The Down Low Returns

By Keith Boykin, in sexuality
Friday, April 16 2004, 1:28AM

Just when you thought it was safe to read the paper again, the decade's most overhyped story on black sexuality returns. No, the media are not breaking down stereotypes by showing black gay and lesbian couples who are in healthy relationships. No, they're not explaining the false choice that suggests all blacks are straight and all gays are white. No, they're not educating us about how to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. Instead, they're talking about the secret, underground, clandestine, mysterious (take your pick) lifestyle of black men on the DL. The down low is back!

The down low is a term used to describe black men who have sex with men but do not identify as gay. The term entered the media lexicon about three years ago as a sexy and sexual explanation for the spread of HIV among straight black women.

The news stories first appeared in the winter of 2001 and peaked again in spring 2002. Then the story dropped off the front pages for more than a year. Last summer, the New York Times Magazine ran a controversial cover story about men on the down low. In the 21 years I've been reading the magazine, I don't ever remember a single cover story about black gay men and AIDS. But now the down low is back in fashion for the spring 2004 collection.

Today Oprah delves into the down low with an entire show about the topic. Last week, New York Times reporter Linda Villarosa wrote about the down low in the Times. Comedian Mo'Nique is featured on the front page of a recent special edition of POZ magazine talking about the down low. Even the television show Law and Order aired an entire episode about the down low recently. The down low is definitely back.

Why Now?

What's driving this new frenzy of down low media scrutiny? Has the CDC released new data about the down low? No. Has anyone been able to prove that men on the down low are primarily responsible for the spread of HIV among black women? No. Then what's going here, and why now?

Sadly, it's mostly about money. Next month, Doubleday is about to release a new book on the down low by author J.L. King, a former down low brother himself. King will also be one of the featured guests on Oprah today. With the help of the media, King has become the posterboy for the down low.

While the rest of America is debating whether gays and lesbians should have the freedom to marry, black gay and bisexual men, thanks to the down low, are reduced to pathologies and predators. No one writes about our relationships, our heartbreaks, our love. That's not interesting.

Sanctimonious black ministers beat us down every Sunday at church. Angry black women condemn us. And the black media portray us as lying, cocksucking, disease-spreading villains.

And yet, our self-esteem is so low that we're proud just to be mentioned by the media. I can't tell you how many emails and phone calls I've received the past two weeks about Oprah's show on the down low. It's as if black gay men feel that we've finally made it to the big leagues.

Yes, we've made it all right. We've made it to the point where we are public enemy number one to the black community. That's hardly a reason for celebration.

It's fine if publishers want to use all their tools to sell their books, but do we have to misdirect resources in responding to a legitimate public health crisis in the process? Do we have to mislead the public to educate it?

Many of our sisters seem to understand what's going on. Interviewed by POZ recently, Mo'Nique was wise enough to explain why down low men exist. "They're on the down low because nobody's talking to them," she said. "We can't deal with the honesty. We want to be lied to."

Problems With The DL Story

There are many problems with the down low story, but the major problem is that it's based on the principle of vilifying the very people we need to reach. Demonizing people who have already been stigmatized into silence will not end their silence. Instead, we will drive these men further and further into their closets of shame and denial.

Then there's the problem of personal responsibility. Blaming the spread of HIV on men on the DL completely misses the point. Each of us is individually responsible for our own sexual behavior.

We can't blame our man for lying to us if we're not using protection on our own. But the DL phenomenon discourages black women from exercising personal autonomy. To the extent that we can point our fingers at someone else, we implicitly exculpate ourselves from responsibility. Thus, straight black women are portrayed as innocent while closeted black gay and bisexual men are portrayed as guilty without anyone attempting to understanding how to lift their burdens.

Here's another part of the story that doesn't get told. The down low is not new. Men have been having sex with other men since the beginning of time. The term "gay" is a 20th century construction, so no men identified as such before the 1900s. All men who engaged in homosexual behavior throughout history would be on the down low by today's standards.

When Oprah asks King how he can tell who is on the down low, he tells her, "we do it by the eyes...I could make a connection in this room." I don't know why that's news, but where I come from they call it "gaydar," and it's so yesterday.

Neither is the down low specific to blacks. White, Asian and Latino men also have sex with other men but don't identify as gay. And by the way, not all men on the down low are HIV positive. The assumption that men on the DL are spreading the HIV virus to black women is based on another assumption that all these DL men are infected with HIV.

Moreover, men on the DL who are HIV positive are just as "victimized" by HIV as the black women who contract the disease from them. But there's still another problem in the discussion because there's no conclusive evidence that men on the DL are responsible for the rise in HIV infections among black women.

Sheryl Johnson, a community outreach organizer who appears on the show today, told the Atlanta Daily World that she was concerned about the emphasis on the down low. "Oprah's a powerful woman a lot of people listen to. She could have done a lot to spread some important information and save some lives, but she chose to focus on what I think is a rather sensational book," Johnson said.

Fortunately, Phill Wilson of the Black AIDS Institute will also appear on the show. But Oprah's decision to do the show at all gives credibility to a theory that's lacking in evidence.

We do know this. Black gay and bisexual men have been living with HIV and dying of AIDS for almost a quarter of a century now. The HIV infection rates for this group are the highest in the country. But the media and the black community have never treated this crisis with the same energy now devoted to "the DL threat" to straight black women.

If we seriously care about the spread of HIV, we can't isolate our concern and efforts on one segment of the community and ignore another. We have to create a climate of love instead of fear, where black men who have sex with men are not stigmatized by the church, the media, their families and their friends.

In fact, the whole DL mythology at some level acknowledges the struggle of the black man on the down low. He doesn't identify with the white gay community, and he's not accepted by the black community, so he goes underground and creates a secret fraternity of sex partners.

But if that's true, then our solutions are way off base. If we accept the premise that black homosexuality is that difficult, then why not break down those barriers? Why not use the media to portray the black gay and bisexual men who are out of the closet, living openly in their relationships, and who have reconciled their careers, their families and their faith with their sexuality.

If it's really hard to be black and gay and out, then those who are black and gay and out are the true heroes who deserve recognition. The New York Times Magazine should profile that group of people. Black media should tell their stories. And maybe, just maybe, Oprah will do a show on black gay men one day as well.

Comments (189) reveal

Comments conceal

Da D.L. Crib
April 16 2004, 4:57AM

Very good article. I have never understood why personal responsibility is never discussed. If women are getting HIV from bisexual men then this means that "straight" women do not insist that their partners use protection. It would seem that the problem lies there. Besides HIV other STD's are spreading as well and the lack of protection is the cause. If the same energy was used to spread that message as opposed to vilifying a sexual preference, then there would not be such high incidents of STD's.

The infatuation with the D.L. lifestyle in the straight community is curious and is probably a case of "thou protests too much." Perhaps these people throwing stones would like to participate but do not, since bisexuality to most is a sexual taboo!

Tom
April 16 2004, 7:58AM

Great piece. I totally agree. You are really insightful.

Craig
April 16 2004, 8:34AM

I get the feeling, we are at war and have no idea what weapons to use concerning sexuality as it is. Yes, the proper weapons to educate scoiety on sexuality are out there, it's just a matter of being willing to use them and accept them. It's time for us as queer folk to stop crawling and begin to walk and ultimately run. Run with the baton of self-worth and nothing less. Keith, continue to prophecy the truth. Twa-twa.

Rockwell
April 16 2004, 9:50AM

This was a very insightful article. As usual the mainstream media needs scapegoats for the AIDS epidemic and Black DL guys are the first on the list this round. The focus has now shifted from white gay men in the 80's to black women in the 90's to black gay men in this decade. When will the blame game stop?

Why cant the mainstream media and cable networks broadcast new shows such as Noah's arc, but are so ready to broadcast the all white Queer as Folk? Its because they would rather demonize us than show show positive images of us. I hope Oprah as a black woman will be as objective as possible and not pander to sensatinalism.

Peace.

Larry
April 16 2004, 9:59AM

I wonder if anyone will have the guts, the sense, or the honesty to bring up the fact that the way that the community---the black community in particular---treats gay men who are out of the closet is the #1 reason why so many of the men who can "blend in" with the str8 population because of their masculine demeanor feel that they need to just "do what they do" regards living a gay lifestyle with ever saying anything about it...

Larry
April 16 2004, 10:01AM

correction.......WITHOUT ever saying anything abou it...

tracy
April 16 2004, 10:08AM

5 stars Keith! Thanks so much for a truly insightful essay on this topic.

It is still important to practice safe sex. Period.

As women, we need to work on personal resposibility. There's no way to "tell" who your partner has slept with before - or who else they may be with now. There is a way to prevent the spread of AIDS, and that message has been out for over 20 years.

cmoney
April 16 2004, 10:14AM

Maybe Oprah is exorcising her own demons with this story. Steadman comes to mind. Yeah, I went there. Hey, if she wants to start a discussion on DL brothers, lets talk about why she never married Steadman. Do they even have sex? Is she just his "beard" (as they used to call Rock Hudson's "play wife" and girlfriends in Hollywood when he was on the "DL" and getting AIDS)? Is Steadman her "front"? I don't suppose Oprah will be discussing her own life on her show, but she will surely look into the camera and shed some tears just before a commercial break.
What pisses me off the most is that the same Black women who complain about men having unsafe sex and being dishonest about their sexuality, are the same women who are having unsafe sex and being dishonest themselves. They go to homophobic churches that are full of queens and put pressure on these queens (often with the help of the minister and others in the "Church family") to marry them.
A co-worker of mine, that I used to see out in the clubs all the time and is a flaming queen, to put it mildly, just married a girl from his church. He was so determined to prove that he was married that he brought his marriage certificate to work and e-mailed his wedding photos all around the office. Perhaps he knew that everyone knew that he is gay and that his marriage is a fraud upon society. This guy even confided to me that he had difficulty "consummating" his marriage because he had not been with a woman in over 10 years! I am sure they were both fighting for the bottom on that honeymoon night!
Clearly, pathology is at work here. Self hating queens. Black women so desperate for a husband that they totally ignore the obvious sexual preferences of the men they pursue and marry. We have some whacky people in our society. Focusing only on the DL Black man and HIV misses more than half the problem.

Kwei Quartey
April 16 2004, 10:54AM

Thanks to Keith's essay. I am always grateful that we have him - an independent and clear-minded intellectual who sets the record straight. For all reading this forum, keep my name in mind. I am also writing a book on DL, which I hope will be published. The style will be different from what it appears JL King's book is. Mine will be an examination of the African-American man and his fight throughout history from the time of slavery to the present day to clear his ever-tarnished name, the renewal of this villification through the vehicle of "DL", the REASONS why black men are DL and why it is nothing new, and why it is not really a phenomenon restricted to black men. The work will also examine the state of modern relationships between black men and women and how black women share some culpability in all that is going wrong. I will also question the statistics on the spread of HIV among black women, and after reading King's book I will probably devote space to dissecting his work as well. My book will probably not be as sensational as his, nor will it be some kind of horrifying confessional on my part (I'm gay but have never been "DL" in King's sense), and for those reasons may be harder to get published. Money talks. Any suggestions/input from others about what else I might include in my book are welcomed. My email is kjoq@earthlink.net

Kabanga
April 16 2004, 11:23AM

Great article.

You should be on Oprah, giving her the facts.

Also, BET shares some blame, as their always hyperbolic treatment of the news. For instance, they state that "a staggering 1 in 160 black women is HIV positive". Which made me go... but wait a minute... 1/160, that's 0.625%. Overall HIV infection in the USA is supposed to be 0.4%. That doesn't sound that dramatic?

Anyway, I found out from a website called avert.org, that the biggest impact on HIV infection in the black community doesn't come from gay men, or even bisexual men, but from intravenus drug users.

That's where the real emphasis should be - the war on drugs that stops government from treating addiction as a medical condition, and turns addicts into criminals instead. Massive incarceration, and a serious hampering of effective treatment of long term addicts result, causing them to share needles and spread HIV into the black community.

A story you won't hear.

Andy
April 16 2004, 11:25AM

Great essay Keith - thank you for your continued insights.

Jim Wayland
April 16 2004, 11:48AM

The only thing I might add to all these very astute comments is that, from my own perspective as a white gay man, the DL phenomenon also feeds that old stereotypical homoeroticization of the black male for much of the white gay community. I try to be conscious and cognizant, but I have to admit I'm not immune to these hypermasculine images of thugs looking for man-to-man sex. Mandingo lives.

Nee
April 16 2004, 11:49AM

Sorry. I don't support the idea of DL brothas or sistas. Being out, isn't about telling everyone and their mama! Being in the closet doesn't mean creepin' on the DL. The media uses it to keep us in the closet. Cheating is cheating and you can catch AIDS/HIV from creepin' whether it's with a man or a woman. I think folks do need to talk about people cheatin' and infect their wives and husbands with STDs. Many Black families don't get married but they have been commited for years and years and that counts as marriage too and many don't use protection. I do believe you should protect your own, but in a heterosexual marriage and you're trying to create babies, you can't with condoms on lol. But you aren't legally married and not trying to have a family yet...wrap it up! So I have to stick up for the ladies a little...bit. I either see people saying DL men are the victims or the women they hurt are the victims. No one hardly likes to think equal. I'm actually tired of the topic. I don't like cheaters period. It gives the idea that bisexuality means you want both at the same time. I have a friend who swear that bisexuals will always be on the DL because of the attraction to both sexes or maybe just one. Whatever. People need to know who folks are sleeping with. Ask. Of course people lie, but at least you asked. Of course there's the fear that someone won't be with you for being bisexual, but hell...that's who you are and screw them if they don't like it. Honestly, that's how I have been. I'm bisexual and if someone doesn't like me for it, it's just like them not liking me because I'm black or young and educated whatever...they can go. I can't find any information that would justify cheating on someone either.

Clearly on Oprah...how much can a DL brotha be? This is nationwide tv broadcasted all over the world...lol.

Nee
April 16 2004, 11:52AM

There's hardly a look for being gay or straight anyway. You are who you are. If not, what am I suppose to look like? a butch-femme mix or something? I think not. lol.

cmoney
April 16 2004, 12:15PM

Kabanga's observation about the effect of incarceration on the spread of HIV is on point. Many of these so-called DL brothers were infected in jail by having sex with another man. Most, if not all prisons, refuse to provide condoms to the inmates since, in their opinion, they don't want to encourage sex. The fact of the matter is that these men are going to be men and are going to have sex whether a condom is available or not. An interesting epedemiolgical study would be to chart the level of HIV infection among Black women in a given area and compare that with the level of formerly incarcerated Black men in that same given area. I would hypothesize that the level of HIV infection among these Black women would closely coincide the number of ex-cons in the neighborhood. The war on drugs is a war on Black Americans in many ways that have yet to be realized. Until that war is over, we need to stop blaming everyone else for our health. Sexually transmitted diseases are the most preventable diseases. Unfortunately, ignorance is a disease that seems to have no cure.

Stan
April 16 2004, 12:17PM

There is a reason why the DL phenom is hot b/c so many guys (mostly blk) are doing it and proud of it. Go to yahoo groups and see how many black DL groups there are; go to AOL chat rooms and you see black DL m4m rooms. Read guys' profiles and you see lots of them describing themselves as DL (although some are just pretending) and only want other DL guys. I don't see that many wht or asian men adverstising themselves as DL (althou they exist). Personally I've had sex w/ a brotha and after sex he told he has a girl friend. I agree w/ Keith that DL men's contribution to the spread of hiv in the blk "straight" women population might be exaggerated but he can't deny that it IS a problem.

Ashe
April 16 2004, 1:08PM

We need to start a letter writting campaing to the Oprah show. J.L. King is making all black men look bad for the sake of money. He's been pimping his story to all media outlets. Supposedly he was going to be on ABC's 20/20. Now he went str8 to the Queen of media talk. Talk about lottery winner! He knows his appearance on Oprah will make him an instant millionair. I hate him for what he is doing. Fucker

Eva Young
April 16 2004, 1:59PM

Keith I agree with your point that the media should also be doing stories about Black Gay Men who are out.

Also your point that the DL isn't a black community only behavior is well taken. How many members of congress are on the DL?

Eva Young
April 16 2004, 2:03PM

I just emailed a copy of this article to the New York Times Public Editor - public@nytimes.com. I urge others to do this also. If enough people do this, the editor will comment on this in a future column.

It's good to use this as an opportunity to pressure the NY Times into more thoughtful coverage on this issue.

Eva

mr
April 16 2004, 2:51PM

On Soul Food last night, one of the main character's brother revealed that he was HIV positive. The character then spent 2 minutes insisting to his brother he isn't Gay or Bisexual and he caught it from having straight unprotected sex. This was followed up with the main character then discussing this with his wife and putting the blame on DL and homosexuals anyway. While the wife mildly says "don't be homophobic" the damage was already done. You had a respected African American male character on the only African American drama series on the air talking about how Black Gay men know HIV is out there and continue to have sex and spread it around infecting innocent people like his brother. His innocent brother by the way had infected his own wife and at least two other women by having unprotected sex. Why his "married" brother was sleeping with at least 2 or 3 other women outside his wife isn't brought up in any kind of negative light, why his brother would cheat without even using his God given brain to use a condom isn't mentioned either. I was disappointed by the statement the show made about Gay Black men even though one wasn't even involved in the crisis. We just became the group to blame for their problem. I didn't expect much from Law and Order SVU since African Americans do not write that show, but from Soul Food, since a part of their audience is Gay Black Men, and hopefully the writers are African American, I would have hoped for more.
By the way, Syphilis is also on the rise.

mr
April 16 2004, 3:28PM

By the way on the same episode of Soul Food, a main female character, married, has sex with her sister's boss. The two only met twice. Considering this was supposed to be a special HIV episode, they didn't even show this woman, questioning the guy she only really met twice about his sexual history, nor did they show a condom wrapper laying on the table or in view to show it was used. Yet the same show alludes to the irresponsibilty of the homosexual community.

jaymillionaire
April 16 2004, 4:12PM

Please do not ignore the DL problem in the black community. Call the partyline, search the internet, read the personals, DL men are dangerous provacators of unsafe sex and lack honesty and morals to be honest with themselves and their partners. We (as open black gay men) must hold the DL community accountable.

Blacks represent 43% of the HIV cases in the US. Black women are 23 times more likely to get HIV than white women.

As long as we make excuses and ignore that the DL issue is a urgent social concern due to the lack of lifestyle education and acceptance in the black community we will be mired in denial and our HIV rates will continue to rise.

Keith please do not urge criticizm of the messenger-- regarding the DL problem. After all the DL phenomenon is what is keeping many blacks from fostering healthy meaningful same-sex relationships.

Black women are being crucified for the black man's sins (yet again). LETS GET OURSELVES TOGETHER AND STOP SCREWING AND DEMAND CONDOM USE FROM THESE DISHONEST, SICK INDIVIDUALS.

If you attempt to beg the question by saying they (the liberal media?) are demonizing black man, ask yourself this, are lesbians creeping on the "Down Low" at the same rates as men?

I think not.

cmoney
April 16 2004, 4:31PM

jaymillionaire:You don't know lesbians, but you miss the point. EVERYBODY is humping around (including lesbians!)and everybody is at risk for getting or giving HIV. The point Keith is making is that the only party that seems to be blamed for the spread of HIV is Black gay men. Why? Was Rock Hudson villified for being on the DL? No. He even got married and played the leading man role in Hollywood for years, even as he was sick and dying on Dynasty. Where was the outcry about gay white men on the "DL" when he died and put his co-stars at risk? Even Magic Johnson has escaped this stigma by staying married and claiming to be straight (Right!).
This media hype about DL black men is nothing more than an attack on gay black men as long as the focus is only on black gay men. Of course HIV is a serious problem. No one disputes that. It will never be eradicated, though, as long as we continue to blame one segment of society while letting the rest of the ho's out there believe that they can have sex with anyone at anytime and only get a disease because someone ELSE was irresponsible.

Troy
April 16 2004, 5:02PM

cmoney thank you for saying it plain and simple and yes, I am sending a huge thank you card to Ms. Winfrey, thanking her, her hairdresser, her dismissal of all things gay and all her shortcomings, even that of super racist Mr. Disney who along with (King syndicate of Merv Griffin fame, yep him too) owns ABC which lines her pockets with all that is green to make her that big time billionaire. Back when she was black she was doing many an escort and date but we won't go there. Oh yeah there's a problem but it's deeper than blame, condoms and black men.
Take action to power yall; fight it! It all the ways possible by any means necessary, even by sending a Hallmark card.
J.L. King gets one too. For as many emails I got about this I will be sounding off. It's on!
The D.L. might get exposed but some other major shit needs to be exposed and called all the way out as well!
Straigtening combs -hot -burning and on fire, worldwide!!!

Troy
April 16 2004, 5:13PM

Just got off the phone with a friend of mine who said the show (oprah) wasn't about blame and the show was quite good. He also says he wants to buy J.L. King's book. I guess he was sold or maybe just maybe it was a genuine effort to get at some truth. Anywho I am here chained to my desk in KKKorporate america waiting on 5 to get on a crowded subway with all kinds of D.L.s praying the train is up and running and I get there in one piece....Wonder what if anything is next? How many changes can we go through and how many times we can tell ourselves it's okay. I wonder.

Stan
April 16 2004, 5:39PM

I agree with jaymillionaire. It's the blk gay men who glorify or proud to be on the DL that's contributing to the problem. By your logic, AIDS was thought of as primarily a white gay men's disease back in the 80s and media was full of stories on those, then aren't the media villifying white gay men then? The focus shifts now b/c it's a big problem in the blk community and they find the DL men is a big contributing factor (although how much is a big disbute). I mean let's be realistic here - how can you tell married women to use protection all the time(if they are trying to have children)? By focusing on the DL men at least hopefully these DL men can use protection if they want to cheat on their spouses and reduce the risk of transmitting disease to them.

