Blacks Launch Marriage Campaign

Cool
December 8 2003, 8:35AM

Right on, Keith. Let's do this. Let's get this done. How can I help you?

Bklynbro
December 8 2003, 11:31AM

How fabulous! This is great news! Keep on keepin' on. Please let me how I can help.

Christopher David
December 8 2003, 11:56AM

"Our relationship is just like many others. We take care of each other. We think about what the other needs. We work at our jobs, and we pay our taxes. But if something should happen to one of us, all that can mean nothing if the state, the hospital, the insurance company, or the employer doesn’t recognize our rights. We pay first-class taxes, but we’re treated like second-class citizens."

Powerful! Absolutely Powerful!

Kola Boof
December 8 2003, 1:49PM

Hi Christopher David!! (Smiling)

Love, Kola.

There's a "gay wedding" between two black men (one from 1990's America, one from 1990's Britain--but they fell in love in ancient Africa) in my 1995 novel "FLesh and the Devil".

It's just been translated to English by Said Musa and should be out next year (hope February). I don't find out the release date until this week (I am treated very badly in this industry).

I updated the wedding scene.

When that book originally came out in Morocco--no one was angry about the two black men marrying, because they thought it was slapstick comedy, a joke. They thought I was making fun of the female lead and of all black women. But there's nothing comical about it.

Frank Eggers
December 8 2003, 5:11PM

This is LONG overdue, but better late than never!

Regrdless of race and sexual orientation, we should all work together to solve the problems we are facing. We all share the same world and unless we understand this and act accordingly, progress for all of us will be unnecessarily limited.

saundra toby-heath
December 8 2003, 6:24PM

alicia and i want to thank both you and maurice for the chance to participate in todays press conference/it was enpowering/we were beginning to feel like we were out here all alone with no support from our community/any way we can help we will/peace and love...saundra and alicia

jasper
December 9 2003, 1:31AM

I still stick to my guns about this . We as a Black gay people should prioritize issues at hand!!! Educating the Black community, via the Black church, on the pressing delema of hiv in our (black and/or gay) community. I have been living with my lover for 5 years now and both our families knows our stance on our commitment to each other. I would much rather protest racism and black on black homophobia than to waste my time on such a monumental agenda. Let's face it. The white gay community is far more equipped than we are, both financially and politically. There, somebody had to say it.

ron
December 9 2003, 2:40AM

Jasper,

You have proved my point. The responses to this entry by Keith has been virtually empty all day. If Keith posted something about Michael Jackson or about sex, there would have been 1,000 responses. You and many like you are the problem with the black gay community (or lack of it). Instead of being proud of the finest objective for the black gay community to undertake, you criticize it. The apathy of black gays and the ignorance of the larger black community will continue to hinder any growth on this issue and others. No wonder as a black community we are stagnant. Keith, I thank you and the others and will support your movement. I will support it by discussing it with my family and even with my church. I will discuss at school. I will discuss it at the barbershop. Whoever wants to hear it, I will talk to them about it.

As for the so-called Christians and black conservatives who can't understand the connection between civil rights for gays and civil rights for blacks, let me try to briefly summarize it for you. The fight for equality has to do with your humanity. Slavery was wrong not because of the race of the slaves. Slavery was wrong because it denied a group of people their moral right to live for themselves. Would slavery have been any better if it was used against the blind or people who are left-handed? The fight for freedom is the fight to be recognized. Gay Americans have a duty and an obligation to press for true equality under the law. They have a greater right in terms of pressing for recognition that they are free to make moral choices. No government should deny anyone the right to be free and the right of self-existence. Black Americans don't understand this. We think always in terms of race. But I ask: what is race? When I die, do I maintain my race? Did I choose my race? Is there something inherent within me that makes me more African-American? I propose that race just like sexual orientation is a social construct and a way of separating us. Anyway,my point is we as a so-called group need to stop thinking in terms of race alone and fully embrace the idea that we should respect the humanity of all people even those we don't understand. I am disheartened by the American people and particularly African-Americans who appear to have given up the idea of true freedom. Not of race, not of sex, not of class, not of social status, but of humanity. If I am human, I can make choices for myself. Let us embrace our humanity. God does not make mistakes. The person born with a disability is due his/her full human potential. A homosexual, whether by genetics or life circumstances, should be able to determine the destiny of their life (whether they decide to embrace who they are or even if they opt for a more "conventional" existence). Finally, marriage must be defined as a union of 2 people who commit love and fidelity to each other. To deny this is to deny gay persons their full humanity.

mr
December 9 2003, 10:40AM

Well done. Please tell us what do you need us as individuals to do next? Petition? Email our
representatives?
Thanks for making the first move.

