What The Bible Really Says About Marriage

Laura
February 19 2004, 6:01PM

"Why do these so-called Christians spend so much time misquoting the story of Adam and Eve but never mention any of the Biblical passages with which they disagree?"

Because...they are hypocrites with control issues?

Roger Pollard
February 19 2004, 6:16PM

All of us need to remind the rest of the nation that for this very reason there is a tradition we have named "separation of chuch and state." We have it to protect us all from misguided zealots.

Kola Boof
February 19 2004, 7:02PM

Whenever I had sex with a man or got pregnant with my sons...I never once thought of the bible...or of getting permission from it.

Of course...since I'm not gay...I HAVE THAT RIGHT.

When Thomas says he will legally marry me and take me back to live in his country...provided I give up my career...the BIBLE indicates that I should do just that.

But I won't.

In other words...one of the things I love most about AMERICA is that there is separation of Church and State.

This is the operative axis upon which you should be fighting. Civil Rights.

Marriage of Gays has NOTHING to do with the Bible.

It should be a Civil Right.

Dee
February 19 2004, 7:04PM

Unlike many people, I personally believe the Bible officially supports homophobia and that its stance is pretty clear. Why any person would follow a religion that condemns their very existence is way beyond me.

Kola Boof
February 19 2004, 7:32PM

I agree Dee. That's why I started my own religion.

I call it "The Womb".

My life has been better ever since.

Jamel
February 19 2004, 10:58PM

I agree with everyone on the separation of church and state. however, religious fanatics want to brainwash people with their rhetoric and they do a good job. I don't care about what the bible really says because, its nothing but another book to me. Some people call it "The Good Book," but in reality, it's one of the most opressive books I've ever read. I believe in God and I don't have to be an African American Christian.

Frank Eggers
February 20 2004, 2:11AM

Jesus did not see the Old Testament as infallable, nor do the various branches of the Anglican Communion.

In general, we Anglicans (Episcopalians, in the U.S.) believe that to establish doctrine, we must use scripture (the Bible), tradition, and REASON. Unfortunately, many churches do not believe in using reason, and that is what causes most of the problems.

The Old Testament does require that if a man's brother dies childless, he is supposed to impregnate his brother's widow (regardless of whether he himself is married) and raise the children in the name of his deceased brother. Obviously no modern Christian would accept that, or some of the other laws in the O.T. We Anglicans have no problem with that because we believe in using REASON! But members of other denominations cannot seem to explain why they do not follow that and are unable to state a consistent principal to determine what applies and what does not apply.

Note that when Jesus was asked which is the most important law, he answered by quoting the O.T. that it is to love God and to love your neighbor (broadly defined, of course). He went on to say, "On these 2 laws, hang all the law and the prophets." That is included in the communion liturgy for Anglican Churches and therefore all Anglicans should be aware of it. It is refered to as the Summary of the Law.

Using the Summary of the Law and REASON, it should not be difficult to defend same-sex marriage and same-sex relationships. To prove that they are improper, it would be necessary to prove that they violate the Summary of the Law as stated by Jesus himself. So far as I know, no one has even attempted to do that.

bmi
February 20 2004, 10:29AM

Beliefs dont change reality. As much as you try, the moral standard for marriage is a man and a woman. There isn't one CULTURE on the face of this planet that does not recoginize that standard as the only viable option for the perpetuation of the human race. Rail against it all you want and try to blame it on the Bible Keith Boykin, but in the end even you must admit that a man and a woman brought you into this world. A UNIQUE ability for a UNIQUE purpose. Your misplaced anger is because you know that this will never, ever be a possiblity with the person you "love". Every culture since the beginning of time has rejected this ludicrous assumption. Stop ignoring HISTORY and stop trying to create something that will never succeed.

Homosexuals have no clue about the standard of true monogamy or relationship. Homosexual marriage's only common denominator is sex. And that is out of control. Stop blaming the Bible for your failure.

Now lets talk CIVIL marriage. There is NO historiacal precendent anywhere which prooves that homosexual civil marriage has added anything good to the welfare of a nation. Excluding the recent social experiementation of some European countries, nothing supports the premise that civil marriages for homosexuals is a good thing. It is simply another "theory" in sexual evolution.

For those of you who use the tired, worn out completely false comparison of interracial marriages even the courts defined the parameter of marriage.

The Loving vs Virginia 1967 Supreme Court decision stated:

"Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942). See also Maynard v. Hill, 125 U.S. 190 (1888). To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."

The court made the undeniable point that marriage when it is practiced in its intended form (male-female)literally ensures the existence and survival of the human race. The court opines that this is a fundamental purpose of marriage. And for good reason. This is common sense logic. Homosexuals cannot in any possible way, compliment or enhance this powerful dynamic.

Troy
February 20 2004, 10:53AM

Christianity was invented by the same suits still holding rule over us right up until this very day. Organized religion almost always does nothing for no one, never will; not it's goal. Seek the higher power from within you and there you will truly find God or religion. God is Love. It is truly that basic and simplistic message. I don't need man's approval to live or love, and that much edited book called the bible, I got that too, in too many versions.

I am not an abomination. I am not a mistake. I am not a pervert. I am not a sick. My relationship with another man is not dysfunction.

We're here, we're queer get used to it; We're beautiful!