AJ
April 16 2004, 5:42PM

Just watch and taped the show. I was very disappointed because Oprah did not spend enough time on HIV education. J.L King promoted lies. The sublimnal message in the program was that all DL men are HIV positive and that most Black men are on the DL and that they are positive too.

Laura
April 16 2004, 6:23PM

I'm inclined to agree with Keith that this DL bit is destructive media hype. It focuses on an old stereotype of the hypersexual Black man who, not satisfied with womanizing, goes out and gets even more to satisfy some voracious sexual appetite.

I also agree with Larry that the DL wouldn't be such an issue if Black gay men were treated better in our communities.

But even if all Black homophobia ended tomorrow morning, Black gay men would still have to deal with this bullcrap:

"I try to be conscious and cognizant, but I have to admit I'm not immune to these hypermasculine images of thugs looking for man-to-man sex. Mandingo lives."

Then hopefully you are doing all you can to educate yourself and your fellow white gays on how to end the racist Mandingo stereotype. They are a large part of the problem.

Cederico
April 16 2004, 6:29PM

I agree with a lot you say Keith but you will not see me defending the "DL". I know to many people on it and do all the irresponsible stuff that they are accused of. Its reality. Yes there are a million reasons but that doesn't change the fact that these men don't have the courage to be truthful to themselves or those in their lives.

As an out black gay man I am out there showing there are gay black men and we aren't bad eveil people. But I can't do it alone. Other black gay men need to get out of the closet and help bring about change. Black people aren't going to become less homophobic until we presents ourselves as who were and demand respect. How can you ask demand respect when you can't even admit you are gay or bisexual, you are cheating on your girl, living a double life, and not practicing safe sex (that only affects gays and I am not gay)?

Keith it is time we stop making excuses for the DL and giving it acceptance as a legtimate way for a black gay man should lead his life. It is time for these men to show some personal inner strength and be honest.

Another thing......black gay guys on the DL can't complain how the white gay community doesn't welcome them. They haven't tried....they are not even out. The white gay community ifs not gonna accept us until we first accept ourselves and demand a place at the gat table.

So no more excuses. There is a simple solution. COme out, be proud, protect yourself and your partners. Simple. No more if ands or butts.

Londell
April 16 2004, 6:56PM

"As an out black gay man I am out there showing there are gay black men and we aren't bad eveil people. But I can't do it alone. Other black gay men need to get out of the closet and help bring about change. Black people aren't going to become less homophobic until we presents ourselves as who were and demand respect. How can you ask demand respect when you can't even admit you are gay or bisexual, you are cheating on your girl, living a double life, and not practicing safe sex (that only affects gays and I am not gay)?"

I agree with Cederico 100%. Sorry for the quoting, but I found no need to retype what was already written!

alicia
April 16 2004, 6:58PM

ditto!!!

great column as always keith

i am sickened by and bored with all of it

DL bros are cowards and liars and closet gays/bis

cowards/liars and sexually confused toxic whorish people exist in all races

only the racist media would dare morph this into an exclusively black issue

they are only intensifying rabid hatreds of black gays by black hets

the black preachers need no such hateful help!!!

these DL dogs are living down to the myths that we homoa are all fatally germy creepers etc...

and why are the media is ignoring all of the DL sistas out there too!!!???

many het women are creeping with women too
many stud lesbians hunt sex with men on the DL too

cheating is cheating...whether with a male or female...hos rule

most people are rainbow dogs on the DL these days...

shame!!!

see more:
ie
the low down on the down low
at
www.geocities.com/ambwww/index.html

peace
ab

Kola Boof
April 16 2004, 7:04PM

I'm so disappointed today after watching OPRAH.

I really thought she was more intelligent than to fall for the "wording" surrounding this crisis in our community...and I think it's becoming an Urban Legend...these myths now surrounding "Black Men" and their alleged predisposal to gay sex...

What is really going on here? Is the media trying to scare off white women from sleeping with black men and to do it...they're creating this Down Low Bullshit?

Bi-sexuality has always been present in the WORLD and in every race of man, every community.

I'm not disputing the AIDS explosion amongst blacks. BUT...

I don't trust this particular story about the DL. I think that poverty and many other social issues that I don't feel like bringing up...including black women generally not being raised to place VALUE on themselves as other women are raised to...play a major role in this.

As well, our men are encouraged by rap videos all day that they're supposed to be fucking 10 women. Not 1. This also could account for this explosion.

I think there are other factors in portraying blacks as "undesirable" as sexual partners..to the nation.

alicia
April 16 2004, 7:06PM

i have never been a fan of oprah
because
she has more power than anyone else in america
because mainstream white america adores her and actually listens to her

and yet

she has never had anything real to say

her show is a fluffy tame safe waste of time

i miss donahue

it is truly a damn shame that a wm could host a show that was consistently more politically relevant to ALL black realities...

see more on oprah:
film review: belowved
at my site

peace
ab

alicia
April 16 2004, 7:11PM

i missed oprah
but there is a great recap of her DL show here:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200404/tows_past_20040416_c.jhtml

fyi

here is the thing i hate most:

DL fools are in denial

just because u do not call yourself gay does not mean u r not!

many out gay men never wed men/have male spouses etc either

a gay man can live alone or be a virgin forever,
be celibate until he dies, never marry anyone and still be a HOMOSEXUAL!!!

that is the reality behind all the toxic lying cheating delusional bs

a trash can filled with trash but unlabeled is still trash!

shame!!!
ab

Da D.L. Crib
April 16 2004, 7:20PM

The point was made in a few posts dealing with married couples. Yes, if a couple expected to have children condoms would not be used and if the husband (or wife) is creepin then they could contract HIV and spread it to their partner. This is true.

That a partner would infect the other with HIV is not the problem with this scenario. The problem is infidelity, as some posts have explained. Obviously, it is more catastrophic if a partner is infected with HIV because the other was creeping and have unprotected sex. Still the problem is fidelity or lack of. With the threat of HIV this raises the stakes but it still reverts back to can you trust your partner?

Incidents of couples admitting that they cheated sometime in their marriage are high. It would then follow that HIV infections would be high due to this. What is being vilified is that the disease was spread, not the reason.

Admitting ones sexual orientation to ones family, close circle of friends and acquaintances is a matter of choice. Some are comfortable with that while others are not. Personally, I do not want to know the sexual appetites of my friends and family because I feel it is none of my business.

alicia
April 16 2004, 7:28PM

when DL bros claim they "only play house with women" etc...

what women are ignorant enough to actually consider that a privilege/gift/compliment???!!!

het women should not be such eager and willing maids and chefs to their sorry cowardly asses!!!

that claim alone shows how toxic sexist abusive and ignorant they are

be a man
come out
and let another man be your slave

spare women ALL of your lies germs bs AND chores!

peace
ab

asentawa
April 16 2004, 8:00PM

Beyond personal responsibility through safe sex and gay black male invisibility, one important issue emerges as the least addressed and most missed. That is the freedom of people to privacy in their personal lives, especially when it comes to sexuality. What exactly are King and Oprah trying to accomplish through the media- to warn black women that the men who they are sleeping with might be gay and therefore more likely to have HIV or AIDS? Or that the men who they are sleeping with are not men at all, but perversions of masculinity who should make their shortcomings public for all to know and avoid. It is the puritanical conventinal wisdom of masculinity- what it is, how it looks, what if fucks- that results in so much dishonesty in American patriarchy, both public and personal. It seems to me that eveyone should loosely read Plato's Symposium, make marriage a civil right, and stop investigating each other's sexual dalliances.

Marlon
April 16 2004, 9:47PM

I think King left most females confused, and set the black male high on the ignorant scale. However, the brutha from the AIDS Institute saved the show; he should�ve shared the couch with King.

King left too many holes: he blamed black men for white men infecting their wives; and generalized all DL as ignorant sex crazed Negroes.

King didn�t mention the many DLs that get married too young before honestly exploring their sexuality, and with substantial years into marriage, they�re committed financially, emotionally, and psychologically, but realize they�re Gay, and have a loving sgl relationship on the DL.

Finally, I wasn�t surprised to witness Oprah�s detachment from reality. She actually thought acceptance of black gays had improved due to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and other shows. Who�s feeding Oprah all the bull?

blistering napalm
April 16 2004, 9:54PM

how is JL King DL?
sorry, folks, she is a kween

Terrence
April 16 2004, 10:38PM

Great commentary, Keith. I agree 100%.

JL King has no integrity. It's all about the money - same (ratings=money) with Oprah. I'm guessing King's book is as shallow as his DL behavior, and I certainly won't buy the book. He's being hailed as a hero for "exposing" the DL lifestyle, but he suggested on the show that he is still sexually involved with men.

He keeps saying that he did the book for his daughter, but does he really think that his book will protect his daughter from a DL man if the man is ultra determined to be DL? I don't think so.

While I think people should be educated, I am very disappointed in the Oprah Show. It was very sensational. I had faith that she would have made it balanced, but it wasn't. Phill Wilson definitely should have had more time to counter some of the fears and myths that JL King delivered. You would think that African-American males are the only men on the "DL" with HIV/AIDS by seeing the show.

Then for King to spread more fear by saying that white women are at risk for HIV because suburban white men are coming to urban areas for sex with black men men was very offensive to me. It suggested that white men are only being infected with HIV by black men - not by other sources. And what about these white men infecting black men?

I just find it astonishing that Oprah didn't have a representative from the C.D.C. (Centers for Disease Control) on her show to offer any statistical data. And did anyone see the HIV/AIDS map of the South that was shown? Showing that map, in my opinion, suggested that the DL was responsible for the increase of HIV/AIDS in the South.

Oprah's question was something like, "What is going on in the South?"

It was very clear that more HIV/AIDS health experts were needed on the show. If Oprah really wanted to educate people, she would have had more experts and less sensationalism.

Unfortunately, she has now lost some credibility with me.

FRE
April 16 2004, 10:54PM

Regarding DLs:

Yes, their behaviour is often irresponsible. But consider this.

People often act the way they are expected to act. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If we expect people to be irresponsible, then they are more likely to act accordingly.

I strongly agree with those why say that gay persons should be open. Even so, it must remain a personal choice and some gay men and women do have legitimate reasons not to be open. This is especially true for young persons who are still financially dependent on their parents, which obviously is a temporary problem. But openness is required to change social attitudes so that we will be better accepted.

In communities in which being gay is not accepted, the DL phenomonon will be much more common than in communities in which it is acceptable to be gay.

Lorenzo Britt, Sr.
April 17 2004, 12:02AM

Great topic outlining very clearly "Why men who consider themselves on the DL", remain on the "DL". It proves a theory of "straight" America but, also proves we as a people understand why men of color who practice such acts, will always be on the "DL". Mr. King did not reach me at all. He made excuses for white men while negatively portraying black men. Thank you Phill Wilson for making the point all black gay men were waiting to hear. A negative portrayal of black gay men, by a book marketing King, into a positive and reaching message that clearly opposes unexplained views.

Kevin
April 17 2004, 12:38AM

Well,

I personally think feel that yes DL men are a part of this epidemic rise in HIV/AIDs rate in African-American women, but Keith you are right in saying that this is the most sensationalized part of the picture. Women of color needed to have the self-esteem to tell a guy, "hey put on a condom!" And yes, even though this rise in mainly seen in poor women, poor should not equal ignorant.
You know you really can't fault the media too much because all they are doing is what they know. They know how to put blame on and find problem in and with African-American men.
We need to educate ourselves and promote safe sex in our brothers and sisters, no matter who they are having sex with.

Leon Grant, Jr
April 17 2004, 12:42AM

E. Lynn Harris wrote the forward for JL king's book. I wonder how that plays out?
www.livingdownlow.com

Christy
April 17 2004, 12:46AM

I have to agree with Tom...this was a great article ...very indepth and most of all true.

Leon_Grant, Jr.
April 17 2004, 12:52AM

Also has anyone seen/gotten this email before???

This is very important for everyone to read.

Ladies, please read the following article below!!! We perish for a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!!! The release date for this book is April 2004!!! Pass this email to every SISTER you know!!! Men, this is important for you to tell your daughters, sisters, etc.

This is not a very nice topic to discuss but I feel I need to share this information with my sisters. Last Saturday, Kisha & I went to a seminar where a man named J.L. King was speaking on the subject of "DL Brothers". The "DL" stands for Down Low or Double Lives. Now, what makes this so interesting is that Mr.. King is a DL brother. South Carolina is #8 in the nation for HIV/AIDS new cases. African American women are 80% of all new cases and they are contracting the virus from men who are having sex with other men but they are doing this on the "Down Low". These men say they are not gay...they are heterosexual but just sleep with men once in a while. These are men who work in the church as officers, men who are leaders in the community, men that say they hate those "faggots". Mr.. King shared his life story and said he knows a lot of "DL" brothers in the NBA/NFL and even in the entertainment world and to prove his point: On Thursday, the director of the Tri-County Collaboration for the prevention of HIV/AIDS, Valerie King (no relation) took J.L.to a Charleston Club and introduced him to 5 men she knew. These men were respected men at work and church. Valerie excused herself for about 15-20 minutes. In that time J.L. had gotten 3 of the 5 men's phone numbers to hook up with later. By the end of the evening he also got 10 female numbers. He said the reason he is talking about this is his fear that his grown daughter may run into a "DL" brother and never know.
These men are masters in the art of lying and living that double life. His wife thought it was wonderful that he worked so hard in the church with different men on different projects right up to the time he had to tell her he was HIV positive. This, needless to say, destroyed his family and his marriage. He has 3 grown children who now have to live with the knowledge that their father gave their mother HIV and possibly AIDS. I know of one man in my own church who is a "DL" brother and has AIDS. (Because what you do on the "DL" will come out in the light) J.L. mentions that this is a widespread epidemic here in Charleston.
I went on the web site and looked up several references on HIV/AIDS in the South. The numbers are showing whites are going down but African Americans are going up &up...mostly heterosexual African American women. I have been asking myself all week...what is this world coming to? When is God going to say....this is enough. This is truly the work of the enemy! Ladies, this is also praying time. I have shared this with my youngest daughter too! I'm going to pass this message to as many females I know and I pray you do the same.
Below are some web sites that you may find interesting. Once we understand that HIV/AIDS is not something that is just happening in Africa, that it is preventable, and that we as black women understand the importance of knowledge on the subject then maybe we can make a difference. The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.

me
April 17 2004, 12:55AM

Very good article.

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 1:38AM

I saw the Oprah show today. In fact, I taped it and just finished watching it a few minutes ago. I am of two minds about the show and the whole DL topic. I agree with Keith that this is a oversimplification by the media of a complex problem. *Shockers* I haven't seen any statistical data showing DL men are more responsible for the sky-high HIV rates among black women, than say drug abuse or general unprotected promiscuous behavior. On the other hand, it would be ridiculous to assume that this phenomenon(which is as ancient as the world) isn't having an impact.

I'm disturbed by the general defensiveness of some of the respondents on this site. Some people seem to be more outraged with Oprah than with the men taking part in this behavior. And, I do put the lion's share on these men and not the women they're having sex with. Yes, we all should use protection everytime, but many of these men are in long term relationships or marraiges. If the woman is already on oral contraceptives, why would she assume she has anything to fear from her supposedly 'faithful' husband of 10 years?!!

My major problem with the show was the general hang-up about labels instead of focusing on the behavior. There were so many issues to tackle it just seemed chaotic, hurried and generally confusing. Phil Reed was easily the best guest. He really provided a balanced and reasonable voice amid the sometime sensationalism. I think the most important point made on the show was the unwillingness of many of these DL men to acknowledge their sexual orientation due to the high level of homophobia within the black community. Unfortunately, they didn't touch on the black church.

For all the people pissed off at Oprah and the media in general for sensationalizing this topic, perhaps we should contact Oprah (she's on the web) and suggest she does a follow-up show on the topic of gay sexuality in the Black community. Keith, I can see you on TV already. LOL Much of the problem of black gay invisibility, is our own unwillingness to speak up. We bitch about white gay organizations excluding us, but many of us can't even be open with our own lives and would never dream of showing up to a meeting of one of these GAY organizations.

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 1:38AM

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 1:39AM

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 4:03AM

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 4:08AM

Sorry that I have multiple posts of the same thing. When I tried to post it gave me a multiple error message. By the time it went through, I saw that it had posted numerous times. Sorry, Keith.

DL Man
April 17 2004, 1:25PM

Fuck dem hoes. Now they won't be jock'n me so much. Vamps. Less money dem bitches gonna hit me for.

I thought the show was great. Best point made: "It takes two people to transmit a disease."

Not one woman has ever asked me to wear a condom, but I can't keep them bitches off my dick.

Oprah should quote that.

Dani
April 17 2004, 1:30PM

I personally didn't like JL's representation of the "DL" male. I think his comments on yesterday will cause more undue stress between the relationships of heterosexuals and homosexuals. I do believe that there is no in between in the minds of heterosexuals. Some feel that you are either Gay or Straight, no gray area. :-)

Mike
April 17 2004, 2:34PM

I watched the show with a lot of interest. I felt that there should have been representation of the white men who are doing the same thing and have for years.
I'm a gwm who volunteers for an AIDS organization and I see a lot of swm who are IV drug users being prostitutes to raise money for their drugs and then going home to their women.
The DL is not new, nor is it a black phenomenon.
Although I am unhappy about there being another label (and one that is aimed at blacks)I am happy to see the truth being shown even if someone is making mega bucks by it.
The truth has to come out, we are all sexual and need to be sexually responsible.

Da D.L. Crib
April 17 2004, 3:03PM

I was not very impressed by Mr. King on The Oprah Show. I sensed that he was disingenuous as to his motivations. He claimed he wrote the expose to prevent women such as his daughter from falling prey to people like him, yet it seems that he has not changed his behavior.

He did not want to use the word �dating� guys, which I found curious. Obviously, he is in the denial about his sexuality. The other brothers they interviewed seemed a little more forthright. If you have sexual relations with both men and women, then you are bisexual. To the straight population, that is as good as gay and I can understand why bisexual people may have a conflict and choose not to identify themselves as bisexuals.

Engaging in anonymous sex after you turn thirty habitually would lead one to believe that there is a problem. As one matures physically and socially, one should mature sexually as well. One may have multiple partners with the hope of settling down but if the goal is just to have the thrill of having someone new and not connect on a mental as well as physical level, then that might suggest one has other issues.

As far as contracting STD�s, someone once said that if you are on the market for sex you should use the upper most precautions with your partner and treat them as if they have an STD until you know them. As demonstrated by Mr. King though, they may still lie.

I hope that besides all the hoopla that transpired that the audience heard that this has been going on for a while and is not new. As they explained, what is new is the spike in HIV cases. A theory was hinted at, which I subscribe to, that since HIV is not the immediate death sentence that it once was, people have relaxed and are engaging in risky activities again. What amazes me is that the guys say that they �love� the women they are with but continue to put their loved one at risk by not protecting themselves when they have relations with other people. If this is love I would like to know their definition of not being in love.

cmoney
April 17 2004, 3:30PM

How can these DL men love their women when they don't even love themselves enough to admit who they are? They are whacked, to use a medical term. When they learn to love themselves enough to be honest with who they are and what they do, then and only then, can they really begin to love someone else. Tina Turner once asked: "What's love got to do with it?"
The answer: Everything.

slacky
April 17 2004, 3:34PM

The Oprah episode SUCKED! It was a waste of time. I too, was pissed that no real discussion was brought up about how homophobic the Black Church & a good portion of Afro/Caribbean people are. That is why these guys are on the DL. The pressure to be "straight" when you are not is what is killing blacks. If there wasn't such a stigma for being attracted to the same sex, most of these DL brothas would really be SGL brothas. The typical view of the snap dragon, highly fem gay guys is all you see on T.V and movies. I hate it for the unbalance. Theses types do exist, but until society reflects the diversity of gay people, many Brothas will never embrase being "gay." JL King was whack!I would never read his book. DL men are just punks that conform to family & social pressures. The women in their lives are just COVER GIRLS and I don't mean the cosmetic. Who you choose to be gratified by, reflects your orientation in my opinion.Don't most do the experimental thing during puberty years? Come on now, let's be true to ourselves.

Detroit Rob
April 17 2004, 3:48PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I too saw the Oprah Show! I was shocked when Oprah said at the beginning of the show that the DL men are the reason why black women are getting HIV in record numbers! That was truely PRESUMPTUOUS and IRRESPONDSIBLE on her behalf!!
HIV has always been associated with gay men wether they were black or white! Yes it started with the gay white male and spread. People link it's origin to UNPROTECTED ANAL SEX. Well men and women have been doing that with each other for CENTURIES!!! Where was HIV then? ANAL SEX is nothing NEW with STRAIGHT PEOPLE or GAY MEN! HIV reared it's ugly head in 1980!! Why then?
Bisexual and DL men have been around for centuries, especailly in EUROPEAN COUNTRIES!! It doesn't matter what they called it was the same thing, cheating on your wife or girlfriend with another man, yet you are living a presumbaly straight life! Why wasn't HIV spreading then?
I don't believe every CONSPIRACY THEORY I read or here about, but some of them you just can't ignore!! Especially when it's about your community! People seem to have forgotten about THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT!! THEY PURPOSELY INFECTED BLACK MEN WITH SYPHILIS AND SENT THEM HOME TO THEIR WIVES AND GIRLFRIENDS NOT KNOWING WHAT BEEN DONE TO THEM AND THEY WERE NEVER TREATED FOR THE DECEASE AND OF COURSE IT SPREAD AT A RAPID RATE!!!! AND THAT WAS DONE BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT, HOSPITALS and DOCTORS!!!
Well, whose to say that these same RACIST, INHUMANE PEOPLE, wouldn't try something else on a LARGER, more DEVASTING, yet EFFECTIVE SCALE!! It worked the first time why wouldn't work in the late 70's, 80's or 90's. WE had more UNITY in our community in the 20's 30's 40's and 60's then we ever had!!!! They could have injected those 400 men in Tuskegee with HIV then and they would have never known it and or course it would have spread at a rapid rate because we only make 12-13% of the UNITED STATES POPULUS and any cumulative deceases spread at a much faster rate in a minority poor poplation because they would tend to stay inside there own SEXUAL NETWORK!!! NOW who hates INTERACAIL RELATIONSHIPS MORE WHITES or BLACKS!! Some of them probaly already know what happen to us "and that's why" they move as far from our people as they can get!!
Back to the DL issue and HIV in black women! Well, I'm sorry but the world we live in has changed. There are just as many women sleeping around as men and some of them are married with children too!! SEX PROMISCUITY AND UNPROTECTED SEX is the main reason for the on going spreading of that MAN MADE VIRUS!! I'm not excusing the DL behavior and it's contributing factors no more, than I'm excusing black women who sleep around and cheat on their husbands and boyfriends or any man or woman that would cheat on on their spouse or partner in life!!
The best way to conquer is to divid and turn people against each other while the real CULPRIT and VILLAIN gets away with MURDER and GENOSIDE in the first degree!!!!
The DL men is found NOT GUILTY of mass spreading of HIV to black women for lack of evidence!!! Court and the DL issue is AJOURNED.

