
May 27 2004, 5:08PM

Christian, you don't know anything about my ideas, since you haven't even read what I've written. We don't need *condescending* whites, yourself for instance, telling us what's good for us. That's never been what helps our people.

I disagree with your assumptions and your approach and now, I'm a threat to America? The hubris is almost unbelievable.

jaymillionaire
May 27 2004, 7:52PM

Nobody speaks the English language "proper" in the United States. You should go to Britain if you want to hear "proper" english.

The ethnocentric irony of speaking mainstream "American" english has been used to oppress Irish Americans, Italian Americans, German Americans, Scottish Americans and African Americans by those who spent half their life in college studying what others were busting their ass doing.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 8:29PM

Jay, you know I meant, don't be absurd. We speak American English not British English. So speaking the proper language is to speak proper American English.

Why does everything have to be about oppression. Now just asking someone to speak properly and to communicate effectively is oppression. Good lord, I give up.

Our problems will never be solved. Instead of focusing on the issues and trying to improve the lives of people, we'd rather focus on the 'man', 'oppression' and the 'system', all of which does absolutely nothing to make the situation better.

Reader
May 27 2004, 8:49PM

Cmoney you are also standing by the statement that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I don;t really like the breaking-down-comments-thingy, but bare with me.

"why do you think Cosby's comments caused such a firestorm among African-Americans? Have you ever heard such an uproar about a white celebrity decrying "white trash" and "rednecks"? Heck, Jim Foxworthy became a rich comedian telling redneck jokes"

Uh, because maybe Black people in general are getting way too hypersensitive about anything other than absolute praise and taking the FAKE politcally correct era way out of hand? When it gets to the point where even a Black person has to tip-toe around eggshells because they might hurt somebody's wittle-bitty feelings, then this is evidence that the whole thing is becoming just asinine and benefitting no one.

"During slavery, a slave was a slave was a slave, whether he or she was working the fields or doing laundry. They all knew that they had no control over their own destiny and couldn't honestly blame another slave for his or her own lot in life."

And how do you know all of this? Are you old enough to have lived amongst them and observe their relations? Or do you have some sort of retro telepathy to be able to know what "they all knew"? If not, please list for us the sources for which you're basing your conclusions on. I've read extensively about American slavery and that's how I formed the content of my 1st post, books titles like 'The Slave Community','Bullwhip days', 'Lay my burden down', 'Twelve Years a Slaves', and 'The Life & Times of Frederick Douglass' amongst several others. Please name a few sources, independent of each other, which supports your stance so that I will be stood corrected.

"Up until about WWI, you could count on one hand the number of Black Ph.D's. Yes, there was an African-American middle class (preachers, teachers, morticians and a few doctors), but miniscule in number compared to today. We seem to forget that it was a VERY rare thing for African-Americans to go to college and get a good middle class job until recently."

You just proved my point despite yourself with this acknowledgement: "Yes, there was an African-American middle class". Whether it was a large one in comparison to what we have today is a non-issue. It did exist, period, which was my original point. Plus, are "preachers, teachers, morticians and a few doctors" the only ways to earn a decent living? You ever heard of a little something called entertainment? Walker & Williams? Ma & Pa Rainey? Sissieretta Jones? Ernest Hogan? Scott Joplin? Eubie Blake? James Scott? I can go on and on, we are a talented people. Entertainment not sophisticated enough? How about intellectuals and inventors like Booker T. Washington? Madame C.J. Walker? Jan Ernt Matzeliger, Lewis Howard Latimer, George Washington Williams, George Washington Carver, Granville T Woods, agina I can go on. Clearly if these poeple had the same defeatist mindset as you then they would've indeed been shinning someone's shoes or scrubbing some floor somewhere.

"It was understandable that an African-American with a college degree would be lucky to get a job in the post office and that his kids would not likely go to college. You could be as uppity and bougie as you wanted to be, but you were still sorting letters or mopping the floor next to your neighbor who had no education."

Your entire post proves that you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of Black history- NIL. As a matter of fact, these above comments REEK of a Black person with not only lack of knowledge but a huge inferiorty complex, too. I first suggest some serious reading. It's sad that a person who has the means to gain knowledge (literacy, a computer) has to assume their ways through a discussion.

Reader
May 27 2004, 8:59PM

Furthermoe, I'd like to add that the people I mentioned previously were definitely not the types who would've been having millions of kids out of wedlock, throwing their lives away on petty crime, disrespecting their (figurative) brothers and sisters, and spending half their paycheck on clothes and other technological junk they could live without. These people were upper-class NOT solely based on their paychecks. It had most to do with their mindset, how they carried themselves and they're behavior towards other Blacks. A person doesn't have to be rich to have class.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 10:10PM

I agree that cmoney grossly oversimplified the black social stratification of the past. We were not all considered on the same social standing even during slavery. There was a middle class and a upper class element in our society.

kbpolo3g
May 27 2004, 11:46PM

I Totally agree with Mr. Cosby, it is obvious among African Americans that there is a low sense of self worth and accomplishment. This is due inpart because we would rather spend hundreds of dollars on the latest designs, or on our cars than to actually invest in something that is going to benifit us in the long run; such as a college education. We need to stop feeling sorry for ourselfs and start taking responsibilty for our own shortcomings.

Reader
May 27 2004, 11:56PM

Thanks, Cliff, for affirming the truth. Cmoney has not only an oversimpified view of our ancestors, but an idealistic one, as well. According to him Blacks were so oppressed by Whites (now that part is very true) that they all huddled together with an equal amount of love and respect for one another out of neccessity if nothing else. That sounds great, but it wasn't always the case (that IS someting we should all be striving towards, though). Sometimes the loathing Blacks received was in turn unleashed on each other. That's a strange but true aspect of human nature: we tend to hurt the ones closest to us. Now he does have something if one is just talking strictly about the deep South. Just about any time a Black person got a little money, power, or success there, they were literally crushed by KKK and other evil racists. It was very hard for Blacks to get decent educations or to find work that wasn't merely a low-pay version of what their parents did as slaves. This was the cause for the mass migration in the 1920's up North, which is a slightly different story, yesteryear and today.

P.S.- I forgot to mention the Negro Leagues in my 2nd post. Until proven otherwise I doubt that the players of 1904 were any less aloof than the major leaguers of today.

HouLou
May 28 2004, 1:01AM

If some of those Cosby quotes are accurate, I am even more shocked to say the least.

I have no problem with names such as Shaniqua, Taliqua, etc. although I used to. After a major EPIPHANY, I realized that such names are as genuinely a part of our African-American culture as the name "Aakarshan" is to Hindu culture.

Such names aren't just cultural identifiers that defy Eurocentrism, but are an expression of cultural ingenuity. Whether the names come from the poorest African-American populace or not, people should seek to understand and learn to embrace because it isn't going to change.

Subconsciously, some of us still struggle with being identified as "black" and such names epitomize "black" identification. How many people cringed at the name "Kwame Jackson" (2nd runner up on The Apprentice). Sad, but many did. Such names are not negative. They are just different than the Eurocentric names we are accustomed.

Let's not bring up the fact that we also struggle with accepting other positive God-given aspects of African-American culture.

Shame on Mr. Cosby for mocking the names. Shaniqua or Taliqua don't stand a chance when people like Mr. Cosby write them off JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR NAMES. Some babies are barely out of the womb and are laughed at and deemed "ghetto" children just because of the names they are given. Do I dare say that we are the ONLY culture in the world who laugh at the names our children are given?

Is our collective esteem that damaged?

No wonder some of our children don't get a chance to develop into productive citizens. We are prejudiced against our own.

Last, all one has to do is look at the names below to see that Afrocentric names are a part of our everyday lives. Many of these black Americans are doing well in their occupations.

1. Trazanna Halstead-Moreno, former KPRC anchor in Houston
2. Ashanti Douglas (R&B singer, Hip-Hopstress)
3. Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
4. Oprah Winfrey, Media Mogul
5. Kendis Gibson, CNN Entertainment Reporter
6. Fredericka Whitfield, CNN Weekend Anchor
7. Kwame Jackson, (The Apprentice, Harvard graduate)
8. Beyonce Knowles, Triple Threat Entertainer

The list could go on and on.

Wake up black people!

out GWM
May 28 2004, 5:04AM

Although Cosby did make some valid points, I think he was totally off base with his comments about names.

Asians have non-Anglo names and it creates no problems. For example, people from China have names line Chen, Sun, and San. People from Japan have names like Akio and Inamoto. People from India have names like Vinod, Gyanendra, and Rajeshwar. Even some Europeans have unusual names, for example Italian and Russian names. These names don't cause problems, so why the concern regarding the unusual names that some black Americans give their children?

cmoney
May 28 2004, 10:54AM

It's amazing how someone who calls themselves, "Reader" can misread what I wrote. How do you get that I have a "huge inferiority complex" out of stating that, in the past, African-Americans with college degrees were forced to work in menial jobs? That was a simple fact of life back then. You named about 15 people who made a good living during our more oppressive times. So what! There were also millions of African-American sharecroppers who, as you noted, migrated out of the South to escape that horrible life. Most African-Americans did not have the options that we have today and that is point I was trying to make. Cosby and people of his standing can make valid criticisms of the failure of people to take control of their lives because these people have failed to take advantage of the opportunities that exist today. We can't simply blame racism all the time. My grandfather never went to college and spent most of his life working in labor and construction. I don't blame him for not having a M.D. because in North Carolina in the 1920's African-American men were strongly discouraged from getting a college education . BUT, he raised 11 kids who all went to college and were never caught up in crime. He took care of his family. He taught them morals. His story was not unusual. Today it would be. The issue Cosby is pointing out is that even with all of the opportunities we have today, parents won't raise their kids and many of their kids have no interest in getting an education. So READER, you don't know "what the hell you are talking about" if you think that I have a "huge inferiority complex". I am fully aware that there were wealthy African-Americans in the past. If you read my post, I noted that they were miniscule in number. And no, I wasn't around 120 years ago--were you? Everyone knows of the people you mentioned, so spare me the Black History Month lecture. I am more concerned with the nameless millions of African-Americans who never made it to the history books, yet paved the way for smart asses like you to sit at a computer screen and not work in a field somewhere. Obviously, you have a problem with anyone who SEEMINGLY disagrees with you. Talk about classism...

cmoney
May 28 2004, 11:34AM

Also,, I am quite proud of the accomplishments of our people despite oppression. The janitors, the field hands, the doctors, the teachers, the laborers. They survived through adversity so that we can be here. Will our descendants have anything to be proud about? We rap, we dance, we kill each other (no need for the lynch mob), we sell drugs to each other, we father children and leave them. Our history is not so much the Harlem Renaissance heroes we read about, but the everyday people who slogged and toiled to make us who we are. There is no need for all of us to be a nobel laureate or a superstar singer. If only we could do the small everyday things for ourselves and our community that our grandparents and other ancestors did for us, our descendants will have much to thank us for.

Jacqui
May 28 2004, 12:25PM

Bill Cosby is right. When are we going to have leaders that have our best interest in mind? When, as a group of people, are we going to stop blaming everyone else and become responsible members of society.

Bill, is the only African American "Leader", today, who has had nerve enough to publicly point out our short commings. We never look in the mirror, we consistently blame everyone else for our troubles.

