Noah's Arc Butches Up

maroon
November 10 2005, 3:41AM

Well I guess it won't always hit a home run. Like any other series. Maybe we need to stop analyzing the show so closely.

jazzi
November 10 2005, 8:30AM

I too will continue to watch but I must say that last nights episode was a little dry.

taylor Siluwé
November 10 2005, 8:54AM

Oddly enough, I thought last night's episode was one of the better ones.

Chance playing thug was not only priceless ... but it touched on a rampant problem in our community: young black gay men 'aping' the criminal thug hard-core hip-hop lifestyle. They didn't attempt to glorify the practice ... actually, they showed how ridiculous it is.

Ricky is on his way to being the hated character, you are so right. Let me be the first to say ... Ricky needed an ass-whuppin last night. Hopefully, Chance has nothing to do with him until he changes his ways.

I'm gonna take a gamble here ... how many of you have a 'Ricky' in your circle of acquaintances? I definitely do. He'll leave his mama in the cold for an impromptu nut. I believe this points to another serious problem amongst black gay men. Sex addiction.

Why does the brain just shut down when a pretty boy arrives on the scene? I could see it happening ... could see Ricky completely forget what he doing and where he was going at the sight of the hunky stripper at the door. He's a train-wreck waiting to happen.

This episode tackled issues our community needs to face up to. I'm growing prouder of the show and its participants by the second.

mr
November 10 2005, 9:29AM

I thought last night's episode was one of the better ones. I don't think Ricky forgot about Chance, I think he chose to let him wait until he finished what he wanted to do. He chose sex over his friend.

Daugur
November 10 2005, 9:35AM

I didn't think this episode was DRY or slow--this episode is setting up future storylines.

The inevitable Wade/Noah conflict (career over relationship). Noah is wrong you know--but the main character has to have some flaw, otherwise he would be too Mary Tyler Moore-ish. Too cute and too perfect.

Chance/Boyfriend/T-Money triangle

Alex's Black Aids Institute [BAI] Uummh to be realistic, the name has to be changed. People will be scared to be seen near the place!! I have directed focus groups in the urban community--this was an issue.)

BAI will do three things... First, this setting will place the characters out of there homes and into a most certain danger. I smell a season cliffhanger from this one.

Finally,
This BAI setting could be tied to Ricky's sex addiction. I don't think he is an unlikeable character tho. And yes Taylor, you are right.
Every group of friends has or HAD someone like Ricky. The actor delivers his lines VERY well and is funny. His facial expressions are priceless. He's arguably the best actor on the show. Also, all the other main characters have external problems--Ricky's is internal--he has an addiction and is the most likely candidate to grow and move on.

Mike
November 10 2005, 10:10AM

What a great show - constantly entertaining and always going left when you think it's headed right, I'm SO happy this show grace's my TV every Wednesday night...

Same time, I LOVE the music and am trying to fill in a few missing songs I couldn't decipher - I have most of the tracks though. If you know any - head over to the Noah's Arc Messageboard and see if you can help! Or stop by to chat or look up music from past episodes!

Let's get together and show support for this great show so that it doesn't fall by the way!

http://p105.ezboard.com/bnoahsarc

Tab
November 10 2005, 10:10AM

TAB IS DA HOTTEST GAY RAPPER, FUCK FIDDY
WWW.TAB2012.COM

Justin
November 10 2005, 1:14PM

Does anyone know the song that played at the end when Noah gave Wade the car for his birthday present?

E-RED
November 10 2005, 1:15PM

Taylor, I agree w/you here. "Chance playing thug was not only priceless ... but it touched on a rampant problem in our community: young black gay men 'aping' the criminal thug hard-core hip-hop lifestyle."
However, I disagree w/you here: "They didn't attempt to glorify the practice ... actually, they showed how ridiculous it is."

For some of us, it's not ridiculous ... it's a right of Black male passage.

As an ivy-league educated Black man, I personally had to "get in touch w/my inner homie" in order to reconcile my homosexuality w/my masculinity. True, aping thuggish-ruggish behavior is ridiculous ... however, for me it proved the quickest way to integrate the many disparate parts of myself into a complex, coherent whole. At 26, I gathered the inner strength to externalize my homosexuality, and came out. Because all the gays I knew of were female-identified, I delved headfirst into the feminine affectations which some call faggot behavior. This inchoate Ms. Thing went in real deep, gurl ... lingo over lingered DOWN (*snap*)! You really didn't want it!! (*LAFF*) And I was on every guest-list of every in crowd. Yet, after having my fun, eventually those external stereotypical affectations which were just gay fell away ... but those inner emotional frameworks which were homosexual stuck w/me.

Later, I hit 30, bought my first pair of butta Timbs, and hit the hip-hop SGL spots. HARD. Could thug-hip and gansta hop as if I was born in the PJs. And was fine at a club ... as long as I didn't open my mouth to speak. Like T-Money said, "I like that. Your educated azz callin me nigga!"

(*secretly, I liked it too ...*)

So Taylor, all I'm sayin is, at the end of the day, it's all about balance. Just as the pendulum swings to first one extreme to the other, at some point it centers itself, and comes to a sweet rest.
In my book, any Black man who tries to center himself never looks ridiculous; he looks beautiful. And I must say, I thought Chance never looked more beautiful that last night! (*sly grin*)

It's the process, bruh ...

Q
November 10 2005, 2:17PM

I digress, last night was by far my most favorite episode. Reviewing the post so far, it is apparent that there really is a disconnect within the community. The script for me is not completely realistic but I think the approach to showing the characters outisde of their gayness was valuable. I had began to feel that all they were was gay...and I'm happy we got to experience them more intimately. Especially Alex [the best actor] not being a big ole queen in the workplace, that's real.

E-RED I like your post bruh, you cleared up somethings I was trying to say. There is evolution in any sub-culture, an experience if you will, and it ain't all it has been portrayed as on the Noah's Arc series.

Delving Deeper is always important as my best friend has taught me. So while I'm liking the script's progress, I wish they didn't cram so much into the 22 minutes they have to tell a story....I'd like to see them focus the episodes: intoduce some storylines but resolve them in later episodes. We got that Alex didn't like the restrictions at work we could forsee him leaving, that scene could have waited and we would have been able to really deal with Noah's rent issue. I like were the writing is going but let's have more substance. BTW this is the first black gay series on national television, we should critque it and analyze it because these are characters we should be able to indentify with...true enough you can't be all things to all people but you can make the characters relatable. Additionally, TV formulas dictate that dramas have hour-long episodes, situational comedies 30 minutes.....you can keep it funny Patrik.

