Did You Hear The One About
By Keith Boykin, in sports
Thursday, January 8 2004, 12:00PM
This week, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton apologized for what she called "a lame attempt at humor" after joking that former Indian leader Mahatma Gandhi used to run a gas station in St. Louis. I don't know what she was thinking, but if there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that stereotypes and jokes aren't all black and white. In fact, did you hear the one about the Indian sales clerk and the two black athletes?
I have dozens of crazy stories to share from my trip to the Caribbean last month, but one of the craziest took place at a souvenir shop in downtown Charlotte Amalie, St. Thomas.
While Nathan and I were looking for a magnet to take back home, we overhead an older white customer in a very loud and long conversation with an Indian store employee. I thought to myself, that poor sales clerk probably wants to do his job but the old guy won't stop talking. Boy, was I wrong.
When we finally picked out our magnets, we took them to the counter to purchase, and the old guy finally stopped talking and walked away. Then the sales clerk asked us if we were basketball players. No, we told him. "Well you look like ball players," he said. But we're not, we said again.
We got the basketball player look a few times on the trip. We were two black guys traveling together in the Caribbean, so we had to be basketball players or brothers. Never mind the fact that we don't look alike and we're not tall enough to play pro ball. In the eyes of many, we were athletes.
"Why is it that black American men are so athletic?" he asked.
I guess he thought he was praising our race, but I had my doubts. I know the secret code that black men are not supposed to challenge the racial stereotypes that confirm our physical superiority and sexual prowess, but I don't see how that code helps us here.
"All black men are not athletic," we corrected him, thinking that would do the trick. Again we were wrong.
"Did you see the man who just left?" We nodded. "He used to play basketball with Oscar Robertson, and he said that black men have something in their legs that makes them stronger, faster and jump higher."
"That's not true," we said.
"But he said it is. He said he's played with several blacks, and that's why you're such good athletes."
"But I'm telling you it's not true," I told him.
"Why would he say that if it's not true? He seems to know what he's talking about."
"But he's wrong," we said. "Are you going to believe him or us? We're black. We know. Jimmy the Greek said the same thing a few years ago and got in trouble for making that remark."
"Then why are so many black athletes dominating sports? Whites can't compete. Indians can't compete. You guys are built differently."
"No, we're not built any differently," I said. "I've studied the issue of race for years, and most scientific evidence shows there are more differences within a race than between the races."
"But he..."
"He doesn't know what he's talking about."
"Then why are there so many black kids who go into sports?"
"Many of these kids come from backgrounds where sports are seen as the only way out of the community," Nathan said.
"It's a stereotype," I added. "It's just like the stereotypes about Indians, whatever that is."
"That we're all computer programmers," he said."
"Right, and you're not a computer programmer are you?"
"I am," he said.
I guess you don't have to be a logical thinker to program a computer, I thought to myself. He seemed incapable or unwilling to hear what we were saying.
"We all own businesses," he said. "In fact, most of the businesses on this strip are owned by Indians."
"And that's partly because of economic opportunity," I said. "Many African Americans don't necessarily have the same access to resources that people in your community may have."
"Sports is really a way out for many of the kids in the community," we said. "That's why they excel at it, because they're driven."
"It's very interesting," he said. "I hadn't thought about that before. Now I have something to think about. Enjoy St. Thomas."
We left the store, but we knew the dialogue was not completed. My guess is that the store clerk was not likely to believe us until our words were confirmed by an "objective" white source. What did we know? We were just a couple of black athletes.
Comments conceal
Bernie
January 8 2004, 12:42PM
You simply should have told him you were two Black gay men. Everyone knows there are no gay athletes! LOL.
Roger Pollard
January 8 2004, 1:44PM
Did you ever actually buy the magnets?
D
January 8 2004, 2:04PM
It really does amaze me that some stereotypes are maintained in face of any/all evidence. We insist on creating pigeonholes and maintaining same despite all efforts to the contrary. Of course it just takes one example out of millions of non-examples, if that makes sense, to convince the already-assured.
mr
January 8 2004, 2:20PM
I went to a party in New Orleans thrown by the "international STudents Association" of all people. From this diverse group my frined and I got more stereotypes than you could imagine. We started throwing it back at the people making the comments. First because we were both Blacka Japanese peroan assumed we had to be athletes so we lied and said I was a "computer person" and my friend was a photographer.
Then another Japanese girl started ragging on NY and how she could never go here because she would be raped. I person just released from jail after spend ing 10 years wouldn't rape her much less even ask for her phone number. I've seen pencils with more curves. My friend and I started talking about how we couldn't go to Japan because of all the suicides. It was fun watching people's reactions when presented with stereotypes about their own cultures and race. Not the most mature thing but it made the party tolerable. I am surprised after you pointed out you weren't athletes he didn't say "Sorry, your rap artists,I didn't see your bling bling!"