Let's take a long look at BET, one of our more prominent TV channels, and see what others see of us: Shaking booties; foul mouth men using and abusing women and each other; plenty of "my baby daddy" drama; promoting the theory that crime, after all, is what we are all about, so it must be ok.

We are not sending a message that we have morals; have clear judgment; want and seek education; have family values. We do send a message that it is all about the bling, bling at whatever cost. This is what our young people see, hear and digest on a daily. No wonder we can't move forward!

Our ministers preach, just give to their ministries (While their coffers get hefty),pray to God and he will give us all that we ask for. Well, my brothers and sisthas, this is not what God promised us. The rude awaking is that everyone will not become rich: however, everyone can be comfortable. Let's remember not to try and use God as if he/she were a VISA card. He/she will gladly supply our needs but will shy away from supplying our every want. Just like we do as parents with our children. We do not give our children everything they want. Everything our children want, may not be good for them!

If we focus, we will find that our communities are made up of doctors, lawyers, teachers, truck drivers, transit workers, insurance brokers, financial advisors, bueaticians, barbers, store owners and many other interesting and rewarding jobs. We, need people to fill these jobs or even start business that we do not have in our communities, but we want.

With an economy that is fast becoming a world market, we are slipping further and further behind because we have our heads buried in the sand. Wake up everybody there's a new world in town. It encompasses all peoples and nations. If we don't conform, we will be left behind to always be beggers and not providers.

The bottom line: Who cares if we're not liked because of the color of our skin. That issue is as old as the beginning of time. We need to move on and focus our attention on: Are our communities growing economically because of our efforts?; Is the bling, bling flowing freely within our communities for all to benefit from?: Are the majority of our residents taking part in the building process?: And lastly, do we like ourselves as a reuslt of our efforts?!

HouLou
May 28 2004, 12:29PM

Let's not lose sight of that fact that while there are self-destructive behaviors that happen in segments of our population, there is still racism and discrimination.

For example, WWOR (UPN-NYC) did an I-Team investigation which exposed a pattern of discrimination against black people. They did an undercover investigation of a (white) hispanic-owned employment agency. The female owner would turn away black testers citing "no jobs" or "hiring only Spanish-speaking women for cleaning jobs". Then when the white testers went to the agency she flipped through the books citing all types of available jobs. She never even looked in the book when the black testers went in for jobs. The testers all had the same credentials and dress. The owner was reported to a New York state regulation authority.

Point is, while we do have to acknowledge self-destructive behaviors, we cannot deny that blatant discrimination exists.

This is why so many well known respected blacks are up in arms about Cosby's comments. He failed to balance out his comments. He could have simply said, "I realize that racism and discrimination are nagging problems, BUT the black poor needs to get its act together too", and continued his discombobulated tirade from there.

I also want to point out that while there are some irresponsible black men who father children then leave them, there are some black women choosing to have children out-of-wedlock - even though they are not prepared to have the children in the first place.

Personal responsible goes both ways. In a lot cases, both should have been using contraceptives anyway.

Cliff
May 28 2004, 12:48PM

Yes, we do have to remember that discrimination and racism exists and is unlikely to end anytime soon (if ever). Unfortunately some people will always refuse to hire us because of our race and no matter what the government does they will always find a way to avoid hiring us.

I think more than anything that should encourage us to build up our own communities and enterprises. That requires all of us (poor or not) to take full responsibility for our actions. Those of us who are successful have to take some responsibility for improving the lives of our people still in poverty. It's not enough that we demand that they pull themselves out of poverty, we also have to help them.

Michael Gray-Jordan
May 28 2004, 3:41PM

Does anyone know if a transcript of Dr. Cosby's speech is available online? I'm always cautious about forming an opinion based on out-of- context excerpts.

M.
Saint Paul, Minnesota, U.S.A.

derrick
May 28 2004, 4:14PM

I may be reducing this to the lowest denominator but I believe the gist of his argument is the lack of zeal for education. When we had nothing else we were able to hold our heads high with our Godly knowledge. The church taught us to read, how to effectively communicate, and to take pride on our strengths. These days people have no use for education, even those like my grandfather with only grade school formal training, learn to read the bible, learned to write so that they could be understood. These are basic skills that everyone should have and its sad that so many people lack these. :(

Leonardo da Vinci E.
May 28 2004, 5:59PM

It is not a matter of racism....it is a matter of what ones CULTURE(subculture)is doing.If it can be affiliated with violence,abuse,and hatemaking...then it is unsupportable,but not to support that may look outwardly as racism,when you might find less "static"when interactions change over time and ones cultural affectations change for the better.

Reader
May 28 2004, 7:49PM

Cmoney, I didn't read past the first sentence of your post, since you have long-since proved that you're a MORON, plain and simple. Why waste any more of my time engaging with some who knows nothing about the subject at hand? What would I get out of that? So we'll have to agree to disagree that you're an idiot.

Don't feed the monkeys
May 29 2004, 3:40AM

cmonkey,

Give it a rest girl. How does somebody think they know so much, and yet know so little? You really need to keep an open mind on things and stop thinking whatever you say is the gold standard.

But I know you'll keep talking girl, hopefully someday you'll say something intelligent.

HouLou
May 29 2004, 3:53AM

Leonardo da Vinci E., deny it if you will, but racism is still a contributing factor to the plight of some black poor.

Furthermore, with that asinine logic of yours I guess that means no one should embrace white people because of their CULTURE (subculture).

Europeans basically invented "violence, abuse, and hatemaking". Many went around the world killing people and colonizing lands that were not theirs - supposedly "discovering" lands that were fine without foreign exploits. Native Americans, Carib Indians, and Arwak Indians are either extinct or were almost extinct because of the "violence, abuse, and hatemaking" they experienced on their native soil at the hands of some Europeans.

The war in Iraq is another European sham to exploit a people and its resources. They don't want your white (nor our colored) faces there. Yet we have a President who wants to "stay the course". Why? He is an oilman from Texas and knows a bunch of oilmen who are like him. Bush doesn't care if his friends at Halliburton rape taxpayers of $200-billion dollars, like his friend Kenneth Lay and his cronies at Enron raped employees and shareholders of their salaries, pensions, and stock while becoming the biggest corporate failure in U.S. history.

U.S. servicemen and women are being killed in Iraq (over 800 since 2003) behind the guise of democracy and "discovering" WMD's, just because some Europeans (subculture) wanted to exploit Iraqi oilfields. They killed Saddam sons, herded up his cabinet up like a deck a cards because he didn't play fair with Iraqi oilfields.

America cares about Iraq's oil. America didn't care about how Saddam treated his people just like America didn't care about the massacre of 600,000 Rawandans.

In Iraq, innocent children and adults are being killed by American WMD's (Helicopter Gunships, MOAB's, heavy tanks, and other sophisticated artillery). And let's not forget the TORTURE chambers Europeans (subculture) sanctioned Iraq, who then took pictures gleefully, like they did when they lynched and burned many innocent black men and women during slavery and Jim Crow.

Europeans have exploited resources of other people's land for their own personal gain and attempt to do so to this day. They brutally enslaved the African, Chinese, Indian, and Irish for their own selfish gains. They nuked the Japanese – the only time nukes have been used in a war.

"Violence, abuse, and hatemaking" is a part European CULTURE (subculture) too. The founding fathers of the United States, who were of European descent, gave Americans the right to bear arms – a right that has led to deaths at Columbine, Jonesboro, Arkansas, death numerous work places, massacres at Luby’s, McDonald’s, a Jewish school in California, the assassination of Martin Luther King, J.F.K., Abraham Lincoln, the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, sniper shootings, subway vigilante justice, court house shootings etc.

Isn't it ironic that wherever some Europeans have landed they have caused problems too?

Europeans (subculture) created the tension in the Middle East. Palestinians (who are dark too) are treated like dogs in their own country and in other Arab countries.

Is it not ironic that blacks in America, Australia, and South Africa have some of the same profound social problems? Many of the problems can be attributed to the brutal racial and histories and systems in each country whether you choose to believe it or not.

High homicide rates, high incarceration rates, high unemployment, suspicious deaths by police, etc. plague blacks in all three countries (although Australia is also a continent). Three of the most notoriously racist countries in the world all had systems to discriminate against blacks - Jim Crow in America, and Apartheid systems in Australia and South Africa. The systems were designed to destroy people, but blacks are strong-willed people who aren't easy to extinguish.

But they are sure trying in Africa. They won't allow medication to get to those who need it in Africa. Africans are dying in the thousands, because of some European (subculture) corporate greed.

Furthermore, Bush did not exhibit "a kindler gentler" governorship as he sped up the deaths of over 200 people on Texas's death row during his stints as governor. He does not know "kindler and gentler". Predominately European-run Texas has led the world in legal executions despite pleas from the Pope to end the practice since Bush was governor.

Maybe you have forgotten, Leonardo da Vinci E. or perhaps you are so consumed with your inherent white supremacy that you are blinded to the fact that some people in your CULTURE (subculture) are not shining examples of humanity, many of them are thugs.

I hope that changes for the better. Until then, I cannot support that CULTURE (subculture).

HIRAM LEWIS
May 29 2004, 5:42AM

Bill is most definately right. For all of you jumping on him look at the facts. We kill each other. Our streets are a war zone. I live in Chicago, but that really doesn't matter. A way of life exist that is not positive for the future of our race. Drugs use is everywhere, but most prevalent in our hoods. Think about it folks, have you heard the terms baby mama and baby daddy that is used affectionately by our race. Why is aids high in our community? We want to prove our man hood by the many babies we have. We don't see the big picture. With all the extra babies, we have problems getting jobs. Then we sell drugs to survive which will lead to violence as well as a sub culture race with little education drug abusers. Imagine a world in which we thought clearer without the influence of a lot of negative influences. We can not get rid of all our problems because we are not perfect. The world is a cruel place, but we individually can make a difference by making sure our young is looked after so in the future, they will be in position financially to help the older people.

HouLou
May 29 2004, 5:18PM

Hiram Lewis, white people kill one another, and rob and steal as well. And I don't know where you live, but neither my street nor my neighborhood is a "war zone" and I live in a largely black neighborhood.

My neighbors are fine. Black fathers all around me are home with their children i.e. I live around hard working black families. I hear no "baby mama drama". In fact, the problems that we have had in our community have come from mostly non-blacks.

Yes, unfortunately, HIV/AIDS is on the rise in segments of our community. I attribute the rise to a lack of education and flat out irresponsible or apathetic behavior. If people have low self-esteem then they are going to take more risks with their lives.

Needless to say, but I will. HIV/AIDS is also increasing again in the overall gay community because of the barebacking craze. HIV/AIDS is also increasing in the Hispanic and white communities.

A lot of it is due irresponsible behavior.

Also, I personally don't know any black man who goes around proving their manhood by the number of children they have, and I know LOTS, of who I believe, are solidly straight black men.

Also, most guys sell drugs because they don't want to make an honest living - not out of the need to survive. Selling drugs to buy a Cadillac or Lexus isn't what I would determine a "need to survive". It's showboating i.e. the priorities are wrong.

Before getting my college education I worked for fast food restaurants, janitorial services, hotels, grocery stores, etc. etc.