Yes there is Adam and Eve and Yes, there is Adam and Steve. God made Steve too and if Steve is Gay, I am here telling you that God doesn't make mistakes, through his knowledge, he merely makes us beautiful!

yen
February 20 2004, 11:43AM

BMI --

I think Keith and Laura said it best: >

I'm always fascinated by the rants of those who crown themselves the moral superior in arguments about the construction of relationships who like to pull out bits and pieces of boring old chestnuts of the "be fruitful and multiply" variety. Let's get back to basics -- if you like to think of yourself as educated (and I'm assuming you do, BMI, as you've chosen to jump to the Loving case, which you've referred to in not so eloquent terms), you also have to pull out my favorite bit: Come, let us REASON together. What distinguishes humans from other mammals is the ability to reason, to take information and process it in a particular manner so as to come to a conclusion.

I'm also fascinated by the lack of intelligence exhibited by the reductionist argument that the only thing lesbians and gays are interested in, or capable of is sex, which would make homosexuals and homosexuals only, equivalent to every other mammal. We're talking basics here. Is your argument then that homosexuals (using your language, not mine) are simply life forms that exist only to act on hormonal impulses and nothing else? I don't require a silly, pissed-off response from you based on any offense you may take, because I'm good and offended by you enough for the both of us.
The word marriage has changed in definition, according to culture. Many states recognize a relationship between a man and woman who have not entered into a legal contract called "marriage" as a common law marriage. Biology does not require a piece of paper for the act of procreation to take place; hell, it doesn't even require 2 people to be in the same room! And, since we're on the subject of tired chestnuts, take a minute to actually look at the laws around marriage defined in the Bible to see how silly they are; read some of the other prohibitions as well while you eat your cheesburger or shrimp parmigiana, as you wear your wool sweater and cotton jeans.

Right wing nutjobs conveniently draw a blank on this one true thing: you can't unlearn what you've already learned and you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't wish for the good old days of the woman staying at home raising your kids while trying to pay for a $50K per year college education for each of your kids. You can't ask the Federal government to mind its business and ask for an amendment of the Constitution. You can't hope for the golden post-World War II era and buy the latest iTunes for your iPod.

All organisms, from the one-celled to the billion-celled, must change or die. Change, already!

Ronald
February 20 2004, 12:26PM

Marriage is not a necessity for offspring. If marriage wouldn't excist, maybe less children would be born, maybe more. Who knows? Anyway: marriage is not a requirement for the survival of any race. The biggest threat for the existence and survival of the human race is the human race itself. (Isn't your president --who's trying to forbid gay marriage-- the same president who's refusing the sign the Kyoto Agreement, because he thinks the economy is more important that the environment?) Furthermore, a shortage of food and drink is expected by 2010 if world population keeps growing as it does these days. One could say it would be better for the existence and survival of the human race (as well as other races) if less (human) children were born.

Marriage and love are only connected to each other for about one hundred years now. During the centuries before, marriage was nothing more than an economic agreement. I have strong reason to believe that, when the bible was written, it wasn't love that made people marry each other (see the 800 bible references about marriage). When the bible was written more men than women died an unnatural death, for instance because of wars. At that time, the "marriage rules" refered to were a good assurance for enough offspring.

I live in a European country where marriage is open for same-sex couples. Nothing proves that this has added anything bad to the welfare of the nation. Or maybe the fact that the birth rate was a bit lower than the previous year can be seen as prove? Help! Our survival is in danger! *grin*

I don't think more people "turn" gay because marriage is open for same-sex couples. The ones who believe people can "turn gay" (and are not born gay) can continue their efforts to "heal", even if marriage is open for same-sex couples. Or are they afraid that their "healing" has less success when love between people of the same sex is legaly accepted?

Because isn't that was it's all about? The acceptance that love between people of the same sex can exist.

Monogamy has nothing to do being homo- or heterosexual. I know lots of heterosexuals who are NOT monogamous, and lots of homosexuals who are. (I'm one of them.)

I wonder why some people are so much against same-sex marriages. The only reason I can think of is because they're insecure about their own sexual identity. They're simply afraid.

From the Netherlands, I strongly hope that the battle for the legal acceptance of same-sex marriages in the USA will be won!!!

Jaymillionaire
February 20 2004, 3:24PM

The Bible has been used for centuries to control the minds of the masses by the use of fear (read Revelations). The cult-like behaivor of many Christian zealots has metamorphisized christianity into an absurdness which equates to believing in the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause.