Mike
November 10 2005, 2:42PM

Justin:
That song was "Flowers in the Window" by Travis (it's available on iTunes). Link: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPublishedPlaylist?id=543402&s=143441

Apparently the version on the show was a cover by Patrik-Ian Polk (The show's creator).

Check out a song-by-song analysis of each week's episode at the Noah's Arc Messageboard:
http://p105.ezboard.com/bnoahsarc

taylor Siluwé
November 10 2005, 4:52PM

E-RED ...

You are SOOOOO right! Thanks for putting it so eloquently.

I too swung left and right for a bit, so how dare I call it silly? Thanks for setting me straight ... 'cause I so hate to be crooked.

junie
November 10 2005, 10:10PM

Hi, I too loved last night's episode. I have been videotaping each one so I can look at it again and again. It's really good to see shows about us (black gays). Can anyone tell me how sang the song from last week's show when Alex and the guys were performing to in the drag show? Thanks

faye
November 10 2005, 10:20PM

i love the show now when can i get my book i,am still waiting for that book patrik.i love noah and wade ,alex andtrey .as lone as this show is running i will watch it over/over/over again.thankyoumr.polk for all your hard work a fan always.

Jamie
November 10 2005, 11:08PM

We, love Noah's Arc
we, want more!!!

Mike
November 11 2005, 1:29AM

Junie:

That song was "Lovin' Is Really My Game" originally by Brainstorm, but covered by Mary Ann Tatum for the show - Mary Ann is a long time backup singer and close friend of Mariah Carey. Girl is on FIAH! Unfortunatly, Mary Ann's version is currently unavailable, but you can get Brainstorm's version and a few other covers.

For any other questions regarding the music on the show, check out a song-by-song analysis of each week's episode at the Noah's Arc Messageboard:
http://p105.ezboard.com/bnoahsarc

Laura
November 11 2005, 6:17PM

OT but did anyone else get this in their email today? posted this earlier today in a thread now off the front page:

speaking of pseudo-separatist, blacker than thou cult member behavior, someone sent this after the fact keith-bashing/Farrakhan worshipping article to my inbox today under the name, "cleomanago@aol.com" (i seriously doubt he sent it to me, personally.)

"So, Cleo, What Really Happened with you and Boykin Regarding the Millions More Movement March?

By Cleo Manago"

article is here:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleomanagosblog/

STEVE
November 12 2005, 12:44AM

I believe this show is horrible!.However i remain openminded and watch episode after episode to forumulate theories and opinions and even facts.The show is so fantasy and fabricated and it seems like its on a level of """"wish it were that way"""when it really isnt.Dl thugs having open sexual relations with feminine men,so not happening in real life!,MASC men going after trannies,it happens bigtime however not with a masjority of them because they have this menality if i wanted a fem i'd continue to fuck a female(especially the downlow bros),I sooke to the director and i know were his head his.I told him do you not realize that complaining about men not coming out some closet then making a show showing a bunch of girly acting men just drives men further into some closet or into keeping here business to themselves.He got angry because he could not accept the truth.Most of society has major resentment toward the feminine male.I am sick and tired of openly gays having this mentality that "'coming out""is having pride or security when those two come within yourself, and alongs you are aware of what you are to yourself you dont owe anyone any explanation,you can deny it to 56 people alongs you know what you are to yourself it is not living this so called lie.What i have notice in studying,observing and through experience with many openly gay men who such an issue with dl guys is that they have a level of misery and loneliness they are unaware of,Wanting others to come out and be like them as if there way of going about things is right and all others all wrong which is very selfish thoughted.I realize many just hate the fact that there dream of gays coming in the largest numbers and being respected and receiving equal rights as straight(which shows an inferiority complex with them) cannot happen alongs men and women remain dl or discreet or keep there business to themselves.Then i ask who are you to criticize someone else for not living life like you.When will you people realize this hiding in the closet crap to me stems from a level of misery and loneliness many openly gay men who harp on it hard are not aware they have.Pretending to care for women gettin hiv from these dl thugs screwing each other rubberless,when the day before the same gay guy who is now pretending to care for women catching this disease,was just dogging women out.MISERY LOVES COMPANY!!!!!!! AND MISERABLE NEVER SUCEEDS IN THE END.WHEN THE GAY SOCIETY REALIZES THAT PORTRAYING EFFEMINATE MEN ALWAYS WHEN IT COMES TO BLACK AND LATINO GAYS,THIS JUST FURTHER MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO KEEP THERE BUSINESS TO THEMSELVES.I AM NOT HATING JUST BEING REAL.I FIND IT SAD THAT THE WHITE BOYS EVEN THE MOST FEMININE ONE NAME EMMETT ON QUEER AS FOLK ARE 5 TIMES MORE MASCULINE THAN 90 PERCENT OF THE CHARACTERS IN THIS FANTASY SHOW

Laura
November 12 2005, 3:45AM

"MISERY LOVES COMPANY!!!!!!!"

then why don't "MASC" types stop this ceaseless WHIMPERING like BABIES, and produce your own damn show?

go on, i dare you. do yourselves a favor.

Gayle
November 12 2005, 5:10AM

First, to the creative team behind NOAH'S ARC: Love the show. Love it, love it, love it!!! Keep doin' exactly what you're doing!!!

And to this Steve person: You're insane. There's just no nice way to put it.

But do yourself and all of US a favor and just STOP WATCHING Noah's Arc. If you hate it as much as you claim to, then why continue to torture yourself? What's really going on with you, Steve? When I see a TV show that I hate, I simply stop watching. This was the case with Queer As Folk, as well as many other shows. Why can't you just do the same?

This show obviously doesn't portray anything about the black gay community that you want to see, so change the channel already and stop your belly-aching. The rest of us have a show to enjoy...

G.