If immigrant Latinos can come here and work in fruit orchards, meat packing plants, and lawn care services, then low-skilled or unskilled brothas can too.

Some have problems getting jobs because they don't want to work hard. It's easy to sell drugs on a corner versus plucking fruit from a tree or cleaning toilets.

Let's keep it real.

Regardless, a recent report in the Chicago Tribune cited that in Illinois 71% of drug users in the state are white, 14% are black, 7% are Hispanic, and 8% other.

While this is nothing to boast, brothas selling drugs on the southside of Chicago aren't just selling to black people. They aren't making $300,000 a day, as the Chicago Sun Times and Feds recently reported that the Black Disciples gang made, from the black community alone.

What does that tell you? White people are strung out like hell on LSD, crack, and other illegal substances. Methamphetamines are big in Illinois-especially poorer southern Illinois and neighboring Missouri.

Go to missourimeth.org

Take a look at the photos of meth labs, seizures, etc. The difference is that white people try to keep their usage on the "down low", whereas "hood rats" go around shooting, prostituting, stealing etc. openly. None of this is an excuse, because it is all ignorance and unfortunate for all who abuse drugs.

Although personal responsibility comes in play, nevertheless, racism and discrimination still exist.

Arrests and prosecution is focused in minority communities. There is a disparity in arrests, prosecutions, and sentencing by the criminal justice system.

And while people need to be accountable for their own behavior, "the system" targets minorities more. It's easy to be lenient on your own, especially when you control the system.

Another example of discrimination was released yesterday by Missouri's Attorney General. The newly released statistics that showed that:

"African-American motorists were 40 percent more likely to be stopped by police in Missouri last year than whites, and black and Hispanic drivers were twice as likely to be searched by authorities as whites after a stop, a statewide report says."

and

"Both the 2003 and 2002 reports show that the rate of contraband found in searches of drivers was higher for whites (23.2 percent) than either blacks (17.3 percent) or Hispanics (14.6 percent). Still, blacks were 77 percent more likely to be arrested than whites."

Article: "Blacks are stopped more than whites"

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/St.+Louis+City+/+County/CCE721712DB3DAD586256EA20016F01B?OpenDocument&Headline=Blacks+are+stopped+more+than+whites&tetl=1

Overall, I agree that we need to do a better job at guiding and assisting those who are less fortunate.

jaymillionaire
May 29 2004, 6:27PM

Bill Cosby was totally off base when he blasted working-class Black America for neglecting to instill morals and values in our children.

Where could he got that from?

Anyways, I'm off to go see SOULPLANE!

JP
May 29 2004, 6:47PM

COMMON GROUND: This is perhaps the healthiest conversation I've yet read at this BLOG.

As usual we find the some of the same demagogs and autocrats mounting their soap boxes to scream victimization; but I must say I find myself agreeing with many of the people I usually disagree with here (they know who they are). Ironically, even some of the people who so vehemently disagree with each other actually do agree on the salient points Cosby has made. Curiously only one writer has mentioned Tavis Smiley's interview with Bill Cosby where Cosby admitted his errors and in which Cornell West came to his defense. Tavis often provides full transcripts of his interviews and I have written him to beg that he post that interview at this web site. I urge you all to do the same!

It's a touchy subject that took great courage to confront – Cosby bravely stuck his neck out and was not about to spew the pabulum of blaming the white man for the failures of his own brothers and sisters.

Let me give you a bit of background here: Bill Cosby has long been the pariah of men we all regard as heroes. Sidney Poitier (a man I deeply admire) in his most recent memoir, "The Measure of a Man" notes that he and Harry Belefonte (and most of their group) despise Cosby and essentially work to blackball him. If they cross paths at a premier, award celebration, or party, they may act as gentleman and cast over a nod to acknowledge his presence but they will not talk to him, not walk over and shake his hand, not greet him with a kind word, or have anything to do with him. Why? Because in boycotting apartheid virtually all black entertainers agreed to refuse to perform in South Africa or permit their television shows or movies to play or be distributed in that country. It was a universal black entertainers' boycott. But Cosby did not tow the line. He permitted "The Cosby Show" to be telecast for years in South Africa under apartheid. Both Belefonte and Poitier railed him for it (and still despise him) as did other African-America entertainers and leaders (the N.A.A.C.P.) because Cosby made millions off of it. This is was not mere criticism, this was censorship. I personally think that Cosby made a huge contribution by breaking from the others for the Cosby Show probably went a long way to show South Africans just how decent and ordinary black families can be when given the chance. That's just my opinion but it demonstrates the courage and independent thinking of a man Cosby. Bill Cosby! I salute you!!!

On Tavis' show Cosby openly admitted he made some mistakes in his choice of language, i.e. he was not talking about all but merely some (and far too many) lower income blacks. Many, like H.L. Gates and Cornell West also argue that middle and upper class blacks are also not carrying their burden to assist their less fortunate lower income brothers and sisters but have left them behind. But when someone says, 'Stop blaming others so much and start taking more responsibility for yourself and your children' the reaction is ugly. 'Me take responsibility!? Me?! I'm not responsible! I am a victim.'

Arthur Ashe Sr., but it a more diplomatic way. His secret for success was, "Start from where you are. Work with what you have. And do the best you can." Cosby took it a bit further and essentially said, 'too many of you are not working with what you have and not doing the best you can. Stop asking for a hand-out and give a leg-up'.

Look, it's not about class per se. Yes there have long been strong class divisions amongst blacks (house Negroes and field Negroes) and anyone who has read the story of Dr. King's life knows how strong those class prejudices were even in his own family and in the Atlanta milieu he was raised in. (See in general "Parting the Waters," by Taylor Branch.) Nor is it about money or even formal education. Look at these comments and testimonials from this BLOG and think:

POSTED BY: REGAN DUCASSE ON MAY 25: "My grandmother and grandfather survived the Great Depression and Jim Crow. They emerged from this experience a lady and a gentleman. You could eat from my grandmother's floors. My father survived a poverty stricken childhood where he didn't even get glasses until he served in the segregated army during World War 2. Young people these days got no self respect, self restraint or self motivation."

And note this one, POSTED BY: CMONEY ON MAY 28, 2004: "My grandfather never went to college and spent most of his life working in labor and construction. I don't blame him for not having a M.D. because in North Carolina in the 1920's African-American men were strongly discouraged from getting a college education . BUT, he raised 11 kids who all went to college and were never caught up in crime. He took care of his family. He taught them morals. His story was not unusual."

Want a lesson in human dignity? Want a lesson individual responsibility? Want a lesson in the indestructibility of the human spirit? Want a lesson in character and the refusal to become a mere victim? Well look no further. These commentators speak volumes!!!

Now I'm not talking about the grandchildren but the "uneducated" grandparents who, despite their lack of education were actually quite beautifully educated in the more human and spiritual sense. This takes me back to the infamous Moynihan Report in which Daniel P. Moynihan spoke out about the state of the African-American family. His thesis was that the black family structure was torn asunder by the abandonment of Reconstruction and the establishment of Jim Crow. But he only knew black family culture from a sociologists count-the-numbers perspective (which certainly has some validity) but, though I admire him and his report, he didn't know black family culture from a hole in the ground. African-American intellectuals assailed him for it. (See "The Omni-Americans," by Albert Murray and see "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Black Man," by. H.L. Gates.) Their point was a simple one: despite horrid and unassailable facts the African-American family is as solid as rock -- in trouble no doubt but still rather solid. Moynihan missed what others in the black community saw clearly.

We have all, every one of us, seen black families (and white and Hispanic too) that are uneducated, that live in deplorable conditions, crime and violence is everywhere. But in spite of all this most, the lion's share, do not succumb to drugs, death, and spiritual destitution. Most in fact are entirely decent people -- but we don't see them for they are too busy taking care of themselves and doing quite well despite the seemingly insurmountable odds and the only time we see them is when there is another gang killing of an innocent child caught in the cross-fire so they step out to take their neighborhoods back. And there are millions upon millions of them in America. Otherwise they are in the background working diligently to keep body, soul, and family together. But they are not the people Cosby was talking about.

Cosby was talking about the numbers who are ground up beneath the wheel and their numbers are horrific and unacceptable. Cosby's only mistake was to not acknowledge and salute the millions who strive so heroically against the odds. But focusing on that error begs the question of the truth he is talking about – that too many are not doing their share and not taking individual responsibility and it's time we all put some pressure on them to '"Start from where they are. WORK with what you have. And DO the BEST they you can."

But this was a college commencement address and education was the context and education and the opportunities it brings are paths out of hopelessness. But college is not for everyone and, let's face it, the world needs less unemployed college graduates and more people who can fix a leaky faucet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a mechanic, a carpenter, and nothing dishonorable in making any honest living. To suggest otherwise is the ultimate classicism and snobbery. Every mind deserves an opportunity to develop to it's fullest but I'd never cast aspersions on a man or woman who does simple honest hard work -- quite the contrary for I salute and respect them. The young men and women who come collect my garbage and drive my city busses, risk their lives to police my streets, are every bit as decent and as honorable (and often far more so) than some of the people I know who have advanced degrees and keep getting more and more not as way to contribute to the world but as devices to stay out of work.

African-Americans do not really need white liberals to make the world better place for blacks for the African-American community is entirely capable of resolving its own dilemmas but it begins with personal responsibility. The grandparents of CMONEY and REGAN DUCASSE knew the truth long before Cosby ever told it to us. Gandhi said it very eloquently, "We must BE the change we wish to see." The best way to stop being a victim is simply to refuse to capitulate to it. "Start from where you are. Work with what you have. And do the best you can." Get off it and get on with it.

JP
May 29 2004, 6:58PM

Good news! Tavis Smiley has published at his web site the two interviews of Bill Cosby that I mentioned previously! Thanks Tavis! These will answer many of the questions the commentators have raised here. Here are the links. Enjoy.

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200405/20040526_transcript.html#1

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200405/20040526_transcript.html#2

JP
May 29 2004, 6:59PM

Good news! Tavis Smiley has published at his web site the two interviews of Bill Cosby that I mentioned previously! Thanks Tavis! These will answer many of the questions the commentators have raised here. Here are the links. Enjoy.

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200405/20040526_transcript.html#1

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200405/20040526_transcript.html#2

JP
May 30 2004, 6:09PM

"Content without context is pretext." Jessie Jackson

People should keep in mind that Cosby's commencement speech was nothing new. "You are all late," he quipped. Indeed, Cosby has made all those statements before, many times over the years, in speeches on campuses and before African-American audiences, but they have never been made controversial. Those who want to understand why and how that happened should review the Tavis Smiley interviews at the link noted above and get if from Cosby's own mouth.

cmoney
May 30 2004, 10:05PM

JP, I knew we would agree on something one day!

Laura
May 30 2004, 11:57PM

JP, thanks for the links. Of interest from the 1st transcript, looks like the speech was part schtick, part lecture.

"Cosby: You all are late. I said this at Howard University 6 years ago. I've said it in the company of audiences--African American audiences.

Tavis: So why'd it get picked up now? Was it the event?