Tyrone
December 9 2003, 1:28PM

I totally agree with Jasper - Black gays have a long way to go before we can go jumping out there following some white gay agenda. I beleive there are more pressing issues that face us as black people that need to be dealt with first as opposed to this whole white gay agenda of 2 men being able to get married. For me first and formost - I am black first and gay secondly. Until there's an even playing field for black people as a whole - then and only then will I focus my energies on this whole idea of two men being able to legally marry. This is a prime example of divide and conquer - it started with the whole BS of black DL men spreading HIV/AIDS to black females - now gay and straight blacks will do battle over marriage. Where the hell are our priorities!?!?!

Kola Boof
December 9 2003, 2:35PM

RON...you're so right. Bravo.

Tyrone...you make good points, but still, securing the right to get married would automatically force some of your other priorities to be openly dealt with. The whites are already raising this issue to the forefront--there's nothing wrong with securing marriage rights since the issue is at hand.

But black gays can still start to raise other issues at the same time and work to end the hatefulness in our community against gay people.

You won't believe how deeply the African community hates and scorns gays. As an African woman, I am very ashamed that we are so sexist and brainwashed by religion. We need to go back to our mother's religion. In those ancient days, ALL the children were loved and accepted.

cmoney
December 9 2003, 9:53PM

I agree with Jasper and Tyrone. We will never stop being black and if everyone gets AIDS and dies, it doesn't matter whether or not we can get married or not. Our priorities are NOT the same as the white gay community's. They can tolerate more of Bush, hell, half of them voted for him. We cannot--as BLACK people put up with this wacko president for another term. The Black community is being destroyed by AIDS, racism, police brutality and economic upheaval. As I said before, pushing this agenda now will help to insure Bush's re-election. I applaud all of those who are in committed relationships and I was moved and thrilled to witness the marriage of Nigel and Al. I know that they truly love each other and are a great role model for anyone who wants to be married--gay or straight. I just don't see how helping to re-elect Bush helps any of us or our Black mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters or other relatives. We need to think about more than just ourselves.

ron
December 9 2003, 10:35PM

What is wrong with putting this issue to the forefront. Or better yet, why not discuss it. This idea that you are black first or gay first is stupid. This movement is not about being gay; or black gays versus the black community. It is about human dignity. The idea that the black community is going to lose itself over a discussion of accepting black gays into the mainstream of the community and go out and vote for George Bush is ludicrous. No, most blacks don't support it. However, most blacks hate George Bush. My father to this day does not recognize the Bush administration. Although he is against homosexuality, he won't hesitate one bit to vote against Bush. Matter of fact, he would vote for the 'queeniest, wrist twisting, finger snapping sissy' before he votes for Bush. (Excuse my language...I was just trying to get my point across)...

I say it again, we need to stop thinking about racial solidarity only and begin to see our struggle with others. Police brutality, AIDS, and other social diseases should not be our cause just because we are black. We need to ensure that any group of people who are oppressed are made free. Like I said earlier, our cause is not about race, class, gender, sexual orientation....it is about our common humanity. To sacrifice pressing for full inclusion does not help the cause of the black community. As King said, if one of us is not free, all of us are not free. I guess we just don't get it. Pressing for marriage equality is not a white thing. It is a human thing. The one I love should be protected in the event of my demise.

It is time for people to stop seeing themselves through the lens of social construction. Race is no more defined than sexual orientation. Being black means nothing to me in and of itself. I am black because I am black. But, what does it mean to say that I am black? No, rather, I am human. I am not bound to any group or persuasion. I am free to think for myself. I am free to love. Pressing for full inclusion is no different than blacks pressing for full equality as citizens. Keith, thanks again and God Bless you.

