His Eye Is On The Sparrow

By Keith Boykin, in spirituality
Monday, August 1 2005, 10:27AM

Rev. ForbesI arrived at church just as a big demonstration was taking place across the street in the park. Police officers blocked parts of the street with orange pylons and directed cars through the heavy traffic. The cab driver dropped me off at the front door, where a young white man was holding a blue program book emblazoned with the words "REVIVAL! Victory Over Spiritual Violence Through Grace." I knew I had arrived at the right place.

The young man directed me to the back of the huge cathedral, and I began my five-minute walk to the other side. Along the way, I ran into Donald Agarrat, my web designer, who I had not seen in months. We walked together and stepped inside the rear entrance of the church, where we were directed downstairs to one of the many basilicas in the sprawling complex. Riverside Church, located at the top of a tall hill in Harlem, is one of the largest churches in New York. It's the place where Dr. King spoke out against the Vietnam War on April 4, 1967, a year to the day before he was assassinated. And it is the church where Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, Patti Labelle, Cissy Houston and dozens of other stars came to pay their last respects to Luther Vandross just last month for his funeral.

It was fitting that Luther's family chose Riverside for his final service. "The Church commits itself to welcoming all persons, celebrating the diversity found in a congregation broadly inclusive of persons from different backgrounds of race, economic class, religion, culture, ethnicity, gender, age and sexual orientation." That's according to the church's own website. How many other non-gay churches do we know would specifically welcome lesbian and gay members?

Built in the 1920s and underwritten with $26 million from John D. Rockefeller Jr., the church first opened in 1930. Since that time it has been a beacon of light shining high on a hill with a steeple visible from as far away as New Jersey.

I could feel the love the moment I walked in the door. Kevin McGruder, Warren Sims, Colin Robinson and others stood at the entrance and greeted us as we walked into the worship hall. Rev. James Forbes, the senior minister of the church, stood nearby. I first met Rev. Forbes years ago when he and I were on Tavis Smiley's show on BET one night debating Tavis's own minister, Bishop Noel Jones of Los Angeles. During the show, I pointed out that Jesus never mentions homosexuality in the Bible, and Bishop Jones (incredibly) disputed that indisputable claim.

I was glad to see that some black ministers like Rev. Forbes were willing to stand up for black gays and lesbians. Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields, a candidate for mayor, spoke about her own experience with prejudice as a young black girl. She was followed by Dr. Sylvia Rhue, the religious affairs coordinator for the National Black Justice Coalition. Sylvia reminded the audience that there are two types of people in the church: the saints and the aints. Not everybody in church is a saint, she said.

Arun Gandhi, the grandson of legendary Indian spiritual leader Mohandas Gandhi, spoke next. Gandhi said he hesitated to come to the event because his wife had been ill. But when he asked his wife, she insisted that he go and spread his message, he said. Gandhi, dressed in a suit with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, told several stories, including one in which a frustrated Christian minister couldn't explain why people weren't responding to his sermons. Gandhi told the man to stop talking about Christianity and start living it.

He also told a story of a powerful king looking for answers to the world. The king goes to a wise man who simply gives him a grain of wheat. The king places the grain in a special box at home and opens it up from time to time to show visitors. But after a year or so he realizes the grain of wheat has not changed anything. One day someone finally gives him the answer. If he had planted that grain of wheat in the soil, it would have grown and helped to create many more grains of wheat. But since he left it in a box, it could do nothing but be seen. Gandhi used this story to explain that those of us who have found peace must not close it up in our own boxes but must instead plant the seeds in others so that they can grow and spread.

Following Gandhi, Krishna Stone, a mother of a 10-year-old girl, spoke to the assembly. Dressed in what appeared to be a Japanese kimono, this fair-skinned black woman told us that our bodies are sacred places not to be hidden but to be enjoyed. She said she liked to think of her own body as an amusement park, a comment which drew laughter and support. Quoting from Dr. Rhue, Stone said that an orgasm is like a kiss from God.