Larry
April 17 2004, 4:35PM

"i have never been a fan of oprah
because she has more power than anyone else in america because mainstream white america adores her and actually listens to her and yet
she has never had anything real to say"

----Alicia

Apparently you were not watching when she devoted her theme for an entire year to racism in America?

Laura
April 17 2004, 5:56PM

"Bisexual and DL men have been around for centuries, especailly in EUROPEAN COUNTRIES!!"

...and Middle Eastern countries and Latin American countries and China and India and...

AZAAN
April 18 2004, 12:18AM

I watched the Oprah show last night. I think the main thing that should have been voiced is why these men are on the DL. Black Americas generational ignorance and homphobia should have discussed. This is the sole reason they are on the DL!

jaymillionaire
April 18 2004, 12:51AM

Sorry folks, The Oprah Show only last one hour. I know you want every philisophical reason why, what, where, how the DL man operates, but thats not going to happen on a talk show.

Oprah accomplished substantial goal, black women everywhere are now asking their mates to take HIV test (my mom said it was the topic of discussion at work).

I am appalled at the vast denial spread across this website. AIDS in the black community is a HEALTH EMERGENCY.

AGAIN.

AIDS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS A HEALTH EMERGENCY.

Black women are 23 times more likely than white women to become infected with HIV (and its not because of the damn needles). For the people on the site to bash Oprah and Mr. King (making his money the same way Keith makes his) for shedding a light on the AIDS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY AS A HEALTH ISSUE is as ignorant as the pulpit clowns as we despise so much.

Let me explain why Keith is criticizing Oprah: He wants the attention placed on black couples who are getting registered at the local Macy's. But Keith let me ask you this:

What is the ratio between black same sex couples, and black women contracting HIV from DL men? The issue is not how many black male same sex long term relationships there are. THAT IS NOT A HEALTH EMERGENCY. The point is we (as black men) are in a unabashadely selfish-sexual- perverse- trance where anything goes including unsafe sex, lying, cheating and pimping. If you don't believe me:

Watch a rap video.

Marlon
April 18 2004, 10:17AM

Watch Oprah�s �After The Show�, she and her audience are still trying to define DL. A female told King he�s in denial because same sex activity repeatedly--not once or twice--is Gay. King didn�t respond, andKing (an HIV activist) should�ve been better prepared; he caused frenzy over semantics. When educating adults on gay issues ---YA GOTTA SIMPLIFY. In comparison, try understanding an Asian-European subculture, when the majority of us couldn�t care less, eat Asian occasionally, and familiar watching Connie Chong.

Therefore, Bottom line�this is what your average Joe will generalize after Oprah: (don�t forget Oprah is viewed in 106+ international markets)
All black men are gay.
All black gay men have AIDS.
All black men are responsible for women contracting AIDS.

If you think your average fellow human doesn�t generalize and utilizes critical thinking�You�re Wrong! Internationally is more complicated�some folk abroad only witness of the African American is from MTV.

Kwei
April 18 2004, 10:35AM

If enough of us contact Oprah, I'm sure her producers might consider a counterpoint to what was shown today. I'm sure if she did a show pissing off the church, they wouldn't have any problem making their voices heard. Furthermore, if we think Oprah and the other voices are ignorant of this subject, how will they know any differently, if we don't correct their misinformation?!
Posted by: Phoenix at April 17, 2004 01:38 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I AGREE WITH PHOENIX. THE SHOW WAS CHAOTIC AND CONFUSING AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHILL WILSON WHO WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO SPOKE CLEARLY AND WISELY, EVERYTHING ELSE SEEMED DESIGNED JUST TO SHOCK PEOPLE AND SENSATIONALIZE. AND NOW THE CLAIM THAT WHITE MEN ARE COMING INTO THE BLACK COMMUNITY FOR UNPROTECTED SEX AND EVENTUALLY WILL TAKE HIV BACK TO THEIR WHITE WIVES? MY GOD, THAT SEEMED LIKE SUCH A BLATANT ATTEMPT TO GET WHITE WOMEN TO BUY THE BOOK I WAS LITERALLY SHOCKED. THE PROGRAM WAS A HORRIBLE MESS. IT ATTEMPTED TO DEAL WITH SO MUCH IN UNDER ONE HOUR AND LEFT THINGS MUDDY AND BEWILDERING. WE REALLY NEED TO CONTACT OPRAH AND WE NEED A FOLLOW-UP SHOW WITH DR. ANTHONY FAUCI OF THE CDC, KEITH BOYKIN AND PHILL WILSON. I AM NOT SAYING DL IS NOT A PROBLEM, BUT THAT THE WAY IT WAS DEALT WITH ON OPRAH WAS TOO MUCH OF A MARKETING TOOL FOR THE BOOK WITH SUPERFICIAL AND SOMETIMES IRRESPONSIBLE TREATMENT OF THE PROBLEM.

Marlon
April 18 2004, 10:44AM

JayMill�LOL!
I don�t know Keith personally, but on this Webboard he�s a facilitator�not an indoctrinator. There are strong critical thinkers on this Webboard.

JayMill�YES�It is a health emergency. Did you see DL Man�s post, �Not one woman has ever asked me to wear a condom, but I can't keep them bitches off my dick.�

Thanks for the honesty DL Man!
I�m not surprised. Too many women think ElynnHarris DL character behaviors are fictitious. Unfortunately, attracting and keeping a �good Man� is so tuff that DL, gay, STD, HIV, ect.. issues become secondary. We all know women who are Desperate for a �good man,� but will settle for �a man.�
JayMill�LOL!

Kwei�-thanks for screaming at us�-my letter is in progress.:-)

Larry
April 18 2004, 11:30AM

Although I agree with Jaymill that there is a definite health emergency in the black community, I agree with most of the posters here on how the issue was handled.

It is never just enough to "blow the whistle" if the dialogue is going to be irresponsible and sensational as has been pointed out numerous times.

My major problems with the show were that:

1)The issue of brothers with wives and girlfriends having sex in prison and bringing HIV home was NEVER truly discussed.

- There is a gargantuan number of imprisoned brothers
- Prisons won't give out condoms b/c they say they do not want to promote sex
- What they are in denial about is the fact that sex needs no promotion, and like eating, breathing, and using the bathroom will happen as long as two people with a mutual sexual attraction (or on person with an attraction and enough power over the 2nd) are in contact

What are the demographics of the str8 women getting the most HIV cases? I would gamble that the numbers are the highest in low income, inner city and rural areas---areas that also have the lions share of brothers who are in and out of the jail and prison system.

Homosexual/DL/bisexual brothers are existent in ALL demographics. If they are truly the primary cause of the problem then women of ALL demographics should be getting the virus equally

2) I wanted to jump on stage and bust J.L. in his shit and knock his whole grill out when he started talk about white boys coming to the hood for black dick

A) Most black men that deal with white boys are oreo/uncle tom blacks that don't deal with black men

B) Was it not the WHITE gay community that got this whole party started in the first place, and now magically BLACKS are at fault for their unsuspecting wives and girlfriends being infected??? NIGGA PLEASE.

C) Last I checked, the grossest and most "out there" sexual behaviors (beastiality, bare-back sex rings, fisting, etc.) are still the domains of white people. Not that there aren't any black people into these things.......but by and large most bruthas I know are pretty much into good old fashion fuckin......not dogs and leather and brothels.

I'm going to Oprah's site right now to request a follow up........I hope other gay brothers and sisters will do the same.

Larry
April 18 2004, 11:42AM

.......... 'scuse me ya'll.......this issue done hit a damn nerve and I got somehtin else to say...

Gay people are only a certain percentage of the population. Experts say around 10% (never proven but lets just flow with it).

Last I checked, part of the definition of being gay was not being sexually attracted to women. I know a LOT of men who front like they are "bisexual" etc. but in REALITY they ain't had pussy since pussy had them. Then there are the ones who actually attempt it but have sexual dysfunction problems.

The group that is left over, those who may TRULY be bisexual (IMO like 5% of the people who claim to be) and successfully have not only sex but UNPROTECTED sex with both groups......they are not a big enough population to cause this kind of an epidemic.....especially when the women are not passing the disease to each other...the cycle ends with them. A epidemics don't come from populations that small in that kind of a close circuit. You need a larger group.

Hence the arrow is pointed again to brothers who are incarcerated. They get plenty of dick and booty while locked up, then get to come out and have free access to women like nothing happened.

And if my hypothesis is correct about the types of demographics (beyond just race) that the numbers are probably the highest end, these will be women with less access to healthcare, treatment, and education regarding their wellbeing.......as well as more than likely having less self worth on the average and more allowing brothas to "do whateva" (e.g. no condom sex-----case in point, the alarming teen pregnancy rates in these same demographic grups).

Kwei
April 18 2004, 12:07PM

Larry - I think you are bringing up a very very important point on this issue of incarcerated black males. There is a staggering population of imprisoned BM, and you are right that this crazy, racist prison-industrial complex is a breeding ground for HIV, especially in the regard of not providing protection for inmates. This is something I'm going to look into as well, because we may be missing a big piece of the puzzle. Very good thinking, Larry. Man, this is getting complicated!

Kwei
April 18 2004, 12:10PM

I wanted to jump on stage and bust J.L. in his shit and knock his whole grill out when he started talk about white boys coming to the hood for black dick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I gotta agree with you there - that was so disingenuous and an obvious scare tactic. I thought it was shameful and embarrassing

DB
April 18 2004, 4:00PM

Keith, this article was on point. I would like to note that it's shows and articles of negativity that keep so many bisexual men in the closet. Where is the love? It saddens me that Oprah would not make this show more positive, but it's over and done now. It will be interesting to see how this topic rears its head again in the future. Keep up the good work!

Leo Wilton, Ph.D.
April 18 2004, 4:58PM

Right on point Keith. Clearly, this focus on Black men is about structural levels of violence that Black men experience on a routine basis.

Perhaps, it may be more interesting for White people (and people of color too) who like sensation to conduct some research on why White heterosexual men, who are "protected" by their privileges, expose young men of color (who engage in commercial sex work) to sexually transmitted infections including HIV.

Research demonstrates that young Black and Latino MSM who engage in "surival sex" or commercial sex work get paid more money to engage in unprotected sex. That's a crime. Take a tour down Christopher Street and just count how many White men in business suits engage with young Black and Latino men in terms of commercial sex work.

Let's be clear: There's no focus on the role of structural forms of violence that Black men experience on multiple levels (i.e. institutionalized racism, homophobia, AIDS-phobia, poverty). Historically, it has always been more convenient to pathologize Black people's behavior (i.e. biological determinism, cultural deprivation, etc.). Just check out the Moynihan Report from the 1960s.

Above all, what I call for is a paradigm shift that moves the focus from individals to the structural forces that have an impact in Black people's lives. Perhaps, that is more threatening for the status quo.

Leo Wilton, Ph.D.

ML
April 18 2004, 5:27PM

We have all forgotten two things: bisexuality is actually a natural human inclination. The fact that more black men are experiencing it is actually a good thing. The fact that we are doing so in a careless manner is not. I too know DL brothas but don't know them to be practicers of unsafe sex. In addition, I don't know them to be positive. I think the problem may have more to do with black women's promiscuity. I know several several sistahs--whether they are in relationships or not--who commonly get it on with brothas they don't know because they have big dicks or some other physical feature that their mate lacks. Sistahs are creepin' big time! Its real yall.

jaymillionaire
April 18 2004, 5:47PM

"Where is the love? It saddens me that Oprah would not make this show more positive, but it's over and done now."

--DB

How can you spin skyrocketing HIV infection rates of unsuspecting black women into something positive? The only positive to come out of the show is the spousal communication which came from it.

ATTENTION BLACK MEN:

I know this is a bitter pill to swallow(especially for those of us who are out and educated), however we must face facts before we face our doom (ie ethnic cleansing, genocide)AIDS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS A HEALTH EMERGENCY (NOT A HEALTH PROBLEM).

Forget about writing letters to Oprah, and start writing letters to your boy-toys' wife(wives)!

Kabanga
April 18 2004, 7:07PM

Hi CMoney,

" Kabanga's observation about the effect of incarceration on the spread of HIV is on point. Many of these so-called DL brothers were infected in jail by having sex with another man. Most, if not all prisons, refuse to provide condoms to the inmates since, in their opinion, they don't want to encourage sex. "

Thanks. On top of that, they can't even keep drugs out of prison.

But to get back to the Avert.org website, at http://www.avert.org/usastatr.htm

They list AIDS cases and exposure by race and origin of infection.

White Male (% of total)

Gay Sex 237,610 (73.5%)
IV Drug use 30,247 (9.3%)
Gay Sex + IV drug use 27,264 (8.4%
Straight 6,521 (2.0%)
Total 323,015 (100.0%)

Black Male (% of total)

Gay Sex 88,130 (36.7%)
IV Drug use 77,577 (32.3%)
Gay Sex + IV drug use 17,824 (7.4%)
Straight 21,706 (9.0%)
Total 239,888 (100.0%)

Note that the percentage of men with AIDS who were infected through IV drug use and white were only 9.3% of the total, but for black men it was 32.3%. Well over three times the percentage - and that's where intervention has to be focused.

Detroit Rob
April 18 2004, 7:55PM

Larry, CMoney, Marlon, and Koola Boof, you all are right on point! Marlon I especially like what you said about people GENERALIZING all BLACKMEN now! That was one of my main concerns! As a black man we already have enough HURLDES, STIGMAS, STEREOTYPES, and GENERALIZATIONS to overcome, now we have yet another!! Like you said Larry this shit has been around in the white community for a long time where was the media hype then! In support to what CMONEY said, black women can be just as promiscous as men and they can pass the virus to unsuppecting men!! Hell we can get other STD's from women why can't we get HIV from them too. Cheating is cheating and anyone can spread infectious deceases to anyone! Ladies please this isn't an attack on your virtue but I'm sure you know some women out there that sleep around!! I wonder how much HIV was spreaded during the FREAK NICK days in ATL over the years!!!
Please don't anyone evere forget about the TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT!! There is a whole lot more to HIV than we all know!

Detroit Rob
April 18 2004, 10:23PM

About JL, he is a brother that is truely confused! When I watched the after show the audience sounded more informed than he did. Oprah changed her begining statement from "this is the reason why so many black women are getting HIV". To "this is one of the reasons why black women are getting HIV".
JL King is a gay black man that should have stayed single until he found himself! He said that all of his sexual conquest was with men. But he said he wasn't gay and neither was the rest of DL MEN. Well to me that makes him gay as HELL! He could have had sex with a easy woman. I wonder if he didn't get caught by his wife would he had came clean on his own! I don't think so!
I think his wife is behind this crusade to educate and save her black sister's from "The "EVIL DL BROTHER". She has every right to be angry and devasted about someone she thought was true! But let us remember what they say about a woman scroned! She made him the messenger because he was the culprit! But some of the things being said are truely unfair to blackmen! Not all brothers get down like that! Not even the majority of them do! Now BROTHERS across America are going to be GENERALIZED by this because these men don't fit into the typical role of being gay! Women sleep around too. They spread STD"S too. They all aren't victims of the "DL BROTHER SYNDROM" Some of them are guilty of infecting some blackmen! But that's not being addressed on any of the talk shows that I saw!Or is it being addressed by the CDC! SEXUAL PRMISCUITY on the behalf of both men and women isn't really being addressed. She's angry and she's using him to crucify all black men for his own BETRAYTAL to their family!! She probaly threaten a civil suit against him! If she did she would have won becuase he exposed her to the possiblity HIV! A lot of the things he's talking about sounds like there coming straight from a angry woman. He isn't very well informed either I was truely disappointed. Because his only focos his the black man and not the black woman and her own respondsiblity to HIV infection rates in our community, wether there are DL BROTHERS in the world or not! And not all of the DL BROTHERS are HIV+! AND YES YOU CAN BE ON THE DL AND NOT HAVE SEX WITH MEN. Being on the DOWN LOW means just keeping it to your self and not leting the rest of the world know your business. That could be a man and a woman keeping their relationship a secret for what ever reason or two none promiscous closeted gay people keeping their relationship a secret! The term isn't new nor is it exculsive to men who cheat on women with other men!

cmoney
April 18 2004, 10:28PM

I am glad that everyone is thinking about this subject. Is this a "teachable moment" as they say in education circles? How do we move from thoughts to taking action to stop this killer phenomenon?
Do we all go out, pick up DL, rough trade and turn that quickie sex session into a safe sex workshop? Doesn't sound too romantic and I, like many, don't want to be bothered with the confused types. How do you sneak this topic into casual conversation with straight women? As trifling as Oprah's show was, at least she has people talking. It's a start, but man, we have our work cut out for us.
Any suggestions?

stuckinthesouth
April 18 2004, 11:01PM

Although I think that the medias intentions do not match those of Mr.King (originally), I noticed the co-author E. Lynn Harris has written some very positive fiction about bisexual relations. However, in my agreement with you, this coverage will do nothing more than encourage straight married black women to futher advance a social hate and isolation of gay men in their circles. I hear new urban and suburban tales coming from this story. Thanks Oprah for your slighted coverage on this subject.. Makes me wonder if you and Dr. Phil are engaged? When will we be able to throw the rice? Have a steak on me... BTY its not all about color... I am white and have many black male straight friends..... married and single...( just a note for the ones that like to read lables..)

TK 2000
April 18 2004, 11:08PM

Words cannot express how much I appreciate all the comments made in this article and on this message board. I am now a Christian, but was not "born" and "raised" in the church. I have been involved in risky activities as a heterosexual female, where any punishment I could have received would've been entirely my fault. I feel that sexuality (gay or straight), as well as other issues, are not clearly addressed in today's church. People can be told all day that they need to pray, to read their Bible more or to deny their desires, but the Black church needs to go back to its roots and address the needs of the community. Only then will people take ownership of what happens to their health and how they can help somebody else get informed.
I also feel compelled to apologize for every Christian who has ever acted with hate or worse, indifference, toward the pain of the gay/bisexual Black man. As a people, time is long overdue for us to be unified, and responsibly seek solutions that will end the spread of STDs, homophobia and anything else that would hinder our growth and progress in the community and world at large.

With love...to all people who bleed when pricked.

TK 2000
April 18 2004, 11:08PM

With love...to all people who bleed when pricked.

FRE
April 18 2004, 11:33PM

TK 2000, you stated, "I also feel compelled to apologize for every Christian who has ever acted with hate or worse, indifference, toward the pain of the gay/bisexual Black man."

Do you think that only black men have suffered pain because of actions by some Christians? What about red, yellow, brown, and white men?

I assume that the oversight was not intended.

Troy
April 19 2004, 8:59AM

Damn, 83 and more messages to come! Wow!
A zillion emails on this show! WOw!
Must be something to it...hmmm...must be somebody wants to finally come out and tell some truths for a change; THE DEAD HAS ARISEN?
Uh oh! Looky here, the porn industry has been struck by an HIV/AIDS scare quarantine???
Well, well, well, I'd say the time to really start paying the piper is today, long overdue!
Solution; Education, protection, communication.
If you're not doing all three the gig is up whether you are gay straight DL or inbetween.
From the looks of these postings and the gabillion emails I got on this looks like J.L. King's book is a bestseller. Wonder if we need a actual movie of this one?

I Wonder if an actual step toward HIV prevention cure and change for better will happen...Wonder if any proceeds from J.L. King's book will help the very same victims of the psuedo D.L.-ism will get any benefit out of it? Or was it all about a dollar again??

aquafemme2003
April 19 2004, 9:37AM

Kudos for addressing this. I find it nothing short of mindboggling that America is so fascinated with the DL. Straight people can really be funny...they're like white folk with a new word or a dance. Just discovering "The snake" in 1998 and shit. But anyway, I think that this is just the latest, greatest form of homophobia- just another attempt to make it a gay men's disease. Clearly, if these women were asking men to put on condoms, who they just had sex with would not be such a literally life or death issue. That's the bottom line and it's time we start facing that fact. As a feminist-oriented woman, I know it is an unpopular statement but I'm going to make it: women need to hold the brunt of the responsibility for their own sexual protection. At the end of the day, at the very least, heterosexual women are going to be the one's knocked up. They're going to be the one's struggling to feed themself and a baby on a minimal salary. And they're going to be the statistics. So please, use a damned condom! Let me also say, that I think this is being vaunted as the secret cause of AIDS because people want to think it's an abnormal disease that happens to "abnormal" people. They don't want to believe that straight sex can cause it. Well believe it. Frankly, when I see a pregnant woman sometimes I think "damn, I hope she had an HIV test". Just being real.

Doctor
April 19 2004, 11:20AM

Here are a few misconceptions about the DL.

1. All men on the DL have wives or girlfriends.

Some of them will lie to another man about having a wife or girlfriend because that's what another DL man maybe looking for at the time.