Kev
February 20 2004, 5:14PM

Thank you BMI. Two problems that exist with people and the Bible (Christian and non-Christian) is 1. most don't read it, 2. those who read, interpret it from their own point of reference (called Eisgesis). The purpose of the whole Bible is to "instruct in righteousness". God gave these instructions regardless to the various versions and interpretations over the years. It is our responsibility to seek out and verify the truth. How many of you still believe the earth is flat? Or did someone do some investigation? That truth was refuted. The Bible is the same. It must be interpreted in its proper historical, geographical, theological contexts, depending on what area of scripture is being read. I am a proud African American Christian who desired to leave homosexuality before I met Jesus and found the way out through Jesus. No person or system is the reason why I left. God is the reason why? And I am not afraid to talk about scripture. Let's look at the "quote" from the beginning of this topic.
"If a man dies childless, his brother must marry the widow (Gen 38:6-10, Deut 25:5-10, Mark 12:19, Luke 20:28)." Upon first reading this, one would think "See the Bible said this 4 different times." WRONG! It says it once, gives an example in another place, and quotes the original statement twice. This "law" has its origin in the founding of a people. Since Adam and Eve were the first and only people in the beginning of time, of course their children married each other to produce humanity. God was building a family of people for Himself. Today there is no need for family members to intermarry. And it can be traced through scripture why this is the case and how the change occurred. What cannot be found in scripture is the purpose and validation for homosexual relationships and homosexual behaviors. It serves no purpose for why God created mankind. If people would approach the Bible for what it says vs. what it should or should not say to me, we would understand God better. We would understand that those of us who are or were same sex attracted, God receive such an awesome gift from God called Grace, to become someone we never imagined we could. The Bible is full of miracles. People being healed of diseases, raised from the dead, even Christ being raised from the dead. Wouldn't it be something if God could change someone sexual nature from homosexual to heterosexual because God wanted to. Guess what, He can and He does. It is a wonderful feeling to love a woman the way God wants me to, when I never thought it was possible. Believe it or not, I am a walking miracle! Hallelujah! And you can be too!

Jeram
February 20 2004, 7:58PM

Here you go again BMI. Here it is I thought you became somewhat "enlightened" from our last go round. I see that is not the case. To assume that all we homosexuals are doing this for is sex is stupid. What you then have to assume is that heterosexuals are doing it just for sex. And guess what BMI, alot of heterosexuals do it just for the sex so let's be very clear on that. This whole idea of sacred really starts to annoy me because you're in total denial that there are men and women are not having sex to have offspring. I know a few couples that don't want children. I know some who can't have children. If the purpose is to have children, why are heterosexuals who can't have them still having sex? Using interracial marriage to fight our case is no more or less tired than you coming here talking about procreation. You would think from the way BMI and all the rest act that everyone is going to turn gay and stop having children. I can assure that nothing is further from the truth. I'm tired of saying this but there are many people having children all the time. That isn't going to change.

Jeram
February 20 2004, 8:35PM

You know what Kev, I think it's wonderful that you have changed. You are a miracle. However, I do not think that everyone is going to have that testimony because what you've gone through doesn't apply to everyone. Maybe you were supposed to be heterosexual. I do not know your story. I know there are some men who were abused which still does not negate their sexual preference. Some people do get confused with their sexuality if they've been through a situation such as molestation. There are many, many, many black gay men and women who grew up in the church. There are many who are active in the church. Some of them sing, teach sunday school, and preach. They are deacons and ushers. Some of them are gospel recording artists. They are gay and will remain that way. This is not to say that they haven't tried. Some of them got married only to mess up the entire family unit. So there are stories on both sides of this Kevin. For every so-called victory story, there are many who have not had that experience. It doesn't mean they gave up on God coming through for them. Some have learned to love themselves just as they are. That's how God loves us. He does want to bring us higher but not the way you and BMI would have everyone here believe. It's so funny how you all can believe that everybody's supposed to be heterosexual when we have people who have other afflictions that we don't even think about and we wouldn't even think of asking them to change because that's how they were born. We don't say to people that everybody's supposed to have two legs, two arms, ten fingers, ten toes, two eyes, two ears, and a vagina or a penis. There are people who don't fall into these categories. There are people who are handicapped. There are people born retarded. Do we say to these people to just hold on and God will deliver you from your predicament. He's going to give you a leg. He's going to give you that missing ear. He's going to turn your genitalia into male or female. As wonderful as Benny Hinn is, I haven't seen him do those things and God strongly works through him. I say this because I know the mentality of most black christians that come out of the three most predominant denominations: Apostolic, Church Of God In Christ, and Baptist. These denominations seem to be the most repressed and the most vigilant on this issue. I think that you're right that we should seek the truth out for ourselves but if that is the case, why don't church people agree on the same issues? Granted, they all may agree on the homosexual issue but is it right? There are many things these and other denominations don't agree upon so who then should I listen too? I say all this to say that you don't know what God said to somebody else. You couldn't possibly know. People in the church always like to say what "God told them" concerning someone else's life. Let's be very clear that we don't have all the answers. I'll say that again. We do not have all the answers. God doesn't work through everybody the same way. That's why we have denominations. That's probably why the black churches is still not segregated for the most part. Everybody doesn't have the same idea of Christianity or religion.

Jeram
February 20 2004, 8:37PM

I meant to say that's probably why churches are still segregated for the most part even though we claim to love God and each other.

Laura
February 20 2004, 9:54PM

Kev Christian Hypocrite no. 4,144,144 said, "The Bible is full of miracles."

Kev, hasn't it occurred to you yet that not everybody believes the Bible?

Not everybody has to, and not everyone who does has to agree with your limited interpretation.

So you love a woman; big deal. Queer people have the capacity to love regardless of body parts, or gender. For most of us, it's the person. So congratulations.

Of course, difference is, nobody is requiring you Bible-quoting hypocrites to love same-sex. You Bible-quoting hypocrites, OTOH, require everyone else to believe your narrow-minded interpretation of "grace" and of course, "sin" and above all, "death", the favored obsession of the religiously insane the world over. This is why you liars and control freaks have no credibility.

"Since Adam and Eve were the first and only people in the beginning of time, of course their children married each other to produce humanity."