With all the crazy homophobic preaching going on these days, it was refreshing to be in a black worship hall that was not filled with fear of human sexuality. In a service punctuated by Da'rrell Belton's musical selections of "Amazing Grace" and "His Eye Is On The Sparrow," it was the video memorial tribute that left me in tears. As Kenyon Farrow spoke at the microphone, still images of black gays and lesbians who had been victims of violence were projected on the screen behind him.

Arthur Warren
Wanda Alston
Jamal James
Dwan Prince
Sakia Gunn
Rashawn Brazell

The pictures forced me to confront a reality I had tried not to acknowledge. I knew too many of these people. I remembered attending the vigil for Arthur Warren, the young black gay man from West Virginia, who was murdered back in 2000. I remembered the moment I heard the news about my friend Wanda Alston. I was at a book signing at a friend's house in St. Louis when the call came through on my cell phone. Wanda had been murdered in her own home. And of course I remembered Sakia Gunn. I sat for hours in Sakia's living room as her heartbroken mother and grandmother recounted the whole sad story.

I had been too close to these murders to make any sense of them. All I could do was cry. As Da'rrell sang "Why should I be discouraged?" I knew that it was time for me to leave, and I knew I had a grain of wheat to plant in the soil. Whenever Willie Wilson or Grace Harley or Noel Jones or any other black minister condemns homosexuality, I could no longer allow them to escape the consequences of their rhetoric.

So this message is for them. Don't justify your bigotry with the Bible. Don't expect me to give you my tithes and offerings. Don't blame me for airing the family's "dirty laundry" when you started the conflict in the first place. Don't tell me to wait in the closet until you're ready to let me be seen. I will not be tolerant of intolerance.

Religion should be used as a tool for love, not as a weapon of hate.

Some black clergy support gay rights
Gay-friendly black churches in Washington, DC

Comments (34) reveal

Comments conceal

DB
August 1 2005, 12:06PM

Keith:

What a powerful message! It's always in those still moments when we are allowed to reflect on times past that we understand and remember the things for which we have to be thankful. We also remember and reflect upon the impact that we have had on others. All of the aforementioned persons were blessed by the seed you planted (whether it was a word during the family’s time of bereavement, sharing a message on your site, or being a lifelong friend). I can't say enough how much I personally appreciate the work you do. I am a beneficiary of the seed you plant daily through your site, the books, speeches, etc. I'm sure that those who have gone on are smiling down on you now as many of us smile daily!

Also, I want to concur on your assessment of the Riverside Church. The church is a wonderful example of what church should be. In May of this year, my church choir came from Memphis to share our ministry through song. We were late for the service because another church, that I won't name, conveniently forgot that we were supposed to minister that morning. Can you believe they thought we brought over 100 singers that far just to "show up" at someone's church and expect to sing? Anyhow, I digress. But we finally made it to Riverside and were accepted with open arms. We even stayed afterwards because the audience wanted more. Most churches would scold us and cut off all ties for future relations. Not Riverside. Not only did they accept our apology for the situation, but about 50 or so members showed up at our concert that evening at Convent Baptist Church. That was a powerful statement from the church. Every time I go back to NYC, I know where I want to worship!

While that story has little to do with Keith's message, it tells you the type of people you encounter in that church. They truly exemplified how we as Christians should be. Oh yeah, they bought over 100 of our CDs as well :) That doesn’t sound like a church that’s mad at us. Hopefully we can get back there and share more. It was an AWESOME experience.

It is my hope that we all can find a place like Riverside to worship in our communities and share the information with others. Keith put it best when he stated: "Religion should be used as a tool for love, not as a weapon of hate." That's what keeps so many of us out of the church, right? Knowledge is power!

Danny
August 1 2005, 2:05PM

Preach pastor Preach!!!!!!

That was wonderful. Just reading it brought me to tears.

escritor
August 1 2005, 2:09PM


Keith,

I applaud this wonderful message. Thanks for
sharing your experience at Riverside Church.

John
August 1 2005, 2:16PM

Thank you Keith. You are truly one of God's Soldiers.