2. Many men on the DL are closeted bisexuals.

Some men on the DL are closeted gay men that are afraid to come out, and they might even go from girlfriend to girlfriend NOT HAVING SEX but just simply using them for a smoke screen and when the issue of sex arises, they just cut the women lose, and their friends and family simply think that they're PLAYERS!

3. All men on the DL are men with wives or girlfriends and are promiscous with other men.

Some of these men are not looking for casual sex some of them find a partner that they can be monogamous with and just keep their relationship private, whether they have a woman in their life at the time or not.

4. Finally DL men don't use protection!

Some DL men use protection on a regular basis, even if they are promiscous and go to what is called a SAFE SEX DL PARTY!

J
April 19 2004, 11:24AM

Keith,

Although raise some valid points, it's important for you to realize that black women are still staggering from this whole issue. Always remember there are no victims in life. Ur absolute correct when u say people have to protect themselves. But when someone is outright deceptive and is engaging in high risk sexual behaviour their severe consequences. I am a straight black male and this information is very shocking to me. Yes Oprah could have done more to help us understand a group of phonies but first things first. And that's to make this so-called new phenomenon known. People must own up to who they are and at least protect themselves.

Regan DuCasse
April 19 2004, 11:46AM

About twelve years ago I was a hotline volunteer for AIDS Project LA-I was concerned about the rise of infection in the black population...period. Once Magic Johnson disclosed his HIV, our phones exploded. Johnson went on a campaign about awareness and prevention of the disease and still models for protease inhibitor ads.
There was a lot missing. Like how many other people HE infected and who are now dead.
He could have killed his wife and first born son. Little was said about the risk he put them in.
The down low focus is trying to highlight that gay black life is dangerous unto itself and ignores that most of the problem is the stigma of being gay...and less stigma on being PROMISCUOUS, whether you're gay or not.
Pop culture is ALL about gettin' some and from multiple partners and monogamy is treated like the problem.
Most black young people don't even TRY to opt for marriage before children.
Marriage licensing is STILL precluded by a blood test for disease.
I had to argue with a brother on the hotline that a condom was his only hope if he wanted to avoid HIV.
I told him that sex without a condom was like riding in a car without a seatbelt.
Shit will happen, so why heighten the odds when you don't have to? He was really, really, really wanting me to give him permission to have sex without protection.
I shouldn't have had to beg HIM to do the right thing!
The unfortunate thing is that he was typical. The sad average.
And the price is the loss of young and vital people and risk to their children from disease and the orphanage.
It's inexcusable to NOT prevent what could so easily be prevented!

D from the Uk
April 19 2004, 12:50PM

To each person that expressed an opinion thank you. I took all of the views on-board before mailing and feel I gained a greater perspective on the issues surrounding DL Black men. I did not see the show but the concept of the DL Brother is something I often think about. For example, what exactly constitutes being on the DL?

I'm a 23yr old black male who to the greater population blends in with heterosexual men and I'm not open with everyone I meet. At present I am still finding myself preference-wise. The label 'DL' is not a compliment nor is the term 'gay' in Black culture. In fact to a straight Black man it seems to be the worst insult he could be given. Almost emasculating, that's kind of what the word means to me. I date and have slept with and have loved both sexes and I've recently admitted to myself that I probably will always feel like this. I've told my Mom and my four best friends but I have not come out and defined myself to everybody and their mama. Also, when explaining my situation to my people, I did not say that I was Gay or Straight or Bi-sexual. I said I had an un-fixed sexual preference, and that my sexuality was where I sat within my preference. If we're here to keep it real then that's the truth I'm not gonna lie to ya! I feel though my reluctance to define myself by cliched terms are for the same reasons DL Black men do not identify themselves as gay. I know what I am but what would YOU say that makes me, am I DL to u?

The Black community on a whole does not support, condone nor empathise with same-sex attraction or Love. Gay people don't believe Bi-sexuals are tellin the truth. And that's the concern. When I was at an earlier stage in my journey it dawned on me that to openly define myself as Gay meant divorcing myself from everything I loved and felt a part of about the Black community. And also, why are people so perplexed by the self loathing this kind of brother might feel? This kind of brother remains a part of the community that hates him. What is he to do? Take exile from who is as a person simply because he (occasionally) loves men? This man is 'Black' before he is any other label. There is nowhere for this kind of brother to turn except inside himself. That is where the self-analysis stems from and the self-hatred begins. And this hate isn't a pre-determinate, this hate is brewed and cultivated by the faces we identify as our own, Black faces.

Let's start a fresh. There is much power in words and for a young, masculine, black man who is capable of loving another man, for one I don't identify with the labels we're given to choose from. To the uninformed I'm in the middle, yet to identify with the term 'Bi-sexual' creates the impression that I would sleep with anything. I know I love and respect women as a gender and indeed I have loved a woman deeply in a past relationship. Why is it that the general consensus of this site assumes someone like me is in denial? Who says I have to make a choice as long as I conduct my relationships one at a time? If DL men are in denial, how do they get it up for their female partner(s) in the first place?

Culpability for the spread of HIV and AIDS cannot be relegated to DL Black men. Safe sex should be a gender-less, colour-less, universal concern for all as AIDS is a HUMAN affliction that unlike society does not discriminate. Damn, if you bleed let me tell you you're at risk bt then we know that...don't we? My guess is as Black people we don't. Blame a lack of resources and education but I have lost count of the amount of straight men, especially though not exclusively, Black men who will unabashedly lay culpability with gay people for the creation and spread of AIDS but think nothing of sleeping with 3-4 women outside of their marriages/relationships, unprotected, dropping babies here, there and everywhere. Human beings are capable of carrying AIDS regardless of their sexual leaning, and I really feel there is a lack of education in the Black community as to how best to protect themselves against STD in general.

To basically make my feelings clear, I'm honest and safe with every man and woman [I have sex with] but I think until Black culture stops burying it's head in the sand, regarding Same-sex Sex and Relationships as having no place in Black culture, DL behaviour will continue to be de rigeur for this kind of man. Sexuality is a complex issue that talk of sexual preference barely skirts. What is lacking is talk and truth of what it truly means to be be Black, Male and Gay. That it really is no different to being Black, Male and Straight except for the fact that you're bedding down with your own. In the meantime we need to focus our attentions on the new generation of young people Gay, Straight or otherwise educating them on safe-sex, relationships, sexual preference, spiritually (as opposed to religion) and love and self-love (as opposed to marriage). The climate I envision that approach creating is the only environment I can ever envisage a DL brother foremost loving himself and his community loving him back.

Let me know if you agree with me on this.

William Gordon Jr
April 19 2004, 12:59PM

Please look at the statistics, and then you will see that since the late 1990's the greatest source of infection for women was rooted in being injection drug users, partners of injection drug users, or in a sexual network in which injection drug use occurs. Also, much work hasn't been done in this realm, but if men solicit sex workers and have a particular one, the longer they relate the less likely they are to use a condom. This is the case although sex workers tend to be quite diligent about using protection, until that relationship alters. Also, women and men on the whole seem to like to defer disease on others, especially when they are in long term relationships (including marriage). HIV is still falaciously considered a disease of promiscuity. The thing is promiscuity is about perspective (I am monogamous, therefore my partner must be too). The stats on the IV drug using population of black men should be the clue, and add to that the tons of unprotected sex (consensual or not) that occurs in prison, and the dl men really become a drop in the bucket compared to the other stats.

Lex have safe Sex
April 19 2004, 1:12PM

The entire idea just baffles me that someone can see it as being okay to participate in such a deviant, manipulative, reckless, and selfish behavior. The term consensual sex simply means to knowingly and willfully part taking in sexual activity. But I see nothing consensual about living on the DL. If you want to sleep with men , FINE, leave me and all the other woman like me all(do not want to be in a relationship with a man having or have had sex with other men) alone. We should be inform of such activities whether we engaged in "safe" sex or not is irrelavant. If I am not mistaken the only 100% "safe" sex is no sex at all. In this day and age, no matter what your sexual orientation, you can not play Russian Roulette with your life or unknowingly other people's lives like that. When someone else's sexual preference violate my right of choice : to either participate and heed precation or just steer far away from it, I consider that to be really LOWDOWN. I have three sons to raise and it would be devastating to lose my life because some man was confused or in denial about himself because my boys have no one but me. And whoever it was trying to blame women for not protecting themselves really does not have anything to do with it. Whatever you do, are doing, or have done should be told to each prospective partner so they may have a choice in the matter. Think about it, you may be a father some day or you may be a father now would you want your children living in a world with the type of odds you're dishing out by living on the DL. To me it just equals a total lack of respect for self and/or others to violate that kind of trust. It's just attempted homicide, or shall I say genocide. Think about that DL Brothers.

Troy
April 19 2004, 1:22PM

The real title of his book should of been "Good Gossip with My Homegirl, ---Shhh!"

Aint nothing new or shocking about this except now there's AIDS and HIV to get, along with all the other sexually transmitted diseases being and have been passed around for as long as time began.

Nobody wants to tell the truth that's the real problem and so here we are still arguing and blaming everything and everyone except our own damn selves.

Who we going to blame when's there no one here left....what happens then?

carl68
April 19 2004, 1:27PM

The dialogue is all to important ... I have been "out" since college, but know many who are still "in" (with girlfreinds, etc.) ... It's frustrating to say the least, but I made a decision not to involve women in that chrarade unless they wanted to be involved ...

I like guys like myself: attractive, masculine, professional, in shape, discreet, etc ... and unfortunately many guys I meet are unaccesable or unattainable cause they live in the sr8t setting and only want "part-time" fun ...

It drives me nuts when I meet someone and they later tell me "oh yeah, I got a girl" ... It's tough for brothers living an honest life who are looking for real truth and committment to find most of the guys inhabiting their social circles are living double lives ...

It's crazy but last year alone I met 4 guys who were in relationships with women ... It boggles my mind how they continue to do it ... It would make me an absolutely schizoid ... sometimes I don't get so uptight about being alone cause I think of all the clueless women and pain that these brothas are feeling inside ... THIS IS NOT FUN FOR ANYONE INVOLVED

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 1:50PM

Carl,

Your post is absolutely terrifying and numbing for a straight whore like me.

But what about all the STRAIGHT MEN in the black community who are fed on a diet of "Hip Hop Machismo" MUSIC VIDEOS 24/7 that basically say...."you're not a man unless you're doing 10 girls a week". Straight PLAYAS are Big Whores!!!

I truly believe that promiscuity is rampant in the black community. I truly believe that if we Deduct the GAY men/Gay Sex ratio...we still have a problem of men sticking their dong any and everywhere and then misleading the "girlfriend" or "wife" and transmitting all these germ cultures.

I don't believe in the DL. I'm a straight woman and I really don't.

I think this is a scapegoat issue being created to put a Scarlett Letter on black gay men...because 1) Black church doesn't want to welcome a new gay liberation in the Black Community that has been on the rise for more than a decade.....2) White Race needs to make their White Daughters think twice about sleeping with ANY black man--so lets make them all "gay" fuck bunnies with AIDS....3)Black women need to be stigmatized FURTHER...so that their BLACK wombs (which produce black males) are not as desirable and continue to DROP in the birth rates department. The LATINO nation is growing by leaps and bounds...but this helps to promote the slowing and dirtying of the Black population.

I just don't buy this DL bullshit.

There have always been a huge amount of black men AND WOMEN who are gay (or just freaky--because our culture is one where sexual molestation is rampant, out of control and ALLOWED--which produces freaks, who can be "mistaken" for gay). True Gay People and the Imitation Freaks are now being highlighted and branded GAY to serve many prejudice purposes.

Anyway, I have to go grocery shopping now.

Kola

Imdaman
April 19 2004, 5:26PM

LETS PUSH IT TO 200!

Question: What is your city's crudding haven of DL Slutdom?

Los Angeles--Centinela Park

David
April 19 2004, 5:50PM

D from UK,

I disagree with you because you make one eggregious assumption. Precisely, you assume that Black and Gay are mutually exclusive identities. While I understand that there are truly bisexual people, I must say that if reject the "GAY" identity solely because being gay is frowned at in your black community, then you may have more problems than you think you do. I must also remind you the label bisexual is not equivalent to omnisexual, so watch your vocab. Bisexual indicates a dual sexual preference: in typical contexts, a taste for both men and women.

However, you do raise an interesting point. Clearly the construction/deconstruction of the "gay" identity is a germane issue. Is every man that sleeps with another man gay? Or is everyone bisexual?

These are questions that still puzzle me. Let's hope the queer theorists come up with answers soon. I think it's unfair to ask every same-gender-loving person to identity as "gay" or even "bisexual".

Stan
April 19 2004, 6:12PM

A brotha I know is about to get married and he's been w/ guys for the last 5 years. He didn't come out (being w/ a man) until he is 35 years old. When we first met he said he felt like crazy and repressed all these years b/c all the desires he has for men. Now he felt like he is old and he can't find a good man to settle down with so he just wants to settle down with a woman. He admitted he still has trouble not looking at cute guys sometimes but thinks he'll stay faithful. He said his fiance doesn't know about his being w/ men. I don't know what to tell him; anyone has suggestions?

Marlon
April 19 2004, 6:45PM

If you haven�t drafted or submitted a letter to Oprah, please feel free to slice, dice, or snip the below letter or cut and paste the entire thang for your use. Many of us have busy schedules, procrastinate, or talk and no action, so I wish to abet your efforts. I think it�s crucial we lobby for a follow-up show for our benefit. Note: Oprah word limit is 2000.

IMPORTANT: Oprah requires some personal info before submitting; therefore, if you desire to take part, but a bit �reluctant� to come out with your address and such, please send me a name( whatever name�first and last) and I�ll be happy to submit the below letter( or send me your own letter) in your name with my personal info. OK! Send your name to mbray@gay.com
Warning: I will edit for brevity and profanity!

Greeting Ms. Winfrey:
Friday�s 16 April misrepresentation of the black man caused immediate hysteria throughout the black, straight and gay communities. This show did more harm than contributing to better understanding of the DL issue. My friends and I all agree that a follow-up show clarifing the state of the gay African American community to include simplifying the DL perspective to a global audience would rectify the chaos.

Ms. Winfrey, negative images are readily implanted in the public consciousness by ambiguous media coverage and reinforced by ignorance. Examples of this are the misogynistic and homophobic rhetoric in black music. Also, it�s alarming that people need to be told what to think, because they are incapable of rational thought by themselves. Therefore, sensationalizing of the DL phenomena instead of clarifications promotes this continuum of ignorance. Therefore, the previous show indorsed the following generalizations:

All black men are Gay;
All black men have AIDS; and
All black men are responsible for women contracting AIDS

Ms. Winfrey, this is the only life we get. Time is our total capital. I do not wish to stand by idle wasting it by allowing yet another negative view shaped and crafted by ambiguous rhetoric. Yesterday, I didn�t stand when my voice was needed; however; Today, I must stand and make my voice heard.

FRE
April 19 2004, 7:47PM

It is a misconception that HIV is a gay disease, at least in the U.S.

Here in Fiji, although statistics may be of questionable reliability, it appears that over 80% of HIV positive persons got it through heterosexual activity. The same appears to be true in Africa and throughout most of the 3rd world.

Although there has been speculation regarding why the vast majority of HIV positive persons in the U.S. got it through gay sex and why the majority in the 3rd world got it through non-gay sex, it appears that the reason may be that there are more people in the 3rd world with untreated STDs and it is known that STDs facilitate the spread of HIV. The fact that HIV is spreading so rapidly in the 3rd world shows that promiscuous sex is very common among non-gays.

There has also been speculation that the reason that HIV is so common among non-gays in the 3rd world but not in the U.S. is that circumcision is widespread in the U.S. I don't believe that to be the reason. Here in Fiji, the vast majority of ethnic Fijians have been circumcised for cultural reasons and yet the vast majority of HIV cases here are ethnic Fijians who comprise about 52% of the population. Ethnic Indians and people of other races, except for the Muslims (who comprise only about 10% of the non-ethnic Fijian Population), are not generally circumcised and yet the HIV rate among them appears far lower. Most of the difference can be explained only by behaviour.

In any case, on a global basis, HIV is NOT a gay disease! Rather, it is a human disease. It would not be an epidemic if people were faithful to one partner.

TellingTheTruth
April 19 2004, 7:59PM

It's not at all surprising to me that Black men participate in this behavior at alamring rates, since Black men have never been good at being men anyway. Look at how ridiculously easy it was for White men to invade Africa- the biggest, richest continent in the world- deplete its resources, enslave the men who had been living there for MILLIONS of years and should've known it inside out and use it against these invaders who didn't have a clue about it, then if that wasn't enough brainwash most of them only after a couple of generations into being some of the biggest believers and practitioners of White supremacy. I mean you don't even have to go back that far look at how Arab men are kicking Black men's asses today in Northern Africa. Name one country on this planet that Black men run where its people aren't starving, diseased, butchered in tribal wars, dirt-poor, or has a low mortality or illiteracy rate. Believe me, White men knew what the hell they were doing when they decided to enslave the Black man. HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US THAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY THE MOST EFFEMINATE MALE ON THIS EARTH, BEING THAT THEY ARE SO EASILY DOMINATED AND CONTROLLED, AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY THERE IS SUCH A FAKE, HYPER MASCULINE FA�ADE HE HAS TO ADOPT IN THE WESTERN WORLD AND THUS WHY THERE IS SO MUCH HOMOPHOBIA IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. In fact I wouldn't be surprised that if man-for-man there are many more Black gay/bi/DL/WHATEVER men than there are nonblack men in the world. Something is much weaker about Black men intrinsically which prevents him from defending HIS countries, taking care of his children, and preserving HIS own racial and cultural pride and living as a closeted bisexual. And like I said it's not surprising they are more deceitful and reckless about it, after all look at how inclined to violent crime many are. Keith Boykin proves that just because a person has a website doesn't mean they know what the hell they're talking about. A smart person would think he'd be happy that this type of deviance would be coming to light but no all he cares about is a preserving a good reputation- another FACADE. Let me just give you the bottom line: Black men participate in this behavior and spread AIDS all around because just like everything else about his existence he can�t do nothing right� oh, um, unless you count doing something with an inflated ball for the amusement of mostly White peoples, but I meant something that actually HELPS his OWN. And IN GENERAL that�s the truth , and deep down you all know it too.

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 9:12PM

"Telling the Truth"...

...I really take offense at your post, because I am African, the mother of 2 black boys and the LOVER of many black men...both African and Western.

Your broad stroke is not at all "the truth" about what and HOW our misfortune as Africans has taken place.

Granted, I curse and ridicule black men myself at times...but they are still, by far, the BEST men on earth.

As the black woman becomes more aware of her power and realizes that it's up to her to give birth to a new mindset for her children, male AND female...then we as a people will begin to recoup and regroup.

Black is DOWN...but not out.

And I love, cherish and covet the black man no matter what you've said.

Kola

jazzi
April 19 2004, 9:13PM

Not meaning to sound bigoted or "racist" but considering who owns & operates the media, it's not surprising to me that African Americans of any variety are being painted in the worse light possible. It doesn't suit them to talk or write about "positive" African American role models, gay, straight, or other wise & those of us who seemingly have "made it" don't always do as good a job at reping for us as we would like. So, instead of whining about how we'er being portrayed in the media & complaining about Oprah, let's do something about it ourselves. We could tell our own stories. You could do that here, Keith, on your web site. I don't know, maybe have a positive person or loving couple of the week article. Talk about some individual who's trying to make a difference in our community. Let's talk about those couple who are monogamous, faithful to each other, honest, & responsable. There are lots of gay couples who are raising children. Let's show that they can be as nurturing & caring as anyone else. I'm very serious here. Even those who visit your site everyday (like me)can get involed by sending in the name of someone who they think should be recognized. It'll take some work but hey....it's better than constantly bitching, moaning, & groaning about how others are portraying us. We need to control whats put out there about us. As for this "DL" thing, I think it's wrong to deceive someone. Motherfuck all of that so-called psychological shit, like "oh, it's just sex" or "oh, I don't love him" or "oh, there's no emotional bond". I know that for the most part, the African American community doesn't make coming out easy. Sad to say, you catch hell out here for being different, no matter where you're from, but something's got to give here. Don't bring someone else into your confusion. Don't make them apart of your madness. And will someone please tell me why a married woman should DEMAND that her husband where a condom during sex? In my little twisted mind, condoms wouldn't be an issue because she trust her man & it's not always about "ignoring the signs" either. Some of thes mofo's are so slick they don't leave any signs to ignore in the first place! I know it's not politically correct to expect these guys to be responsible & honest but don't bash the women either. A lot of times they really don't have any reason to suspect that their man is on the dl. It's easy to say "just look for the signs, honey, just watch for the signs". If you trust someone, your mind isn't even going in that direction. You believe that he, your husband, is going to protect you & why shouldn't she believe that? Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? Here goes my twisted mind again but I feel that these sisters are the innocent victims here & have a right to be angry. Seems that a lot of Black gays want to gloss over this issue or dismiss it as media hype all in the attemp to be politically correct.

jazzi
April 19 2004, 9:16PM

And one more thing: being on the dl is not an exclusively black thing, although the term itself may be. "Switch hitters" come in all shapes, sizes, & colours. The media doesn't touch upon this but that really doesn't surprise me.

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 9:16PM

Furthermore,

Keith Boykin is a KING. I would not put my name on this site if he wasn't.

I would gladly be the woman to give birth to a son like Keith Boykin.

People don't have to agree with everything someone says...I am certain that Keith has major disagreements with things that Kola Boof says and feels....but the thing is....he is the kind of son I would want, if my son was gay, and he is a HERO and a LEADER of his neighborhood.

Plus he's fine as hell and BLACK.

So you shouldn't say mean things against Keith Boykin. Because Kola Boof might track you down and kick your ass.

On the real, though.

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 9:18PM

That's right Jazzi!!

People should read that again.

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 9:41PM

What kind of name is Kola Boof? You sure is from the BUSH child! Kola what? Kola who? Chill Boof.