So the Bible indeed literally endorses incest. Don't you traditionalist/literalists have a problem with that? Why not?

Keep it up, Kev, although, you're not doing much to "win souls" in these parts.

PS - the word is "exegesis", not "eigesis". Perhaps you made a typo, but somehow, I doubt it.

Laura
February 20 2004, 9:59PM

Jeram said, "As wonderful as Benny Hinn is,"

ROTFL! Binny Hinn is wonderful?

With that hair?

As the Holiness people say, deliver me...

Jamel
February 20 2004, 10:02PM

We have a struggle to truly define and believe in ourselves in this oppressive society. God is the only one who will tell me what to do, so some of these "so called" religious people are "fakesters." One love to the real religious leaders who are not about greed and dishonesty. Once again, I only answer to God, so please don't judge me.

Laura
February 21 2004, 6:22AM

"Once again, I only answer to God, so please don't judge me."

Not sure if that was directed at me, but I'm not judging you, Jamel. I am however judging that nutball (http://www.geocities.com/Bob_Hunter/benny.html") Benny Hinn.

If I were him, I'd sue my hairstylist.

Jamel
February 21 2004, 10:10AM

Hi Laura! Don't worry, my comment was not directed at you. It was directed at people who likes to judge others. Those people know who they are.

Jeram
February 21 2004, 11:38AM

I believe that Benny is inspired by God and through God he's done wonderful things. His hair is altogether a different matter.

austin
February 21 2004, 9:30PM

i love being who i am. I am one of those who struggles with the fight. I love God, I love my partner, and I love going to church. It's tough, it's REAL tough. I mean, I hate being beat up on by the people I love being with to worship our God! It stinks! I have lived tooooooooooo many years worried about what's the opinion of the church, and the folks in it, when all of them have their boyfriends, and I can't! Whatever!

I am one of those men that realized maybe a little late in my life. I'm almost 40. I'm not wasting one more day with what the folks think or have to say.

I don't believe in reincarnation, so i've gotta make the best of this trip. It's the only one that i get!

bmi
February 23 2004, 7:13AM

@Kev,
Right ON! Your's is a voice of reason, truth and clarity. Please keep telling these people that they dont have to live this way if they dont want to. God is all about choice. You have the choice to sin (homosexuality) or you have the choice to repent and live according to God's standards. When its all said and done no one will be able to stand before him and have an excuse about their choice in life. Austin, I feel sorry for you making such a devastating decision this late in life. It reminds me of King Solomon, his later years were the worst of his life!

Jeram
February 23 2004, 11:16AM

Austin don't listen to those people. They don't know you or what you've been through. They are so certain that God wants you to be heterosexual. As I said earlier you wouldn't have these people tell you if you were born with both genitalia that you need to chose. If you were born with one ear, they would have the compassion for you but wouldn't say that you should have two ears. You were born that way. To all the naysayers that post here, all I have to say is you really need to check yourselves. Of all the condescending things to say, I have heard them all when you say to someone "You don't have to be that way" as if it's bad. Sounds like white people; the same ones who taught us that Bible and their interpretation of it. Don't let those people stop you from praising God. They think they know but really have no idea what God is going to say when that day comes. These same people say they preach love and yet we as a church still have segregation still going on. White people praise him in their surroundings and black people in theirs. Why is that? How am I going to let these same people tell me what God says when they still can't seem to get the basic principles together. The only suffering that most people go through is trying to change something that is the core of who they are BMI. This is no different than the color of my skin. Just because Kev agrees with you doesn't make it right for everybody else. I thought you had gained some knowlege from the last discussion on this site. I see that wasn't the case.

bmi
February 23 2004, 4:55PM

The knowledge I gained was that too many of you are suffering with revenge, guilt, shame, self delusion, anger, bitterness and hate. I hope that you can see yourself for what is really eating you from the inside.
Anyway,pipe down and let Austin speak for himself. I don't think he needs you to say what he wants to say. Give the man a CHOICE. Why can't he know about his CHOICES? I thought gay people would be happy about being pro-choice. But alas tis only another plank of hypocrisy running rampant in this camp.
There is no study, report, research or any such thing which provide clear evidence of anyone being born homosexual. If that were true, no wonder Jesus said YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

Laura
February 23 2004, 6:05PM

"I thought gay people would be happy about being pro-choice."...waah waah, they don't believe like me, so I'm going to tell them to go to hell...

Yes, we all make choices. For some of us the "choice" is whether to pursue our same-sex loves, or repress them, like some of these sanctimonious "ex-gays" have "chosen" to do.

As Jeram said, "Don't let those people stop you from praising God"

Well, they can't. They don't have that kind of power. That is why they are so angry.

Laura
February 23 2004, 6:10PM

"The knowledge I gained was that too many of you are suffering with revenge, guilt, shame, self delusion, anger, bitterness and hate. I hope that you can see yourself for what is really eating you from the inside."

LOL, that's some projection there, pal. And yet, we here are supposed to take the bigoted opinions of Christian Hypocrites as Ultimate Truth.

Give me a break.