cmoney
December 9 2003, 10:55PM

RACE matters Ron, whether you want to believe it or not. A man in Cincinnati was beaten to death last week by cops who refused to recognize his humanity because of his race. They could have just let him be, like they often do when white individuals act out in public. Remember old Otis the drunk from the Andy Griffith show? He was seen as a member of the community with a drinking problem and was tolerated to the point that he let himself into the jail to sleep off his drinking. Imagine if he had been Black. He would have been beat down like Rodney King. The point I am making is that Black people face a very different reality in this country than white people. You will NEVER be viewed by whites as their equal and will be treated differently because of youir race, whether it means anything to you or not. White gays don't have this problem and, thus, have a different agenda. I wish it were not so, but Black people in America must look out for their own survival above all else. The white community is not faced with 50% of new AIDS infections happening in heterosexual women. The white gay community is not dealing with AIDS orphans. The white gay community is not ravaged by double digit unemployment. The white gay community is not profiled by cops while driving or while shopping. In fact, the white gay community is doing pretty damn good. We have major issues as BLACK PEOPLE that must be addressed that go beyond a personal decision to get married. It is just a matter of priorities. I choose Black because that is where the need is the greatest and that is what I am.

ron
December 9 2003, 11:45PM

I disagree with the whole premise of your argument. Although I don't believe in the idea of race, I do recognize its social importance. Yes, blacks face many problems in this country. But, the greatest problems are internal and self inflicted. To be clear, America has done harm to blacks but now we are perpetuating it mostly through our hardened ignorance. This ignorance is seen in our churches, schools, families, neighborhoods, etc. I don't want to be equal with whites. Blacks should not try to be equal with whites. However, we live under a Constitution that has meaning and any group no matter how small is protected by it and must appeal to it when rights are denied. Further, instead of trying to equal with whites, we all should strive to be more human and begin to love the humanity of others. God's world is diverse and beautiful and sacred. All of us.

The full inclusion of black gays is just as important as any other problem we face. Why do we have an AIDS epidemic in the US? Why are most of our children born out of wedlock? Why is there so much jealosy and strife within our community? Why is there so much abuse including sexually, mentally, emotionally, and physically in our community particularly done against our youth? Why do we still view women as inferior to men and therefore subjugated to men's desires and nothing else? When we think about, isn't the denial of gays inherently a disparagement against women? These are problems of the soul of black folks. When we can not respect nor recognize the love of a black gay man or woman, we are rejecting ourselves. The press for emanicapation and for civil rights was nothing more than the idea that blacks were human, period. Gays are human, period. And contrary to what you or anyone say, like the old Negro spiritual: and before I be a slave, I will be buried in my grave. We have to stop this insansity believing that whites control our lives. If this is the case, we are the ones to blame. No one can control you unless you give them that control. I for one am tired of looking without for answers. Blacks control most of our cities, school boards, churches, etc. There are scores of blacks who have been educated at the highest levels in the this country. We have blacks who are secretaries of state and UN presidents. There is no excuse for our condition today. Blacks achieved more from the end of slavery until the end of the 60s than what we are achieving now. If we don't understand that it is NOT about race and more about humanity and how we all are one, we are doomed the destiny of our so-called masters.

And for the record, white gays face enormous amounts of discrimination as any group. Forget what you see on TV. Freedom knows no color. I am thankful for white gays who have carried the torch although I criticize many of their elements who only seem to interested in maintaining the social status quo (i.e. Andrew Sullivan) and who can not understand that homosexuality is more about being human than some so-called sexual orientation classification.

You have the power to change and define your own life. If you want to see conditions change be apart of that change. Let's support Keith, but let us support others who are focuing on separate issues. There is room for all of us.

cmoney
December 10 2003, 7:15AM

I don't know whether our black gay leadership is in Fantasyland or Neverland. Either way, they risk becoming irrelevant to the majority of black gays who see their priorities as jobs, healthcare and survival. I am glad that some of us have the luxury of believing that race is not an issue in America. When you get called a nigger and discriminated against because of your race.. I will still be here with your back. Will the white gay community be there? White men are the top demographic in this country in every category--income, access to healthcare, education--you name it. We are being asked to follow their priority while ignoring our own pressing needs. That is ignorant. That is a recipe for disaster. It's like buying a Cadillac Escalade while still living in the projects--a misplaced priority. White gay males already have the best jobs, their own homes, neighborhoods, beach houses in Provincetown, vacations in Europe and we are still in the projects, literally and metaphorically--with our Escalade.

ron
December 10 2003, 8:32AM

You know, black folks know how to chew gum and walk at the same time. This is a valid concern and something we should be talking about. I don't think we should sweep it under a rug just because we all need healthcare. We don't need healthcare. We need soulcare. We need a healing of the soul which will include understanding the humanity of others. If we do we will stop many of the problems we face.

Being called nigger or what have you is not the problem. The same evil that will allow someone to call you this is the same evil of someone calling you a faggot. I can not say this enough. These are problems not endemic to race; it is endemic to our human condition. I am suggesting that we develop a whole new paradigm to deal with problems we all face.