Fred
April 19 2004, 9:56PM

No offense to anyone here but most of you sound so defensive as if you're being called DL. I think DL men do exist and are thriving all over the globe. To me "DL" stands for deceptive liars. Liars who aren't truthful with their partners/wives/girlfriends. Liars who aren't sexually responsible in their lives.

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 10:01PM

Daniel Adams,

I really don't appreciate you posting and signing under MY NAME.

My name is my name. If you have something to say...be MAN ENOUGH to post under your own damned named.

What kind of shitty Euro-stupid name is Daniel Adams? Oh, I forgot. Your language makes sense to you and YOUR mother. That "bitch".

Please don't use my name in vain, nicca!

mee
April 19 2004, 10:02PM

TellingTheTruth I agree 100%.
I'm a black premed in college and it is disconcerting that lots of blacks students don't like doing things that require THINKING. All we want to do is play football or sports, become rappers and movie stars. Very very few blacks prefer to do scientific research, analysis data consistently and become successful scientists that CONTRIBUTE globally to science or academics . Another sad thing is that Haitain President that came to my school to tell us that he was "kidnapped" . Can he explain why his country was ravished in poverty and desolate?We can't wait for the white to invent new technology or scientific breakthrough. This is not about self hatred. it is about reality. The paskitans,chinese and jews fill the academic honor roll in college very year!! Are we not knowledgeable blacks? Ignorance will not have the best of us. We cannot be like Colin Powell or Rice that are puppets. We have to be writing objective scholarly materials based on critical knowledge not hampered with emotionalism. Which brings me to this article by Keith. Why is it that whenever the gay community(which i'm part of) recieves bad publicity you play the blame game? I think it high time this deviant behavior be exposed on the rooftops. Having luxuriant unsafe sex while having a wife or girlfriend is nothing to coverup. It must expose so that healing can take place or else there will be rottenness from the inside which is exactly what is happening to black community.
People listen up,race card has been milked dry it is high time we(blacks) start making serious contributions to the enhancement and evolution of human life. When it comes to crime, diseases and drugs we are right up there. Why are other minorites not up there also? I came all the way from Africa to study here and I am very disheartened by what i see here considering the fact that the government is throwing millions of dollars on education that few blacks are harnessing.

Sorry for the long post but i hope that we can all welcoming good and bad publicity since we need both to grow.

Laura
April 19 2004, 10:18PM

Jazzi said, "So, instead of whining about how we'er being portrayed in the media & complaining about Oprah, let's do something about it ourselves. We could tell our own stories. You could do that here, Keith, on your web site."

Or, we could *turn off the g-dam television*.

As for "Trolling the Truth", racist piece of crap, what parallel universe are you living in?

"Believe me, White men knew what the hell they were doing when they decided to enslave the Black man."

[rolls eyes]

Troll.

Laura
April 19 2004, 10:23PM

Hey, mee -

Where are you from in Africa?

Laura
April 19 2004, 10:24PM

"Daniel Adams"

...another racist piece of crap.

Ash
April 19 2004, 10:25PM

I find it rather ironic that J.L. King's Book is going to be a best seller that will rake in millions. People buying the book will plop down $15 to $20 to find out how to "see if your man is DL". Yet, no one is giving any money to HIV/AIDS organizations in communities of color who are hurting for funding. If would be nobel, I think, if King and his publishers would donate a great manority of the proceeds from his book to these organiation to provide education, and meds to thoes who need it.

I hope the fallout from this book will not set Black men back 50 years. I tell you, I'm ready to leave this country.

cmoney
April 19 2004, 10:31PM

Usually, a response to an idiot racist like "telling the truth" is a waste of time, but he obviously has racial issues. His theories about Black men being responsible for the spread of AIDS does not account for the explosion of AIDS in Eastern Europe (no brothers there), India (No brothers there), China (no brothers there), Southeast Asia (no brothers there) or anywhere else, for that matter. Maybe all those DL bro's got "Borscht fever" for some Russian booty! Racism is not the answer for a problem rooted in homophobia.

Laura
April 19 2004, 10:35PM

"We need to control whats put out there about us. "

That's what blogs are for.

Mine's on hiatus right now, but each person here can start their own, and thus don't have to hang that burden on Keith.

http://www.blogger.com
http://www.livejournal.com
http://www.typepad.com

It takes all of 10 minutes to set one up and start posting, and the 1st two are free.

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 11:13PM

"mee" is a troll, Laura.

You come from Africa, Mee? You're Pre-med?

OK then. Tell me what English speaking nation's academic system is dominated by West African students, with Asians rating a distant 3rd in that nation's intelligence and mastering tests?

Get it right the first time.

WHITE CHRISTIAN TROLL

Nee
April 20 2004, 2:25AM

Claiming that "they have it more" is just as ignorant as everything else. I see a lot of finger pointing. While everyone's pointing fingers, folks are dropping like flies stuck in lamps. Of course some of these flies just swirl around the light - knowing it's dangerous, but feel they are invincible until they are BURNED. My point is, many people do know about AIDS, at least now, but they act ignorant towards it. They feel they are invincible.

jwpmmuf
April 20 2004, 8:31AM

carl68- I totally understand what you are talking about. I am a college student in Augusta, GA and at least 60% of the bruthas on this campus are DL. During the day, they don't even recognize me because they know that I am out. In the evening, they are the first ones to be hanging out by my dorm room. Unfortunately, the majority of these bruthas have girlfriends on the side and use them as a cover-up. In my opinion, it is more honorable and respectful for a brutha to come-out and admit that he is gay or bisexual to a sistah or brutha, rather than hiding it.

t
April 20 2004, 8:47AM

ANother great article Keith! I didn't have time to read all the responses (think u hit a nerve!?!) but had to throw my two cents in. As a health care provider in an urban community health clinic I observe more young women becoming infected with HPV(the virus that causes genital warts) which leads to cervical cancer. Men (whatever their race or orientation) have been killing their partners for years with cervical cancer. I think this DL/HIV thing is another example of the twisted race consciousness of our society. I pray alot now!

peace and blessings....

"Think Globally, Act Locally"

Troy
April 20 2004, 9:01AM

New working titles of J.L. King's next book...

1. How to Turn a Profit off the Lives and Deaths of Female and Male People Of Color

2. Queens and The Queens That Love Them!

3. The Best Suit and Tie Get-Up to Wear on Talk Shows

4. Pocket all the Money and To Hell With Any Help or Help Organizations.

5. Me, Me and Me. Oh and Then There's Me.

6. Can't Get Enough Of That Man Sandwich

7. Bringing Down Your Own People While Offering Nothing in Return

8. Unsung Heros of The Street and the People That Blow Them

9. How You too Can Get a Book deal and Stop Doing Real Work

10. My Dick Rules, Let Me Show You How!

11. I'm Too Cool To Be Gay, Besides I Got 20 People on The Side!

12. Doing the Mentally Retarded and the Disabled and a side dish of the Blind in 10 Easy Lessons!

13. Get Your Freak On All Hours of The Day!

14. Steal Dick Darryl!

15. How Not to Smirk Or Smile On T.V. While Telling Lies, While Your Hoes Are Watching.

16. It's Okay to Mess Around, As Long As You Look CLean and Got A New Lexus!

17. A Checkup? F That!

18. How I Found Love At The Sex Party and I Said AHHHHH....

19. Hi, Nice to Meet You, Let's Fuck

20. Offer Investment Options To People Like the KKK and The Republican Party, Tis the Season to Completely Sell Out

Feel free to add to my list. The DVD, clothing line, frissbees, caps and keychains are in the works as we speak!

Troy
April 20 2004, 9:48AM

Let's talk sex addiction, why not?

How come the latest edition of Essence magazine had nothing but females writing in and telling it's editors how addicted to sex they are and how they are cheating on their boyfriends, husbands and lovers?

Why are we not talking about how the media portrays any person of color as an object rather than a person, for example The Shaq, The Kobe, even people we want to respect get objectified; Johnny Cocrane and so on and so forth.

No, there's no need to buy this book because we already know the story.

Hate to say it but I smell the racism rat again and we are buying right into it while ignoring our own individual back yards.

Who will be the next nigga of the week to be hanged? Who?

Jim
April 20 2004, 10:13AM

Hey, Troy, I think you're onto something. Let me work in your advertising department. Here's the first slogan for your line of clothing and accessories for the closeted gay black male:

"DL Sportswear: When You're So Far In, You're Out."

Let's make millions, baby.

Troy
April 20 2004, 10:24AM

Jim,

I'm McDonalds Lovin it

The new steak sandwich there is the number 12; called the J.L., you get to have sex with the cashier on the sneak tip, ssshhh!

Manifest Vision
April 20 2004, 10:27AM

Keith,

I feel you. And I firmly believe that it's hard being black and gay, those who are out, should be commended. And Mr. Boykin I commend you. You give me inspiration to be openly gay everytime I read one of your articles. But, books like these damage the already negative stereotype that black gay men have. Everyone from my mother to my boss is talkin about that show. Constantly complaining about black men. IT'S ASHAME

But, i still THANK YOU!

ManifestVision

Troy
April 20 2004, 10:51AM

Oprah's the new jesus, we don't breathe without her.

Jim
April 20 2004, 11:18AM

Troy, can I get fries with that???

Marlon
April 20 2004, 11:21AM

Carl68 and jmpmmuf�-hey bruthas--rest your head on my shoulder for a moment and allow me to share a few words .

Your �out� status is a beacon, and folks who are seeking understanding will draw near. The guys you both mention desire empowerment; they will never admit, but they are searching for answers through you. Remember�one day that will say to you, �through you I found the courage to be�.� You�re an ambassador of empowerment�like it or not. Guys, when you can see behind the mask folks adorn externally, you witness a individual seeking those basic hierarchical needs.

And don�t fret about loneliness, there are plenty of great guys waiting for you. Some of the best guys won�t mirror your existence, so don�t overlook what�s directly in front of you that doesn�t meet your exact specification. Too often we look over excellent in search of perfect. Moreover, don�t rush it!

Ok�-Now-�get off my shoulder, you got work to do!

Doctor
April 20 2004, 11:22AM

Hello Brothers and Sisters! I was coming to this website via a link from J L Kings website. The link has been removed!!! I guess we all were to real for him!! That is except you, TELLING THE LIE.

Keith keep up the good work and I hope you get an opportunity to go on Oprah and set things STRAIGHT!

Another Voice
April 20 2004, 12:14PM

All people, need to get back to that old saying, NO GLOVE NO LOVE...it is that simple and if you are that distracted or desperate for sex then a preventable disease will have you...I know there are a lot of self esteem issues attached to the DL, infections among black women etc...but a long time ago (1988) I said to myself over and over again I do not want to die..maybe that is what people should put in the front of their minds...and NO the other person is NOT going to think about your safety and health only you can...so I ask you again: DO YOU WANT TO DIE???

jwpmmuf
April 20 2004, 1:13PM

Marlon..Thank you for those encouraging words. I do my best to keep a level head because I don't want to be pompous but I am confident in who I am. As a Resident Assistant, I have counseled plenty of bruthas on campus who have been questioning but they are scared to come out. It gets frustrating because the DL bruthas on this campus avoid the bruthas who are "out of the closet" and doing advocacy work. It irritates me because I know of bruthas who have girlfriends and they try to flirt/get with me. As a result, I have put my guard up because I don't have time for mess.

Larry
April 20 2004, 2:46PM

Damn Troy you don't set it off........here's my 2cents

1) The new Toyota DL Cruiser

.....the size of an H2 Hummer...hyper-masculine and only comes in BLACK...comes with tinted windows, dubs, and a FREE Tupac collection blasted on 12" woofers.....and nobody will ever know that behind the tinted windows "The Little Mermaid" DVD is playing on repeat rotation on screens that rise from the seats

-----DL Toyota...OH! What a Feelin!

2) New DL Candybar.... "Mounds of Almond Joy"

one side is full of HARD roasted almonds.....the other side soft and guey...

...cause sometimes you feel like some nuts, sometimes you don't!

3) New J.L. cell phone by Motorola.

- Only shows the last names when yo ho's call so no one can tell if its a man or a woman
- service provided by ALL-TELL networks

4) Mo name's fo da book:

- "Hucklebooty Fin: creepin to the hood to meet black Jim"

- "How to point the finger at everybody else to keep it off of you"

- "From a Negative to a Positive: How to make a quick mill after your boyfriends outs you to yo mama"

- "Bottoms Up: Confessions of black man in Amerikkka"

......maybe more to cum...

verrone
April 20 2004, 5:23PM

As a (black) registered nurse of almost 16 years, I've seen the "face of aids" come in many forms(races, class, etc.) They all had the same thing in common: one horrific, suffering-laden DEATH. Have ANY of you taken care of UP CLOSE...AND ACTUALLY TOUCHED...CARED FOR...anyone with this disease? I've also seen MULTITUDES of cases of every std in the book, while doing clinic work as well. NOT PRETTY. SOOOOO....Ladies and (mostly)gentlemen reading this: I haven't heard not a SINGLE one of these AIDS/STD patients even breathe the words...THE WHITE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS, ETC. ETC.. White folks are not forcing our men to(on almost a weekly basis) form new websites/yahoo groups promoting sex parties on the down-low, or setting up "liasons" with each other from coast to coast etc.... The white man is not beating our men over the head and forcing them to continually have premeditated, intentional, UNSAFE sex with MULTIPLE PARTNERS. Let's just keep THIS FACT REAL, CAN WE PLEASE? In my humble opinion, gay black men ARE REALLLL MEN who are TRULY HONEST with not only themselves, but with their partners! ALTHOUGH I AM I EXTEMEMLY PROUD OF MY BLACK RACE, I THINK THAT THE BLACK GAY COMMUNITY SHOULD MAKE VERY SURE THAT THEY DO NOT ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH THE "DL MAN" IN TERMS OF ANY KIND OF EMOTIONAL SUPPORT, ETC. Why? To see the arrogance of Mr. King, and how he(as well as the overall DL community, I'm sure)TURN THEIR NOSES UP ON GAY MEN AND BELITTLE THEM AS IF THE DL MAN IS SO MACHO, ETC. AND UPRIGHT...burns me the hell up. I'm just speaking from the heart, y'all. I've seen over the past 15+ years at how the gay community(black and white combined, wether as separate grass-roots organizations or conjoined)have taken charge of this aids crisis, and TOOK RESPONSIBILTY AND ORGANIZED! Outreach groups, safe-sex counseling, etc. etc. And the aids %'s have gone down considerably in this community. While our women need to take a more active, mature and responsible role in the bedroom and demand condom use, I still suspect that this 'DL' man is largely responsible for our skyrocketing aids-related cases in our community. OH...AND ONE LAST THING TO THINK ABOUT...(I'VE PASSED THIS ON TO MY NEPHEW WHO IS OPENLY GAY...)I THINK ANY BLACK OPENLY GAY MAN SHOULD STEER CLEAR OF THESE DL MEN IF THEY APPROACH YOU; AS WITH THE CURRENT STATS OF BLACK WOMEN BEING INFECTED WITH HIV/AIDS, I'M AFRAID THE % MAY RISE AGAIN IN THE GAY COMMUNITY, DEALING WITH THESE SELFISH, SELF-CENTERED, AND SADISTIC PEOPLE WHO REFER TO THEMSELVES AS "REAL MEN". Thanks for listening.

jwpmmuf
April 20 2004, 5:44PM

Well stated verrone. I just hope that Opera will do a show in response to Mr. King with some openly black gay men to get another perspective because black gay men ARE NOT ANTI FAMILY/CHILDREN/COMMUNITY. We are strong, respectful, and productive citizens.

blistering napalm
April 20 2004, 5:54PM

''DL, THE CULURAL MOVEMENT''

SPEAKER 2 [11:33 PM]: nah - there are levels of deceit and denial
involved in all of them
SPEAKER 1 [11:33 PM]: how giovanni's room
SPEAKER 2 [11:34 PM]: lol
SPEAKER 2 [11:35 PM]: well, it IS black men who created a
cultural movement out of it!
SPEAKER 2 [11:35 PM]: lol
SPEAKER 1 [11:35 PM]: a cultural movement or a word?
SPEAKER 2 [11:36 PM]: oh pleeze~ there are DL sex clubs, DL phone
sex, DL chat rooms, DL message boards, etc. etc. etc.
SPEAKER 1 [11:37 PM]: that's a paper topic
SPEAKER 2 [11:37 PM]: lol
SPEAKER 2 [11:37 PM]: oh you academics!
SPEAKER 2 [11:37 PM]: but Oprah's already done it!
SPEAKER 2 [11:37 PM]: although I am sure she concentrated on the
tears and fears
SPEAKER 1 [11:37 PM]: of course
SPEAKER 1 [11:38 PM]: it was all about lying to women and AIDS
SPEAKER 2 [11:38 PM]: right
SPEAKER 1 [11:38 PM]: not what would produce the deceit
SPEAKER 1 [11:38 PM]: and the hiding
SPEAKER 2 [11:38 PM]: oh yes - it's gay pathology, not societal
pathology
SPEAKER 1 [11:38 PM]: how u figure, i am curious
SPEAKER 2 [11:39 PM]: no - I am parroting oprah
SPEAKER 1 [11:39 PM]: ooooooooo, yup
SPEAKER 2 [11:39 PM]: and the societal party line
SPEAKER 1 [11:39 PM]: huh?
SPEAKER 2 [11:40 PM]: weeeelllll! can you get more mainstream
than oprah???????????????
SPEAKER 1 [11:40 PM]: nope

''OPRAH THE ANTICHRIST & THE BLACK CHURCH''

SPEAKER 2 [12:30 AM]: time was you could be a gay man and go to church, in the black community in america - everybody was just hush hush about it. NObody wanted to be seen as attacking a black brother
SPEAKER 2 [12:30 AM]: that sure has changed!
SPEAKER 2 [12:31 AM]: the black religious establishment has thrown its lot in with the right-wing white evangelists
SPEAKER 1 [12:31 AM]: i know! can u believe it!
SPEAKER 2 [12:31 AM]: casting rocks at gays
SPEAKER 2 [12:31 AM]: throwing them out of church
SPEAKER 2 [12:31 AM]: the DL came about because that's the way homosexuality evolved in the black community
SPEAKER 2 [12:32 AM]: it was alright - just don't talk about it
SPEAKER 1 [12:32 AM]: yes, very much so, i'm glad u understand that
SPEAKER 2 [12:32 AM]: so it's a pretty big kick in the pants to suddenly toss the whole thing out
SPEAKER 2 [12:33 AM]: now that homophobia is so mainstream, recognized by the government, institutionalized, black folk can finally exhale, and recognize their own intolerance and hatred
SPEAKER 2 [12:33 AM]: and validate it against the white folks' template
SPEAKER 1 [12:33 AM]: so true
SPEAKER 2 [12:33 AM]: and there's super liberal Oprah, jumping right on the bandwagon. shameful
SPEAKER 1 [12:34 AM]: lol
done more tro convince americans that their lives suck than anyone!
SPEAKER 2 [12:35 AM]: her show is all about fear
SPEAKER 2 [12:35 AM]: I'm too fat, I'm too fucked up, I think wrong, my children are endangered, my husband's a fag
SPEAKER 2 [12:35 AM]: self-help!
SPEAKER 2 [12:35 AM]: empowerment turned on its ear
SPEAKER 1 [12:35 AM]: it's one thing to promote anyone can get AIDS, it's another to promote everyone will
SPEAKER 2 [12:36 AM]: it's that feat thing. fear your neighbor. fear your man. fear your children's teachers
SPEAKER 1 [12:36 AM]: there's a fine line btwn informing and panic
SPEAKER 2 [12:36 AM]: fear your doctor
SPEAKER 2 [12:36 AM]: there's a bright line between blame and truth
SPEAKER 1 [12:37 AM]: very true

Leonardo da vinci E.
April 20 2004, 6:59PM

The "down-low" approach to innate feelings (which in the end are so potent they can't be ignored)are not always geared towards being deceptive...they are mostly protective.We are ourselves being deceptive not to clarify that a Community (in the height of its corruption)is more than capable of inforcing its dictates by a remote attack designed to leave certain segments of society helpless,and left to ...die.By casual methods even "murder...she wrote" is possible with a "remote" distance attached that allows the perpetrators to feel they have not been responsible at all.

Evram
April 20 2004, 8:53PM

"he "down-low" approach to innate feelings (which in the end are so potent they can't be ignored)are not always geared towards being deceptive...they are mostly protective."

I believed you touched on something there Leonardo. More often than not, it is a protective device. I know some people have said this already but it goes back to how the word "gay" and anything geared toward same sex relationships is frowned upon in the black community. If there wasn't such a stigma attached to it, may be there would be more men out or at least not lying to their partners. This is not to say that it makes what these DL Brothas do as right. We've got to have more dialogue with our heterosexual sistas and brothas so that they have an understanding of how diverse the black gay communtiy is. We're not all promiscuous. We're not all on the down low. We're not any different except that we're attracted to the same sex.

Jim
April 21 2004, 11:03AM

I just fell in love with Verrone.

Nee
April 21 2004, 11:25AM

But should deception be a way to protect yourself? Obviously, this deception hardly does anything to protect. Again, I find no information that would justify harming someone, just because you feel you will be harmed. Treat people like you want to be treated, ya know?

I find it more on the self-hatred type then "da white man" cuz the "white man" hardly had anything to do with this show, just approved it. They are HANGING themselves. Oprah, JL, and DL men. They are becoming the stereotype at which they so detested and thus went underground for. Contradicting. Again, being on the DL is a bit different from being in the closet. I'm not DLing, but I'm not "out" to everyone. Who needs to know? With folks going on TV the way they have been, no one will be able to understand the GLBT community, not just the Black GLBT community.

alicia
April 21 2004, 12:40PM

troy:

great titles!

i love your posts

here is mine:

"how to live and get rich in denial via bogus labels"

peace
ab

yes....i have missed any politically relevant show oprah has ever done!!!

no i do not watch any fluffy talk shows!!!