Jeram
February 23 2004, 10:53PM

Hello BMI. I think Austin knows his choices. Are you that ignorant? He told you he goes to church every Sunday and he hears all the anti-gay rhetoric. Austin is not some kid. He's a grown man who knows full well the choices at hand. The only choice Austin and some of us have decided is not to let people like you tell us how we should live. That is God's job. Why do you insist on coming here anyway? I mean you rant about us being revengeful, hateful and a few other negative adjectives. I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes and see what I see. And for all that you say we are I'm sure belong to a church that is all black and yet you talk about love but I digress. You feel this way because you never had to deal with being gay BMI so you don't know squat about us. Everything you said is how we feel about you all. You come here judging like the rest of the Christians I know but I'm the one bitter. I mean if you really believe in God, why don't you let him do his work. Just like you said Austin doesn't need me speaking for him, why don't you all hush and let God deal with it. You and all the rest are like those kids who always telling on people; telling them what they should and should not do. Let God be the judge instead of you cause when you say "It's not me judging you, it's God", all I hear is your annoying voices, not God's.

Jeram
February 23 2004, 11:03PM

If I am angry BMI, it's because of people like you who continue to come here and talk like we've never gone to church, never read the word or weren't a part of it. It's like you're deaf. That same Bible enslaved African Americans, subjugated women, and now attacks gays. We're supposed to interpret in light of those facts. Everyone interprets the Bible. That includes Kev and yourself BMI but you all come here in denial about that. Or maybe it's just that it's okay for you and Kev to interpret it and not us. You want to talk about hiprocrisy? I'm ready when you are. Yes, I'm angry at your arrogance and your ignorance.

Jamel
February 23 2004, 11:41PM

My faith in God does not have anthing to do with what some human being has to say because, we have be destroying this world for thousands of years. There are people in this world who are confused and use God name to oppress others for their own cause. Lets not criticize and judge. Read the newspapers and watch the late night news.

People kill in the name of GOD;some people steal in the name of GOD. Blacks were descriminated against in the name of GOD. once again, let us all come together and seek the truth. it's not hard to find. We have to learn our history. please learn it.

Jamel
February 23 2004, 11:55PM

heterosexism causes a lot of us to hate ourselves. I realize that we only live once in this world and we have to enjoy ourselves. Sexuality is normal. only ignorant people won't understand, but anyone can become educated. We are judged by people in this world if we are homosexual or not. THe world is full of different people. Imagine if the world only had white, black, and tall people. God is love.

Jeram
February 24 2004, 11:56AM

I agree with what Jamal says. I believe that God is testing us once again to see if we can truly love each other. I keep using the fact that churches are still segregated for the most part. If we all believe in the same God as Christians (I'm talking about them for now), why aren't we rejoicing together? A large part of it has to do with the history of our people and white people. It's funny how we talk about love and forgiveness but still don't worship together regularly. I realize that there are churches that do have a wide ethnic range of people together but I believe the number is small. I believe gay is just another test for people to learn again to love one another and stop judging.

Regan DuCasse
February 24 2004, 12:57PM

I had the pleasure of attending the monthly Marriage Equality meeting last night, and sat with Sylvia Rue, a board member of the National Black Justice Coalition. My best friend Mikey and partner in activism accompanied me. I'd met Sylvia before at a theater workshop for activist playwrites.
I handed over the information I had for the law firm suing the state of CA over the unConstitutionality of Prop 22 and also a letter I wrote to be sent out to elected officials regarding segregtionist laws and values.
I would never profess to understand what it's like to be gay. I do know what bigotry is like-I do know that it's a serious disease that's eating away at the very Constitution and I can't be having it.
I'm loading up my guns ready to fire them at the hypocrisy and contradictions abounding in the issue of gay marriage.
I can't understand how so many people really think they are immune to having gay family and letting the laws keep their loved ones forever in isolation and under threat.
They would let the government influenced by religious tyranny decide for them how their gay child is supposed to be treated.
Anyway, this hetero woman ain't gonna let em get away with it.
Peace.

Leonardo da Vinci E
February 24 2004, 3:26PM

Which do you wish to rule over your country?

Ethics:The use of human reasoning to forward fairness,equality,and justice.

OR

Morality:The use of unproven religious assertions to regulate what should be a "free" society?

bmi
February 24 2004, 4:03PM

http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/racism-gay-lesbian/1-white-racism-america.htm#african-american

Since you guys brought up the issue of black and white CHURCHES being separated, I am curious as to your comments about white gays and black gays and the racism going on in YOUR community. I found this little article about white gay racism very interesting. Since Keith Boycott likes to moan and groan so much about Republicans being white, rich and priveleged, I wonder if he was just as adamant about the "sexual classism" among gays.

Oh, and you dont have to quote or mention the Bible since there seems to be a consensus on this board that it isn't relevant.

Secondly, what are YOU doing about it?

From your friendly-once-in-a-while-dissenter,
bmi

Laura
February 24 2004, 5:32PM

I believe Keith speaks up about that as well, so don't try to frame him or the rest of us as some kind of hypocrites.

Most whites are racist - so yeah, racism among white gays, do you really think that is something we didn't know, or depend on you to tell us about? We deal with racism from whites and homophobia from our own - what are you doing to change that, besides sitting at your computer, grinding some random axe about gays?

Personally, I don't really care to hear a laundry of all your anti-racist accomplishments, assuming you have one. Just something for you to consider, before you go trying to dig up some dirt on gays we've been talking about for years.

Larry
February 24 2004, 7:30PM

FYI BMI.......my partner and I dated for 9 months without sex.