By the way, the campaign's purpose is actually to stop the constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. You don't have to be a supporter of homosexual rights to support the idea that the federal government should have no say in a state issue. Issues of marriage should only be decided at the local level and this is why many conservatives are also against the amendment.

I have read many of your posts and I think we will remain at odds. It's ok. It's good to have a diversity of opinion. But let me conclude my thoughts. This year has been a tremedous year for gays. No longer is this issue at the fringe of society. At the same time, pastors all across the country have led a concerted campaign to harm the spiritual lives of black gays. Morton, Reid, Butler, Long and company have made the most ridiculous arguments why gay folks should lose their humanity in order to satisfy what they see as God's command. While the white gay community have several spiritual organizations to combat white evangelicals, black gays still worship in these churches and experience the continual onslaught on their souls. Well the time has come for black gays to reject this. Should women sit silent as they are continually subjugated in the church? Should gay men keep silent because they are sinners? No, it is time to speak. Again, it's not about being gay. It's recognizing that God has set everything in motion and loves the world He has created. We all have this power within us to create a destiny for ourselves. If we use it wisely and fruitfully, we can change the course of lives and others.

I digress....

Tyrone
December 10 2003, 11:55AM

Ron said: "We need to ensure that any group of people who are oppressed are made free". Ron are black folks not oppressed? Are there not huge inequalities that face us gay and straight as a community? The point that myself and C-Money are trying to make is that there are far more pressing issues that need to be dealt with. You sound like a white gay male with all your talks of an ideal world where color is not the issue -well in my world color is an issue every damn day and my color and the color of my people is of most importance to me. My sex life or who I choose to sleep with is of little of no concern - I don't need a damn marriage license, I don't need the government all up in my business - what I need is for an even playing field and until it is such my views will remain that we as a people have far more pressing issues to deal with. What about the folks in africa dying from AIDS - why not press congress to help out - but were pressing congress for marriage rights!?!?! What about the carribean, hell what about right here in our own damn country. The homelessness, poverty, black on black crime, police brutality, racial profiling - what the fuck about all that???Were fighting a fucked up war in Irag - have you and your Pro-Gay Marriage friends put as much energy and effort into that???

Just because I'm gay doesn't mean that I have to always support a cause that's gay, the same goes for my skin color. What I stand for is what's right and just. I'm not against gay marriage - I just feel that there are for more important and pressing issues and as my friend quoted above - you fools supporting this white gay agenda are doing nothing more than helping white gays re-elect their man George W Bush.

ron
December 10 2003, 2:46PM

Maybe it's the ideal that keeps me from seeing things the way you do. You want to allow the black community to continue to emotionally and spiritually abuse you, but in turn we all should be fighting for healthcare?????? If you can not see how being black in this country and the problems gays face are 1 in the same, then we are doomed.

First, blacks can tackle whatever issues facing the community at the same time. Second, I am not a white gay man. However, I give more respect to them then the majority of black gay men. Why? Because many of them are not afraid of being who they are and are not ashamed to speak out. When AIDS was spreading like wild-fire they organized and got things done. It has taken the black community well over 25 years to organize. Nobody in the community wanted to talk about it because it was seen as just punishment for gays and drug addicts. It is we who have failed us. You really don't understand what I am saying. I am rejecting whiteness while you are embracing it. What do I mean? Europeans have defined everything from race to gender to sexual orientation. We live in a world that responds to their classifications. You can not even explain what being black is. It's not a race, so what is it? I have rejected all attempts to define or classify me. THings that are factual I accept (African decent, dark skin, male, etc). However, I choose to think for myself. I don't think the way I do because I am black. I think the way I do because of my background and own personal development. But, I have learned to step out of the confines of race to see more objectively. I don't want to be white (whatever this means too)! But, I will not succomb to this idea that I must do whatever is in the best interest of blacks without pressing for my own needs. If this is a requirement, then I'm out. Yes, I am very idealistic and many people have a problem with that. However, I thank God for this. This idealism has gotten me where I have gotten along with the prayers and support of family and friends. Whiteness is the idea that anything which does not conform to a single standard is therefore rejected. Blacks are inferior because of their skin color. Gay men are inferior in a social sense because they express themselves contrary to an acceptable norm. This idea of whiteness is a total rejection of humanity. I contend there is no truth to race nor sexual orientation. People are not solely gay or straight. Instead people express themselves sexually and emotionally with whomever they wish. It should not matter who classifies themselves as gay or straight. It is more important to allow people to be people and recognize the immense diversity in this world. Whiteness is a false god and so is Blackness. We are all continuums. When we accept this, we realize there is no separation between us. This is how we are to heal the world.