Kevin C
August 1 2005, 2:20PM

Keith,

This piece should be printed in every newspaper and magazine around.

I'm so touched by it.

Kevin C
ATL

Concerned
August 1 2005, 2:43PM

So what if these opening gay churches tell you that the Bible instructs us that the only excuse for divorce is adultery, and that divorcing someone because you don't like them anymore is not a reasonable excuse? Since this is CLEARLY in the Bible, and there is no contradiction on this issue, no play on words, would they also be hating divorced couples, or simply explaining to them what it says in the Bible????

Cody
August 1 2005, 3:18PM

Keith, my brother;

It’s funny that you would post this piece today. You see, I’m saved and am very much a Christian and believe in the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Just this morning I had a conversation with Rev. Holt of Memorial Baptist Church, also in Harlem, about how much of a shame it is that many in The Christian Church have led others to believe that they are not welcome into the Body of Christ.

Yesterday I had a particularly edifying experience in my church, as did most folk in the congregation. I said it’s too bad everyone is not welcomed in church to experience this. “These people are no less ‘sinners’ than anyone else,” I said.

Rev. Holt brought up how an enlightened church would preach ‘sin is sin.’

We thought about this, then agreed that there is something fundamentally wrong and unscriptural with telling the homosexual that the nature of his being is a ‘sin.’ Equating his being with the lying, cheating and stealing others do.

Rev Holt asked then what should the message of the church be. We agreed that it should be ‘affirming’ to one’s sexual orientation, not simply accepting it.

You’re right. Jesus never condemned any homosexual, even when challenged by religious folk on the Ethiopian Eunuch. He simply told folks “this man’s sexuality is not your business.”

I say all this to say, I truly believe it is time to introduce an affirming Gospel of Jesus Christ to the gay community. Doing so will go a long way toward healing some deeply painful wounds. That is the Good News that everyone has access to.

Bklynbro
August 2 2005, 12:12PM

Nice read, Keith.

kirby
August 2 2005, 10:56PM

Kevin I would like to say this is a nice story and it is always good to see another person veiw point on things.

John
August 3 2005, 10:02AM

Keith,

Perhaps you should add a "read more" tag at the bottom to show it is an extended entry. For some time, I've been reading your entries thinking "Man, Keith is kind of losing it. His posts trail off and don't make any sense."

Finally, I realized that I could read your extended entries by clicking the title. Now, I'm enjoying all the past posts! Good job.

andre
August 3 2005, 11:58AM

thank you! i'm so move by what you said! thanks i'm not alone!

NKJV
August 3 2005, 12:41PM

Leviticus 18

Laws of Sexual Morality

1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 According to the doings of the land of Egypt, where you dwelt, you shall not do; and according to the doings of the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you, you shall not do; nor shall you walk in their ordinances. 4 You shall observe My judgments and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the LORD your God. 5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.
6 ‘None of you shall approach anyone who is near of kin to him, to uncover his nakedness: I am the LORD. 7 The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. 9 The nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home or elsewhere, their nakedness you shall not uncover. 10 The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for theirs is your own nakedness. 11 The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, begotten by your father—she is your sister—you shall not uncover her nakedness. 12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is near of kin to your father. 13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is near of kin to your mother. 14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother. You shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. 15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law—she is your son’s wife—you shall not uncover her nakedness. 16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness. 17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness. They are near of kin to her. It is wickedness. 18 Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive.
19 ‘Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness as long as she is in her customary impurity. 20 Moreover you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor’s wife, to defile yourself with her. 21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. **22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.** 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 ‘Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God.’”

Mark
August 3 2005, 1:30PM

People whot site Leviticus should remember that Leviticus was NEVER intended to be or presented as the Word of God. Leviticus was written by the Hebrew leaders during the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. The rules therein were created as a way for the Jews to differentiate themselves from the Babylonians. Only in later centuries has common man come to believe/teach/mislead that Leviticus was part of the Word. It is not. They are man made rules for a distinct political purpose during a specific period of time.