Not to mention the fact that the most loving, committed, devoted, faithful, and lasting relationships that I have EVER seen are lesbians......homosexuals.

A propensity towards more sex than is need has more to do with being a man than being gay. If this were not the case, more men would be getting raped by women.

To be thought of as a fool is one thing.....but to open your mouth in utter ignorance erases all doubt.

Jeram
February 24 2004, 8:06PM

I believe the comments from BMI were aimed at me so I'll respond. As Laura already said, you're not telling us anything we don't already know. I mentioned the racism that permeates even in the holiest of churches because these are still problems that noone in the church truly talks about. They talk about loving thy neighbor but yet they want to turn around and condemn us? I don't think so. I just want the black church to be real and stop living in denial about so many things namely racism, sexism and homophobia.

Leonardo da Vinci E.
February 26 2004, 3:31PM

On the subject of racism:What is wrong with admitting that we all have a need to be drawn to that grouping of people we get the most comfort from while interacting...Why not admitt to ourselves that this will continue and that it is not particuliarly WRONG unless we develope an inability to let others pass in polite peace while we enjoy the relationships which are exclusive and the center of our joy...while acknowledging that any one of us has the right to travel outside our little groups whenever we please should for some reason we find something worthwhile and enjoyable.The individuals right to execute his freedom being the priority.

Leonardo da vinci E.
February 26 2004, 3:49PM

On the subject of racism:We may have different motivations for creating the effect which looks as if its racism.For example,someone may be angry at you because of the cultural attitudes and modes of behaviors passed from one to another which seem to have high rates of violating the human rights of others..they are angry at your culture and it looks as if they are angry at your race (which is not entirely true);To some extent we all participate,and some may use anger towards you as a continuous request to get the cultural violence, abuse , and Hatemaking under control(In gay terms think about the recent stradegy of heterosexual blacks to jerk their heads away from known gays as they pass them on the streets.They are creating culture and eventually others (whites?) may respond in kind, but is it really racism?Not one of us is immune ...we human beings are not perfect in the sense of an exactitude,we merely achieve a certain range of consistency and that is as perfect as human beings can be.

Larry
February 26 2004, 6:03PM

"Since you guys brought up the issue of black and white CHURCHES being separated, I am curious as to your comments about white gays and black gays and the racism going on in YOUR community"

.....its simple bmi,

Just because someone is gay does not mean that they can't be racist. Very much in the same way that many KKK members are poor white trash on welfare who vote republican.

so your point is?

Bill
March 6 2004, 7:24PM

In this new age it seems anything is acceptable as long as we can get enough votes. God's will is perfect and so was the devine inspiration given to the prophets by Jesus. Whatever God the Father and the Son of God forbid, it is forbidden forever. Whatever they blessed, it is blessed forever. We as sinful humans will always seek after a sign to justify our immorality. For thoes of you who think judges and politicians can write away one sentence of God's law, your wait will be long and uncertain. I believe it said Heaven and Earth will pass away first!

Sorry, sort of makes gay marriages, homosexual behavior, and any heterosexual sex outside of marriage a sin dosen't it. God didn't discriminate, His union of man and woman was perfect. Anything other than that is from SIN...........Until someone finally find a passage in the Bible that supports homosexual behavior in the eyes of God, except it as it is. Christians, stay on your journey with God and embrace Christ our Savior. Move on and let the dead bury their dead....

DiatonicForm
March 10 2004, 3:10PM

So Bill, why then is rape illegal? Why doesn't the rapist have to mary his victim (unless she is engaged in which case they are both stoned)? That's in the bible.

Why is marriage only between one man and one woman? In the bible, men were allowed to have as many wives as they wanted and women were considered property, no more.

In biblical times a woman had to stay in bed while on her period, and she could have no contact with other people. She was considered unclean. Why isn't that still practiced?

The Bible, while inspired by God, was written by man, plain and simple. A lot of things in the bible just don't apply to today's way of doing things. Aside from that, I have yet to find anything in the Bible that specifically says, "if you fall in love with a person of the same sex and want to spend the rest of your life with him/her; even if you love Me and confess me as your Saviour, you will go to hell." It just doesn't work that way. I know Jesus loves me, and I'm sure I'll see you in heaven (that is if you still want to be there with all the queers...)

Laura
March 10 2004, 10:21PM

"I know Jesus loves me, and I'm sure I'll see you in heaven (that is if you still want to be there with all the queers...)"

LOL - where would the Heavenly Chorus be without choir queens, after all.

Laura
March 10 2004, 10:26PM

"For thoes of you who think judges and politicians can write away one sentence of God's law, your wait will be long and uncertain. I believe it said Heaven and Earth will pass away first!"

Er, sorry, but the US is not made up of straight fundamentalist Christians.

I know you Fundocrats and Bible-quoters don't like it, but unless you secede and found your own country, you're stuck with it. And us. Get over it.

Better yet, learn to love it.

Leonardo davinci E
March 11 2004, 6:55PM

We must learn a new distinction:Learn to say I tolerate your religious views politely..butwe must cease using the words "respect them"

The PROOF that life developed through evolution is already available by a study of the genetic sciences.