Jeffrey
November 12 2005, 10:02AM

E-RED's comment about "get in touch w/my inner homie" made me laugh so hard my head slid out of my butt for a minute. Tell me about it girl, I'm white and blonde! And while we're on the subject what is this Black Maid's Institute? But alas, I have solved the Noah and Wade thing. Simply teleport them to be bedroom, naked.

steve
November 12 2005, 3:25PM

See,Thats what i am saying you tell gay men something that is truthful and they insult you becuase they cannot face the truth or what they fear just may be the truth,First off,i will watch the show each and everytime i feel like it and voice an opinion and theres nothing you or anyone else can or will do about it.You kill me you cry about men and women being DL and closeted,yet you display a show that depicts all black gay men as being sissified which does nothing but makes individuals not be in the scene.The truth is society as a whole ,or much of it will does not and will not be associated with a feminine man.Its the real reason why people keep there sexuality to themselves.Its kind of like saying WHO WANTS TO HANG AROUND A MAN WHO ACTS LIKE A WOMAN AND A MAN WHO IS SO INSECURE WITH BEING A MAN HE TRANSFORM INTO A WOMAN?? not in this society.The attitude many gays have and there mentalities just make me laugh hard as you who criticize the DL and discreet live in your misery your unaware you have.Your hopes and dreams of everyone who likes the same sex being like you and doing what you do and coming out so you can stand in one big army and try to reach the same level of straight which shows an inferiority complex you have,WILL NEVER EVER BE REACHED!,BECAUSE THAT MENTALITY

Laura
November 12 2005, 4:09PM

"The truth is society as a whole ,or much of it will does not and will not be associated with a feminine man."

you guys are a real riot.

so utterly petrified of what "society" and other people may or may not think. in case you didn't notice, societies change and grow, including this one. it doesn't happen over night, and will not be to our liking by tomorrow morning, but it is always changing.

but that's the catch. a changing society that allows for nelly men is a THREAT to you clowns who believe gender roles are absolute and set in stone. guess what, they aren't, never have been, never will be.

be a real man, stop trying to control everything, keep your weary old homophobia and fag bashing to yourself, it's embarassing to watch.

Laura
November 12 2005, 4:14PM

Gayle said to Steve, "This show obviously doesn't portray anything about the black gay community that you want to see, so change the channel already and stop your belly-aching. The rest of us have a show to enjoy..."

seriously. or go make your own show filled to the brim with posturing, simpering, preening, steroid-poisoned thuglets if you want, and quit whining like a spoiled two year old.

BJP
November 12 2005, 4:23PM

I do enjoy Noah's Arc, but I have to say it makes me wince, alot, when I see the story of 3 obvious screaming queen bottoms and a promiscious "macho" dude. The outfits, especially Noah's, look like they came out of the Barnum & Bailey School of Design. I can tell you that if he actually showed up at The Catch looking like that he'd never make it to the top of the stairs.
The writers (of Noah's Arc) seemed to have watched too much Sex in the City, because of all the over-the-top scenerios and seems like it's written with a straight person's narrow-minded perspective, just like Sex in the City was written by gay men. How many "big ol' girl" plotlines can you have?

Laura
November 12 2005, 4:37PM

Steve said, "Your hopes and dreams of everyone who likes the same sex being like you and doing what you do and coming out so you can stand in one big army and try to reach the same level of straight which shows an inferiority complex you have,WILL NEVER EVER BE REACHED!,BECAUSE THAT MENTALITY"

lol whatever.

i guess women's suffrage was a cowardly display of inferiority complex as well as all of Civil Rights. thinking Blacks are entitled to the same rights as whites when "society" says no, those fools! lol

if just the idea of equality is so traumatic for them then no, we don't want them to "come out". fuck them, they can go fly a kite.

it's difficult enough carrying around these dead-weight sqawking DL status quo parrots. the goal is fewer troubles, not more.

who needs an army of albatrosses? lol

Gayle
November 12 2005, 10:14PM

Laura, I love you! You're fierce!!!

Janet Norfleet
November 13 2005, 2:53PM

I love the show "Noah Arc". I can wait to see more episodes,those of you don't like the show and still talking bad about it you're not sure of your sexuality, thank god for giving us black writers and producers now it's our turn to shine.

Thank You
Janet

Ronnett Lakenya
November 13 2005, 3:01PM

I am glad to see people of color in a different life. Homosexuality is not a white thing, it's a human thing. I hope Logo show more episodes of "Noah Arc" for the sake of their gay and straight fans.

Thank you,
Ronnett

Kenneth Winfrey
November 13 2005, 9:44PM

Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinions because that's what makes us unique individuals. However, Polk is clearly not attempting to make a documentary--it's supposed to be entertainment. It is not a matter of opinion, it's just plain WRONG to hold the show to such a standard.

If you're not represented, or don't feel that it affirms your existence, then you have two choices: 1: Don't watch the show (or engage anything else, for that matter) that you find perpetually irritating. "Noah's Arc" is not on any known lists of compulsory television, m'kay...

2. Watch the show and open your mind to what these people as creative artists have done. The writer and actor have no obligation to any of you. As an artist, the obligation is only to the truth of the artist. For example, I don't like "Fiddy," so I change the channel when he shows up, and I most certainly don't purchase his music. However, it's obvious that there are people that love him, and I am in no position to say that he should represent my interests.

Others have stated on other posts that many of us here have an obsession with "representation." Not everyone can be Harvey Milk or Martin Luther King.

SMACKY
November 13 2005, 11:31PM

LAURA,,,Sometimes,,you need to hush your damn mouth,,the crap you say makes no sense half the time.