Cosby: It was the white man who got the word from somebody who was there, who called the white man, who put it in the white paper, which is called the Washington Post. And from that, they left out Mr. Cosby saying 50%. They left out the part about fathering, and they certainly left out “We've got to take back the neighborhood and the responsibility--take it back.” Then they added something that I think was incorrect, that the people came out stone-faced, stunned. I don't think they were. And I heard the audience a couple of times saying, “yes,” people applauding."

I'm still trying to find a transcript of the whole speech, strangely, it seems not to be found.

Allison
May 31 2004, 10:53AM

Thank you Bill Cosby for saying what has needed to be said fo a long time now. Yes, racism does exist. Yes, it is unfortunate and unfair. No, we can no blame racism for all of our social ills. We can blame our own ignorance as a race of people. I am an African-American woman who works in a "failing" Boston Public School with the majority of students being African-American. Education is sadly a priority for a minor number of students. We have a numberof students who should be in their second year of high school but are still in the 8th grade. Attendance is a major problem. Their parents make excuses for them. They are given the responsibility of caring for their younger siblings. They come to school late or not at all. There are students who are failing everyday but do not come to school because their hair is not done. Let us not blame society for making us so conceited that we sacrifice our education because of our hair not being done. We are dealing with parents who do not think it is a problem when their child curses out a teacher. They come in and cusre out the teacher too. They never show up for a meeting but are there on the last day of school yelling why didn't I know. It is impossibile to contact them because the phone numbers constantly change but their children have a new pair of sneakers literally every week, no exageration. Parents are no longer acting as parents. They are so youngthatthey think of their child as their best friend. They dress alike, talk alike, and share everything with their children, no matter how inappropriate. Yes, it is frustrating. As I said earlier the truth does hurt. If someone does not talk about it I fear what the future holds. Is everone forgetting that these children are our future? Look around. Are you confident that these are the children (soon to be adults) that you want making major decisions and controlling things? I can say for sure that my answer is NO. There must be a change and that change must start at home. We have not moved so far away from our ancestors. It still TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD.

Kabanga
May 31 2004, 6:24PM

The little dirty secret of white America is out. And it's not that there is poverty in the getto. It's that Bill Cosby is now, and has always been a foot shuffling, grimacing, "unthreatening" Uncle Tom.

He has internalized racism to such an extent, that he believes that if only there were none of those nasty, criminal "ghetto" (or is that "field") Negroes out there, whitey would love us.

Well guess what? If Black people had an equal shot at a quality education, and all that goes with that like loans, choice of housing, etc., there would be no ghettoes. Or at least they wouldn't be filled with Black people.

All the ills of the ghetto, are ills that are mere symptoms of poverty. But because America, the only westernized country to have known slavery as an institution during it's history, is so hung up about race, that they can not talk or do something about class.

Black people did not create ghettoes. In fact, the word ghetto comes from Italian, to describe neighborhoods inhabited by Jews, back in the renaissance. There are ghettoes with Hispanic people called Barrios, but somehow Bill Crosby doesn't notice those. Nor does he extend his comments to the Hispanic community.

Many years ago, Bill Cosby took it upon himself to mess with Eddy Murphy's comedy routine. Murphy called up Richard Pryor, and I will end this post with Pryor's immortal words: "Tell Cosby to have a coke and a smile and SHUT THE F*** UP!!".

Kabanga

JP
May 31 2004, 7:36PM

"The revolution will be BLOGed." Andrew Sullivan

Laura et. al.:

What part of the "free speech" doesn't Howard University get?

Actually I was mistaken. The Cosby speech was not a commencement but to mark an event in Washington celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision (On Monday, May 17, 2004, Constitution Hall, Washington, DC). But it was sponsored by Howard University and hosted by Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee.

I first learned of it via the NYT and shot the article to Keith immediately. The NYT did a much better job of reporting than the Washington Post. See the NYT article "Cosby Defends His Remarks About Poor Blacks' Values By FELICIA R. LEE. Published: May 22, 2004. The link is http://query.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?tntget=2004/05/22/arts/22COSB.html& tntemail1

But hurry up for they do not remain free at the NYT for very long. If you missed it and want it I can e-mail a text version if your address here is correct.

But Howard, it seems, owns the copyright and has refused to publish the transcript so you will not find it! Perhaps we should all write to Howard University to demand full disclosure. Please shoot me back (or post) the names and e-mail address of any responsible parties at Howard U.

See this: "Never mind Howard University. The administration of the Washington, D.C., institution is apparently in a bit of a huff because Bill Cosby used its podium to criticize the failings of black America -- especially its underclass. Howard's leaders, who won't release a transcript of Cosby's speech, are still not prepared to have a public discussion of self-inflicted wounds. (See BILL COSBY'S POINTED REMARKS MAY SPARK MUCH-NEEDED DEBATE, By Cynthia Tucker (Thu May 27, 8:02 PM ET) at http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1317&e=4&u=/ucas/billcosbyspointedremarksmaysparkmuchneededdebate

Laura
May 31 2004, 8:47PM

JP - Yeah that makes sense. I was thinking it might be some kind of intellectual property issue. Something's seems strange there and I wonder if it may have to do with some kind of rights thing with Cosby's work? Don't know, just guessing, but this is just odd - I think the responsible parties really need to release what he actually said, since it's gone this far. The info we have is just not sufficient. I'd be up for writing them.

JP
June 1 2004, 3:58AM

Cosby: It was the white man who got the word from somebody who was there ...

Laura, you went right to it but may have missed something. Search this BLOG discussion for the word "white" and you will see something very interesting, something Cosby put his finger squarely on, something the commentators here show they know.

"That's the dirtly little secret of black America. We talk about personal responsibility all the time when we're by ourselves. We talk about it at the NAACP conventions, in our churches, in our communities. We joke about it in comedy shows and in our self depictions in movies and television. (Anybody seen "Soul Plane" yet?) And we complain about it in our communities, where we're tired of gang violence, drug abuse and poor customer service. We talk about it everywhere, except in front of white people. We are understandably afraid of airing our dirty laundry.... So Bill Cosby was right... " Keith Boykin

'Yeah, white folks are not in our corner, but so what. ... these parents need to be parents." Posted by: BD at May 24, 2004 04:18 PM

"As for dirty laundry...when will we stop caring what white people think? Who gives a shit!? ... If black men could arrest their culture of SEXISM long enough to stop harping on the percentages of what "black MALES" are doing/facing....and start to give a damn about the little black girls that give birth to black males....then we might begin to get somewhere. ...We should start caring about that and reach out to them, attempt to empower them with self esteem--because when we reach out to them, we reach out to ourselves." Posted by: Kola Boof at May 24, 2004 04:54 PM

"... it's an unspoken rule that everything is due to racism... we are a society of people who like to complain and blame. It's always somebody's fault..." Posted by: aquafemme2003 at May 24, 2004 01:53 PM

"Bill Cosby said it right! We blacks have to start thinking outside the box. The racism card have been milked dry ... I do hear some blacks in my college cry that the science professor gave them a C because they are not white. These same kids don't study or even come to class regularly and they except to pass?? but their cell phone is with them always. We blacks should learn something from the Jews-they have been prosecuted for hundreds of centuries even before black slavery yet whenever they are given opportunity to rise up they embrace quickly." Posted by: Mee at May 24, 2004 07:03 PM Posted by: Mee at May 24, 2004 07:03 PM

Cosby was RIGHT ON the money! His statements require no interpretation. We know he was talking about ... The 'system' didn't ... REFUSE them an education. It's not 'the system' ... but black folks feeding their own into it. ... The racism experienced these days is literally anecdotal, NOT institutional. If you suspect it at all, there is redress in the law. A well dressed, clean cut, well spoken brother CAN go anywhere he wants, rather than a foul mouthed, ghetto fabulous on. That's the RULES for ANYONE who expects success. Even a white guy with tattoos and a foul mouth and greasy clothes won't go far either. ..." Posted by: Regan DuCasse at May 25, 2004 09:30 AM

Here's a great one! "The main thing we blacks need to stop doing is accusing someone of "acting white" due to displaying stellar speaking skills and good manners. When other blacks accuse me of acting white, I tell them that I act "green" because that's what I want in my pockets! I don't care if you're black, white, Asian, native American, straight, gay, etc. Good manners and an excellent vocabulary cuts across all races, ages and social classes. Posted by: JLee at May 25, 2004 11:29 AM Well said! W.E.B. Dubois could not have said it better! [When someone once said to Dubois, "It must be a great privilege to be the first Negro to get a doctorate from Harvard," Dubois quipped, "I assure you sir, the privilege was all Harvard's." ]

"...Cosby pointed his aim directly at the problems that people create for themselves (bad manners, no initiative, criminal behavior, violence, drug use, premature pregnancy, broken marriages, bad parenting, etc.) and blame others for. Of course, nothing is black and white. Poor people can have excellent morals and values and prosper ... and rich people can be trash... Posted by: cmoney at May 25, 2004 12:36 PM

"I totally, whole heartedly agree with what Mr. Cosby said. We really do need to start taking responsibility for our own actions. Some of us are so quick to say "Well, the White man won't let us get anything or have anything". I got news for you (& do pardon my ebonics here): AIN'T NOBODY GON "LET" YOU GET ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD!!! If you want it, you go for yours. Side swipe & elbow your way to the front if you have to. If you don't you have no one to blame but yourself.... I could go on but I won't. I'll just say BIG UP to Mr. Cosby for having the balls to tell it like it is. It's tight, but it's right." Posted by: jazdin at May 25, 2004 09:32 PM Superb!

The comments go on and on and on but, indeed, why go on? I pull these quotes out of context a bit for many of the writers disagree in many ways; but they all share common ground and they all know what Cosby has been saying for a long time and in that Tavis Smiley interview Cosby also said,

"I see those people who did Brown vs. the Board of Education in the room to make whatever it was--separate but equal or to equal, or to show the children--Ken Clark and his wife with the dolls to show that children felt inferior, too. I'm looking at Nashville and the march where people are trying to sit at a counter, and we say, OK, all of that was done for…this! And then here it is--50% dropout. You can't just blame white people for this, man. You can't. Whether I'm right-wing or left, some people are not parenting."

Now isn't it interesting. Cosby has made this speech before and previously said all these things before black audiences with not a bubble of protest. If you want to get national attention, if people are not listening, delete a fact (the fact deleted from the speech was 50% thus implying "all") publish it in a "white" paper and you fire a shot heard across the land. I have said before that blacks don't need white liberals to solve blacks' problems but what's that line from Colson's final son in "Ragtime"? "Go out and tell the story let it echo far and wide ... and tell them in our struggle we were not the only one's." Too bad it had to take a white man to feed the story to a white paper that omitted a few salient facts (Deliberately to create controversy and get the word out perhaps? Could there have been some collusion here? If so what a coup!) After he has said it politely so many times how then does he get the word heard? Answer: Any way he can.

Bill Cosby, I think, put it squarely on us all. Both H.L. Gates and Cornell West remind us that middle and upper income blacks have a duty and responsibility to not leave the mass of the rest behind. Cosby was talking not about college drop-outs but grades 9 through 12 and notes that 60 - 90 percent of all blacks in prison are illiterate! This is unacceptable!