Regan DuCasse
April 21 2004, 2:50PM

I was listening to an interview by a Denver clergyman and Jonathan Rauch who has a new book out on why gay marriage is good for everyone.
The minister kept repeating that gays and lesbians lead a 'dangerous lifestyle'. He repeated this often, but as we all know-gay sex unto itself isn't dangerous.
Promiscuity and adultery is...which has nothing to do with being gay or not.
However, repeating a lie is a way of enabling it and giving it strength.
What the real selective nature of non procreative sex is, is for communication, love bonding and psycholgical happiness. This truth can be repeated often and LOUDLY.
Human pairs without children can contribute mightily to the greater good because there is no compromise in competence or inferiority to what non gays do. Parental sexual orientation doesn't determine that of the child.
Reality honors this truth.
Anybody says different, like homophobes and the ignorant..like this minister who spke with Jonathan Rauch-is just the worst kind of coward.
We've seen this trick before when someone wanted to WISH they were superior, but without the substance to back it up.
I'm over here in Los Angeles and joined the ranks of the Marriage Equality California advocacy.
Who is over here in LA too?

Troy
April 21 2004, 4:00PM

Exactly Alicia, exactly my point!

I wish I was in L.A. Regan to help further the cause, let me know how I can on my end of the earth here on the eastcoast in New York City.

Anybody see this J.L. King boogie woogie as another pimple on an even greater sore?

Anybody want to talk about how mostly young black men and poor men are given guns and not jobs and told to fight in a war they know nothing about? How long do we stay numb and silent while the house burns down around us.

Why is no one doing and saying NOTHING??!! WHY?

Nakia Clements
April 21 2004, 5:12PM

I think this article was very insightful, especially coming from a Real Black Man, who is intelligent and aware of himself enough to be who he is - a Gay Black Man. As an intelligent black woman, I really respect that. However, what I don't like is this divisive discussion of personal responsibility. Should black men have safe sex? Yes. Should black women have safe sex? Yes. We need to acknowledge that the male/female relationships in our community is severely damaged from an emotional and sexual standpoint. This isn't surprising considering the legacy of slavery that still haunts us. We can't love ourselves, we can't love each other. You have a lot of our brothers and sisters who remain in the oppressive mentality that sexual prowess and gratification is all we have to offer society. Then when you turn on the media, this mindset is confirmed by videos (BET Uncut!!), shows, etc. Let's love each other. There is no longer a Master raping black women on the side and black men are more than just a "Mandingo!" Can we rise above it? The fundamentals of this fight against HIV and homophobia(The root cause of brothers on the DL!) is simple - education and unity - not blame!

Troy
April 21 2004, 10:02PM

Another full, full day....
My partner and I were talking on the phone and in so doing he started to tell me something that really got to me, let me share this with you; where he works, he's been there some 20 to 25 years and the people he works with about the same amount of time, some have been 30 or more years. Today was a farewell party in New York City, the companys building lease is up and they would have to move to New Jersey. It was left up to them, employees if they wanted to go or stay. Most being up in age opted out and took a 'package deal' some stayed, like my partner and onto New Jersey he and they will go.
At one point during the party things got sad, a few people cried, some cried longer than others. One particular older lady of color was crying longer and longer, she left the building and came back in. My partner saw her walk back in and asked her whats wrong why are you crying like that. She turned and told him that she just found out her daughter was HIV Positive and contacted it from a man who she had been with who she thought was faithful to only her. This hit me. I had to really stop for a few and really realize that that is the next step. It will hit us in places we never thought of, and then what?
Alot of people came at me and came to mind when I heard this or that about an announcement of so and so contacting the disease. But this time was like no other time there was and a sick empty sad feeling came to me. That quiet sinking feeling. I really didn't know what to feel when he told me all this. All I knew is this new book rocking our little world and the commentaries therein.
The tip of the iceberg is J.L.King's story and I am truly afraid of what is next.
Please be safe if you are one of the ones reading this. I really don't want to get any news like this that happened today about anybody me or you. We must and can do better.
I think we know where we each stand on J.L. but all the words aside; Play it safe, stick with the truth, opt for a solid monogamous relationship and above all else; communicate, even it's with no one but the man upstairs. Thanks.

Von
April 22 2004, 10:47AM

I have come across this article in a search on information about STD's. I think what everybody (straight bi gay black white) seems to be forgetting is that we all have a common enemy and that enemy grows stronger with ignorance. Aids can affect us all but we can fight this enemy if we battle it together. I don't care who people have sex with but I do care if the have safe sex. women can give it to women just as easy as men can give it to men and so on. Straight can give it to gay and gay can give it to straight. Please people protect yourself. This Is Life Or Death

Jim
April 22 2004, 11:09AM

This is getting off the subject, MAYBE, but I just read Nakia's comment that "there is no longer a Master raping black women on the side." Yet, during the Super Bowl halftime show, a white man ripped the clothes off a black woman in front of thousands of cheering people, and what has been the fallout? The white man has gone on to be treated like a brotha, and the black woman is regarded as the biggest hoochie of the 21st century. The more things change, the more they stay the same . . . and also, Nakia, sadly the Mandingo stereotype is still alive and well in America, but nowadays he's selling multiplatinum albums and playing for the NBA.

Doctor
April 22 2004, 3:44PM

HELLO VERRONE and EVERYONEELSE , Although I agree with some of the things that have been said about the OPRAH SHOW and THE WHOLE DOWN LOW ISSUE, the YAHOO GOURPS are not LIMITED too LIASONS for BLACK MEN ON THE DL! If you actually search the GROUPS you will find that there are just as many if not MORE GROUPS for "STRAIGHT" MEN and WOMEN who want to meet and have CASUAL SEX ON THE DL!! There are GROUPS for BLACK WOMEN 4 WHITE MEN, BLACK MEN 4 WHITE WOMEN, BLACK WOMEN 4 BLACK MEN, OPENLY BI BLACK MEN 4 Black WOMEN, WHITE MEN 4 WHITE MEN ect, ect.... Who may or may not be HIV+ and or married!!

A BLACK MAN IS NO MORE RESPONDSIBLE FOR GIVING A BLACK WOMAN HIV, THAN A BLACK WOMAN IS RESPONDSIBLE FOR GIVING A BLACK MAN A BABY!!
THE LAST TIME I CHECKED IT STILL TOOK TWO!!!

Every BLACK WOMAN that has HIV didn't get from having sex with a BLACK MAN on the DL. Some BLACK WOMEN are IV DRUG USERS! SOME BLACK WOMEN ARE PROSTITUTES! SOME BLACK WOMEN DO SLEEP AROUND! AND SOME BLACK WOMEN DO DATE WHITE MEN AND SOME OF THESE MEN ARE HIV+!!!! SOME BLACK WOMEN DO INFECT INNOCENT BLACK MEN and YES SOME BLACK WOMEN ARE INNOCENT VICTIMS TOO!!!!

According to the 2000 US CENSUS, there are 9.9 MILLION BLACK MEN and 12.6 MILLION BLACK WOMEN in the U.S., keeping that in mind, HIV will travel a much quicker rate through the black male populus whether they are straight, gay, bi or on the "DL". According to THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH and HUMAN SERVICES report on HIV and AIDS through December 2002, there were 60'245 BLACK MEN with HIV and 239,888 BLACK MEN with AIDS for a combined total of only 300,133 out of 9.9 million BLACK MEN. From the same source it was reported that 37,619 BLACK WOMEN had HIV and 89,241 had AIDS for a combined total of only 126,860 out of 12.6 MILLION BLACK WOMEN in the U.S. I don't know where you live, but times have truly changed, there are almost just as many "HOT MAMA'S" as there are HORNY PAPA's on the WORLD.

The problem with the spread of HIV is SIMPLY SEXUAL PROMICUITY and UNPROTECTED SEX!! That is where the BLAME should TRULY LIE!! These so-called BLACK MEN ON THE DL ARE A OVER DRAMITIZED, OVER BLOWN MINORITY OF MEN THAT HAS JUST BEEN EXPLOITED BY ONE OF THEIR OWN, J. L. KING!!!

Any time a CUMLATIVE DISEASE spills over from a MAJORITY POPULUS to a MINORITY POPULUS it's going to have a DEVASTING EFFECT. In WHITE AMERICA there is at least "7 DEGREES OF SEPARATION" In BLACK AMERICA there is only about 3 or 4. Get it!

Unfornately the faces of those MINORITY OF MEN on the DL will be PROJECTED ONTO THE FACE OF EVERY BLACK MAN IN AMERICA BECAUSE IT'S A FACE THAT YOU CAN'T PICK OUT OF A CROWD!! THE BLACK MALE IMAGE HAS BEEN CRUSIFIED FOR DECADES TO COME. We live in a WORLD where everyone GENERALIZES, STEREOTYPES, RIDICULUES, and JUDGES YOU FOR THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN AND NOT THE CONTENT OF YOUR INDIVIDUAL CHARACTER!!!

AS far as "THE WHITE MAN", HIS GOVERNMENT and the CDC, where was all the WARNING when it was mostly a gay white male DISEASE!! Why didn't they WARN and EDUCATE the most VUNERABLE populations FIRST!!! That would undoubtedly be the MINORITY POPULUS!!! WHICH IS THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF BLACKS AND HISPANICS!!!

Let us never forget THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT!!! When THE GOVERNMENT and HOSPITALS PURPOSELY INFECTED 399 BLACK MEN WITH SYPHILIS!!! From 1932-1972 in ALABAMA!! These men had NO KNOWLEDGE of what was being done to them and they were literally lied to told that they had BAD BLOOD!! They were DENIED MEDICAL TREATMENT and sent home to SPREAD SYPHILIS throughout their COMMUNITY!!! I wonder what were the CDC REPORTS on SYPHILIS and BLACK MEN AND WOMEN THEN!!!!! Was it the "DL" BROTHER who was infecting BLACK WOMEN with SYPHILIS!!!! Or was it the INNOCENT POOR BLACK MEN in TUSKEGEE ALAMABA that were being used as "HUEMAN" LAB RATS, for what turned into the MEDICAL EXPERIMENT IN HISTORY!!!!!!!!! 40 years of studing These BLACK MEN!!! What for!! I'll tell you what for!!!!! GENOSIDE!!!!!! GENOSIDE!!!!!! GENOSIDE!!!!! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!

Doctor
April 22 2004, 3:47PM

Sorry, GENOCIDE!!!! GENOCIDE!!!!! GENOCIDE!!!!

Leonardo da vinci E.
April 22 2004, 4:56PM

The disease itself is caused by mother nature evolving...and that is not something for which to blame any man or woman who may find themselves taking risk because the physical desire for sensuality(quite naturally)is very strong.The gays are being blamed simply as scapegoats...but mother nature is determined to play the game of survival of the strongest,fastest,most cunning even on a virus,bacteria level..and she is quite neutral toward the affairs of men.Education,reinforcement,loving reminders etc.is the key,and as I wrote to someone recently:You must allow gay people to be themselves and with the full dignity which (heretofore you have been unwilling to give)everyone else has so they can develope freely the customs unique to them but"safely" done because they are not under attack for being themselves and prone to be deceptive to avoid persecutions.In fact,you must accept their equality with the possible exception of only those who by their actions show they intend to be unfairly disruptive..force themselves upon some other or take unfair advantage of some other.

Larry
April 22 2004, 5:26PM

......Why the hell are all the str8 ho's being let off the hook? I knew a chick in high school that reportedly gave HIV to like 9 bruthas.....and what about the str8 bruthas that go around burning sistas? has anybody forgotten about them??????

chris
April 22 2004, 5:52PM

I've been reading the commments in response to Keith's essay for the past several days now. I'm impressed by the number of people who have responded and the breadth and depth of some of the comments.

Some of the commentary has been superb, but Verrone has knock the ball right out of the field as far as I'm concerned. He/She has put into words what I could not figure out how to say myself.

The DL brothers are the most sickening of them all. They walk around pretending to be paragons of all that is masculine, strong, and virile. Yet, when you actually talk to them you'll find that they are the weakest of us all. They flout responsibility. They are cowards. They are dishonest, deceitful, and not even true to themselves. You will also find that a lot of DL brothers are also finacially dependent on someone else like their mother who they still live with or their girlfriend who feigns ignorance.

I guess what really gets me about these DL brother is their sense of superiority toward brothers who are out or who are overtly femminine or those, who like myself, are out to friends and family, but not out in professional settings.

Being a man or a woman is about strength, honesty, courage, decency and respect for others. The DL brothers could learn a lesson or two from these young, strong, powerful gay brothers who coming of age and into their own now.

Thanks Verrone.

ds
April 22 2004, 6:57PM

I find this article extremely disturbing, as a gay man with HIV I don't find difference between white and black, I find difference in education. There is no education of risks for Americans today,

I recently have had more Asian, Latino, and Caucasian gay male friends who have contracted the disease in the past few years than my African American friends. Admittedly, they are all openly gay individuals.
I go into predominately gay neighborhoods and see few to no safer sex messaging in bars, kiosks, newspapers, etc.

I go into predominately African American neighborhoods nationwide and find many safer sex messages for women and drug abuse individuals.

I find no messaging for African American men, or gay men in any community (African American, again, Caucasian, or others).....

I do understand the statistics regarding rates of infections for African American women, and do realize African American women are testing higher, but I really believe that is simply because African American women test, and African American men refuse or don't have access to healthcare establishments to take the tests. I doubt that many men on "DL" or other men not "self identifying" as gay (bi-sexual) would readily take the test. I know many gay African Americans and Latinos that refer to themselves as strict "tops" in the gay community that perceive themselves to be above risk because they don't "receive". (this comment is aimed mostly at those two ethnic groups because of levels of machismo of not wanting to be identified as passive or feminine, it does not preclude those individuals from actually receiving, just the self-denial of the actual act or its' feminine bias.)

I personally blame advancement of HIV infections in all communities to the CDC and governmental agencies who refuse to actively advertise messages about realities of HIV infection as well as all safer sex messages regarding STD's

I have known and even dated men who were on the "DL' in their respective communities, and I mean "Caucasion/Latino/African American, et al" who were generally more protective than those individuals who self identified as being gay!

I find responsibility and culpability to be the key factor of ignorance here, along with low levels of self respect.

I mean, the low level of responsibility of the female partners to have casual sex with their partners without protection is not wise. Regardless of their "sexuality" they risk the chance of pregnancy, if not on the pill, or other STD's.

The lack of willpower and self respect required to ask for condom use by African American females must also be addressed in their community. The stronghold in the community is religious faith based organizations, which simply ignore sexuality and sexual relations, thus fostering ignorance on the subject.

I know I have touched on numerous emails with this message, but feel the problem is not as limited as Oprah's show detailed, and an outcry should be made for OPRAH to do a full show on the varying aspects or the new infections and the amount of individuals who refuse to test and why.

She should also take a moment to realize a minority phenomenon of acute low self esteem in demanding the use of condoms and the machismo of male partners in the hetero and homo sexual communities at their offense to being asked to wear them.

Cederico
April 22 2004, 11:12PM

Go Verrone.

You state it very well. Let's stop with this coddling of the DL. It is nothing but a glorified closet. I for one will never approve of the DL status and like Verrone suggested I stay away as much as possible from dealing with those brothas.

Lauren Wheeler
April 23 2004, 1:49AM

i'm with you. i quoted you, actually, in my own blog about this subject a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/fightingwords/199542.html

nycdlmusckat
April 23 2004, 12:42PM

I try to be generally sensitive to other folks' stance on issues, events and PEOPLE, but this is ONE situation where I can honestly say I DON'T GIVE A FUCK!!! Please allow me a few lines to vent.

I'd read one or two excerpts from J.L. King's book in the past and had been truly turned off by his lack of sincerity and denial. My first question is: who made this nigga an authority on ANYTHING, talk less of the DL Lifestyle! Nothing about him is DL apart from the fact that his whole propaganda is a scheme to heap up wealth for himself on the behalf of others! How can this notoriety even claim knowlegde of anything judging from what he's said of himself and his dealings???

I watched him with impunity on Oprah yesterday and if I ever had fears about his sanity, those fears were confirmed yesterday! This nigga sat there, looking like a testosteronized-queen talking about himself as though he were a prototype of the DL guy! Damn, I know I ain't the only one who could have picked that guy out from a group of men as a dick-loving brother (and my 'gaydar' ain't even the sharpest)! Everything about him reeked GAY, CLOSETED-QUEEN and a FAG-EPITOMIZED, yet he claims to be an authority on the DL lifestyle?

It would have been funny if it weren't so annoying! How can this fool talk about being on an altruistic mission yet still confess that he fucks (GETS FUCKED) by men? I don't get it! He's out there leading the forum that DL men are the colossal arbiters of the AIDS virus YET he's still fucking around! This is insanity at its very best!

He lacked credibility even BEFORE he opened his mouth! First of all, if folks can look at you and tell that you get fucked, YOU AIN'T DL! The only thing low about you is your ass straddling the ground! J.L. King and the other fem-kat (the one in dreads) do NOT even remotely represent the 'DL culture' (borrowing the popular phrase)!

The unfortunate thing is that a lot of folks (men and women inclusive) are actually going to believe this guy's ranting and take it as an index of fact, whereas it's nothing but another nigga doing his hustle (making merchandise off the struggles of other people). Everything about that guy (J.L. King) reeked deceit and ignominy! How can he portray HIMSELF as a true representation of a life he's NEVER lived??? J.L. King was NEVER DL, he was a CLOSET FAG! Those are two distinctly-different terms. And just before anyone attempts to counter that, please be aware that having a girl and kids does not auomatically confer a DL status on you. I've seen MANY frivolously-gay men who have kids and have once been in pussy - it's all part of the denial process!

Why do we keep getting this wrong..? Why is it all sooooooo warped? Is it that society just finds it better to blame someone for an apparent ill? It really doesn't make any sense. The real problem is UNPROTECTED SEX, be it with a man, a woman or with a goat! If you're fucking around, you expose yourself to the risks of HIV! It's not about WHO you fuck, it's about HOW you fuck! If you're fucking without the necessary precautions, then your ass is grossly at risk, period!

I'm tired of people trying to point fingers. Even 'violently'-gay guys who constantly indulge in dangerous sex-parties have the guts to point fingers at DL guys! How in the world does that make sense??? Anyone who opens up his ass or her pussy to an 'unclad' dick has made an informed CHOICE to expose himself/herself to the AIDS virus!!! Someone said this somewhere and it should be adherred to: TREAT EVERYONE AS THOUGH THEY HAVE THE VIRUS!!!

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I don't think ANYONE should be having unprotected sex (and I don't care how long you've known the person or been in a relationship) UNLESS they're trying to have a child. Automatically, that rules out ALL gay encounters!

Fuck J.L. King! Fuck him big time..! I can't stand people who work on the fears of others just to benefit themselves financially!

jaymillionaire
April 24 2004, 7:53AM

I agree the act without a name is causing great harm to our society. I believe the problem stems from a lack of thinking outside of the box. We easily trust and rarely question, which is related to how poor quality of education. It is not good to be intelligent in our culture. Instead of students in our K-12 striving for the best, we settle for less, for it is more important not to be stigmatized as "nerds." Social acceptance in middle school and high school means fitting into the athletic or cheer leading culture. The focus and celebration of only athletic performances keep our young people in an oppressive state of mind and a limited role.

As African American, we dichotomize our sexual behavior: abstinence and privatization. Black and white thinking is not feasible for the informational society. We live in an era in which we are bombarded with information, so we need the tools to decipher the good from the bad. The tool is critical though. Sexual and sexuality are not openly discussed, which allows for bisexuality to permeate in the African American very existence depends on our ability to critically think, but we have not be socialized to critically think. Game boards(?), television, and consumerism are the evils that robs of our thinking abilities. Like racism and sexism, we have to live our lives as active participants and not passive standbyers who allow things to happen to them.

Thanks to Oprah Winfrey's show, more of us can now start discussing the issues

Dilaw
April 24 2004, 3:46PM

I, truth be told, did enjoy the show. My SO recorded the show and I have watched it twice since its airing. And although I enjoyed the show and have viewed it TWICE, at a level still feel void in terms of - "Something seemed to just not fit?" I feel as if I'd gotten up from a FEAST of sorts, but completely unfilled. And after reading the comments posted here, I think I am identifying that information I would have wanted to hear on air. I adore Oprah - Period, Case-Closed! However, the show is only allotted for an hour, and then you subtract minutes used for commercials...Well, I guess I had to watch it again. In fact, I've saved it. I'm going to start a discussion group to discuss issues such as the DL and so many other topics, (It's my lil' part...see we ALL have our part to do...and if I don't try to do SOMETHING, I'm simply going to crawl up in a corner and HIDE!) - Not really, that was more rhetoric than anything.
I'm enlightened with the comments I've read here. Keith, keep up the good work. You're doing "Your Part". You represent what I aspire to do. I'm never at a lost for words, but today, I'm not in good form, therefore, I think applause to all of you for your insight and comments is sufficient.

Greater Peace,

Dilaw

Rayman Jackson
April 25 2004, 11:19AM

With brothers like myself being blamed for the rise in HIV in black women, I felt the need to get the following off of my chest. Let's keep it real. We are not monsters. Feel free to forward or publicize this mail if you want. I think both sides should be heard.

on open letter to black women
by Rayman Jackson
First of all, I would like to say emphatically that to all black women - I LOVE YOU!!!!. I respect you. I adore you. To me, there is nothing more powerful nor more sexy nor more divine than seeing you walk proudly in the sunlight of your blackness, your femininity, your sexuality, your sass, your strength, and your spirituality.

But sometimes, I want to taste a man.....

Black woman, to me, you are God's gift to the entire world. All the women of the world want to be like you. They seek to emulate the beauty of your full lips, your broadened nose, your wide hips, and even the crown of hair upon your head. They try to talk like you, they try to walk like you, they even try to swivel their head and pop their gum like you. But, they just can't be you. Only a black woman can be like a black woman.