Blacks are not going to vote for George Bush over this. Did you know that Cheney's daughter is a lesbian? Just a side note. Anyway, your argument is devoid of any historical significance. You sound like many who were telling King to stop pressing so hard for civil rights because you might upset the applecart. They told him that the south would be lost to the Democrats if he continued. Did King stop? No! Why? Because he was pressing for human recognition and not just for black rights. The press for human recognition does not bow to any political expediency. Last, if the white gay agenda is about being human, then sign me up. If blacks are going to continue to allow freedom and liberty to walk by them in order to appease the gods of black solidarity, then we have no future. We have problems and they are all tied together. If we recognize our oneness there is nothing any other group can do to stop us. However, if we continue to subscribe to male domination while subjugating women, accept an inferiority complex, allow our young to be abused sexually, emotionally, and physically, and buy into the gods of materialism, we are truly doomed. The spirit of African Americans has allowed us to survive. Our spirit is dying. Pressing for marriage equality is not about homosexuality. It is the recognition of humanity. If we deny others their humanity, we lose our own. All apart of the same problem. God help us...

Jack
December 10 2003, 5:03PM

Ron - it's tired black bitches like you that make this board suck! I'll bet you're one of them dark-skinned black country niggas that's constantly chasing after some white gay male. You sound bitter, self loathing, and physically insecure - I'll bet you're gruesome looking - most ugly folks are insecure and have to make up for it in someway or another - I figure your long drawn out diatribe of self hate and loathe and love and support for all and anyting that's white is your crutch. Just tell it like it truly is and be done - You support gay marriage because you want to be like white gays and most importantly because you hate your own dark black skin and that's fine but say it that way - don't sit up here and tell me that if we support gay marriage everything else - all the injustices and inequalities will just go away!?!?!? Git the fuck out of here! You are typical of gay white males -all for self period. I'll bet you only date white men cause I can't imagine a brotha having anything to do with you. Lastly it's so not about black solidarity but more so about the preservation of our culture! The same culture that spawned your nasty ass. Now go home and smack your father and rape your own mother like the white man did to our ancestors - you miserable piece of shit!

ron
December 10 2003, 5:17PM

Jack, what a counter to black inferiority! Great argument! I will not dignify a response other than to say that EVERYTHING you think you know about me is totally wrong. I have been in a committed relationship for 9 years. But, I am not going to resort to your name calling and insults. All I will say is that if I am seen as supportive to the so-called white gay agenda, maybe its because there is no black gay agenda other than sex, sex, sex, sex, and self-pity. I am happy to be alive and I am enjoying life. If I present a new radical view, it's ok if it is not accepted. God has blessed me tremedously because I have not succombed to thinking of the masses. But, no more. I will take your advice and go home. Thanks and God bless.

ron
December 10 2003, 5:31PM

Jack, one more point. It's funny that the white man may have smacked my father and raped my mother but now we are doing it to ourselves. Preserving any culture whether white, black, gay, or straight is not as important to me as the idea of true freedom. Yes, we should all strive to help all oppressed. This is not a zero sum game. But, no longer will I allow blacks to oppress each other whether through abuse or subjugation and not say anything. I could care less about healthcare or police brutality when we don't know how to treat each other. Forget about homosexuality. We still continue to hate our women by telling them they are inferior to black men's needs and should accept the way we are. I keep harping on the abuse thing because although I was never sexually abused many of our young are. Many of our women are. Black men as a whole have allowed the American society to due great harm to our pysche. All I am saying is that while we get ourselves together, we need to press the conscienceness of the community. I love black folks more than you will ever know. I am just disheartened that we as a group have not advanced as far as we can. Like I always say, we accomplished more from slavery through the 60s than what we are allowing to happen now. I digress, and again, sticks and stones may break my bones, and name calling does hurt. But in all, I can handle it and I love you too...

cmoney
December 10 2003, 7:26PM

Ron, I won't call names, but DAMN!!, if you represent where black gay leadership is going, we are in trouble. I will pray for all of us.

ron
December 10 2003, 8:12PM

CMoney,

I don't represent anyone except for myself. I probably wrote too much on this topic. But forgive me. I want to see all of us make it. I support Keith's efforts but I also recognize that we can't lose sight on other pressing needs either. My whole point is that these issues can at least be discussed (and should be discussed). My ideas about race and sexuality are not new and many others are beginning to see what I am saying. I just think some of you have missed my most important point which is race alone does not matter. Racism is evil and must be destroyed. Homophobia is evil too. Once we see the humanity in each other many of these problems can be solved. I am just tired of our organizations and churches which have truly lagged behind in helping our people. We are stuck on ideology and not on solving problems. It's time for us to embrace a progressive strategy to strengthen the community as a whole. In that, we agree.