Educate yourselves, people. God would expect as much from his faithful.

Bob Friesen
August 3 2005, 1:40PM

Keith: This column is positively electric. It resonated with me to the point that the hair on my arms absolutely stood on end. I consider myself fortunate in having found your website.

Jesus
August 3 2005, 1:58PM

Leviticus

Aiight, a good starting point.

Ya see those who quickly quote Leviticus when condemning homosexuals don’t understand very basic tenants set forth by Jesus Christ.

1. It ain’t about what you do, or don’t do.

There is not one thing a person can stop doing the will put them in right standing with the Lord. In all their ‘self’-righteousness in the eye’s of the Lord they are no different than if they slept with a man, a goat, an unclean woman, their neighbor’s wife, a Christmas tree or a hole in the ground.

The Pharisees were quick to quote the Old Testament too. And they hung Jesus. So, watch those who quote Leviticus.

2. God’s Grace is offered to everyone. Period.

Others may try and steal God’s grace away from those Christ died for. They don’t have a true understanding of Grace so they don’t want others to have it either.

Grace does not require you to do, or not to do anything.

Grace is unmerited favor.

There is not one person it is not offered to.

By using the bible to try and make you feel guilty or to shame you this Leviticus poster is meeting their own selfserving needs, and have absolutely nothing to do with the world of God.

Keith Boykin
August 3 2005, 2:43PM

First, eating pork (Lev. 11:7) or seafood (Lev. 11:9), planting mingled seeds (Lev. 19:19) or wearing mixed fabrics (Lev. 19:19) were also abominations in Leviticus, but how many black preachers condemn their members for eating pork chops or wearing polycotton blends?

Second, who cares what Leviticus says? Why should a single book written thousands of years ago be the guide for our behavior today? If you really think that God spoke only once to us (2000 years ago) and hasn't had anything else to say since then, you worship a different God than mine.

That's fine. You keep your old-fashioned, small-minded God of petty rules, and I'll continue to worship an inclusive God of unconditional love. I won't try to convert you as long as you don't come here and try to convert me.

Cody
August 3 2005, 3:18PM

I'm sorry Keith,

But wearing polyester should be considered a sin in any dispensation.

It's just wrong.

Natural fabrics are the only way to go.

fratman1906
August 3 2005, 5:50PM

Keith, Thanks for a powerful and well written entry regarding the Riverside Church and its openness to all of God's people. Yes, there are those who wrote the words of Leviticus in order to separate and denigrate those of us who are too created in the image of God. Damnant quod non intelligunt (They condemn that they do not understand). Nevertheless, the true good news of the New Testament is that Jesus died for us all and through his suffering, death and resurrection all of us are eligible for God's Grace. I have admired the good works of my fellow North Carolinian, Rev. Dr. James A. Forbes, Jr., and had the opportunity to hear him preach during the city wide Interracial service at First Presbyterian Church of Durham recently. He is indeed a powerful, spiritual preacher. Keep us informed as you always do. (I also agree with John about the "read more" tag). Shem hotep!

FRE
August 3 2005, 9:12PM

Keith,

Here is another OT obligation that most pious fulminating fundamentalists overlook.

If your married brother dies childless, you are required to impregnate his widow and raise the children in his name. You would be required to do that even if you are already married. This law is mentioned first in Genesis and referenced several places on the OT.

Jeff
August 4 2005, 12:19AM

The worst of these are the Pentecostals. They swear that they are the only ones that hear from God cause they speak in tongues and do a holy dance.