WOMAN YOUR ASS NEEDS TO WAKE THE FUCK UP AND REALIZE,,DL WILL ALWAYS EXIST,,HAS ALWAYS EXIST WILL ALWAYS EXIST,,YOU CAN GO OUT YOUR WAY TO TRY TO STOP IT ALL YOU WANT AND THERE IS NOTHING,,NADA,,YOU CAN DO NOTHING,,YOU POSTING 5 DIFFERENT MESSAGES TALKING BOUT BEING A REAL MAN?? WHAT THE FUCK,MOST OF THESE REAL MEN ARE THE DL BROTHERS CAUSE FOR DAMN SURE SOME SISSY WHO COULDNT BE DL IF HE WANTED TOO AINT NO REAL MAN OR WOULD BE CONSIDERED ONE ESPECIALLY REFERRING TO HIMSELF AND OTHER MEN AS ""GUURRLL"" CHILLE,,STEVE MADE ALOT OF SENSE AND I FELT EVERYTHING HE WAS SAYING,YOU WANT DL MEN TO STOP BEING DL,,BITCH CAN YOU NOT SEE WHAT STEVE IS SAYING,,HE IS SAYING ALONGS AS BLACKS KEEP PORTRAYING LATINOS AND BLACKS AS FEMININE FLAMBOYANT SISSY ACTING GAY MEN IT DOES NOTHING BUT HURT YOUR DREAM OFOTHERS,,SOMETIMES ITS BEST TO SHUT THE FUCK UP!,YOU ARE A WOMAN AND IT SEEMS YOU ARE QUITE ANGRY AT AL MEN AND WANT IT TO STOP,,IT WILL NEVER STOP,,AND SOCIETY WILL ALWAYS BE AGAINST EFFEMINATE MEN AND DRAG QUEENS AND TRANNIES,IT IS NOT NORMAL TO A MAJORITY AND IT IS NOT ACCEPTED AND IT NEVER WILL BE ESPECIALLY IN YOUR MILITARY,,WAKE THE HELL UP MAMA,,STEVE GOT A POINT,,MANY GAYS DO HAVE AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX,,PRIDE DOES COME WITHIN YOURSELF,,CAN YOU NOT REALIZE WHAT HE IS SAYING IS GAY MEN THAT ARE OPEN GENERALIZE AND MAKE UP ASUMPTIONS ABOUT DL MEN ,BECAUSE THEY ARE MISERABLE AND WANT ALL DL MEN TO COME OUT SOME CLOSET THAT DOES NOT EXIST SO THEY CAN MARCH IN ONE ARMY AND STAND TO THE STRAIGHTS AND DEMAND GAY RIGHTS,THATS A FANTASY DREAM THAT WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN,YOU CANNOT FORCE ANYONE ESLE TO DO ANYTHING ESPECIALLY IF THERE CONTENT WITH KEEPING THERE SEXUALITY TO THEMSELVES,,YOU NEED TO READ A FUCKING BOOK WOMAN,,YOU GOT A FUCKED UP MENTALITY THATS ALOT SIMILAR TO THESE MISERABLE ASS SISSIES AND FAGGOTS MAKING UP ASSUMPTIONS AND LIES THEY WANT TO BELIEVE ABOUT THESE DL BOYS THAN FACE WHAT IT REALLY IS,IF THEY EVEN KNOW TO THEMSELVES

Jeff
November 13 2005, 11:39PM

Thank you Kenneth. How many times can someone say that this show is not supposed to represent all of black gay culture. And on another note, if the so-called "masculine" gay man would step up and stop hiding rendering himself "invisible" because he can fit into societal norms, then maybe there would be more of a representation.

Laura
November 14 2005, 1:21AM

"LAURA,,,Sometimes,,you need to hush your damn mouth,,the crap you say makes no sense half the time.

WOMAN YOUR ASS NEEDS TO WAKE THE FUCK UP AND REALIZE,,"

whatever, stop yelling.

Laura
November 14 2005, 1:27AM

"Laura, I love you! You're fierce!!!"

thanks, Gayle.

i am so sick of these pseudo-nationalist homohets who think they are going to force the rest of us back into hiding due to their own hangups.

best they can do, is TYPE IN ALL CAPS and console themselves with "shut up, waaaah you WOMAN you...boo hoo!!! lol

they can kiss my ass. simpletons.

Kenneth Winfrey
November 14 2005, 1:35AM

So, let me get this straight (no pun intended):

DL men want everyone ELSE to represent them, and give them the luxury of being absolved of the responsibility for their own representation?

And, are we to oppress ourselves with the notions of that which is "acceptable," "masculine," or even "typical" for a human being, whether they are gay or not?

Can feminine "straight" men be accepted? And if so, do mannerisms really have anything to do with whether or not you are worthy of (or should ever expect) acceptance within general society?

I attended mosque a many a day in St. Louis. I've read Francis Cress Welsing "Isis Papers." I've read Diop, Browder and Van Sertima too. However, I've never been able to rationalize the Mandingo stereotype and the conspiracy to feminize Black men.

In fact, I always wondered what power anybody could have over me to change my mannerisms any more than the music industry can encourage our Black men to be thugs...or that either is more acceptable. The choice is ours. We just need to make it...

Laura
November 14 2005, 1:48AM

Kenneth - "And, are we to oppress ourselves with the notions of that which is "acceptable," "masculine," or even "typical" for a human being, whether they are gay or not?"

yep.

they get to cower under our skirts while they curse at us from below.

these people act like psychotics who found a cult to channel their sociopathy.

nauseating.

oh, and SLAPPY or SHUGASMACKS or whatever you're calling yourself today, turn off that caps lock, sport. there is no need to get hysterical, it's just a thread about a TV show.

Kenneth Winfrey
November 14 2005, 3:04AM

Actually, I was wrong. These DL, closeted types are represented.

They are often portrayed as "Man Walking on Street #1," or some other non-descriptive role. He has no voice, no speaking part, and we don't know ANYTHING about him...

Laura
November 14 2005, 3:17AM

yeah though, too bad they can't seem to represent themselves without coming completely undone, poor babies.

there are also DL women - they are equally as whiny, paranoid, petrified and hellbent on dragging you down into that closet with them. they also expect us to do the heavy lifting when it comes to protection and enforcement of rights.

DLs are the handkerchief head negroes of the 21st century.

Andrew Atwood
November 14 2005, 11:58AM

Hello,
For those of you who support the show (Noah's Arc) I thank you from the bottom of my heart.I am the older brother of Jensen Atwood (Wade) and I am very proud of him as I am of the rest of the cast of Noah's Arc.The cast on this show are truely talented people.
For those who are haters just change the station.For those who enjoy the show please keep watching and supporting the show.

Q
November 14 2005, 1:02PM

I say this becuase it must be said:

What is so confounding to me is the perception that self identification is useless is changing the way in which society works [as a trained sociologist I believe it is necessary to consider the impact the individual has on society]! Oddly enough, the dictionary supports many of my arguments pertinent to the issue of manhood in the Black Gay Community.

Gay: is associated with the cultural aspects of homosexual life. A lifestyle if you will!