But sometimes, I want to feel a man.....

There is nothing like making love to a black woman. I never have, nor do I ever plan to merge my body with any woman other than a black woman. There is something about our flesh when it comes together, when our sweat drips from one to the other, and when our sweet juices run together. I love to feel your body when you reach climax and when your loins contract tighter and tighter and then release. I love to hear you when you moan and groan and finally sigh and collapse back into the sheets.

But sometimes, I want to experience a man...

One day, I plan to walk down that aisle and begin a new life with a black woman. I want you, a black woman, to be the mother of my children, the grandmother of my grandchildren, and the great-grandmother of my great-grandchildren. I want my legacy and my destiny to be forever etched with you - A BLACK WOMAN. No other woman will do.

But sometimes, I need to be inside a man...

Not any man, he has to be a black man. Not white, not Asian, not Hispanic. He has to be black.

Sometimes, I don't know why, but sometimes I just want to feel the warm, hard body of another black man laying under my body. Sometimes, I long to hear another man's groan, just like I long to hear your groans. Late in the night, I want to hear him moaning deeply, just like I want to hear you moaning. I desire to feel his body tense up as my manhood enters him just like I desire to feel your body tense up as my manhood enters you. Sometimes, I want to just feel his full round lips wrapped around my manhood just like desire to feel your sweet lips wrapped around my manhood. Sometimes, I just need to pour my juices into another man just like I need to pour my juices into you.

Yes, sometimes I want to taste, touch, feel, penetrate, and experience a man...

And, when I want a man - I WANT A MAN. I don't want some brother who thinks he's a woman or tries to act like one. If I want a woman, I'll get a woman. But, when I want a man, I want a hard, strong, masculine black man. I want a man who's just as manly as me. I want to enter him deeply. I want to feel my pelvis against his buttocks, my chest against his back, and my sweaty skin against his sweaty skin.

I'm not trying to love a man or kiss a man or any of that. I just want to go inside him. There's something about the hardness of his body and the tightness of his backside that makes me want to taste what he's got.

It's not that I don't love black women, I just like to feel myself inside a man.....

It's not that I'm gay, homosexual, bisexual or any of those things. I don't claim any of those titles and so if you ask me if I'm gay, homo, or bi - I'll tell you "No". I'm just a brother that knows what he likes. That's all.

Now, if you ask me if I have sex with men, I'll tell you "No". Yes, I know that lying is wrong and God don't like ugly. But, if I laid with you, and made sweet love to you, and then told you that sometimes I like to go inside a man....you wouldn't want me. Our relationship would be over. And, more than likely, you would "warn" your friends about me. And so, I lie. Not because I am trying to deceive you, but because I just don't think you need to know. All it will do is destroy what we have.

You see, honesty is not as simple as you think....

One day I'll stop, I'll settle down with my black queen. I can't promise that I'll completely stop experiencing men. There's just something about it that draws me. But, I do know that I won't do it nearly as much. Well, I don't know that, but I don't think I'll do it as much.

To the woman I will one day marry : I promise to be a good husband, and a good father to our children, and a good grandfather to our children. I'll love you, and protect you, and cherish you, and make you laugh, and dry your tears, try to give you the kind of home you have always wanted, and do my best to make your life as happy as it can be.

But sometimes, I'll still want a man......

RaymanJackson2@kc.rr.com

http://www.downlowbrother.com

Eric Lawrence
April 25 2004, 12:44PM

NEGRO PLEASE!

I just read Rayman Jackson's post and I had to keep a paperbag next to me. It reeks of denial, duplicity, control and cowardice. THAT is what the D/L life is all about! Do D/L men ever be straight up and say crap (The "S" word fits better here but I'm trying to be cool.) to a woman with whom they are involved. NO! If a straight woman is given the CHOICE of dating a man who commits homosexual acts that is one thing but the D/L life ain't about that. It is all about being a coward and hoping that no one finds out. You are a grown man hiding behind the apron strings of "your woman".

Closeted is one thing . . . you are just keeping your business to yourself but "Down Low" puts those two words in the wrong order. If homosexuality was treated more like a trait like being left or right handed, things would be different. D/L guys are just trying to avoid confrontation and the pejorative conotations that come along with being gay. They don't want to be "labeled" . . . but NEWS FLASH . . . just because we don't say the sky is blue all the time doesn't mean it isn't.

The heterosexual relationship that he describes is all about a lie. It is about two people living in a fantasy world and clinging to something that is not real. The homosexual relationship he describes is all about him using another man. No respect no caring for the guy like he is a human being -- just a place for him to insert his genitals for sexual relief. He is just an emotionally immature and cripled person. What kind of husband/father is that?

Out gay brothers(and sisters)deserve respect! I don't dis feminine gay brothers, I just don't feel them, but I give them props! They are more MEN than the "masculine" D/L brothers. It takes courage and guts to be who you are regarless of what people say about you and the adversity you face.

Evram
April 25 2004, 5:01PM

They always say they want a man but the truth is most DL and straight brothas alike don't know what manhood is. It's honesty and respect for yourself and others. How can you be any more man than a man who is honest about who he is. The answer is you can't.

Cederico
April 25 2004, 7:25PM

Rayman

Thanks for sharing, but denial is still denial. You sound bisexual to me, so why not have the courage to just be open and HONEST?

Larry
April 26 2004, 11:18AM

LOL.......I don't think the sisters will be feeling that Raymond Jackson shit lol.....that's what a lot of so-called "bi" bruthas don't get.

SISTAS DON'T WANT NOOOO MAN WHO HAS FELT, TASTED, OR EVEN SO MUCH AS LOOKED AT ANOTHER MAN'S DICK OR ASS

Many of them may be in HUGE denial about particular man that they want.....but given ALL the information and being allowed to make their own choice in the matter as supposed to sleeping with someone they don't even know gets down like that, the overwhelming majority would throw the fuck up and say hell naw.

If you are TRULY bi (IMO only 5% of the people claiming to be), then be upfront about it and give women the right to choose. Hell, find you a bi woman to be with.

If you are gay and in denial.........get over it. No woman don't want you.

Larry
April 26 2004, 11:22AM

WELL SAID eric lawrence.......

coward niggas.....

Jim
April 26 2004, 1:17PM

At least give Rayman Jackson some props for speaking his truth, though you may find it distorted and disingenuous. We have no right to pass such harsh judgments on him.

Jasmyne
April 26 2004, 3:29PM

The "down low" is basically a new name for an old behavior, men who are sexually active with both men and women who don't disclose their behavior to their female partner and my not disclose their bisexual behavior to their male partners.

The 'down low' tends to be used to describe this behavior in Black communities. But, secret bisexual behavior occurs in all racial/ethnic communities and across racial, class and socio-economic lines.

What is clear is we know very little about the "down low" phenomenon. There are no studies of men on the 'down low' and announcements of widespread unsafe HIV risk behaviors among these men are premature. There is NO data to measure the pervasiveness of the behavior. There is NO data to determine what behaviors these men are engaging in with their male partners. In short, we don't know how many men are on "the down low", nor do we know if they are engaging in risky sexual behavior with their male partners.

The down low needs to be better understood.

Terms are being interchanged to describe different populations:
1. Black men who engage in sexual behavior with other men, but do not identify themselves as gay or bisexual.

2. Closeted Gay men who only engage in sexual contact with men, but do not want their behavior made public.

3. Black homosexual men who prefer the phrase "Down low" over the term gay or bisexual because they do not relate to those terms culturally.

4. Young men who are experimenting with their sexuality and are not yet ready to claim a sexual orientation identity.

The two studies that are being cited widely in the media focus on different populations.

The Young Men's Survey focus on Men who have sex with men, regardless of how they identify.

The North Carolina outbreak investigation, are primarily 'gay-identified' men not men on the down low.

We do not know where men on the 'down low' lie on the spectrum of HIV risk behaviors compared to other men.

We do not know what proportion of HIV cases among Black women are due to Black men on the 'down low'.

Black women are being infected by different routes:
1. Injecting drug use
2. Dirty needles (tattoos, etc)
3. Sex with men who are/were injecting drug users
4. Sex with men who were infected through heterosexual contact
5. Sex with men who were infected through homosexual contact

Blame, shame, silence, denial and stigma are all barriers to effective HIV prevention.

Pervasive and deadly messages that young black men and women hear:

Black Men hear:
1. Black men are players
2. Black men are not gay
3. Gays are rejected
4. Black manhood is defined by sexual prowess
These messages lead to dishonesty and secrets

Black Women hear:
1. You must have a man
2. There are a shortage of good black men
3. Black men are no good
These messages lead to low self esteem and low expectations

Solutions:
Break the silence

Audre Lorde said "Your silence will not protect you. The silence is killing us.

End the denial: AIDS is everybody's problem

Stop the stigma: Every one of us is a child of god. No one deserves to get AIDS. As long as any one of us is at risk every one of us is at risk.

Get informed
Get tested
Get treated
Get involved

Nee
April 27 2004, 9:36PM

Self-acceptance is not harsh. It's just a hard thing to do for some people. It feels too risky to be honest with one's self.

Ironically, some people find it easier to be considered D/L-cheating-dishonestly with yourself and your partner, than bisexual, homosexual, pansexual, or none-of-your-damn business. :-O. Are those words so dirty? It reminds me of the Black image long ago when Blacks felt dirty because of the image they were/are portrayed as. Read "The Bluest Eyes" by Toni Morrison if you don't understand me.

Though, Jasmyne... www.downlowbrother.com does have information on two or three statistics on DL brothers. It's actually not as hard to get a statistic about cheating folks as one may think.

scaredsista
April 29 2004, 1:45PM

"We can't blame our man for lying to us if we're not using protection on our own. "

I agree to a certain extent. What about Wives? What about women who have been involved with the same man for years! Only to find out that their man has been creeping , and then to find out that they are HIV+. Why should someone married be thinking that they should use a condom with their spouse? Its a shame, and Im sorry but I firmly believe that the rapid spread of HIV amongsts black women today is due to the men living the double life. Statistics show that the easiest way to be infected with HIV is if your a woman having unprotected sex with someone whos HIV+ or if your a man having (receiving) unprotected ANAL SEX from someone HIV+. The risk is very low for heterosexual men, not sayin there is no risk, but low risk.

alicia
April 30 2004, 10:39AM

alleged DL bro porn star...industry AIDS crisis

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/04/30/porn.moratorium.ap/index.html

fyi
ab

the truth about openly gay mens feelings bout DL MEN
May 2 2004, 12:04AM

ATTENTION ATTENTION I,D LIKE FOR EVERYONE TO READ THIS VERY CLEARLY AFTER THE TRUTH IS ABOUT TO BE TOLD ABOUT OPENLY GAY MENS BULLCRAP THEORIES OF DL MEN..FIRST OFF

AFTER WATCHING THAT SHOW I WAS DISGUSTED TOO, FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT THE RADIO SPOKE ON THE OPRAHS DL SHOW AND THE DJ'S WERE LIKE I DONT SEE WHAT WAS SO IN THE CLOSET BOUT J.L KING HE SEEMED CLOCKABLE TO ME...AND IT WAS THE TRUTH THIS MAN DOES NOT REPRESENT THE DL LIFESTYLE AT ALL

LET ME TELL YOU THIS MAN AND OTHER GAY MEN ARE NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF CONTRADICTING HYPROCRITICAL FAKE ME OUT LIARS WHO PRETEND THEY GIVE A DAMN ABOUT BLACK WOMEN BEING AFFECTED WITH HIV

THE TRUTH IS THEY ARE LONELY AND MISERABLE THEY WANT EVERY GAY PERSON IN AMERICA TO BE LIKE THEM OPENLY GAY... TO COVER UP THERE LONLINESS THEY FIEND FOR SOCIETY TO ACCEPT HOMOSEXUALITY SO THEY LOOK AT MEN WHO CHOOSE TO BE CONSERVATIVE WITH THERE SEXUALITY AS DESTROYING THERE NEEDS AND WANTS SO THEY LIE AND BRAINWASH WOMAN AND OTHERS INTO BELIEVING ALL DL MEN ARE AIDS GIVERS ALL DL MEN ARE IN DENIAL...

THIS MAN IS ON THE COVER OF THE JET MAGAZINE INSIDE HE SAYS I WANT TO LET MEN KNOW TO COME OUT AND THEY NO LONGER HAVE TO HURT OR HURT FOR OTHERS

NEGRO PLEASE!!!!HOW GENERALIZING, OPENLY GAY MEN LIKE HIM FAIL TO REALIZE WHAT WORKS FOR ONE DOESNT FOR THE NEXT MAN, WHATS MAKES HIM HAPPY DOESNT EVERYONE ELSE. J.L KING IN MY OPINION WAS NEVER D.L IF YOU ASK ME HIS CLOCKABLE FEM TENDICIES HE SHOWED ON OPRAH CLEARLY TELLS ME HE WAS TEASED AND QUESTIONED AND BUGGED ABOUT HIS SEXUALITY AS HE GREW OLDER AND OLDER AND HE DENIED IT AND PEOPLE WERE NOT FALLING FOR IT...

THE BIGGEST THING I WANT TO GET AT IS THIS DENIAL

EVER HEARD OF THE TERMS ITS WHATS INSIDE THAT COUNTS BASICALLY IF A MAN TELLS YOU HE ISNT BISEXUAL OR GAY AND YOU KNOW HE IS DOES NOT MEAN HE IS INSECURE OR LYING TO HIMSELF YOU HAVE DL MEN AND WOMAN OUT THERE WHO KNOW TO THERESELVES WHAT THERE SEXUALITY IS BUT ARE CONSERVATIVE AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING CONSERVATIVE WITH YOUR PERSONAL BUSINESS SO JUST BECAUSE SHE OR HE DOESNT TELL YOUR NOSEY ASS HE IS GAY OR BISEXUAL DOES NOT MAKE HIM OR HER INSECURE OR IN DENIAL,

YOUR IN DENIAL WHEN YOU TELL YOURSELF A LIE NOT TO THE WORLD I AM DL BISEXUAL MAN AND I HAVE EXPRESSED THE I,M NOT GAY OR BISEXUAL THING AROUND FOLKS AND STILL KNOW TO MYSELF I AM BISEXUAL I STILL GO HOME AND AFTER TELLING OR EXPRESSING TO HE OR SHE I,M NOT GAY OR BISEXUAL GET ON THE COMPUTER AND TELL THE NEXT MAN I LIKE WHO IS GAY OR BISEXUAL THAT ASK WHAT I AM I SAY I AM BISEXUAL...SO WERES THE DENIAL AT??

LIVING LIFE A LIE.....NEGRO PLEAAASSEEE ONCE AGAIN IF I TELL YOU I,M NOT GAY OR BI DOES NOT MEAN I TELL MYSELF I AM NOT GAY OR BISEXUAL,TO SIT AND SAY DL MEN MEANS THEY ARE IN DENIAL OF THERE SEXUALITY IS SO STEREOTYPICAL AND THOUGH I HAVE ENCOUNTERED DL GUYS THAT DO DENY THEY ARE GAY AND BISEXUAL TO THE POINT ITS OBVIOUS THEY DENY IT TO THEMSELVES AND KEEP TELLING THEMSELVES THEY ARE STRAIGHT WHEN THEY KNOW THEY ARE GAY OR BI STILL THAT PERCENTAGE IS NOT EVEN HALF OF ALL DL MEN..

LIVING LIFE A LIE IS A MAN WHO ISNT REAL WITH HIMSELF A MAN WHO FIENDS TO HAVE SEX WITH MEN BUT WONT DO IT AND STRUGLLES NOT TO, TELLING HIMSELF OK I,M STRAIGHT I KNOW I AM WHEN HE KNOWS DAMN WELL SOONS HIS BOY BENDS OVER AND SEES HIS ASS HIS DICKS GETS HARD...THATS LIVING LIFE A LIE!!MANY MANY DL MEN ARE VERY AWARE THEY ARE GAY AND BI AND J.L KING ISNT AROUND THEM 24/7 TO EVEN KNOW IF THEY ARE LIVING A LIE CAUSE IF A GAY MAN OR WOMAN TELLS YOU HE AINT GAY OR BI BUT THEN GOES HOME AND TELLS SOMEONE ELSE HE,S GAY OR BI ON THE NET MEETS THEM AND HAVE SEX THEN WERES THE LIVING LIFE A LIE AT???

^^IF YOU ASK ME THATS LIVING THE TRUTH LOL...

YOU HAVE SEVERAL DFFERENT CASES OF DL MEN

J.L KING NEVER SAYS THE WORDS MOST OR MANY OR SOME HE MAKES IT SEEM ALL MEN ON THE DL LIKE THAT AND TO BE HONEST MOST MEN ON THE D.L ARENT EVEN WHAT HE DESCRIBED...

(((MAJORITY OF THE DL MEN I KNOW ARENT INTO FEMININE MEN,YOU HAVE SOME THAT ARE YOU HAVE SOME THAT LIKE TO GET DONE BY DRAG QUEENS BUT ITS PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT IF YOUR GONNA BE DISCREET WALKING THE STREETS WITH A FEM QUEEN ISNT THE WAY TO BE DISCREET, MOST DL MEN I KNOW LIKE THERE MEAT TOUGH LIKE THEM,I SURE DO, THE FEMININE MALE IS A TURN-OFF ALOT OF DL MEN RATHER STAY SEXING FEMALES IF THEY WANTED A FEMININE MALE I FEEL THE SAME WAY)))

NOTICE I SAID SOME,MANY,MAJORITY,SOMETHING J.L KING NEVER SAID OR SAYS THEREFORE THAT MAKES HIM A GENERALIZING

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN I HAVE SHUT DOWN SO MANY OPENLY GAY MEN WHO PROTEST THE SAME BULL J.L KING HAS WITH MY FACTS AND TRAPPING THEM IN THERE BELIEFS LIES AND CONTRADICTIONS AND COVER-UP TO THE POINT WERE THEY MUST INSULT ME WITH NAMES LIKE A UNCIVILIZED CHILD IN ANGER WHICH DOES NOTHING BUT MAKE IT MORE EVIDENT THAT WHAT I HAVE SAID IS EATING THERE CONSCIOUS THAT ITS TRUE AND JEOPARDIZING AND THE CRAP THEY HAVE BEEN BELIEVING IN FOR SO LONG USUALLY WHEN THAT HAPPENS I TELL THEM THIS LAUGH AND WALK-OFF!!!

THE DL LIFESTYLE SURELY AINT NOTHING NEW ANCIENT PEOPLES FROM AFRICAN PHAROAHS AND QUEENS TO EUROPEANS HAVE HAD SEX WITH THE SAME SEX AND IT DAMN SURE AINT ONLY BLACK PEOPLE..I WENT TO A SURBURBAN HIGH SCHOOL IN MARYLAND WHICH WAS LIKE A MELTING POT HAD ITS FAIR SHARE OF WHITES BLACK SPANISH AND THEM WHITE BOYS JOCKS THAT YOU SEE WHITEGIRLS DIE OVER ARE THE SAME WHITEBOYS THAT GET ON SITES LIKE BLACKPLANET.COM AND MIGENTE.COM AND BEG BLACKS AND HISPANICS FOR SOME CHOCOLATE DICK BEHIND OLE CINDY OR JESSICAS BACCK...HELL I FUCKED THE CAPTAIN OF THE FOOTBALL TEAM AND SOCCER BOTH OF THEM WERE WHITE WELL ONE WAS WHITE AND HALF ASIAN

J.L KING IS THE LAUGHING STOCK BELIEVE IT OR NOT I,VE HEARD TO MANY RADIO STATIONS AND SEEN TO MANY INTERNET SITES WERE MEN AND EVEN BLACK WOMAN THEMSELVES WERE LIKE I KNOW WHAT DL THUG IS AND AFTER WATCHING OPRAH J.L KING AND THE GUY WITH DREADS SURELY ARENT D.L

IF A MAN IS MARRIED OR IN A RLEATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN ITS BEST HE LETS HIS GIRL KNOW NOT BECAUSE THIS BE HONEST BULLCRAP J,L KING SPEAKS ITS BECAUSE MARRIAGE AND RELATIONSHIP MEAN TRUTHFULNESS WITH EACH OTHER AND NO ADULTERY..

I HAVE SEX WITH WOMAN AND ARENT IN A RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM AND THE ONLY THING SHE NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT ME PERSONAL WISE WHEN IT COMES TO SEX IS IF I AM HIV OR STD FREE WHICH I HAVE NO PROBLEM AND LETTING HER NO AS I WOULD WANT HER TO LET ME KNOW HER STATUS WHO I FUCK IS NONE OF HER BUSINESS BECAUSE WE SURELY ARENT MARRIED OR DATING SHES JUST A ASSOCIATE OR FRIEND THAT HAD SEX WITH ME CAUSE WE WERE DAMN HORNY

OPENLY GAY MEN LIKE J.L KING ARE JUST PLAIN OLE MISERABLE LONELY MEN WHO WANT EVERY GAY PERSON TO BE LIKE THEM OPEN..OPEN IS WHAT MAKES THEM HAPPY NOT EVERYONE ELSE YOU CAN BE FREE TO YOURSELF JUST BECAUSE YOU TELL THE WORLD YOUR GAY OR BISEXUAL DOESNT SPRINKLE SECURITY AND HONESTY OVER YOU ITS HONESTY WHEN YOU CAN TELL YOURSELF YOU GAY OR BISEXUAL IF YOU KNOW IT REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOUR OPENLY GAY OR DISCREET....

the truth about openly gay men feelings bout DL MEN
May 2 2004, 12:05PM

I JUST WANTED TO CORRECT MY FIRST STATEMENTS SAYING WHAT OPENLY GAY MEN THINK ABOUT DL MEN I MEANT WHAT MAJORITY OF OPENLY GAY MEN I,VE ENCOUNTERED WHO CRITICIZE DL MEN THINK?