Last point: read King's writings. They are truly inspiring particularly the speech he gave in NYC before he died (I think it is called "While They Slept"). It is the most revoluntary piece of writing that remains relevant for today. King did not see civil rights as about race alone. He saw in terms of human rights and was able to connect our plight with the Vietnamese and others. When you read it, you won't see yourself as just black, or gay, or straight, or brown, or male, or female. You'll see the connectedness of all of our struggles. Ok, I'll stop, but you get the point.

Frank Eggers
December 10 2003, 11:40PM

I strongly support Keith's efforts and will gladly contribute money to it if I can ever find out where to mail the check and how to make it out.

During the 1960s, many gay white men and women supported the struggle in the south for black persons who, at that time, were unable to vote or even to eat at a lunch counter. Some were even jailed for their efforts. Although I am a gay white man, I was unable at that time to become involved, but supported the effort. I find it offensive when ANYONE has restrictions put on his / her life because of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. etc.

Progress in civil rights will advance most rapidly if we all work together. Moreover, I find it disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, that some black gays (probably a minority) are unable to see the importance of working together for a common cause, i.e., fair treatment for all.

We have no right to expect help unless we are willing to give help.

It may be that some readers of this will distort what I have said and use it to excoriate me. About that, I can do nothing. So be it!

jasper
December 11 2003, 1:27AM

Thank you so much Jack and Tyrone for those fiery and true comments concerning this idiotic idea of black gay folk supporting this so-called same sex marriage fiasco! They,re absolutly right, I don't want the government in my bedroom any more than they are now. Why give these government hillbillies more fodder to harrass an already oppressed minority of a minority. I doubt very seriously that any grass roots black organization ( naacp,core, black caucaus, etc.) would even shift an eye to black gay folk rallying behind a bunch of gay white folks who already has everything and now want attack an issue which would probably, not only put black gay people issues on the back burner, but black folk in general. But yet and still, some black conservative-ass televangelist will add there two cents and ignore the real problems confronting the black community. Little do they know they're gearing up to be smoke screens for hog-jowled, bible thumpping, hypocrites(white televangelist). And as for you Frank Eggers, your cream is not welcomed in this coffee!

Jasper

Frank Eggers
December 11 2003, 6:11AM

Jasper,

Blacks welcomed our white help to end the discrimination which made life so miserable for many blacks for centuries. Granted our ancestors started the problem, but it doesn't matter who started it. The fact is that because some of us whites worked against the white perpetraters of racial discrimination, blacks are much better off. In working for civil rights, some whites were ostracised from family and friends, and some were even martyred, but we did it because it was the right thing to do. I'm sure that most of us don't expect any awards for doing what should have been done generations ago. But one would think that at least there could be some acknowledgement that without help from fair-minded whites, white racism would now be as bad as it ever was.

No doubt after generations of discrimination, some blacks have been permanently damaged. That sort of damage gets passed on from generation to generation and probably explains much of the hostility that some blacks have aginst whites.

Jasper, it is interesting that, in your last sentence, you presume to speak for all blacks. I certainly do not speak for all whites, all Episcopalians, or all gays, and I fail to understand why you think you speak for all blacks.

Progress would be faster if we got rid of all this hostility, but you don't seem to be willing to work toward that goal. Fortunatly there are people of all races who are working to end hostility and they are contributing more to ending racism than those who continue to act in a hostile manner.

Jack
December 11 2003, 2:39PM

Frank Eggers - Who gives a rats ass how much you and a handfull of whites helped out back in the day. What do you want for doing the "right thing" as you put it??? It's so typical of a white man -to come in here and talk about the hostilities that blacks hold towards whites - give me a fucking break - you big black dick loving cracker!!! Go back to your white gay brothers and tell them to mend their self-centered, racist ways and then we can discuss my hostilies toward your race! Better yet - come to DC Dupont Circle area and see how segregated the clubs are! I find white gays males to be far more racist than their hetero counter parts!!! Instead of coming up in here go start your own damn website and educate your white gays cause that's where the problems lie!