Keith Boykin thank you!! This is the healthiest discussion on race relations I've witnessed in a long, long, time. Bill Cosby is not telling most of us anything we didn't already know. That alone should hearten him and I urge him to visit this BLOG. Keith, please write to him and invite him in. It's clearly not us he was talking about but it is us he is talking to. Our dilemma is how do we deliver the word to those who do not hear and who do not want to hear?

JP
June 1 2004, 4:30AM

"The Revolution will be BLOGGED." Andrew Sullivan

Laura:

Well I think we probably know all we need to know but like you I want the full speech -- warts and all. Since you are the one with the IT savvy why don't you research who the responsible parties are at Howard U., and the N.A.A.C.P., along with the hosts Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, and then publish their e-mail or snail-mail addresses here so we can RESPECTFULLY request full disclosure at the same time we invite them into this BLOG to see what I presume they all already know – that Cosby will not be made into a pariah by those who wish to eschew culpability for their own lives. I'm not talking about blaming low income blacks I'm just talking about responsibility – which is distinctly different from all the blame, shame, and guilt crap (i.e. "You spilt the milk. You are not bad and wrong but you are responsible. Now you get to clean it up.)

Cosby nailed some feet to the floor. People (all of us let's face it) don't like to be held responsible. Being a victim is an escape from responsibility but it's also a trap. Cosby really stuck his neck out big time but I suspect he knew exactly what he was doing -- this guy is ten thousand miles from stupid. I don't think this was an accident that just happened to wind up in the Washington Post to then be clarified by the NYT. This was very clever and I suspect very well thought out. Cosby may well have played the media, Howard U., and the N.A.A.C.P. like puppets on a string. He may have had a white friend at the Post collude to cast bait -- if so then the bait was taken hook, line, and sinker! If that's so (we'll never know) then it was absolutely brilliant! Is so he's probably laughing his _ss of. But I would like to see the entire speech.

Laura
June 1 2004, 8:12PM

JP - the reason I chose to quote what he said about the WaPo coverage had less to do with the white thing than the fact that they left out, according to Cos, half of what he said.

Good suggestion re: Howard, NAACP, where I first went poking around for info - have been putting a similar list together. Happily, I've got a lot of work this week, so it may not be right away. But will post what I find.

Fuck Cosby
June 2 2004, 12:02AM

Mr. Cosby's son, Ennis, was killed by poor white trash. He talked more about "poor blacks" than he did about the murderer of his son.

His cartoon, Fat Albert, had babbling, stuttering clowns on it. How much did that cartoon raise the speech level of children who watched it?

donald
June 2 2004, 9:03AM

For me, an important question is, Has Bill Cosby given any money to efforts aimed at elavating the plight of disadvantage African Americans? Why has he not used his influence, money, power, and connections to specifically address what he sees as a problem in Black America. I know that he has given millions to institutions such as Morehouse and Spelman- who will benefit from his donations? Certainly not the people he's referring too. It seems to me that his lamblasting of poor blacks would have more creditability if he actually did something towards resolving this social problem, but too my knowledge he has not. What good is it to talk about the problem and not offer up any solutions?

Tired of the blame game
June 2 2004, 11:32AM

Donald,

How do you know he hasn't given any money to help disadvantaged African Americans? You're are making an assumption with no information to back it up and worse of all you're condemning the man based on that baseless assumption. He's not going to issue a press release everytime he gives money so just because it wasn't on the news doesn't mean that you can automatically assume that he hasn't done anything. In fact, I would assume the exact opposite. If he's willing to donate millions to black institutions (not just to universities but also to the NAACP, National Council of Negro Women, etc..), I would assume that he has probably given money to disadvantaged communities.

You then discount his efforts to help black colleges. Why? How do you know that doesn't help disadvantaged black students? Are you telling me that poor blacks don't go to HBSU's? Are you telling me that there aren't students at HBSU's who are the first in their families to go to college? I'm sorry but I completely disagree.

I'm so frustrated with black people's lack of respect for people like Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey, simply because they don't spend THEIR money the way some of us would like them to. Who says that spending money directly in poor areas would be more beneficial than giving money to colleges? What the basis for making such a claim? Is there any data to support the statement?

Furthermore, where's the outrage that most other black stars aren't giving their fair share back to the community (in any fashion). Why do we continue to dog those that do help our community but ignore those that don't? What about all the famous black men who only date white women (some of which were quick to trash Cosby)? Why do we love to hate Cosby and Winfrey for not being black enough but we'll give our props to athletes who don't spend a dime in our communities, who would rather blow their money away on bling, bling rather than help our community, and who only date white women? Hell, how many of us (rich or not) don't give anything to help but we'll quickly trash someone who is helping? We'll spend billions on the latest fashion, cars, and gadgets but we won't set up or contribute to a national fund to help our own communities (similar to the Jews). So maybe we need to be looking in the mirror to find out who's truly not pulling their weight rather than pointing fingers.

Kenny
June 2 2004, 2:53PM

I am in total agreement with Bill Cosby. NAACP always want to sugercoat when people of color need to step up the plate and always throwing the race card when the adversary is a white person. I live in the inner city and young black men stand on the corner all day and all night and they cannot blame it on the white man. The white man did not tell them to stand on the corner all day. If a person never make an attempt to try to improve themselves, they have no one to blame but themselves. Blacks in general are materialistic. I have a sister who buys her toddler son expensive clothes that cost more than my clothes anhd she works at a gsa station making mininal wage. I encourage her open up a saving account not buy $40 shirts and pants for a two year old.
People need to take their education seriously, stop smoking the blunts, having sex with different partners, get a job and look for one that is better and stop being so materialistic. It's okay to want nice things, but people need to priortized. Invest in a house before you buy a Escalade if you are a renter. Lazy welfare non- working parents need to follow up with their children's education and leave the soap opera alone for a day,because the all my children are young and restless. Jesus is returning and we all need to get right.

Leonardo da Vinci E.
June 2 2004, 5:52PM

And when we are finished defending..or petitioning the plight,ways,and means of the community....what about our own subculture(a smaller culture within a greater culture)...what about GAY-CISM?...of no prime importance? Does not exist? Not deserving of anyone's "righteous angers?" Like a dog in a yard barking at everyone who passes by(they are the enemy).....when in reality they would have been kinder to him than his own master(community).That is the situation which exist.When in our own community you have minds so naive that they have yet to learn that their choice of religion is for them to have and that is what it means to have "freedom"...that it is their right to judge themselves by the rules of their religion when they violate their own rules,but it is a violation of others "RIGHTS" for them to pretend that someone who is not of their religious envisionment is to be judged by their choices.DOES IT MATTER THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE NOT FREE.....in the city in which I live,you have been told by the COMMUNITY (and I have heard this demonstrated before media in public)that you have no rights they are bound to respect........

Kabanga
June 5 2004, 4:15PM

what about GAY-CISM?...

What about the anti-Black racism inside the Gay community?

How about the total either absence or hostility to Black people in movies like Longtime Companion? Which was written by a Jewish homosexual who later died of AIDS?

How about this tendency to portray homosexuals as these preppie professionals and White, and Blacks as the "others"?

Laura
June 6 2004, 4:07AM

A sensible perspective on the Cosby flap at:

http://www.negrophile.com/, June 5 entry.

Tim'm
June 7 2004, 8:13PM

It's interesting that you don't hear white people espousing the good white people/bad white people dichotomy. Whites too speak colloquialisms and the vast majority of poor and uneducated in the U.S. are white people.

What's troubling about Dr. Cosby's statement is the illicit seduction of elitist, capitalist, standards of "normalcy". And far to often, our standards of achievement are marked by how hard we work or how closely we fulfill some American Dream that is a figment of the global white supremacist imagination. I grew up in the projects where "those people" live and survive. I've also known those brothas shot for stealing "pound cakes". (how crude and obnoxious)!

Do we seem like better black people when we can no longer acknowledge systemic injustices? Have we proven our ascendance? As one who many would argue has ascended the "hood" I make consistent efforts to remain connected to "those" people, not only to remind myself of the boats and fields and plantations and colored only sections from which we all came, but to strategize and create, not lazily scrutinize and complain, of ways to better uplift our peoples. An educator in public schools, I've had some great success with these so called "hopeless" $500 sneaker buyers. But the money given to UNCF, does not always trickle down to Hunter's Point, Ghosttown, or whatever other ghetto seems to harbor "those people" to ebonic linguistic patterns and mismanagement of government funds.

Blacks with education seem to find it far more easy to complain about what others are doing than be present in the kinds of ways that would bring about a radical shift in our community. We are currently experiencing one of the biggest class gaps in african-america to date-- a gap that best serves the white capitalist agenda if we good black folks marry good black folks and establish good black neighborhoods and families. What are the bourgie "good" black families hiding in those closets? Some of the very dysfunctions that whites guise with manicured lawns and surburban track homes. If the people in the hood aren't keeping it real, then neither are their black critics? At least that's how I see it.

Yes I do sometimes experience fear with the idea of going into certain hoods and trying to communicate with my (not those) brothas on the corner... and perhaps some of us need to re-learn how to do it... despite some of the clear risks involved. I've been held at gunpoint before, for those who are saying I'm naive. But that experience didn't lead me to overgeneralize an entire population.

This kind of productive and effective attempts at communication (something that oddly thorugh refreshingly seemed to exist among the diversly skilled and ebonically savvy Fat Albert Crew) is the only way change will come about. Maybe Bill Cosby has forgotten those guys; and how they collectively dealt with decision making. Generations of ignorance will spawn generations of ignorance. My first generation college siblings are mostly educators, but there are a few of us who didn't finish school, got caught up in the "game" and are now locked up. I think this keeps us humbly connected to the importance of nurturing black family (in its many, many forms) and the small decisions and opportunities that mark the difference between Ivy Towers and Steel Bars, nawmean? I ran the same streets as my brothers when more than just a single hopeful educated black person made difference in my direction. It's not a save-all for everyone, but are we earnestly trying?

my twenty-five sense,

Tim'm
www.reddirt.biz

Dehron Banks
June 7 2004, 11:59PM

When i first heard the statements i was a little shocked, but i think most of the shock came from hearing it from the source in which i did. You just wouldn't expect for him to say those kinds of things. But then i really stepped back and took a look at what was said and realized that most of the things that he said were true. And i see it in my neighborhood everyday. People are not taking care of their kids. I've sometimes come home from a night out and find that there are kid 10, 11, and 12 still outside at 12, 1, and 2 in the morning. And it's rediculous to be honest. But i dont think that he should have come down so hard on the poor because i know some kids that are well to do that are exactly the same way. I think we as a people need to start handeling our business in the parenting department, and stop rewarding kids for behavior that is not exceptable. And start setting and enforcing stricter guidelines. Only then will we start to see progression with our younger generations.

Reggie
June 8 2004, 5:41PM

I think Mr. Cosby hit it right on the nail. We shouldn't get offended by his comments. We always cry when the problems in our community are addressed and not sugar coated. We need to actually address the problems and stop blamming the condition of Black America on politicians and the government.

butterfly
June 9 2004, 3:19PM

No i think he was keeping it real and telling the truth. Some people can't handle the truth. He's black and he knows his backround why would he out down his own race. He's trying to open peoples eyes.

susan
June 12 2004, 10:07PM

Bill Cosby was speaking the truth. Noone should be offended by these truthful remarks.
Each and everyone of us has a personal responsibility to ourselves and to the rest of the world. Take responsibility for what you say and do. Stop blaming others for your problems. Get you life together and make your life heaven instead of hell. Stop using the color of your skin for your actions. And stop blaming past slavery for your shortcomings. There is no excuse in this Great Country of ours for anyone not to get an education. Bill Cosby was so right and thank God he finally spoke up and said what people have been needing to hear for many years.