Bi/Homosexual: references an individual's sexual orientation/preference.

There are a lot of bi and homosexual guys who just don't indentify with Black Gay life. There is nothing wrong with this but it seems that many people who are "out" feel you need to participate in this culture in order to belong or advocate equality. So KENNETH if it really is about making our own choices then what is wrong with making the choice to remain masculine, discreet and not scream out to the world 'Imma gay man?' Moreover, why is there this lie that exist that there are no masculine black SGL men visible and therefore they're underrepresented. Just because we don't attend the balls, hit the clubs, write checks, throw shade, stab our supposed friends in the back and sleep around doesn't mean we aren't visible.

Laura, maybe instead of attacking just because you don't like what you read -- you can try understanding the argument/comment before you counter it because that whole "make your own show" shit of the bull is redundant and retarded. Nevertheless, I might just do that.

Also, why does it seem that the self identified fags, femmes, etc. [including Laura] go on the attack with issues like the DL, masculinity and manhood when I have yet to see any self indentified masculine, DL dude antagonize femininity -- we ain't log on and write that fags are non-existent, we didn't say Patrik had it wrong we just didn't like the omission of masculine men. In all honesty if you've seen his movie "Punks" you know he's capable of more realism! Which is by the way how art reflects life....this ain't the scifi channel it's the damn gay network and you must represent the multifaceted community that exist in real life or risk being one-dimensional.

Q
November 14 2005, 1:07PM

Keith, why do I see your next book all throughout this here blog?

Kenneth Winfrey
November 14 2005, 2:10PM

If you read my posts, you'll see that I have always been one to know and defend the true meaning of the word "homosexual" when no one else did. On these definitions we agree. I would actually even say that any homosexual experience makes any of us a homosexual (adjective) by that much. I also agree that not everyone needs to be "out" within the context of the challenges in their lives, and am asking the same freedom for Polk to be absolved of the need to take EVERY available opportunity to influence politics.

Nevertheless, I feel that it begs the question of representation when visibility is required by THAT definition. A man who is not out has a life of subterfuge or "discretion" is really not an interesting story line at all to me ANYWAY. Regardless of that fact, Polk is still under no obligation to produce a documentary, or to meet the expectations of others because art is very personal. Therefore, if the story were about DL or closeted men, I would not feel inclined to demand that I be represented as an "out" man. Even though I can empathize with the J. L. Kings and Jonathan Plummers of the world, we can't accurately depict or assess anything that is "secret" by nature. (Which is why citing the DL in HIV epidemiology is just as flawed...)

Your comment "....because we don't attend the balls, hit the clubs, write checks, throw shade, stab our supposed friends in the back and sleep around doesn't mean we aren't visible." Shows that WHATEVER education you have has miserably failed you; that the faculty and staff from your sociology department should be shamed from leaving even their homes, let alone delivering another single lecture and; that the institution through which you matriculated should be PERMANENTLY stripped of its accreditation! Your extra-ordinary myopia is nothing less than the WORST shame of all social scientists and your braggadocio is undeniably contradicted by the fallacy in your statement. Your juvenile insults preclude any perception of you as an academic, but rather indicate one who lacks the fundamental maturity to engage this debate without resorting to the very stereotyping and prejudice of which you cry foul.

1. People who live in secret shouldn't ever expect to be well-represented. You can help, but you can't fight you're best fight if you're spending too much energy hiding.
2. These archaic notions of masculinity and femininity are at the root of the oppression of us all. Give them up because each of us should be free to be whoever we are.
3. No one has the right to demand "realism" (of which you obviously have no real concept) from an artist whether you believe he is "capable" of it or not, because the artist owns his work and has no obligation to anyone but HIMSELF in the act of creation.
4. No one has denied you the freedom to be an artist and create ya' own damn show about people who live in fear...

Moreover, as you CLAIM to be a trained sociologist, I AM a trained professional artist, and won't have anyone putting the restrictions of their perception on the art I create (especially if/when I have not asked for your help to finance it!) Furthermore, since we've resorted to the classless custom of presenting vitaes in feeble attempts to justify the opinions (to which the ultimate creator has already given us the unrestricted right) I also have a Psychobiology degree, have been out since I was 14, and have always been a prolific enthusiast of "gay" culture and human sexuality...but my opinion is still "just" mine regardless of all that.

Having stated the above, don't you ever, ever, ever again fix your fingers to pound such ridiculous statements about your alleged transcript in the hopes that it will change my well-known heart, or suggest that all that being "out" is simply about whether or not one is masculine, discreet or attending the balls, hitting the clubs, writing checks, throwing shade, stabbing our supposed friends in the back or sleeping around, but, again, if you were "out," or got anything from your "training," you'd know better than that. Oh, but my, your slip is showing big time! HA HA At best, this is all an informal practicum from which you might take your own advice to Keith and write a little essay of your own.

Finally, let me add that I DO SINCERELY believe that not being out IS actually OFTEN not only more about lacking the bravery to demand from the world the respect we all deserve when we present those with which we have chosen to spend our lives, but also when we present ourselves as the unique creatures that we are (and should be proud to be)! So, that is why I can also give myself permission to now ignore you, and hope that everyone else does as well, because you're probably misleading someone into believing that hiding who you are is ever really somehow ideal.

Trained sociologist my FOOT! LOL ROFLMAO.

Laura
November 14 2005, 3:41PM

Hey Q

"Also, why does it seem that the self identified fags, femmes, etc. [including Laura] go on the attack with issues like the DL, masculinity and manhood when I have yet to see any self indentified masculine, DL dude antagonize femininity"

dontcha get it?

there is more to life than two simpleminded roles of "masculinity" and "femininity". go reread that ALL CAPS temper tantrum by that anonymous, you'll find the typical gender-based namecalling, and plenty other regurgitated, misogyinist, male-supremecist crud. you could set your watch by it, it's so predictable.

it's not our fault other people are too lazy to think outside their little absolutes.

DL dudes (or women) do not identify at all, they just come out of the woodwork when others don't portray them the way they want.

so let them go portray themselves, then perhaps we can all learn something. of course that means they can no longer be DL. tsk tsk now ain't that too bad.