RA
January 8 2004, 2:30PM
Keith, I must say, your patience and politeness are to be commended. It just shows how much class you have. I could not have been as charitable. I would have unleashed so much vituperation on that Indian that I would probably have been expelled from the island. LOL!
Kola Boof
January 8 2004, 3:06PM
One thing that has always annoyed me...is that because I'm such a tall woman, WHITE people assume that I'm a basketball player. ALWAYS.
I used to be a model, but only BLACK people would ask me on the street, "Boy you're tall...are you a model?"
(*Gay men would ask--"Are you live or Memorex, girl?") LOL
When I was in North Africa, because I was BLACK and traveling alone without my head covered...it was instantly assumed that I was a prostitute no matter where I went. A white woman, however, traveling alone in a Muslim country with her hair uncovered is a "tourist".
Even as I spent big money and skipped along like Mary Tyler Moore...the vendors, the citizens...EVERYONE treated me like my money had come from prostitution.
Kola
Troy
January 8 2004, 3:31PM
I love this website and Kola always always intrigues me. There's more to all this than meets the eye and one day some day somebody will write about all this. Loving the improvements but did it really ever have to happen at all? Keith just like his site is pure Tiffany silver, I stay that eternal fan. Thanks for this. Keep keeping on -Remember there is a brighter day.
Kola Boof
January 8 2004, 4:40PM
LOL at Troy. Hi love.
I found one of my old modeling pictures online.
I'm posting the link to it.
I don't think I look like a basketball player!
http://authors.aalbc.com/kola_boof.htm
darnell
January 8 2004, 6:06PM
Why do we even try to explain to people that we are not what the stereotypes say we are? I ask myself this question every time I'm in the middle of a discussion like you were having, Keith. And I find myself defending our race and our sexuality a lot. As i'm sure all of us have. Ad nauseum.
I propose this: Embrace our stereotype. After all, there's sometimes a bit of truth in lies. So we're good at sports, let's admit it. There's a reason why the term "educated Black person" is the exception and not the rule. We don't like to hear it, but it's the state of the world.
I think we get so angry and offended because our stereotype isn't "good." I would love to have the stereotype "computer programmer" or "always winning Pullitzers" applied to Blacks, but that simply ain't what's up.
Stereotyping takes away our individuality. And we all want to think that we're special and unique. But denying the truth in our stereotype borders on elitism. We deny it because we think, personally, we are better than the masses, and you want that person you're enlightening to know that.
So when someone stereotypes us, we hear someone trying to put us down. But maybe, by embracing the truth in the stereotype, we might be a little more better off.
I don't know, is that a weird idea?
Oh and by the by, I love this website and I'm always intrigued by what Kola has to say, too!
darnell
January 8 2004, 6:13PM
Also, Kola, I went to your web address - intelligent AND beautiful? I didn't know it! And so high profile. You go girl!
But I should've known Keith would keep such likely company.
Kola Boof
January 8 2004, 6:30PM
Darnell, I agree with what you say.
There is no way to define me (Kola) as a person, and in America...this has created a rage in me that is hard to live with.
I am angry in this country--ALWAYS.
I turn on t.v. But whenever they show a t.v. commercial with a black mother who is dark brown or darker...she's FAT (or box shaped and plain)..or BEYOND childbearing age. Only the yellow skinned black mother can be slim, trim and attractive.
It's almost as though this is a RULE. A way to discredit all black people by saying..."LOOK...their mother is fat and unattractive, but isn't she jolly and sweet?"
I know MANY chocolate mothers..and we're all pretty women with killer shapes and big smiles doting on our kids. But on t.v. it's not allowed.
What used to really burn me up...as a teen...was chatting on the phone with Black American boys (Remember 3 way calls?). Well...I would always be put on the phone with some boy and he will ALWAYS ask, "Are you lightskinned? What shade are you?"
It was so crushing for a person not from this culture. Absolutely mindboggling each and every time. SO I always said in my accent, "I'm black as burnt toast. My hair has shit dried in it."
I am topless on the back of my books...to show respect for GOD and to honor my birth mother's Gisi-Waaq culture. A close Black American friend referred to my photos as "primitative". He didn't see the insult.
I could take him to the Nile River today...he will see beautiful Topless black women doing laundry or bathing their kids in the river. However,
A topless white woman on a French beach is "sexy" to him...but a topless African woman is "primative".
Of course these things matter. Keith is right to be offended. But also...Darnell...I have learned to accept the stereotypes that people have of naked African women. I have learned to USE THE mysticism of my people to my advantage. You are right, too...it's good strategy...and We have nothing to be ashamed of.
truth
January 8 2004, 8:04PM
I dig what was said about being outraged by stereotypes unless they are in our favor. But aren't most stereotypes somewhat based on truth. Think about it....