Leo
June 13 2004, 12:39AM

You Go Bill!!
I have seen it, heard it, and as a african american, disgusted by it. I get tired of going to a nightclub, or a party, and have the experience ruin because some brother or sister wanna fight over a spilled drink, or some brother picking up on another brother hoochie momma, i get tired of my house getting broken in so that i can support some hoodlum so that he can wear those 500.00 tennis shoes that he only is going to wear 2-3 months top. As a african american, sometimes i feel so damn stupid because i cant even understand what the hell is spoken to me, its like im in a different country or another planet or something.

jasper
June 13 2004, 10:13PM

It's about tim Mr Cosby made sense. Think about it.

Tracy
June 16 2004, 4:34PM

Well, I've read these remarks here with great interest; some I have agreed with, others not so.
I am a 39 year old African-American woman, the parent of a 16 year old male. I read your comments with mixed feelings because my son is one of the people that Bill Cosby was referencing. At the age of 16 he has no focus, little interest in education and is disrespectful. How it came to this I don't truly know because he is an only child with two educated parents. His father, my ex-husband, graduated from an HBCU and is the recipient of not one but two Master's degrees, yet none of this seems to matter. While we speak proper english around our son, he speaks in nothing but colloquialism's and slang. He is glued to the TV watching videos on BET until recently when I had our cable cut off because of this. I don't think that I agree with HOW it was said, but I agree with WHAT was being said. Yes, let's address those parents who don't do their part, but what about those of us that do? I talk with his teachers weekly, attend every parent-teacher conference and have even paid for private tutoring all to no avail. I'm doing my best to ensure that this is not the angry young black man that five years from now, is brandishing a gun in your face demanding that you surrender your valuables.

shenna
June 21 2004, 12:25PM

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK ITS TIME THAT WE EDUCATE OUR BLACK PEOPLE, AND QUIT CRITICIZING AND ATTACKING THEM WHICH IS WHAT SO MANY OTHER BLACKS WHO HAVE "MADE IT", DO. I UNDERSTAND THAT MR COSBY IS A MAJOR PHILANTHROPIST OR WHATEVER, BUT HE TOO IS MISJUDGING. HIS STATEMENTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN WISER. ALL LOWER ECONOMIC PEOPLE ARE NOT IGNORANT AND UNEDUCATED, JUST FINANCIALLY DISADVANTAGED. TRUE, WE DO HAVE SOME ISSUES WITH MONEY MANAGEMENT AND GOING AFTER THE "BLING BLING" OF LIFE. YET, THERE IS NO REASON TO ATTACK BLACK PEOPLE, BECAUSE BELIEVE IT OR NOT, RECEIVE IT OR NOT, OUR BLACK YOUTH HAVE BEEN ATTACKED IN MORE WAYS THAN THIS ONE!!! TO SAY THAT ALL LOWER ECONOMIC BLACKS ARE NOT LIVING UP TO THEIR END OF THE DEAL IS WRONG AND ERRONEOUS. I GREW UP IN A LOWER ECONOMIC HOME AND MY FATHER (BLACK MAN) BECAUSE MY MOTHER IS DEAD, STRESSED THE IMPORTANCE OF EDUCATION AND EVERYONE OF HIS CHILDREN ARE IN COLLEGE. AS FAR AS THE SLANG ISSUES GOES, LET ME NOTE THIS ONE THING; IF YOU GROW UP IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE TALK A CERTAIN WAY, YOU ARE GOING TO ADAPT TO THAT WAY. I AM AN ASPIRING JOURNALIST AND I USE SLANG, BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, I AM ONE OF THE MOST PROFICIENT AND WELL VERSED STUDENTS IN MY DEPARTMENT. WHOSE TO SAY THAT SLANG IS TOTALLY WRONG? WE NEED TO TEACH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WHEN TO USE AND NOT USE THIS LANGUAGE. I DONT THINK THAT MR. COSBY USES PERFECT ENGLISH WHEN AT HOME WITH HIS WIFE, OR EVEN HANGING OUT WITH HIS FRIENDS. WHITE PEOPLE HAVE A "SLANG" THAT THEY USE! SOME OF MY CLOSEST FRIENDS ARE WHITE AND RICH, AND THEY DO NOT USE THE BEST OF ENGLISH, ALL OF THE TIME. WE NEED TO TEACH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WHEN TO USE THIS LANGUAGE AND WHEN NOT TO USE IT. THEY NEED TO KNOW WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE AND WHEN IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE. I WORK WITH YOUNG BLACK PEOPLE EVERY DAY AND WHEN THEY LEARN BETTER, THEY DO BETTER, BUT THEY HAVE TO LEARN. I AM YOUNG ALSO. I AM A 20 YEAR OLD, BLACK FEMALE, WHO PRAYS FOR OUR YOUTH ON A CONTINUAL BASIS. ATTACKING THEM ONLY MAKES THINGS WORSE. LETS SHOW THEM THE RIGHT WAY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT KNOW. THEY ADAPT TO WHAT THEY SEE. IT BECOMES THEIR WORLD, THEIR LIFE, AND THE WAY THAT THEY SURVIVE. WE ARE NO BETTER THAN THE RACIST PEOPLE IF WE JUDGE AND PRESENT OUR PREJUDICED VIEWS FOR THE WORLD TO SEE. IF THEY DONT USE THE PROPER ENGLISH. HELP THEM!! PRAY FOR THEM! TAKE THEM IN. LETS TAKE SOME TIME AND EDUCATE BLACKS ON HOW TO EAT HEALTHY AND RIGHT, HOW TO SPEND THEIR MONEY, AND HOW TO RAISE THEIR KIDS. WHITE PEOPLE DO. THEY HAVE CLASSES AND EVERYTHING ELSE FOR THESE VERY ISSUES. WE ARE SO QUICK TO LOW-RATE AND DEGRADE EACH OTHER, IT IS RIDICULOUS. WE DO NOTHING BUT SIT AROUND AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LOWER ECONOMIC PEOPLE WHO REALLY JUST NEED SOME HELP, ENCOURAGEMENT, AND SUPPORT FROM THOSE WHO HAVE MADE IT. IF WE ARE GOING TO TALK, WE NEED TO PRESENT A POSITIVE IMAGE OURSELVES. MOST OF THE PEOPLE ATTACKING, HAVE ISSUES THAT THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH. GOD HELP US. MR. COSBY WAS NOT TOTALLY WRONG. GOD KNOWS WE NEED TO GET EDUCATED, BUT THE EDUCATED NEED TO DO SO ALSO. THEY SEEM TO BE MORE IGNORANT THAN THE ONES WHO DONT HAVE DEGREES.

I LOVE BILL COSBY
July 1 2004, 11:24PM

It is sad but oh so true. Our race of people have lost their minds. What happened? What will become of this generation? What happen to raising your children? These poor children are not even children anymore. We are going backwards and no one seems to care! We need a hero. The white man can no longer be blamed for the fall of the black communities. We must begin to take control of our own backyards and maybe put a fence up to avoid unleashing the stray dogs!! Our young females walking around with all of their bottoms out, our young men who knows not what it means to own a decent pair of shoes,let alone a pair of dress pants. Crackhead parents, grandparents trying to raise their grandchildren, I could go on, but, I feel the need to just scream out aloud. Say it loud, I'm black but not proud of what my people have become. EDUCATION IS NEEDED ALONG WITH SOME HOME TRAINING OF HOW TO BE A HUMAN!

GOD KNOW ALL
July 1 2004, 11:40PM

GOD IS THE ANSWER! THIS BATTLE IS NOTHING THAT MAN CAN SOLVE BY MARCHING, COMPLAINING NOR WORRYING. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF IT ALL. AND PLEASE BELIEVE ME IT WILL GET WORSE BEFORE ITS OVER. READ ANY HOLY BOOK ITS IN THERE!

Patterson
July 2 2004, 12:42PM

I read many(mainly directed to--bklynd) comments concerning black people...and I must say, I do agree with many of the things that were stated however, it is not what you say, but how you say it. I am not at all saying excuse or sugar coat the things that go on in today's society, but I am saying...you are so busy trying to bash people, especially ours, but what are you doing to help. Are you leading by example and reaching out to those who need help? Are you saying what can I do to help you improve your way of living, lifestyle, etc. Are you at least ministering to one person? Because the fact of the matter is...I am a black woman, who works out daily to remain healthy and your comment, "Black women have higher rates of obesity and obesity related illnesses, yet we persist in thinking we're just BBW (big, beautiful women) and won't make any attempt to lose just a little weight to improve our health. And can someone please tell these sisters that available in your size does NOT mean suitable for your size -- I say that as a woman who lost more than 70 pounds without major dieting or surgery." (There is a testimony right there that someone may need to hear, but you are too busy sitting on it!) I eat healthy and I wear what is appropriate for my size, and I did not have to diet. It is a lifestyle change and No I did not have to have surgery either. I am not denying the fact that black women are suffering from obesity...but God also said that we are wonderfully made. Beauty comes from within and you must learn to love yourself and remember that there is always room for improvement. So there is nothing wrong with a woman stating that she is big and beautiful. I am not going as far as to say that I am overweight...but I have been overweight and it is a very challenging thing to overcome. It takes persistence, motivation, as well as dedication. There were days I didn't feel like going to the gym and I didn't go and there were days that I did...and through time it became a MUST (almost a chore). Everyone may not be as motivated as you...so what are you doing to help them improve? Education: I also graduated from a very well respected university with a degree...(so Yes I did complete all four years--all blacks aren't drop outs). In addition, I have obtained my license for real estate, I do not have any children, I don't listen to all that stick em' up, bang yo back out music, I am very involved in church...and I strongly love the Lord. Who are we to judge? We are here to help one another not put each other down. All of us have to take a more conscious effort to help those who are less fortunate and help those who lack direction/motivation. God loves us all equally and commands us to love each other the same. We all have to strive to have the mind, attitude, and ways of Christ because He is who saves...so next time you are putting people down, remember this..."Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food: I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink: I was a stranger, and You took Me in not : naked and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and You visited Me not. Then shall they also answer unto Him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall He answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, when you refused to help the least of these, you did it also unto Me." (Matthew 25:41-45) As a result: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

So no I do not excuse Mr. Cosby's comment no matter how popular the world thinks he is. What matters is the opinion of the Father. Let's be mindful of the things that way say...because the tongue is a sword and it is deadly. Speak life...Speak Prosperity, Speak Success...The bible says, "Speak those things that are not as though they were" and we can be sure to watch them come to pass, because there is nothing to hard for God!

God Bless

Patterson
July 2 2004, 12:50PM

For contacting previous post message regarding comments, use only 2x t's in Patterson. Previous email is an error.