Charles
August 4 2005, 3:21PM

I have long since walked away from the church...I know the "Bible" as a wonderful and uplifting book of which I have read 5 or more times and I continually leaf through it in my daily life...I no longer have the need to hear the words that I can read and decipher for myself by a man or woman of the church who is as "flawed" as I...I wish more people especially blacks (gay and straight) would come to this understanding and walk away from these churches, ministers and congregations that are filled with much self-loathing and use the Bible to hold themselves up while condemning the next group...the church in the Black community has become something of a fashion show, loud speaking ministers, megachurches, colorful gospel choirs and other distracting factors...when all you need to do is carry the words of God and Jesus in your head and heart as you move through the world letting it assist you with your actions and reactions...do not worry about telling someone else what they have done wrong if you believe in your faith, it will all be measured in time so there is no need for all of this...however blacks tend to have to tell someone else what they are doing wrong as a matter of keeping them down...many black churches (not all of them) in many ways has replaced the Jim Crow Laws and other tools of racial oppression...in addition we find it harder to rebel against this oppression because it is being reaped upon us by another black and sometimes we feel that we should take it, something we would never do if they were white...

Eva Young
August 5 2005, 7:31AM

That's why they call them the "Leviticus Crowd"....

For the person who quoted leviticus, please note that Leviticus talks about men, and says not a word about Lesbians.

Eva Young
August 5 2005, 7:38AM

Aw, Deuteronomy Chapter 22:

1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother. 2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again. 3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself. 4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again. 5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. 6 If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young: 7 But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days. 8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence. 9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled. 10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together. 11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. 12 Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself. 13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, 14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: 15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: 16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; 17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; 19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. 20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. 22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. 23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. 30 A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.

EY: Yup this one says, if a man rapes a woman who is a virgin, the man gives the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she's his wife.

Deuteronomy also says that if a man doesn't like his wife, and he can prove she was not a virgin at marriage, the wife gets stoned to death.

Ines
August 5 2005, 8:56AM

Good job. Just one small correction. You say there was a demonstration but actually it was not a demonstration. It was a celebration of Luther Vandross's music going on next to Riverside Church.

Confused
August 5 2005, 4:31PM

KEITH,

This is my problem with the articles on the site and many of the comments that I've read from previous statements. Ok, for the same of argument, let's say that God is inclusive and that homosexuality is not a sin. So, biblically, should not it then be held with the same regard and standards to which many heterosexual people hold themselves. Since the Bible instructs people to wait on godly mates and not to fornicated, both in the Old and New Testatments, should not homosexuals stop being whores, stop hooking up with people from clubs and the internet, stop having sex with every person they meet. Shouldn't homosexuals feel comfortable enough to pray to God every night that He bless the sanctity of the union? Should not they hold themselves to the same standards as "we will not have sex until our union is finalized in some way"? And people, please don't excuse behavior by stating that heterosexuals fornicate and have pre-marital sex--it's still wrong. If you want the church to accept unions as holy, not just the government, then start acting like the union and your bodies are holy. Because, no matter the translation OR the cultural influence, GOD NEVER permits you to be a whore.

Keith Boykin
August 5 2005, 4:33PM

Dear Confused,

Now I see why you picked that name.

Confused
August 5 2005, 4:55PM

KEITH,

You still have not answered the question. If God accepts homosexuality, then is fornication wrong? Is sleeping with someone with whom you have established no commitment wrong? Jesus, as inclusive as you say that he is, ALWAYS told people to go and sin no more. Even after he corrected the disciples and told them to let him who has no sin cast the first stone, he told the adulturess to go and SIN NO MORE. So, if homosexuality is not a sin, what actions involved in homosexuality would be classified as SIN. What actions would we need to tell God "sorry" for? Like it or not, the whole idea of Christianity is God loving you inspite of the sins that we do...Jesus dying for our sins. He says that if we repent, he is faithful and just to forgive us. So, if my homosexuality is not the sin, would not random sex acts be sin?? Would not lack of discretion be sin? Would not sleeping with someone who you just met be sin? Would not judging someone, calling them names be sin? (judge yet not, lest yet be judged. for the same measure with which ye judge, ye shall also be judged). Keith, I understand that you say God loves homosexuals...ok, but God promotes PURITY throughout the Bible. So, what is you advice for homosexuals who want to remain PURE? In terms of relationship, dating, what would a good Christian homosexual do? Christianity is more than being loving and nice and kind...it's a change of your lifestyle, so the Christ lives in us.