Mexican people Do eat beans and tortillas.
Indian people Do own most of the 7-elevens and Subways.
Asians DO excel in mathematics.
The French and Jamacians DON'T use deodorant.
Europeans do have brown, decaying teeth.
White people Do smell like dogs when ther hair gets wet.
And---my personal favorite, Black men DO have bigger dicks.
Kola Boof
January 8 2004, 8:16PM
Yes...I can tell you from Africa...Black men DO have bigger dicks!
That's why I'm not a lesbian. Never can quite recover long enough (LOL).
Kola
Kola Boof
January 8 2004, 8:18PM
IMPORTANT NOTE:
In the United Kingdom...it's the West African college students who excel in math, science and psychology...the way the ASIANS do in the U.S.
Not sure why, but the highest scoring grades in UK academia "group-wise" are always by West African students.
Kola Boof
January 8 2004, 8:21PM
Africans don't generally use deodorant either.
We're funky. I admitt it. But when you grow up in that atmosphere funky...you have NO IDEA that you're funky, because it's a cultural odor.
In America, I got perfumed.
Kola
cmoney
January 8 2004, 10:16PM
I don't know about you, but I hold onto my wallet real tight everytime a white woman walks by :-)
Stereotypes are stupid and are a substitute for reason and logical thought. Despite all of that I still mutter "racist bitch" to every 10th white woman who grabs her purse when she sees me approaching. It doesn't matter that I am an attorney, could be dressed in suit that costs more than her rent, have a brief case in one hand and an umbrella in the other. To her, I am still a black male, therefore, dangerous and poor and would drop everything I have to grab $5.00 out of her cheap ass fake Gucci purse. Racist Bitch!
Nuit-Noire
January 9 2004, 3:39AM
As an African (Living in Toronto,Canada) I also get all kind of reactions everytime I
>tell people where I'm from..
>
>Some people ask me if I speak African ( LOL..I always want to ask them if they speak European, Asian, or maybe American!?)
>
>People ask me if we live in solid houses(Unfortunately not everyone does,
>but the majority of people you meet outside of Africa does.)
>
>Some people ask me if we see lions on a daily basis (I've never seen one in my
>whole african life!)
>
>Some people get excited when I tell them I'm from Africa and want to relate
>to it (nothing wrong with it!). One day, this white guy told me " Oh, My dad went to Thailand and told
>me that elephants, bla bla bla!".Now what does Thailand has to do with Africa?.Just hilarious!!
>
>I don't even bother tell people what country I'm from (Burundi)because I always get " WHAT?BURGUNDY?"
> >
>When I visited Paris in 2002, my french friends were almost surprised that
>I'm mostly into Black guys as if Black + Black doesn't add up!!!This is crazy (I think Keith had a similar experience in Europe!)..
This is just a few reactions I get from people..It's just interesting how
>people refuse to get to know you as an individual and just want to play their little National Geographic movie with you as their main actor!! ..But I think it's their problem, their ignorance
>
>Kola, I visited your site and I think you are a stunningly beautiful, strong
>woman...you remind me of my Tutsi sisters!!
grimes
January 9 2004, 10:39PM
People are too damn serious. So Hilary made a joke. You keep making them Hil...I got your back...but do you have mine?
grimes
January 9 2004, 10:50PM
Kola Boof. Man, I love that name. If I ever have a kid I'll call him Boof Boof.
grimes
January 9 2004, 10:51PM
Jesus, cmoney you are all over the place.
cmoney
January 10 2004, 12:06AM
I know, grimes, I have nothing better to do. Back to Hillary Clinton. As much as I like Hillary Clinton as a potential future president, I bet she would grab her purse too if she saw me walking down the street in her direction. And that's with a secret service escort!! Stereotypes and old prejudices are hard to break, even fro those who may mean well.
jazzi
January 10 2004, 11:31PM
Darnell, I agree & diagree with you. I do feel that African Americans should take responsibility for who they are, where they are,& what they have. It sure would be nice for someone to say of us "Damn, they're dominating the medical & technical field. Just look at'em. Such brainiacs!". I do accept that we have fallen behind in these areas but I will never "embrace" the stereotype that we're intellectually inferior or just plain stupid! I think a lot of us aren't motivated or disciplined enough to go after those things. We are capable but a lot of us just don't apply ourselves to the right things.We know how to rap, dress, & "trick" out a ride but when it come to things of an academic nature, a lot of us could care less. Thats our fault. Again, I know we can do it but we're not. One thing I've noticed is that we don't encourage the youth in those areas like other groups do. How many times have I heard "Child, I can't wait till you get of working age so you can help buy some groceries & help pay these bills!" Never was I encouraged to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist, etc. I wasn't encouraged to go to college. Not reaching for excuses but its true. So i think we need to reverse the pattern & hold out to our youth the possibility of more than the Post Office, UPS, housekeeping, mailroom, shipping & receiving, rappers, & the like. Second, I will never "embrace" stereotypes because you can't say anything negative about African Americans that can't be said about any other ethic group. Ok, so there are a lot of Indian computer programmers & business owners. I think they, & other ethnic groups, have a different attitude concerning education & work & sucess. Maybe if a lot of us got on the ball & handled ours & stopped trying to be cute & cool, perhaps we too could have more surgeons, programmers, analyst, & so forth. I, like you Darnell, feel that we need to face some hard truths about ourselves. In facing them, I believe we can change for the better & grow.