Tim
July 2 2004, 1:25PM

Hi. I'm new to this forum and I was just reading through to get a feel for whether Bill Cosby's comments were appropriate and helpfull for the black community or not. I have always been interested in race relations in the US. I am white. Now that I've said that I almost get the feeling that a certain set of assumptions will be made about my person. I try to see every person as a person, blind of racial predjudice. I do not know how many members of the white community aspire to do the same, nor do I know how many members of the black community aspire to do the same. However, I do have a level of uncomfort, maybe even fear, in discusing racially relevant topics with members of the black community. I feel that I need to be on guard for personal attacks of racism due to my membership in the white community and how that membership is perceived in regards to racial and social dynamics in this country by members of the black community. Now you know my concerns and fears. Now my opinion, which is the opinion of an anonymous member of the white community that I feel should be no more biased than the opinion of an anonymous member of the black community. I don't see white and black. I don't see or value myself as a white man but as an individual who happens to be born white. If I was born black would I have been a different person? If you were born white would you be someone entirely different? I do not see life through that lens. I do see society however as composed of distinct groups where membership in those groups can and often will greatly affect individual identity, values, and beliefs. Groups such as these in the US include: white (general), black, irish, protestant (subgroups: baptist, evangelical, etc.), catholic, islamic, arab, jewish, cubs fans, middle class suburbanities, lower class rural, lower class urban, lower class white, lower class black, south, north, east coast, west coast, democrat, republican, etc. As you can see, we all find ourselves defined by membership in different groups. I am a member of the white group. What does that mean? I am not really sure. I guess it could mean that I buy into white values or beliefs or ideals. But I am not a slave to my group, I am an individual, so I can also chose my values, beliefs, and ideals for myself. Now several in this forum are part of the black group. What does that mean? It could mean that each of you buy into black beliefs, ideals, and values. However each of you are also individuals so you can choose your own beliefs, ideals, and values as well. I feel that as a member of our greater society in this country, I should not be viewed as an outsider by any black person. I should be viewed as a neighbor, a fellow citizen, a coworker, a potential friend, etc. I feel that black individuals should be entitled to be viewed the same way within the white community. I feel that it would be hypocritical to fault the white community for failing to welcome the black community if the black community wouldn't do the same. I don't care about blame. I don't care about which group did what to whom. I care about people, not groups. Groups don't have souls, groups don't feel pain, groups don't feel love, people do. When a group is said to love, or said to hate, it is because the people belonging to the group do so. So why should I not be able to talk with members of other groups, when it just comes down to us all being people? Or is this wrong? Should we remain seperate and bound by our groups? If so racism will never dissipate or end. I think what we have in this country is an us vs. them mentality between white and black people. Some have proposed that the white community deal with their own demons, and the black community do the same? I for one would welcome a black man or woman to give insight into any white issue. I would hope other white people would as well, as I hope would members of the black community with a white person. But this forum does have a tone of us vs. them. Just my thoughts.

JCC
July 2 2004, 5:49PM

I feel that Mr. Cosby is 100 percent right. I work at a Prison and I see this behavior even in the Prison system the blacks continue to be repeat Offenders looking for hand outs,having very bad attitudes,the bad language, the slang talk and the disrespect to Females. Don't get me wrong the whites can raise cain too, but we have problems with the blacks more often than the white wannabes...(that try to act Blk) I see it as a product of no training and love at home and these guys age range from 19yrs on up.

JCC
July 2 2004, 6:42PM

I feel that Mr. Cosby is 100 percent right. I work at a Prison and I see this behavior even in the Prison system the blacks continue to be repeat Offenders looking for hand outs,having very bad attitudes,the bad language, the slang talk and the disrespect to Females. Don't get me wrong the whites can raise cain too, but we have problems with the blacks more often than the white wannabes...(that try to act Blk) I see it as a product of no training and love at home and these guys age range from 19yrs on up.

High School Teacher
July 3 2004, 1:58AM

Some African American leaders worried that Dr. Cosby's comments would fuel stereotypes held by whites. It is not the messenger who should be blamed for highlighting what is so easily observed. I teach at an urban high school in Los Angeles where the "ghetto-fication" of our students is a growing phenomena. When kids cause problems, the parents run up to the school, often dressed as inappropriately as the student, and automatically blame the teacher, the administration, the school district for the social ills of their child. Of course, we never see these parents at Back To School night or parent-teacher conferences. Not all, but many parents will lie on documentation to move their children into better schools and lie to enroll their children into a better athletic programs. If their children can run fast or make a couple of baskets in a row, they think their kids are going to be the next NBA or NFL stars and there is little need to focus on academics.

Wake up folks... the nature of our society is leading into two directions: those who are highly educated, moving into highly technical and complex occupations and those who are not. Period. Would you rather buy the sneakers, or own the company? To the parents who may read this: don't placate your own guilt by buying your children things you cannot afford. Rather, save the money and buy stock in the companies who will give you a rock solid return on your dollars.

Flash
July 3 2004, 10:23AM

Bill Cosby has certainly pointed out some of the problems, but the solutions have yet been mentioned.

You cannot remove racism by being equal. Racism is taught by racists to the next generation. You can only remove racism by being superior to your oppressors. Every time a black male is pictured in a artist's sketch of the suspect in a murder on the news, it fuels the white stereotype of blacks and gives racist parents another example of how "all" blacks behave.

Image, just imagine, how hard it would for a child to believe that lie if most of the artist sketches on the news were of white people?

When the illegitimacy rate, the number of bastard children (we used to call children born out of wedlock bastards not children of single parent families) amoung blacks exceeds by a factor of three that of whites, even after adjusting for income and education levels, we just as fuel to the racist image of blacks.

Buying a black child $500 sneakers will never make him a Michael Jordan. Sending him to business school will.

nekole
July 8 2004, 1:22PM

Until we, the human race, learn to humble ourselves we will continue to neglect ourselves. Opting instead to point fingers in directions away from our own face . The human race is in trouble because we look at small pictures within small frames, pointing the blame while problems still remain, as problems. Solutions are thrown around, then doubt arises when disagreements surface. Instead of joining the endless cast of judges, work on loving instead of shoving insults in the faces of others. We should all have one common goal and that is to love our sisters and brothers. Cast color aside, or else we will remain capsized in waves of illusion. Walking around with looks of confusion. Snoozing while walking. Pointing fingers and gawking instead of talking. So many of us have been and continue to desperately search for the "instantanous" fix. Just as it takes a while to gain bad habits it takes just as long if not longer to break them. It's amazing the number of self professed preachers we have who do not practice the advice that drips from their lips. Humility is a characteristic that we can all stand to work on, on a daily basis. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it is thinking of yourself LESS. Wanda Sykes, Bill Cosby, George Bush, terror, drugs, Iraq, molestation...etc, so what are YOU doing if not to change the world, but to change the world around you. Who knows if enough people start doing instead of talking, maybe we could start walking foward; together. It could also become contagious, catching like "fire!" So it goes..."Faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1Corinthians 13

Gwendolyn
July 12 2004, 11:44AM

I would have to say that I agree with Mr. Cosby. The truth hurts, especially when it is spoken by one of our own, in mixed company. I think that lots of people fail to realize that Mr. Cosby is a product of his own struggles, and he prevailed. I think that the response of Black America would have been quite different if Bill Cosby had been a middle-class Black man struggling to pay his bills just like the rest of us. But, on the contrary, he is a very successful (and I dare say rich) man. However, we quickly forget that he struggled and prevailed in a time when it was extremely difficult for minorities to do so. Now, it's hard for him to look around and see that every time one of us gets into trouble, we want to blame racism or the "white man." It's very frustrating because we don't want to really take responsiblity for some of our failures. So, now he blasts us in front of the enemy. So what? He said something that we have always said amongst ourselves, something that we have always known and watched it grow increasingly worse, and yet we've ignored it as if it will go away. Problems don't get solved when we pretend they aren't there. Mr. Cosby was simply saying "I've worked hard to get where I'm at, and why shouldn't everyone else do the same." We shouldn't be crippled by the statistics, because numbers don't lie. We should do something about it - make something of ourselves.

Tim
July 13 2004, 11:43AM

To Nekole: I whole heartedly agree with and appreciate what you said in your post. Thank you for pointing out, among other things, that we are all human and that love for our neighbors, humility for ourselves, and taking real action in our lives can and will bring about change in our communities and greater society.

To Gwendolyn: If I were to visit a forum with predominately white members, and a member labeled any given ethnic group, gender, age group, etc. "the enemy" I would be outraged and would immediately make my thoughts known that I consider such a label as racist, sexist, etc. Black and White races in this country are NOT enemies! Let me say that again, WE ARE NOT ENEMIES! We are all brothers and sisters of the human race. We are all loved under GOD. We fight, granted. There is animosity. But there is also compassion, love, and a desire to bring reconciliation by members of both races. I recall a very influential and admired man who once said that he dreamed of the day when a person would be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. So I object to any one judging me, my neighbors, my friends, or any good person by the their being white or black. The world is racist. Many white people are racist, many black people also. The only solution is to breed more love than contempt, stop thinking in terms of our group vs. their group (the enemy), and mend fences instead of building walls. You can't beat the white race. That's just unrealistic. Unfortunately there is a period in our country's history where several white communities tried to beat the black race, and thanks to the courage of the black men and women of that time, they failed. The fact is that neither race can or will beat the other. Now, most white people I know don't get together and conspire to how they can harm the black race. Many white people I know do have a taint of subversive racism in the form of negative stereotypes of black people, but they if anything are ashamed of the fact that they hold those stereotypes and try to make an effort to be more open-minded. I feel that the more negative stereotypes we remove in white people's minds, the closer we come to the solution to racism in this country. However I also feel that there are many negative stereotypes of white people in the minds of several black people. These also must diminish and eventually disappear if we are to make racism a thing of the past. A racist is one who discriminates based on the race of an individual. That person can be white, black, asian, indian, native american, or anything. So when someone calls an entire race of individuals who share the same skin pigmentation (or lack of) "the enemy," I feel that person should be informed by his fellow brothers and sisters that such a comment breeds contempt and only serves to reinforce racial barriers. By the way, here's an interesting thought, or more of a question. If racial lines do eventually and completely dissappear, what will be the identity of the black community? Or will their even be any more black and white communities, just racially integrated human communities?

Linda Cooper
July 15 2004, 1:10AM

I remember in the 60s when I lived down south , I would see the innocent looks, modest dress, and quiet manner of most blacks in the city. Now I see the bangles and see through dressed, loud lip color and swearing , threatening their kids verbally and oh, just a sort of roughness that has emmanated because they did not realizwe that with freedom came responsibility. There are not enough conservative blacks because all have been traumatized by rap music and gleam, yes, gleam, whether it be from sex, music, drugs or food, the gleam has been rocked away from its anchor.

Linda Cooper
July 15 2004, 1:11AM

I remember in the 60s when I lived down south , I would see the innocent looks, modest dress, and quiet manner of most blacks in the city. Now I see the bangles and see through dressed, loud lip color and swearing , threatening their kids verbally and oh, just a sort of roughness that has emmanated because they did not realizwe that with freedom came responsibility. There are not enough conservative blacks because all have been traumatized by rap music and gleam, yes, gleam, whether it be from sex, music, drugs or food, the gleam has been rocked away from its anchor.