"this ain't the scifi channel it's the damn gay network and you must represent the multifaceted community that exist in real life or risk being one-dimensional."

so let the big bad scary DLs and go write their own program and quit waiting for someone else to do it. no one is stopping them except their own cowardice. they can even use so-called all "masculine" characters, there's policemen, firemen, cowboys, indian chiefs, leather daddies...oh, wait....

lol

Laura
November 14 2005, 4:33PM

Kenneth said, "If you read my posts, you'll see that I have always been one to know and defend the true meaning of the word "homosexual" when no one else did. On these definitions we agree. I would actually even say that any homosexual experience makes any of us a homosexual (adjective) by that much."

frankly, i feel the root cause of these angry and dissatisfied people ultimately does lie with white racist gays and their lock on the politics of equality. i share that anger and dissatisfaction.

i stopped calling myself "gay" or "lesbian" for similar reasons as the SGL crowd (for one, "lesbian" is not accurate for me) within a couple years after "coming out" back in the stone ages, perferring to say yes it's true, i have girlfriends and boyfriends -- put your own goddamn label to it, i could really give a crap anymore.

i can definitely see where people say "gay" = "white" (i would say "white/middle class aspiring"). these are not new critiques. the trick is to not fall into the trap of re-identifying with those you define yourself against. in this i see near total failure amongst SGLs and DLs who afaict bank on white racist gays and heterosexist society for their very identity. fine for them, just don't have a hernia when i don't join you.

all of this boils down to control as does any kind of absolutism. this absurd alphabet soup and who uses what letter combinations to describe themselves is about control. lesbian body-parts fundamentalists who won't date so-called "bi's" or trans women on principle, control. butch/femmes who hate the andros and the trans, control. DLs intimidated and angered by people who refer to themselves "fags" or who self-identify as anything at all...control. and as any out person knows, whether they are out to one other person or have broadcast it on the 6:00 news, the closet is ALL about control. that is why DLs and their white counterparts the ex-gay movement, and paid-off televangelists and Taliban mullahs are so insistent on keeping it intact.

the political question still boils down to one simple concept: equality. so what if someone is MSM or runs around calling themselves DL...they are entitled to the same rights as anyone else. same for trans, intersex, people who cross dress, etc. major caveat: people who are BY DEFINITION invisible cannot represent themselves. that is a no-brainer. but certain of the above do not believe in equality themselves, and are INCENSED that others do.

they can accept the status quo, remain hidden and at high risk for misrepresentation...or they can represent themselves. a political state with true equality does not force its citezens into such false dilemmas.

but sorry, all the temper tantrums on earth and blaming "self-identified fags" and nelly queens and me lol for their troubles isn't going to change that one iota.

call yourself anything...but DO something.

JR
November 14 2005, 5:24PM

Kenneth winfrey,,your long essay of criticizing and insults made me laugh.As you criticize whoever it was and claim they did this and did that you are doing it yourself.2.I am a openly gay male, however you simply do not make any sense whatsoever criticizing someone who chooses to keep there sexuality to themselves. YOUR STATEMENTS WHEN IT COMES TO DL MEN OR BEING OPEN OR SO CALLED CLOSETED OR HIDING ARE FILLED WITH MANY MANY HOLES,you are exactly what steve was saying about openly gay men having a level of misery and loneliness they are unaware of ,wanting every man who likes men to come open like them as if that is the key to every person who is gay or bi pride or security,You seriously need to define the word pride and security and realize that the meanings of the these labels come with inside of yourself and alongs you are aware of what you are,what explanation do you owe anyone? HOWEVER! i dont agree with anyone who is married and cheating period,whether it be dl men married and have sexual intercourse with his bestfriend or boy he play ball with or a female married and sleeping with her best female friend or straight couples cheating.However! YOU CANNOT DEBATE THE FACT THAT PRIDE IS WITHIN YOURSELF.WHAT IS YOUR REASON OF WANTING THESE MEN TO COME OUT AND BE OPEN LIKE YOU?? HOW DOES IT HARM YOU? IF THEY DONT AND WHY DOES IT HARM YOU,WHY YOU MAKE ASSUMPTIONS AND STATEMENTS THAT ARE REACHING TOO FAR TO BELIEVE OR MAKE OTHERS BELIEVE THERES A BIG PROBLEM WITH KEEPING YOUR BUSINESS TO YOURSELF.DO YOU EVEN REALIZE THAT MANY THESE TRUE DL BROTHERS/THUGS ARE NOT EVEN GIVING HIDING,OR STRUGGLING WITH HIDING,,OR KEEPING A SECRET A THOUGHT,OR ALL THIS OTHER MUMBO JUMBO YOU CAME UP WITH ANY THOUGHT?? WHY? BECAUSE THEY ARE CONTENT WITH THEMSELVES AND WHO THEY ARE,OF COURSE SOME ARE IN DENIAL WHAT THEY ARE HOWEVER HOMOSEXUAL,BISEXUAL,HETEROSEXUAL ARE ALL LABELS!!!!!,SOCIETY ESPECIALLY GAYS KILL ME WITH THE BATTLE OF THESE SENSELESS LABELS TO THE POINT THEY FORGET WHAT THE TRUE MEANING IS.

THE MERE FACT IS,,,JUST AS MUCH AS YOU CRITICIZE DL,THEY CAN CRITICIZE YOU BEING OPENLY GAY,BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS BEING OPEN WITH YOUR SEXUALITY IN A WORLD WERE IT IS LOOKED DOWN UPON CAN CAUSE YOU SERIOUS TROUBLE AND IN MANY CASES YOUR LIFE,YOU DO NOT KNOW THE STATE OF MIND OF INDIVIDUALS IN THIS WORLD AND SIMPLY HAVING THIS SO CALLED PRIDE AND FEELING THE NEED TO TELL WHOEVER ASK YOUR GAY CAN CAUSE YOU TO BECOME BASHED,BLACK BALLED,AND EVEN MURDERED!.