I predict that one day we will have irrefutable evidence that life (lively matter)is caused by an exiotic phenomenon when whole sections of galaxies reach a critical point and explode releasing unusual energies and their special effects upon matter at a molecular level(lively matter)...a temporary condition of life appears and continues to live as long as conditions are remain right and this new life-form can siphon off energy...and eventually nutrients as it evolves into what we are today.Today most societies have as their philosophy the BIG LIE.

satans1angel899
March 14 2004, 3:39PM

Yeah...let's just agree on one thing,
God made Adam and Eve
NOT Adam and Steve!
sooooo, therefor God and the Bible say being Gay is WRONG! yeah, face it, you people have a pervison of the mind! God gave us the commandment TO BE FRUITFUL AND REPRODUCE can Gays or Lesbians do that? NO! ok that's all I have to say about that. Oh yeah and the fact that YOU ARE NOT BORN GAY! if you are then my friends dad was born and abuser, and my brothers friends mum was born the a prositute, right?

Laura
March 15 2004, 4:31PM

Satan, you're an idiot.

"God made Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve!"

Mmm, clever rhyme. And original. Got any more worn out cliches to throw around?

"God gave us the commandment TO BE FRUITFUL AND REPRODUCE can Gays or Lesbians do that? NO! "

Yes, numbskull, we can. I'm female. I can make babies anytime I choose. Oh yes, and TYPING IN ALL CAPS MAY MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE YOUR POINTS POWERFUL, so stop your hollering. You're not saying anything new.

You're stuck with queers. We're not going anywhere.

Learn to love it, or spend your life miserable. Choice is yours.

Leonardo da vinci E.
March 15 2004, 5:31PM

....And it may take thousands of years for mother nature to cause life forms to evolve in any special direction...but what would her handiwork look like if you took a glance at it before she had finished her new artwork? I'd bet you would see a phonomenon which you imagine is strange (like being gay)since the limitation of you own envisionment could not see the end goal of why the phenomenon came into "being."

Leonardo da vinci E.
March 17 2004, 5:36PM

...FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING I WILL TURN YOU INTO A GAY PERSON FOR JUST ONE MOMENT:READ ON.

Let me take you back to your first crush!

Remember the queasy butterfly feelings in your emotions? The tingling in your nerves? The strong excited attraction and longing?

Not every person who walked pass could do that to you-only a few!

It was not entirely under your control either!

Your genetic make-up is sort of programed by birth th have an attraction for only certain genetic characteristics and not everyone who walks pass can cause the reaction to go off with such a strong tingling (longing) reaction.
--------------------------------------------------Imagine a gay man when a beautiful woman walks pass----------------------------------------------

Nothing happens!No tingling,no attraction,no longing.The genetic reaction did not, would not activate!

Suddenly, a guy walks by and the gay man is surprised to find his nerves began to tingle and an excited attraction overwhelms his emotions!

But...not all men can cause him to reacte only the few that his genetic make-up shows sensitivity towards,however,for all people,that tingle (that crush) is the sole sensation we equate wih true love.

UNDERSTAND THESE SUBTLE
DIFFERENCES IN HUMAN
NATURE NOW?
I assure you there are other variations as well!

..So how can we work together to develope the new customs we need so gays can learn to show the proper regard for those who are not gay,and so people who are not gay can relax and just politely say to any (gay) person who might be accidentally interested in them:"Sorry,you guessed wrong-I'm not a member of the gay community so you can't date me!But I really do wish you luck in your search for a soulmate!

Leonardo da vinci E.
April 7 2004, 2:40PM

...So where did the universe come from?
No.That is not the correct question.
The correct question is why you the human have invented the need for a beginning for what is a primary state,when you have observed that 0+0=0
and 0+1=1....nothing can be gotten when there is nothing at all....something can be gotten out of something:since it is the primary substance of what "reality" itself is made...would have no beginning...and the proof that it has "always" been is the simple fact that we exist,since existence cannot come out of "nothing at all"..you know a primary state must have "always" been present,and that is the nature of things...which are not past finding out.

Leonardo da vinci E.
April 12 2004, 2:21PM

Life beyond death is

ashley
June 3 2004, 8:27PM

It hurts me to my heart when I come across a person who is as lost as you all are. First of all, lets get this straight. HOMOPHOBIA IS A MAN-MADE FEAR OF GAY PEOPLE. THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY SAYS NOT TO FEAR ANY HUMAN BEINGS BUT FEAR THE ONE WHO CAN CAST YOUR SOUL INTO HELL (LUKE 12:4-5). SO STOP MISINTERPRETING AND MAKING FOOLS OF YOURSELVES. AND TO THE MORON WHO SAID THAT GAY MARRAIGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLE, LETS REMIND OURSELVES THAT MARRAIGE IS A UNION OF A MAN AND A WOMAN UNDER GOD...WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE ARE MARRIED BY A MINISTER....NOT JOE SCHMO DOWN THE STREET. i just wish we'd all stop being ignorant...and i can tell that none of you have even ever read the bible. so why dont you PICK UP THE BOOK AND READ IT BEFORE U START TELLING REAL CHRISTIANS LIKE MYSELF WHAT IT SAYS. God Bless....and best believe I will be praying for you all tonight!!! feel free to comment back to me because im not afraid to fight for my faith.

miguel
June 8 2004, 2:10PM

I read the whole chain of emails and all I can do is laugh. All this talk about who is really Christian and what is right and wrong is hilarious. The Bible was written by man. Therefore, your interpreting the interpretation of men.