Me
May 5 2004, 6:27PM

Your article is wildly contradictory from everything I have learned from AIDS activists. The statement that black gay and bisexual men have the highest infection rate in the country is inconsistent with every lecture, seminar and PSA I have heard stating that Black WOMEN are the highest infection rate in the country and assuming that that is true it seems more than conclusive that if transferrance (sp?) from female to male is far more difficult than male to female and male to male, it seems only natural that the media would focus on the DL man as the basis for the high infection rate in heterosexual Black females.

Further, it is more than a little naive as well as overly simplistic to simply state that personal responsibility is the cure for the raise in HIV. How many married and committed couples are using condoms?

donald
May 6 2004, 11:29AM

I am very distraught and saddened by the rampant and flagrant distortions of facts and realities of the DL issue. I'm a black, same gender loving man and very proud of my sexuality and who I am. There is no question in my mind- I'm Gay, Black and proud. There are hundreds of brothers and sisters like me, and I must believe that many feel the same way as I do- angry and sad. I'm angry that I live in a society that passes judgement on men who want to actualize their sexual desires, but feel that they must practice deception and dishonesty. I'm angry at them for not having the courage to be real and honest about who they are and what desires they have.

I am angry that many people in the world will look at me and not see me, but see only what they feel the DL brothers represent- lies and deception. I'm angry that they too suffer societal misunderstanding and prejuices because of how they choice to show love and affection. I'm angry at JL King and I'm angry at Oparh for feeding into the hype.

I'm saddend that while the distortions are being created and perpetuated, many of my brothers and sisters die daily from HIV/AIDS. I work in public health. I see the destruction of HIV everyday. Sometimes I hang my head and cry and ask God why?I do what I can do to make a difference, and I'm sadden that my work and the work of others go unnoticed while my people turn their heads the other way. I wonder how long can I go on?

No one has talked about the issue of Fidelity. If you are suppose to be in a committed relationship, then damn be committed or get out!

jp
May 6 2004, 9:15PM

The evolution of "On the Down Low."

The term's current meaning has a curious history. Here Keith stated that " The down low is a term used to describe black men who have sex with men but do not identify as gay. The term entered the media lexicon about three years ago as a sexy and sexual explanation for the spread of HIV among straight black women." He has elsewhere defined is as a term used to describe black men who have sex with men but do not identify as gay. The term entered the media lexicon about three years ago as a sexy and sexual explanation for the spread of HIV among straight black women." When J.L. King educator-turned-author released his book, "On the Down Low" he helped popularize the phrase "living on the down low" or "DL" to describe men like himself: those who have sex with men but do not consider themselves gay or bisexual. They are not effeminate and often have girlfriends or wives who are unaware of their double lives. This is rather a curious evolution. Actually, the definition down low: simply means keeping something a secret, so nobody knows anything about it. Keep it on the down low.

Two hop-hop songs seem to compete cor coining the phrase:

"Down Low" by R. Kelly

Listen girl you want me but he needs you
Yet you're tellin' me that everything is cool/
Tryin' to convince me baby to do as you say
Just go along and see things your way

And keep it on the down low
Nobody has to know
We can keep it on the down low
Nobody has to know

Secret lovers is what you wanna be
While making love to him girl you're silently calling on me
What is a man to do in a situation like this?
I feel there is something that I don't wanna miss

And Down Low [Bizarre]

Yeah... This is dedicated to the big broads.

I'm involved with this lady and she weighs 380,
And she barely can fit in my Mercedes,
She's takin' my dough, my bank account, lookin low,
And I'm bout to throw her ass out in the snow,
I buy her burgers and steaks, and all type of stuff,
But KFC and Ponderosa's just not enough,

[Chorus]
Dowwwnn Low
Fat Ho, keep it on the downnn low
Don't you be tellin your friends,
Keep it on the dowwwn low, fat ho
I thought KFC was enough,
Keep it on the Dowwwn Low, Fat Ho
I gave you all my food,

You came to my place high off Picardi
Had to learn to strip dance to my boys bachelor party,
She gave me head and broke my bed,
And there's really nothin else to be said

Now keep it on the Dowwwn Low, fat ho,
Keep it on the Downnn Low,
I'm tired of shoppin at MaryAnne Plus,
Keep it on the downnnn low, fat ho
Supersized combo,
Keep it on the downnn low fat ho,
?? a very fat ho ??
On the downnn low
You had to go and steal my cheese curls

Keep it on the Downnnn Low "

It's a curious history that essentially refers to so called "straight" black men who secretly have sex with other men behind the backs of their wives and girl friends. If you're white it boils down to little more than being a low down closet case. I don't particularly care what guys do in the closet for, to quote Keith in an earlier article "it's not a matter of what you do but how you do it." (I.e. do it safe and don't pull someone else into Hell with you for there is nothing particularly hip about being low down.)

But can someone clarify this for me? In "Holler if You Hear Me" author Michael Dyson, in his superb 2001 bio of Tupac Shakur, states that black actor Larenz Tate (a friend of Tupac's) "was clearly 'on the down low.'' Was Dyson using the term as we understand it today? If anyone knows holler back.

Fred
May 7 2004, 9:14AM

Good piece Keith !!!

HIV transmission means one thing : NO CONDOM !!!
A person in a relationship should wait for 3 months of faithfull commitment to make a test and then forget about condoms.

Do sisters do that ? Do brothers insist on this ?

Staight brothers can also be contaminated by non-caring sisters ? Are DL brothers to blame ?

And what about the very taboo prison sex issue ?
Is a brother back from prison on the DL ? What kind of sex did he have for theses months or years ? Willingly or not ...

jp
May 7 2004, 8:36PM

Fred;

I appreciated your comments but you don't seem to get the safe sex issue entirely correct � perhaps it's because we don't really know that is or we delude ourselves. HIV is not that easily transmitted. It requires literally injecting it, by some means, into the bold. It is unlikely that a woman can pass HIV to her partner sans condom. It would required that the guy have an open ulcer on or in his penis. Infection is more likely to occur in the other direction from active to passive partner. Of course the presence of other virus can help carry it into the blood streem without an opening. Gay or straight doesn't matter that much and this is born out by the many mixed sero-status relationship in which unprotected sex is common but in which the uninfected partner remains uninfected for many years.

Most people (80%) do not use condoms for oral sex because transmission in that manner is doubtful since stomach acids render HIV benign. But it can happen. To get HIV in that manner you again need to inject HIV into the blood stream. For instance, if a guy smokes cigarettes heavily and has gums that tend to bleed while brushing (this is a common problem with heavy smokers or those with periodontal problems) that's a perfect means of transmission. Even an open sore on a guys penis can not transmit it unless the virus has a path into the blood stream. Likewise oral sex where one has open ulcers in their stomach can be an effective means of transmission. Where the one performing oral sex has no such problems it's probably entirely safe even if the partner is positive. Then again the presence of other viruses can help ship it into the blood stream
The problem is that most of us don't know if we have an opening somewhere inside our gut. So we take a risk when we do that. The chances are slim but they do exist.

Waiting for test results is fine if the relationship is truly monogamous but people do lie and cheat and let's face it men can be dogs. Keith Boykin(who I presume is negative) has said in one of his past articles that he has never once asked a partners HIV status. Now here is a wise man. I never ask either. People lie and we all know there are people like that out there. Unless one intends to do something unsafe the issue really is irrelevantforthe most part.

The prison issue, as you point out, is a nasty one. But sex in prison is not like sex at home. It usually does not occur in places where it's possible to pull out a condom even if you had one. And I am sure that if a prisoner wanted to get condoms he could get them just as they get many other controlled substances. If you know anything about our prison system you know that just about anything you can get on the street you can get in prison � even right there in the infirmary. I suspect that sex is not the only means of transmission in prison. A prisoner can get injectable drugs in prison almost as easily as on the street. So I suspect that a portion of the infection comes from dirty needles. What's the solution? To have free needle exchange in prison? We know that will never happen. But distribution of condoms at least addresses part of the peoblem if not all.

Education is certainly part of the answer. Safe sex is really all it takes. But honesty, a respect for life, and personal integrity are essential. Lets face it, in prison you are not likely to find honest men with personal integrity who respect the lives and rights of others. We can hardly expect that on the outside, so can we expect it of convicted felons?

I don't say I have the answers -- I don't. But I only suggest that the problem is not as simple as some seem to think. One thing is for sure, it will get worse before it gets better.

T-BAK
May 7 2004, 10:42PM

I FIND IT FUNNY HOW DL THUGS DISLIKE FEMININE DUDES YET THE FEM DUDES LIKE THEM LOL...ANYWAYS

i criticize dl men who are in relationships or marriage with women and not using rubbers or deceiving them with rleationship and marriage comes truth and honesty...however i dont believe this bullcrap that every dl person should out and be proud like the guy who called himself THE TRUTH ABOUT OPENLY GAY MENS FEELINGS ABOUT DL MEN said you can have dl or conservative brothers out there who are secure with there sexuality and and proud they just keep it there business and just becuase you choose to tell people your gay does not sprinkle security or pride over you whoever thinks coming out a so called closet is being proud of who you are and secure thats the biggest bullcrap i ever heard in my life i know to many openly gay men who are insecure and lonely and miserable like the ones who criticize dl men and pretend as they care for woman being transmitted hiv and other std,s from brothers...brothers like j.l king and openly gay men need to realize no MATTER WHAT DL MEN WILL ALWAYS EXIST BLACK,WHITE,SPANISH,ASIAN whatever there is no percentage of whose more dl its humanity period it has and will always existed and if you all were smart you,d know your own u.s government is responsible are the creators of H.I.V and made it contactable through sex why?because minorities in america are really the majority of the worlds population and just only minorities in america and its predicted in 2030 america will be majority asian/latino/and black and whites are surely not gonna let this go down without a fight so they create diseases like AIDS AND DIABETES AND CANCER AND lead majority of the population to believe these diseases come from animals or sex or HOT SAUCE LOL whites are not reproducing nearly as much as asians/latinos/blacks so they create these diseases that kill us off i guess the good thing is more minorities are being borned and produced than the ones the government has killed off with these diseases....

Harold Thompson
May 19 2004, 9:30PM

I am a gay white man and I agree with you. The tools for prevention are out there and the tools for education are out there.

I worked next door to an AIDS food pantry for a number of years and watched skin colors change over time. That made me very angry. I asked everybody why, but nobody could give me a substantial answer...until I talked with an upper middle-aged black man who grew up poor and worked his way to a well-paid position. He told me that the majority of black people in particular (with or at risk to contract HIV) don't have enough of (or have railroaded into believing that they cannot get) an education to be able to read between the lines and find what resources that are available. With American history (as it is, not as it is written), that statement rings so true.

These people feel so held back that making noise will do nothing. In part, they are right. If Oprah will do her homework she could do much to help. Will she make the right choice? Does she know the truth? Maybe its about time to tell her.

Dee
May 22 2004, 2:23AM

I'm a married, black female who ADORES her husband and just wanted to read some sort of perspective from your side. I have been with my husband 15 years now and if I knew he was having sex with another man--it would literally kill me. Not because I'm desperate, or ugly or fat(FAR from it by the way..hello!)..but because he deceived me and put my life in potential danger. I'm sitting here and I'm SHOCKED at how the anger has been transferred to Oprah. It is a one hour show that "touched" on a topic that we as a people don't want in the open. You all know black folk don't like airing their dirty laundry. Well guess, what, we're CHOKING in it. As someone had pointed out.."if you're GAY, OPEN AND EDUCATED" then that's fine--but if you're not on the Down Low--then why are YOU offended? I can't speak for any of you gay men on this site--but I can speak about the other half of this equation. You shouldn't be mad at Oprah for discussing this..or at women who want to believe that their man is truly theirs..or J.L. for calling them dumbazz niggaz out..you should be mad that the D.L. brothers are giving the "open" gay man a bad name. If you don't want to be lied to--shit, neither do I. Spare us all from the self-righteous indignations because everyone..including myself..KNOW a brother who is as queer as a two dollar bill and WILL NOT admit it and keeps him a cover..and its OUR fault? No. Fuck that. Unacceptable. If you like dick...to hell with it--YOU LIKE DICK!! I can't change that and I wouldn't even delude myself in trying. Trust me, if a guy tells a girl that he goes both ways--I can ASSURE YOU..the dude who said he can't keep them off his dick would have NO PROBLEMS with that anymore..if she does want him after that, she is THROWED. To the guy who said that--all you have to do is tell the women in your life that you like taking it up the ass and she'll burn off so quick you won't even see the ash on her black ass!! Bottomline, if you ask a dude if he was DL--he'd go ballistic, either because his cover's been blown or you've offended him but we would NEVER get a simple "yes". Hell no--they'd rather rot in hell first than OPENLY admitting to sleeping with men..even ..if its with someone they claim to care about and THAT is the problem. Case closed.

marshon
May 26 2004, 2:46PM

I've just read the article and the majority of the comments following the piece. I just wanted to add my own two cents in regards to this issue. I am an openly gay black man thru and thru. It is not easy to be out, because I have taken and will continue to take flack until my last breath for the choices I have made in regards to being myself. It just upsets me to see that people who are supposedly strong and masculine feel that they have to be ashamed of who they are, just because society doesn't accept who they sleep with. Who gives a happy fuck, is what I want to know?!!!? I personally don't make it a point to walk up to every person that I meet and say "Hi, I'm Mr X...and I like men." That's no strangers business. But for the people who love me and care about me, that is pertinent information for them to know. It is good to know that if I have a problem in my personal life, that I have someone I can trust and talk to; without having to change pronouns just to protect the innocent, ya know. I think DL bruthas need to learn love themselves and begin to understand that the only thing that makes you gay is who you choose to sleep with, that's all. How you act is based on many different things, the two most important facts being that you are created from male and female genes. Just because you were born male does not mean that you are going to act like society's definition of a man all the time. Fuck what society thinks about you and learn to love yourself for all of your idiosynchroncies, male and female. Surround yourself with those folk who love you no matter what and you'll be alright. And most important, love yourself first. You can't expect for anybody else to love all of you if you have no idea how to love all of you!!! I think that's my piece. Hope I wasn't too erratic. Take care blackfolks and continue to know who you are so that you can who you ain't.

leslie
May 28 2004, 6:24PM

This is definitely from a man's perspective. Working the HIV field, I've witnessed numerous women who were infected by their husbands. So when you're married and want to have a baby with your husband of one or two years, are you going to use protection? The answer is no and if women, especially sisters, really began to demand consistent and unconditional condom use and repeated 3-6 month HIV and STD testing, most, not all, but most brothers would have no part of it. So while women need to be honest and responsible about their own behavior, let's not do the usual and excuse brothers from taking responsibility as well. Black men have always been demonized - which is not cool - but that doesn't mean you neglect your SHARE of responsibility. And in response to the article, Dr. Gail Wyatt of UCLA has been writing about the complexities of black sexuality (not just straight/gay) for decades. Maybe people should do some research before they state that there is no information. Otherwise, this was a pretty thoughtful piece.

Evan
June 24 2004, 12:26PM

Well, I am a teenage black male who has been struggling with the issue of DL for quite some time. I live in a part of the country that despises gays in ever possible way. I don't know what would occur if I were to be openly "bisexual" in society. Some may agree that liking both sexes is not possible, but in my case it is. I do, however, tend to prefer females over males in relationships etc. I have not told a single person about my condition, yet my pontification remains consistent. Being "DL" is my only means of admiring the beautiful black male without hassle. I have not had sex with a man before, nor do I plan to. I understand the hazards of same-sex intercourse, especially with a black male whom I haven't known for a while...

Which brings me to the point of my explanation:
Black men are being DL because when they were younger, liking boys was unacceptable by their parents. Disowning, hate, and offensive violence are all results of being open about their feelings. I'm sure that each of these reasons are terrifying to any child aware of them. I don't know what I'm going to do about my problems, but I realize that keeping it underwraps is not the way...

Denice
June 30 2004, 9:49PM

be real with your self
then you don't have to be on the down low. Stop blaming people

ms. t
July 1 2004, 9:31AM

you know what i really think about this DL mess. God made adam and eve, not adam and eric, not eve and ann. alot of times with want to justify our wrong. but if you feel what your doing is right in god eyesight keep doing it. alot of times we want to say people did it in the bible. so what your trying to say is that your living like the people in the bible. get real. live your life and stop trying to put other people in your mess. god see's all things. so when its your time to leave this old earth, your see what god really approved of. my god bless each and every one of you and your decisions in life. but what ever you do think about "what will just do".

ms. t
July 1 2004, 9:38AM

correction: "WHAT WILL JESUS DO?"

SANDY
July 7 2004, 7:25PM

Thanks for your amazing article.
It was the first truthful one I've
read about DL.

jamal
September 6 2004, 11:42PM

What up everyone-

I AM A GAY MAN AND I CONSIDER MYSELF GAY BECAUSE I DONT DEAL WITH WOMEN, I HAVE READ MANY OF THE ENTRYS AND SEE THAT YOU GUYS AND GALS ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING BY SPEAKING ABOUT THE ISSUES OF DL MEN. I WAS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A DL BROTHER AND WHEN THE RELATIONSHIP ENDED IT WAS DISTROYED BECAUSE THIS YOUNG MAN LIED SO BADDLY. BOTH OF US ARE IN THE SAME FRATERNITY AND IT WAS A REAL UGLY ENDING, SEE HIS DL BEHAVIOR WAS BROUGHT TO THE LIGHT WITH FORCE. I CAN HONESTLY SAY THAT DL STANDS FOR DA LIARS.

sonja
September 10 2004, 6:18PM

How can you tell if a man is on the down low??? Please let me know... Somebody, anybody.....Help a sister out.

Richard J. Rosendall
October 18 2004, 2:53PM

I looked up Keith's article because I was sitting with my ex and his boyfriend and some others at DC's Reel Affirmations gay filmfest to see the first couple episodes of Patrik Ian Polk's fabulous new series-in-development, Noah's Arc, and the subject of Mr. King's DL book arose.

There is a lot of legitimate anger among my black gay friends about Mr. King for his exploitation of the issue. As Keith points out, if you want to combat an epidemic, it would sure help to treat ALL of the at-risk groups with understanding and respect, rather than demonizing one group and remaining in denial about homosexuality to such an extent that many members of the group in question see little alternative but to live secret lives. One begins to suspect that some folks would rather have a group they can scapegoat than to end the scourge of HIV/AIDS.

Scanning the comments that have been posted to this page since April, I see quite a range of viewpoints -- some wonderfully enlightened, and others less so (like the ironically named "Telling the Truth," who evidently wouldn't know the truth if it smacked him in the head, and Raymond Jackson, who knows what he wants and to hell with the consequences for his partners whom he blithely admits lying to as he continues pouring his juices into them. Hey, if he really thinks black women are such magnificent queens, shouldn't he treat them better?) So clearly Keith Boykin tapped into a large underground stream that needs more exploration.

Which in its way brings me back to the first "Noah's Arc" episodes that I watched with several hundred enthusiastic black gay men last Saturday. Patrik Ian Polk has crafted a smart, funny, sexy, fast-paced, and well-acted series that I sure hope is picked up for a full run (he said something about being in discussions with a Viacom-owned channel). The main characters in Noah's Arc are a group of black gay men in L.A. who are friends, and the show is about their sex lives. If you think that sounds shallow, you greatly underestimate Mr. Polk, whose considerable talents were previously on display in his movie "Punks," which featured the luscious and compelling actor Rockmond Dunbar (who I was happy to learn has agreed to appear in an episode of Noah's Arc).

When Noah's Arc hits TV screens by next spring (it is to be hoped), it will be a hugely important moment in the history of the black gay community. Here is an uninhibited, unapologetic, sharp, knowing, full-out celebration of black gay male sexuality. There is nothing hesitant about either the script or the actors. The viewer does not feel his intelligence insulted for a moment -- a noteworthy achievement in itself, considering the amount of brainless crap on TV these days. Polk mentioned that some people had asked him why he was putting so much focus on his characters' sex lives, to which he responded, "Why the @$%*#! not?" Exactly. The same standard should apply to Polk as applied to the creator of Sex In the City.

What Noah's Arc will contribute, beyond being highly entertaining, is to help eliminate the invisibility and the pejorative caricatures of black gay men. Cultural progress helps pave the way for political progress. No doubt there will be some voices, like some of those posting comments on this page, who will loudly cry that the images on Noah's Arc are disgusted, blah blah blah, and they don't want to see it -- meaning that they don't want anyone else to be allowed to see it. Well, I write this just 15 days before a crucial presidential election in which many basic American freedoms and values are at stake. And what that illustrates is that we best defend our freedom by exercising it. So here's to you, Keith, and here's to Patrik-Ian Polk, and to my beloved ex who continues to battle it out from his rare perch as a black executive at a major news organization, and to so many others who do not stop to ask permission before they defend their own views and dreams and lives. Power is not given to you, it is asserted and exercised by you. And I find that much more exciting and satisfying than Raymond Jackson's poetic flights about sometimes needing a black man's hard muscled body beneath him (but god forbid he should kiss him or love him). Here is one white man to say to Mr. Jackson: do your thing, but don't lay that trip on my black gay brothers -- because whether they are masculine or feminine or somewhere in between, I have known a lot of them and their honesty and self-respect and concern for others makes them more "real men" any day of the week than a guy who thinks only about his own needs and who lies to his partners of both sexes. And more and more of them are telling their own stories, so watch out.

Richard J. Rosendall
Washington, D.C.

Kreme of Da Krop
October 31 2004, 5:59PM

MANY say that it is not possible to ADMIRE both sex, but I am HERE to tell you that it is POSSIBLE......

Q
December 2 2004, 9:01AM

I have a problem.I want anyone to help. I want someone to e-mail me and tell me how can I tell when someone is on the down low. I know some of the clues, but I was wondering if there was anyone who could give me some more clues. If anyone could help me out, e-mail me at cajenkin001@npsk12.com Thank you

The Down Low Returns

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