THE FUNNY PART IS HOW OPENLY GAYS SAY IF SOMEONE ASK I WOULD TELL,BECAUSE I AM NOT GONNA DENY MYSELF TO ANYONE,OR HIDE ANYTHING,

FIRST OFF,,IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHO YOU ARE TO YOURSELF, THEN WHEN DID TELLING SOMEONE ELSE A LIE ABOUT YOURSELF CAUSE YOU TO DENY WHAT YOU ARE TO YOURSELF,AND YOU ALREADY HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED WHAT YOU ARE TO YOURSELF! ALSO THIS""HIDING THING"" SOME THINGS ARE SIMPLY MEANT TO KEEP TO YOURSELF WITH THAT BEING SAID,NO ONE CAN TELL ANYONE WHATS RIGHT OR WRONG TO KEEP TO THEMSELVES SO LETS NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT COMING OFF THE MOUTHS SAYING""((TRUE BUT KEEPING YOUR SEXUALITY TO YOURSELF ISNT RIGHT OR SERVES NO PURPOSE))

NOW IF YOUR SO PROUD OF YOUR SEXUALITY AND FEEL THE WORLD OR EVERYONE MUST KNOW ESPECIALLY WHEN ASKED.

IF I ASKED YOU HOW MANY TIMES DID IT TAKE YOU TO WIPE YOUR REAR BEFORE THERE WAS NO FECES ON THE TOILET PAPER LAST TIME YOU TOOK A NUMBER 2, WOULD YOU HAVE ENOUGH PRIDE TO TELL ME?? OR WOULD YOU SIMPLY NOT BECAUSE THATS YOUR PRIVATE BUSINESS,MUCH LIKE A GUY AND GIRL WHO LIKES THE SAME SEX?

PEOPLE MUST THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS,AND STOP LETTING THERE WANTINGS OF OTHERS TO BE LIKE THEM GET IN THE WAY OF SHIT

MISERY LOVES COMPANY AND IT SEEMS THESE OPENLY GAY MENS OPINIONS ON WHY MEN OR WOMEN SHOULD TELL EVERYONE THERE GAY OR BI WITHOUT REALIZING ""BEING YOURSELF COMES WITHIN YOURSELF"JUST SHOW ME THERES A BIG FAT MISERY AND INSECURE AND LONELY DEFINITION MELTED ALL IN THERE IMMUNE SYSTEM,,
MISERY LOVES COMPANY!!!!!!!

AND ALONGS AND PEOPLE LIKE KENNETH AND MANY OPENLY GAYS HAVE THOSE ONE-SIDED OPINIONS AND THOUGHTS AND EXAGGERATIONS,FABRICATIONS AND MAKING THINGS SEEM MORE SERIOUS THEN WHAT IT REALLY IS,,YOUR DREAMS OF GAYS BEING AS EQUAL AS STRAIGHTS OR RESPECTED WILL NEVER EVER BE REACHED.

Laura
November 14 2005, 5:36PM

"YOU CANNOT DEBATE THE FACT THAT PRIDE IS WITHIN YOURSELF."

you've taken on 3 different personalities in one thread alone.

some "pride", lol. who ya foolin'?

JR
November 14 2005, 5:39PM

Now lets talk about this true moeaning of homosexuality a little

LETS MAKE THIS SHORT!

HOMOSEXUAL,,BISEXUAL,,,HETEROSEXUAL

THEY ARE ALL LABELS!!!!!!!A WISE MAN TOLD ME ONE OF THE WORSE THINGS MAN COULD EVER DO WAS CREATE LABELS!! LAURA AND KENNETH ARE SO STUCK ON DEFENDING THE LABELS AND THIS SO CALLED TRUE MEANING,,BISEXUAL HAS A TRUE MEANING IF HOMOSEXUALITY DOES

INSTEAD OF DEFENDING THIS LABEL DEFEND THE MEANING,,AND THE MEANING OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS MEN WHO ENGAGE IN THE SAME SEX,,THE MEANING OF BISEXUALITY IS MEN WHO ENGAGE WITH BOTH SEXES OR HAS A SEXUAL LIKING OF BOTH SEXES,

ITS FUNNY BECAUSE THIS ONE GAY GUY TOLD ME BISEXUALITY IS GAY I SAID NO BISEXUALITY IS BISEXUALITY,YOU JUST WANT BISEXUALITY TO BE GAY LIKE YOU,HIS RESPONSE WAS? BUT WE BOTH SLEEP WITH MEN THATS THE SAME THING,I RESPONDED WITH AND HE SLEEPS WITH WOMEN! YOU DONT THATS THE DIFFERENCE,THEREFORE THATS WHY I BELIEVE THE ACTION OF SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH BOTH SEXES IS LABELED BISEXUAL.I BASICALLY HAD HIM ON HUSH MODE LOL

JR
November 14 2005, 5:44PM

LAURA,,FIRST OFF THIS IS MY TIME RUNNING ACROSS THIS SITE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK, LETS LAY OFF THE IGNORANCE,,BECAUSE I COULD EASILY BECOME IGNORANT AND SAY YOU CALL YOURSELF LAURA YET YOU PUT TO MUCH LIFE INTO SOMETHING THAT EVOLVES AROUND HOMOSEXUAL MEN WHICH MAKES ME THING YOUR REAL NAME ISNT LAURA ITS STEVEN BASICALLY SAYING YOUR SOME TRANSEXUAL.BUT I WONT BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW YOU

INSTEAD OF YAPPING OFF THE LIPS TAKING OTHERS WAY OFF THE SUBJECT AND RESPONDING WITH YOUR CHILD MENTALITY LIKE INSULTS AND LABELS AND ASSUMPTIONS(WHICH ARE LOW FORMS OF KNOWLEDGE) QUOTE ANYTHING SAID AND CORRECT IT AND WHEN YOU DO,PLEASE BACK YOUR ARGUMENT WITH FACTS,LINKS,REFERENCES WHEN YOU CAN DO THAT,THEN YOU WILL BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY

Laura
November 14 2005, 5:47PM

"LETS MAKE THIS SHORT!"

let's make it shorter: call yourself anything but represent your own self, quit sitting around on your lazy ass waiting on others to do your political work for you.

Laura
November 14 2005, 5:49PM

"FIRST OFF THIS IS MY TIME RUNNING ACROSS THIS SITE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK,"

lol quit your lyin'. you can't even be bothered to change your writing style even aw you parrot the same old opinions day after day.

amateur.

Laura
November 14 2005, 5:53PM

"THEN YOU WILL BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY"

i don't need screeching multiple-personality internet crazies to take me seriously.

think whatever you want, doesn't matter, i'm not the one around here with something to prove.