If you live by what the Bible says and not what's in your heart, you're lost. The Bible should be used as a tool to understand the Chritian faith as it was at that time. The Church should be used as a place to share your faith. Neither can control your faith in Christ.

If you don't agree with the Bible, guess what? You don't have to and you can still be a child of God. If your gay, you're still a child of God, but expect to be persecuted in Church. Live in reality people! You attend Church with free-willed, judgemental humans, stop with the crying and whining and deal with it. If you're going to follow your faith and take your partner to Church, then do it. If you can't handle the looks and stares, stay home.

...and for ASHLEY, homophobia is a man-made fear and the bible is a man-made book. One reason both were created was to produce fear. People get married NOT under God all over the world. My point, anything created by man should be questioned and debated. REAL CHRISTIANS understand that the Bible is incomplete from it's original content and has been mis-interpreted through multiple translations.

Laura
June 23 2004, 7:28AM

Ashley, you may consider yourself a "real Christian", but you don't know what the hell you're talking about and are the ignorant one around here. You're not the only one around here who has read the Bible, so cut the holier-than-thou act, already.

People -- in case you didn't know or forgot -- are married by ministers, Brahmin priests, imams, rabbis, justices of the peace and other religious practitioners. Some Christian churches do marry gay people - you don't have to attend them yourself, and are perfectly free to condemn them, but that does not make them wrong.

The Bible doesn't have the monopoly on controlling human behavior. Neither do Christian homophobes.

There are other people in the world besides Christians whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

JOsh
July 30 2004, 5:21PM

Many have disavowed young men and women for the right to make the choices of thier own lives based upon the society which they have grown into. Believe me, there is no greater need that a person has than to love the person of thier dreams. Dreams come form inside you, and you should never feel off-ceneter fro having them. Perhaps not every gay relationship ends in the same type of marriage that The Bible speaks of, but closely endeared friends that portary close physiacl attachment. I may never be "married" but I desreve love too. I have considered sending myself to hell (thorugh suicide) because I thought I have no hope of Gods love or repentance. My feelings in themselves are not a sin. How I go about using them may be if I choice to live a life that is primiscuous (replacing love for lust), but if there is a true conncetion between two people and they care about one another and not just for the physical attraction of thier body, than such love can be fufilling and promising. WE NEED LOVE TOO. THE LOVE OF A PERSON.

Kim Lefebvre
August 15 2004, 11:01PM

There seems to be many misinformed people here. Whether you accept it or not, God is real. He did give us His living Word. It's their as a way to get to know Him better. Coming up against it and having your own thoughts and ideas doesn't make God any less real. Yes, He does give guidelines for our life and yes, it is for our own good. Again, not accepting God doesn't make Him any less real. God's law is far more important than man's law. Contrary to Keith Boykin's beliefs of the Bible, the Bible never promotes or encourages homophobia. I guess you we need to be an educated person to speak on that issue though. Perhaps, Mr. Boykin may consider reading the Bible in it's entirety and come back and give is a real topic to discuss instead of some unrealistic thoughts he has running through his mind. Nobody is forcing anybody to believe in God. In fact, I can speak until my face turns blue about God and I'm sure it won't make a difference. Why you ask? Because you all seem to have life figured out and that my friends is an unworkable heart. The bottom line is, the more you deny Christ and His word, the more you'll deny yourselves happiness and freedom. But hey, it's your choice....right?

Saadaya
August 30 2004, 4:05PM

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that marriage must be between man and woman. David and Jonathan had a covenant WITH GOD, it's in the book of Samuel. The early orthodox Christian church also performed numerous marriages, which are all documented, and there are tombs with gay and lesbians couples in early Christianity, as well as Sergius and Bacchus. If anything, we may say that the bible contradicts itself when it comes to gays. The rape that almost took place in Sodom and Gommorra is also often used to attack gays, which is a huge insult and confuses gayness with rape!!!

Jesus spoke of the 'eunuchs who were born eunuchs', Isaiah makes promises to eunuchs who are faithful, and Paul, who was homophobic, misogynistic, and believed in slavery, said many things which ran contrary to the values of the historical Jesus. For the sake of one example, he did not want Mary Magdalene to preach because she was a woman (and women weren't supposed to talk in the temple, and had to remain veiled) - in spite of the fact that JESUS RESURRECTED HIMSELF came to her, a WOMAN, and ordered Mary to go out and spread the message. Without Mary no one would believe in Jesus' resurrection. Is Paul greater than Jesus? Should we, then, call ourselves Paulites instead of Christians?

Some food for thought.

Mark
October 21 2004, 11:36AM

Weak-minded people. Although the Bible is a joke, I am thankful it was made up. It keeps the nut balls somewhat in check. Without its guidelines to decency, I doubt most of the Christians writing in here would be able to control themselves. It's amusing to me that because people couldn't figure out how the universe worked they sat down and decided to make it up in a book they called the bible. It's ironic, the bible was written, and religion was developed in general, to quell the fear of the unknown. Now all it does is cause fear! Lemmings! Oh, by the way, have any of the Christians had sex with their sisters lately. I figured it would be ok since Adam and Eve’s kids must have done it! Otherwise, where did we all come from. Maybe we should just stick with the evolution theory – something with tangible evidence that is!!! I’m not Gay but power to ya!