Ron - you really are pathetic - "I've been in a relationship for 9 years" who the fuck cares??? As I said before - I gurantee you he's white! Tell the truth - he's a white man and you know it! Of course you'd support gay marriage cause your white gay boyfriend overwhelmingly supports it and has brainwashed your insecure ass into feeling superior when deep down inside your just an insecure nigga sucking white ass. Your not concerned about health care you say - I guess not - I'm sure your boy is well insured as are most white gay men but what about your less fortunate brethren??? Oh and your generalization of all black gays being intersted in is sex, sex, sex, sex - proves my point that you hate yourself - white gays are all about sex-sex-sex but it's okay right??? Gay men in general you ignant asshole are far more sexual then their hetero counter parts! But for you to generalize black gay men implies that you're bitter from past experiences which again proves my point that no brotha will have you -so you hate yourself and the brothas and thus your pro gay marriage stance! Now marinate on that and remember that you will and always will be a nigga to whitey -even if they don't say it to your damn face - know this!

ron
December 11 2003, 3:19PM

Jack,

I promised myself that I was not going to write another message about this topic or in response to dumb statements but I must. You're right no one cares about my relationship. But, the person I am with is black but even so, it does not matter. I will not allow dumb a*# negroes like yourself or anyone to silence those who are pressing the real problems of the community (one of which is acceptance). Forget what I said about race and sexuality for a momemt. I'll accept your premise of a black reality. However, this reality is limited and should not stop any of us from discussing what's wrong. Why do I criticize black gays? Because we continue to allow the community to kill us spiritually and emotionally. The AIDS problem in black America in part comes from the community fearing that there really are thousands of black folks who are gay and lesbian. We don't want to talk about this and think we can sweep in under the rug. You and many others like you will give money to churches but will tell Keith Boykin to take a hike. In the areas I have lived in the Northeast, I continue to see black gay men in particular dying because they are not free to be themselves. The idea that a black man can love another black man is something our community hates and this is the reason why we don't speak out. The larger community is fearful and the black gay community is also fearful. What Keith and others are trying to do is to break this chain of fear and let others know that we are here, we can be successful, and live fruitful lives. It's sad that while some black gays are pressing for marriage equality the rest of the community seems to be shunning from commitment. I will say it to the rooftops, we as a group need help that the government nor your master can provide. If we can not commit to our lovers, we can not commit ourselves to the community. You have expressed the very problem you accuse me of. There is a total lack of commitment to each other in the black community. I go to churches in urban neighborhoods where well over 60% of the perishoners live in the suburbs away from the very people they need to help. We are disintegrated and this has added to the problems we have. No, I am very much in tuned with what's going on but I am not about to keep quiet on this topic or any other topic. I want you and everyone to know that I am angry. I am angry at the media, angry at our government, angry at schools, churches, and communities. Black men are treated like dogs in this country and totally disrespected unless you are of the caliber of a Clarence Thomas or Colin Powell (to a lesser degree). I will stand any day with you or Frank Eggers to fight a racist and hegemonic society that does not care about the poor or oppressed. However, if I see you doing something wrong, I will tell it to you. I am critical of all of society. However, my anger means nothing if it is not channeled properly. You are missing the whole point of the National Black Justice Coalition's purpose. But, that's just like many of us who fail to read or comprehend. Those who identify themselves as black gay men need to stand up and stop the abuse. If this throws the community into a hissyfit than so be it. Change goes down hard. But, I do recognize other problems which I believe are spiritual that have to be dealt with first before we can truly heal and move forward. Calling each other names and making groundless claims will not solve one thing. That's all folks.

jasper
December 11 2003, 4:32PM

Frank Eggers, who gives a 'possum's vigina about this so-called "white help" your folks gave sometime back. Can you see the monster you all created,huh? How dare you say I speak for all black gay folk. I clearly speak for myself. Speaking of strange bedfellows. Why is it that all these white gay organizations seem to pronounce themselves as Gods of representation even when it comes to black gay issues. They are not and will never be in touch with anything but Abercrombie&Fitch and those ridiculous, over-rated, spiked-haired, West Hollywood momma's boys-the so-called Fab 5. Guess your eyes were so cloudied by black crotches, that you again failed, like times before, to get the point from people like me, cmoney and Jack are trying to drill into your dense skull that your white brand of activism don't work here.
And Ron, my poor misguided soul. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It's mainly overt theorist like you is why ANY black gay issues are brought to light. You think that sugared-down epitahs of why we "can't all get along" is going to move the black commmunity, you got another think coming, my friend. Everything looks good on paper. But before true change can occur, people like you are certainlly going to have to use your intelligence and cute, psycho-babble for something else other than Stepin' Fletchit' dreams that ain't about to come true. So get off your leather chair and from behind your big oak desk and get down here with the real people.
Jasper