Jeff
August 5 2005, 8:04PM

Well, confused, Keith may not answer this (and I understand why) but all I can say to you is that we must be careful what we call pure and holy. Back in the day, the same white people who taught us chrisitanity thought we were impure. When interracial dating happened, that was considered impure by some christians.

Confused
August 5 2005, 9:18PM

All I'm saying is I wonder if homosexuals can practice and advocate abstinence the same way that some heterosexuals do. If God accepts us, then I assume that he wants us to choose partners wisely and not copulate with every good looking man who takes us out to dinner. What are the Christian stands to which we should hold ourselves?? Will there ever be a day when parents tell their young gay children not to have sex before marriage?

Thought
August 6 2005, 12:53AM

Let's be somewhat thankful to these ministers who so boldly and unashamedly let us know what they think of us. They are honest. Joel Osteen, who has the largest church in the US, says that he has a message of love, and never preaches anything to put anyone down. When being interviewed by Larry King, after King's insistence, he stated that He felt God had something better for people than homosexuality, but he'd never preach that kind of message. A friend of mine interviewed a popular Atlanta pastor who told him off the record that he personally felt most homosexuals were going to hell; however, he would never say so in the pulpit because he knows that so many of his members probably are. Maybe ít's just me, but I'd rather a pastor who's upfront with me than one who pretends that he accepts me.

Lise
August 6 2005, 5:10AM

QUOTE:

All I'm saying is I wonder if homosexuals can practice and advocate abstinence the same way that some heterosexuals do. If God accepts us, then I assume that he wants us to choose partners wisely and not copulate with every good looking man who takes us out to dinner. What are the Christian stands to which we should hold ourselves?? Will there ever be a day when parents tell their young gay children not to have sex before marriage?

END QUOTE

who is to say that we don't? you said not to use the counter arguement that heterosexual people also indulge in promiscuous behavior, but your post implies that as gay people, we should be held to different standards. not that we AREN'T, but that we SHOULD BE. are we not all human? promiscuity is a human trait. no classification of sexuality has it cornered. but the way it gets portrayed (especially in some churches), you would think that we were the ONLY ones doing it. and yet, everyone knows a church or two where various church members, sometimes even the pastor are participating in promiscuous affairs, and it's often overlooked. however, in order to be "good christians" we are often told to deny oursleves companionship and love.

also troubling is the sweeping generalization that all homosexuals are promiscuous. again, pointing out that we are human, our personalities vary just as much as any other sector of the population. some of us partake in risky behavior, some of us are more conservative. it's a personal choice. if that is what you are told homosexuals do or better yet, your own behavior, that doesn't make it the norm for the rest of us.

as for teaching our children, gay or otherwise about abstinence/safer sex, it seems that more and more people are favoring NOT talking about it at all and pretending sexuality doesn't exist. unfortunately. but i don't doubt that there are parents and mentors, both homo- and heterosexual who teach their progeny how to be responsible. whether it's due to a moral/religious obligation or simply an intelligent one.

Jay
August 9 2005, 11:09AM

Thank you for the article, does anyone have a list of Gay friendly churches in the NYC area

Milton
August 9 2005, 3:54PM

Charles, thank you for your post, I have been saying the same thing for years! Keith, continue doing what you do so well! There are no words to express what you bring to table. Thank you and we love you!

Cody
August 11 2005, 9:43PM

Confused,

I hear what you are saying. Even within the confines of homosexuality there should be some sort of moral standard, some code of ethics that govern spirituality.

Yes, there should be, and there is.

Paul wrote, "all things are permissible for me, but not all things are beneficial."

That which does not benefit us, simply won't no matter how much its advocates kick and scream. Like Paul I say let folks be who they are and allow them to reap what they sow.

I in no way am condemning anyone. We each have a conscience that should guide our actions. God talks to each of us through that conscience.

We all reap what we sow.

Being homosexual is not a sin. Same gender loving is not a sin. Doing what comes natual to you is not a sin.

However, homosexuals just like everyone else can and do sin.

Homosexuals are not free to lie, cheat, steal or act in selfserving ways no more than anyone else.