David
January 14 2004, 12:57AM
Hey Kola,
I went to your website and I am impressed with the work you do.
I'll just like to say a few things.
1) Educated Africans do use deodorants! My mum bought me my first deodorant before I became a teenager and would send me out of her room if I forgot to use it.
2)I am West African and most of my high school classmates are scattered across the globe attending college. Yeah, most of us are academic whizzes but I am not sure if that's a racial thing or if it's just because we attended a ultra-selective international school. West Africans do well in the US too. All of us ( i.e. those in my circle of friends) have near-perfect GPAs.
3)You're fabulously beautiful!
4)I am surprised at how gay-friendly you are. The only other African woman that I have met who is also gay-friendly is my Dartmouth-hippie girlfriend, but she still has some reservations.
You go girl!
Shannon
January 17 2004, 10:49AM
I worked at a Christian camp in Missouri this past summer, and I was one of the only black employees there, even though the camp is for inner-city youth. One white girl told me that she would be no good running after "black kids, cause they're so fast." Another white girl asked why "black people are always the loudest people wherever she goes."
I was a bit shocked. I know people still think stupid things like this, but these two girls let it come out of their mouths! Disgusting!
Justin
June 25 2004, 3:02PM
i think stereotyping is made out to be bigger then it actually is.... yes there are differences from one race to another, people need to learn to accept that doesn't mean anyone is better... and people cry like they are the only victim i know many people from every race who has been the victim of stereotyping hell i would be amazed if there was a person who hasn't been affected by it yes i am a white male and i was over at my friends house and saw this conversation..... your not the only ones who are the victims of stereotypes hell just by saying u are the victim of a stereotype from a collective group is then stereotyping. people think that because i am white that i am racist well they are dumb two of my best friends are black and are women, this race issue just needs to drop already. its been years since martin luther king died hasn't anyone learned? hell this web site and others like it where people vent about how they are oppressed by other races is bullshit, there is going to be hardships for awhile from ignorant people who can't see past the race issue but when people sit here and talk about how they are being attacked by white, black or any other race of people it is just keeping the embers of this issue going. If white people are so racist y do u see them watching black comedians who continually insult the white people or other races? you know y? because they are funny and people know they don't really mean it. Why do black people go and watch white comedians or support white rock bands, that don't always include black people? becaus ethey are good, and people like them. and i can keep bringing up examples like this for every race.... but it would go on for ages. People got to just live with each other accept our minor differences and move on...
Nick
June 25 2004, 3:14PM
in response to those of u who feel u suffer from bad stereotypes others do to.... take me for example, i am a tall scrawny white male, people always assume i am rich, racist, snobby, asshole, tweaker,fag,jealous of blacks (i guess people think that because.... well i don't know but i have beeen asked that, which makes no sense to me.... i think we should be happy with who we are), and a prick.... everyone has good and bad stereotypes, and it sucks no one likes it but we have to live with it...and lets hope to change this in our future generations.... no matter who has "worse" stereotypes we are still all in the same boat, sorry for every stereotype anyone has had to put up with.... but no one is alone on this issue
anawfulnumberis2
October 15 2004, 2:12AM
the conversation y'all (pardon the expression, ha) are having here is very interesting to me. good discussion is always a plus. i was looking for some info on the interation between psychology and culture in people of native american descent and stumbled here. i'm white with a quarter mexican thrown in to the batch, but it doesn't show much so i can't really say i'm the object of much judgement. once i did go to a recruiting event for a college i was applying too though, and it was a recruitment day for latino and african-american students. i was surprised by the reaction of the other students toward me. i felt very unwelcome, like i was being judged on my appearance, not being ethnic enough. it was interesting, tables turned and all. anyways I just wanted to throw out some personal stuff and ask what everyone thought about bill cosby's comments a while back.
anawfulnumberis2
October 15 2004, 2:14AM
PS i think what you all mention about some white women grabbing their purses is a great point. my mom always lock the doors when we drive through neighborhoods with fewer white people, and it drives me crazy.