MIghtyGood
December 13 2003, 2:35PM

Scenario: Now in 2003. Grant money for African-American Gay and bisexual men given to a white HIV-AIDS agency and thet agency only has one Black employee to run a Black intervention program. However a white gay male has final say over everything as Executive Director. This same Executive Director refused to make the only Black at the egency a salaried employee for five years, keeping the Black at hourly pay. All other employees are white and hired in as salaried.
This is real life. So we are not equals to White gay males and their agenda is not our agenda.
Hell I can't think about gay marriage when I'm still fighting for survival in something as basic as employment.
Now I'm sure Ron has some answers for me. This is only one thing in a Black man's life like mine and yes I am highly educated, articulate, and one of the leaders in my Black gay community. However, the white gay community here discounts me and my brothers. Our issues are not important to White gays. So explain why this White gay boy could not see fit to understand that this Black gay man deserves all the prosperity and respect of employment as he feels he deserves. Yet he often wants to talk to me about Presidential candidate Dean and gay marriage.
I would like to see gay marrieage but it is not tops on my priority list for survival.

ron
December 13 2003, 5:04PM

Mighty Good,

White gay men can be as racist as anyone. We are all affected by racism. All I am saying is that gay marriage or at least the opportunity to marry the person you love is not a black or white issue. If you are in a relationship, committed to one another and something happens, you need legal protection. I am not saying we should press for gay marriage per se. However, the black community needs to recognize there are thousands of black gay men and lesbians who are not ashamed of themselves. This movement is important to let gays who have been suffering internally know that they are ok. It's time to put a face on black gay America.

My priorities in life include being respected and being treated as a human person. I can not fight against racism but allow the black community to emotionally abuse black gay men and women. How can we truly stand together if the community is not concerned with my needs, act like we don't exist, and condemn us to hell.

I do have a problem with many white gay males because they seem only interested in preserving privilege and not really breaking down barriers. Many of you are right: the moment gay unions/marriage are allowed many of them will feel they have achieved a certain status and say the hell with everyone else. I am very critical of this element of their community. However, I support anything that is right no matter who is sponsoring it.

jasper
December 14 2003, 2:03PM

Thanks a million MightyGood. I hear you loud and clear, as you can see from my previous comments every since this whole thing about raising tons of money to gain some sort of stance in pushing this gay marriage thing. I could hardly beleive my eyes when I read the articles concerning the support of something as insignificant as gay marriages( especially in the black gay community!) I have agreed with Mr.Boykins on a majority of his efforts, but this one completely stunned and baffled me.Just read my comments. I can't believe that Mr. Boykin is doing exactly what we, black gay concerned citizens, have been complaining about for decades. Just because you are educated, popular, articulate, and learned, doesn't mean that you have the answers to black gay people's problems. I am not going to follow somebody's agenda because they are just that! This whole thing has been an eye opener. I am gradually seeing why we as black folk, gay or straight hasn't made a whole lot of headway in our struggles in years. Why should we believe or follow a person because they are articulate, popular, well educated(of course education helps). Case in point. Just because Johnson publishing and BET has money and popularity to backing them, they are not the voice of black America! These people ( Jet, Ebony BET) don't know the meaning of responsible journalism. These medias should be vessals for communication within the black/gay community. Heck, the space that Ebony and Jet provides for their own family ( the Johnson family, that is) should be given to much more deserving causes. Activsm, not pacifism is seeminly the road we are going to tread in order to get results! And Ron, do you have any clue as to where you stand here? You are about the most wishy-washy commentator on this web site. Man, what's your problem!! Keith say it ain't so that you are "selling out"

Russell
December 14 2003, 11:02PM

How can people work together unless they respect one another?

It is impossible for any 2 thinking persons to agree on everything. Thus, it should not be surprising that some guys think that same-sex marriage should be given a low priority while others see it is very important. But this contstant attacking of others who have different opinions is basically destructive and will impede progess.