JR
November 14 2005, 6:44PM

LMAO,,,THIS CHICK THINKS I AM POSTING UNDER DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES,,,IS THAT PART OF YOUR DENIAL OF WHATS BEEN SAID AS BEING THE TRUTH? IS THAT ALL YOU GOT AN ASSUMPTION THAT I AM TYPING UNDER MORE THAN JUST ONE SCREENAME.LITTLE GIRL I DONT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR CHILDISH GAMES AND MAKE BELIEVE STORIES OR MIND GAMES.AS I SAID BEFORE WHEN YOU CAN QUOTE ANYTHING SAID THAT YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH AND CORRECT IT WITH LINKS,FACTS,REFERENCES,YOU THEN WILL BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY UNTIL THEN YOU WILL REMAIN LOST

JR
November 14 2005, 6:46PM

LMFAO,,,SHE CALLED ME SAYING PRIDE AND SECURITY ARE WITHIN YOURSELF AN ""OPINION"" THAT IS A FACT LITTLE GIRL,YOU JUST WANT TO THINK ITS AN OPINION BECAUSE YOU CANNOT ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE AFRAID OF OR KNOW TO BE THE TRUTH

JR
November 14 2005, 6:46PM

LMFAO,,,SHE CALLED ME SAYING PRIDE AND SECURITY ARE WITHIN YOURSELF AN ""OPINION"" THAT IS A FACT LITTLE GIRL,YOU JUST WANT TO THINK ITS AN OPINION BECAUSE YOU CANNOT ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE AFRAID OF OR KNOW TO BE THE TRUTH

Laura
November 14 2005, 7:27PM

quit yelling, steve.

steve
November 14 2005, 11:20PM

LMFAO now i know i then seen some shit now lol.Laura i can see how you would think me and JR are the same just by looking at how similar we type .But trust me we are not the same.LOL you all are wild!

Q
November 14 2005, 11:23PM

More confounded! Did anyone pick up the damn dictionary or visit Http://www.reference.com ? or Did I strike a nerve?

KENNETH, I simply asked a question regarding your comments; maybe that was too personal, I apologize if you felt it was an ATTACK. But, what is with the viciousness? It was reminiscent of the very same vitriol that I associate with "fags" and I'm kinda disappointed that you didn't really read what I wrote at all. There is no fallacy in my statements, absolutely none...it is all very accurate infact! I did not cite my vitae in any arguments or opinions I made; I did not make any arguments based on sociological research that I or anyone else has done; I didn't even further discuss my view that it is necessary to consider the impact the individual as on society which is by the way where I did cite my training as a sociologist.

Since you seem to be the stupid one let me clear up somethings for you:

The minute Patrik sold the televison rights to MTV Networks he lost ownership of his "art" and it became the Logo Networks project to do with as they please [another debate]; however, as a director/writer on the series he has significant input into the character development and influences HOW the story is told.

Since when does the down low equate to secrecy? It obviously was a misappropriation that Mr. King attributed to the term because the only ones truly in the dark were the women who may have been dealing with men living double lives.

My "at the balls" comment was rhetorical, styreotypical and a matter of perspective. It does not reflect the education I received, my intellect or academic background. Maybe you felt insulted because I listed some of your favorite activities but I'm not sure how anyone could take offense in that comment, someone enlighten me. Moreover, I wasn't suggesting that being out is all about those things just that if one chooses not to do those things that doesn't render him invisible.

It bothers me that you'd say that I lack the maturity to engage this debate [I wasn't aware that I was debating anything] when all throughout your piece you personally attack me and attempt character assasination! If you couldn't counter my comments or answer my questions [even the rhetorical ones] then why even waste time responding to my post? [please don't answer for I fear another dissertation that says absolutely nothing]

Laura
November 15 2005, 1:36AM

"LOL you all are wild!"

lol you are totally unhinged, sport.

Laura
November 15 2005, 1:49AM

Q the Cleo Manago evangelist said, "Since when does the down low equate to secrecy?"

anybody who's been with some DL ostrich is aware of the open secret they expect YOU to keep, so THEY don't have to give up their hangups and other nasty habits.

"why can't you wear more skirts?"

"we're going to my brother's, you put on this color lipstick [i.e. your preferred color isn't "femme" enough -- somebody might figure out the blindingly obvious, oh the horror lol]."

"I live a PRIVATE life!!" answer: "I live an OPEN life. Deal with it or get another girlfriend, dear."

secrecy, fear, lies, closets, control. these DL heffas want the rest of us to be controlled by "society" in the exact same way they are, or else they will throw a tantrum or something. fuck that, and fuck them.

psychos.

Laura
November 15 2005, 1:56AM

Q said, "It was reminiscent of the very same vitriol that I associate with "fags""

lol! ain't that a shame.

why do you think it matters what you personally think about "fags" or any other non-traditionals who don't depend on bigots to tell them who they are.

writeoff.

JR
November 15 2005, 6:04PM

LAURA STILL AT IT,,NOT MAKING ABSOLUTELY ANY SENSE WITH ANYTHING HER TRANSEXUAL ASS IS SAYING LORDY LORDY,Q,YOU MAKE ALOT OF SENSE BRUH,KENNETH GOT ANGRY AND INSULTED YOU BECAUSE LIKE MANY OTHER OPENLY GAY MEN THEY BECOME ANGRY WHEN THEY ARE UNABLE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH OR WHAT THEY FEAR IS THE TRUTH,THEY DONT LIKE THE FACT YOU PUT THE CRAP THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS IN JEOPARDY BY SOMETHING THAT IS TRUE,,IN THE END

PRIDE IS WITHIN YOURSELF AND SECURITY.NEVER EVER COME OUT AND TELL EVERYONE YOUR SEXUALITY TO PLEASE THESE MISERABLE GAY MEN AND TRANSEXUAL MEN LIKE LAURA AND THERE MISERY.ALONGS YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU ARE TO YOURSELF THATS WHAT COUNT.THE HELL WITH TELLING ANYONE ELSE IF YOU DONT WANT TOO

Laura
November 16 2005, 4:34PM

"LAURA STILL AT IT,,NOT MAKING ABSOLUTELY ANY SENSE WITH ANYTHING"

christ, you are an illiterte coward.