Linda Cooper
July 15 2004, 1:44AM

My above comment was immediate, expressed as I felt it right then, much like the reactions of young blacks to stimuli in the environment, alot of it is reactionary, in the comment above you can see some racism, some ignorance but a little truth , about the gleam, I suggest that the free key and part of the solution, is not the music etc, but the lack of time for just time, for quietness, so then brain waves could come in that could change the way alot of young blacks think and act. It there was a pause, quietness, maybe the gun wouldn't go off in a drive-by, a time-out, maybe fewer mf words would come out and in the serenity of the mood of the solitude of the creative mind, an English book would be sought after, or a math book or something concrete, to rile up against all the abstract thought that is perpetuated by constantly being bombarded with noiseetc. one thing about the fields, they did create gospel singing, soothing to the soul, their movements for change were done in a more quiet, measured manner, and they did succeed. Has anyone found out the history of all the black politicians after the Civil War? I just know , the human brain cannot take the barrage of anything without misfiring. I know that. So please, some quietness, not blame, just yearn for some solitude. I love all of you. I am white, but I have admired so much the qualities of several black , hardworking , humble, God fearing black people I used dto know from Georgia and Alabama. I know that guy from the gang with the bad language is deep down a child of God, give him or her a chance, but first give them some quietness. Bill Cosby spoke, now, lets all just relax for awhile. Why do we have to REACT to EVERYTHING in this country??

News Editor
July 22 2004, 11:36PM

We have a copy of a speech to text transcript on the "Urban Cartographer Online" Web site at www.eightcitiesmap.com - just scroll down the menu bar and click on the "To Bill Cosby" line.

Read it for yourself and reach your own conclusions.

Long live the First Amendment!

--30--

The Editor

Londell
July 30 2004, 3:49PM

In response to bkylnds, I have to agree with Patterson. While I, as most of us, come from what was considered "low income" or middle to lower-middle class families, I can't not support the bashing of those of us who have not seized the opportunities before them as I have. I must remember all of the sacrifices that my grandparents, my mother and my father made for me in order for me to have some sort of privilege in my life. Today, while I am not rich, I live comfortably. Through all of this I remember that it is now my duty and obligation to give back to my community. I grew up in Denver, and there are not many of us here and the community is very fragmented. Blacks that can, do and have, rarely, and I mean rarely, come down to the city to show support for the larger community.

Example, in the 50's the Five Points area of Denver was likened to Harlem, a thriving black and self-sufficient community. Since then, the neighborhood has deteriorated and is now in the midst of gentrification. Five Points is the place where the community would celebrate Black History activities, Juneteenth, the Black Arts Festival and several other community events. That was until, middle to upper-middle class black folks who lived in Montebello (a northern suburb of Denver, mostly black) decided that they did not want to come downtown and created a new celebration in their neck of the woods. Since then, the downtown celebration has never been the same. It seems that when some of us get a few coins in our pocket we immediately think that we are better than others, and yes, I have been guilty of these thoughts and actions. Like Patterson said and or alluded to, we are all responsible for each other, and no I don't expect us to hold hands and sing Kum By Ya, but I do expect us to extend a hand for help.

daryl
August 7 2004, 4:56PM

I konw this may be late coming but I am tired of people saying "I agree with what Cosby said but not how he said it." That's a load of crap. I come from a family of well-educated black folk and I was taught the hard way how to act in public. There's nothing wrong with speaking BLack English (and for the record its not speaking standard English incorrectly its just another dialect but that's for another discussion)I and my friends do it all the time.

I think what Cosby was saying as well as my mother when she would whoop (not spank, I grew up in NC) me is: "Pull it together. Act accordingly." Curse all you want to at home but when you go to work act like you are at work.

I onced managed the operation a large retail venue. I had over 100 employees +14 warehouse workers and a support staff of 5. Many of my cashiers where youngsters. Now I'm definitely not prejudice and before me they would never hire black males in any position dealing with customer service. But let me tell you the majority of those black and latin kids who came into my office were totally unprepared for an interview. They were sloppily dressed, ill-mannered. Some even cursed and others were just flat out illiterate or so frightened of "authority" they would avert eye contact and grunt one and two word responses.

Now back to my point. I think we (as African-Americans) need a slap in the face. When I see a young black boy on the subway with dirty jeans, a du-rag and screaming the N-word at the top of his lungs, punctuated with the f-word I shake my head in horror and disgust. When I see 15 year old black girls running the streets in my neighborhood (yes I live in Harlem) at 1:30 in the morning with breasts and butts hanging out everywhere I say to myself how has this behavior become alright.

So again to reiterate I would be the first to tell you I would not hit my kids, but everytime I want to scream the f-word aloud or curse every white boy on my job out I think of those little taps to my ass and sit up and fly right. Let's rebel the right way. Tear the structure down from the inside out. Like my mother always said you can swim in the sewer just don't drink the water it'll make you sick.

Yaoi Huntress Earth
August 27 2004, 7:40PM

Even though I'm not Black, I do believe that Mr. Cosby makes some good points despite his own hypocracies and personal flaws. Then again you have to look at the environment a number of low-income Blacks (and other races) are in. When the school systems are crap and there is constant violence and dispair around you, it's hard to have hope for a better life. Let alone a lack of available birth control and sex education which could help reduce the rate of underaged parents. Sometimes when you're at the bottom, if you fail it wouldn't even matter.
But I also believe that the way Black culture is potrayed can also be very hurtful. Just look at the characters Chris Tucker or Martin Lawrence potray; they're jive-talking idiots. I'm not saying that Black characters should be saints, make them human and with some brain power for christsakes.

Townson Wells
August 29 2004, 8:16PM

I think Cosby was right. I was never a racist or even looked at blacks a different way until I got into high school. People always say "whites" are racist. But these days, whites are the only ones trying to turn things around. Not blacks, they just point fingers. When I got into high school I was mistreated for being white. I am glad that Cosby took a stand. I am behind him 100%.

lloyd
September 12 2004, 12:16AM

well the only thing that i hate about some black people is they blame us for slavery it's not our fault it happend let it go. if any one needs to be apoligize to is the indians. black people could have left the indians had no chose but to say. so if you choose to say in usa speak proper eglish and that goes for every body thats lives here. and i think mr cosby is right instead of buying the name brand gear put it up for college

beyondfree
September 12 2004, 12:34AM

Bill Cosby is a hypocrite and an idiot. He seems to have forgotten that he fornicated and possibly had a baby that he did not take care of. He was a high school dropout. He got lucky. What is his point? Does he believe his rantings are helping anyone other than white media. He could use his fame and money to make a diffence in the communities that he is knocking. I think senility is setting in. For heavens sake. He is now being bragged on at the KKK and stormfront sites.

FatAlbert
September 12 2004, 12:52AM

Lloyd....slavery happened.Whites are to blame for slavery and thats that. The effects of slavery are still with us today. Why do so many whites think black people should not talk about slavery and its effects but want us to talk about Columbus and Davy Crockett and Abe Lincoln and etc? Your statement that Indians had no choice to stay but blacks could go is ignorant. What are you talking about? Whites have no more rights to America than anyone else. As a matter of fact, it was an African named Pedro Alonso Nino who guided Columbus here and there were Africans living here alongside the Native Americans when Columbus was led here. If anyone should leave, its whites. African slaves learned English from uneducated white american slaveowners and to this date whites don't speak any better than blacks. Proper English by who's definition?

Runie
September 15 2004, 1:25PM

COSBY IS COMPLETELY ACCURATE IN HIS ANALYSIS. REGARDLESS OF HIS BACKGROUND IN CHEATING HIS FAMILY OR WHATEVER, HE IS ACCURATE. MR. COSBY SPOKE ABOUT THE LANGUAGE USED SUCH AS, "WHY YOU AIN'T?" OR "WHERE YOU IS?" SHOULD PARENTS SPEAK THIS WAY? AND SHOULD A TEENAGER OR YOUNG PERSON ALSO SPEAK THIS WAY WHEN THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOL THAT IT IS THE WRONG WAY TO SPEAK? THESE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WILL WALK INTO AN INTERVIEW ROOM AND NOT GET THE JOB BECAUSE IN ORDER TO WORK IN GOOD ENVIRONMENT, AN EMPLOYER WILL WANT SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS PROPERLY. THEY ARE ALSO THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY THEY DID NOT GET THE JOB BECAUSE OF RACISM. HERE'S THE THING-NOT EVERYONE IS A RACIST AND NOT EVERYONE BASES EMPLOYMENT ON RACE. THEY ARE ALSO THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WILL LABEL SPEAKING PROPERLY AS BEING "WHITE." WHY? I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL. PLEASE, WOULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?
ALSO, WITH THE MOVIE TOPIC. WHY ARE THE MOVIES THAT PORTAY BLACKS AS PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PARTY AND SMOKE AND DRINK, AND MAYBE EVEN ROB A STORE OR KILL SOMEONE, THE MOVIES THAT WE ENJOY TO WATCH SO MUCH. IF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY WANTS TO BE SEEN AS BETTER, WHY WOULD THEY ALSO ENDORSE SUCH MOVIES THAT PUTS THE COMMUNITY BACK A FEW DECADES? THESE ARE SOME OF MY IDEA, IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO EMAIL ME ABOUT THEM-WHETHER IT BE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE COMMENTS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME.

H. K. Owens
September 29 2004, 1:41PM

Say it Loader Mr. Cosby and don't stop until everyones talking and changes are being made for the better. Keep them thinking. God Bless/Peace

Chris Tiffany
October 1 2004, 7:40PM

Subject: Millionnaire re. "lower economic people" "these people"
"You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"

Why is it ok for that kind of crap coming out of the millionnaire's mouth,
and for the rich to use heroin & cocaine,
and get all lah-de-day, hoity-toity, saditty, drinking their wine & bourbon & liquers
when all studies indicate that "LOWER ECONOMIC PEOPLE" in all societies
are more religious than the rich, generally, DRINK LESS THAN THE RICH,
and probably use less illicit drugs, too,
and the teenaged children of the rich are at least
as delinquent as the those of the poor.

The issue is not "race" -- it's social status: RACE & CLASS.

Rich = evil, more often than not.

Speaking in "low-class" dialects -- the language TAUGHT to slaves
by slave-breakers from Devonshire ("Ebonics" -- so-called is
ENGLISH -- the English of South England, rather than the Anglish of
upper-class London) -- speaking
ANY dialect for CENTURIES implies CENTURIES of social isolation/exclusion.

My wife and her family (from rural North Carolina) have been condemned as
"low class" but they are ALL morally superior in ALL ways to snobs.
I love my in-laws, and despise the [mostly] better-educated
light-skinned and non-Southerners
who are so quick to condemn the salt of the Earth.

Mary Ann
October 12 2004, 9:51AM

The only way to stop racism is for all of us to treat ourselves and each other with respect and dignity. I am offended as a person with white skin to be blamed for slavery because of my skin color. I personally cannot help what happened prior to my birth. All I can control is how I act and what I do as a parent and citizen of this country. I believe it is every person's obligation to go to school and learn to be the best person they can be to every one. It doesn't mean you will get a free ride. It doesn't mean that bad luck won't happen to you. But we can all work to make our lot better. I truly believe that Mr. Cosby is trying to make that point. I applaud his efforts to try to make a difference.