The Day I Hugged Louis Farrakhan

jaymillionaire
March 3 2005, 5:51AM

Keith,

I can't imagine what you must go through --knowing these bigots are looking at you as some kind of sickened pervert --and yet at the same time, you must school these ignorant immoral folks.

I may not agree with all of your stances, BUT YOU'VE GOT BALLS THE SIZE OF TEXAS!!!

jaymillionaire
March 3 2005, 5:58AM

Seems as if Farrahkoons acceptance of gays has been in the works for a long time coming, check out your very own article.

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2000_10.html

Guess who??
March 3 2005, 6:21AM

In reading this article, as a black, powerful, young gay male from Chicago, this does NOT set well with me. My first initial thought is, we must separate our personal choices and opinions from the church and the Godly principle order that was put in place in the word of God- the bible. The sad part is not seeing the homosexual agenda defended, I am sad to see that pastors are not defending the agenda and the will of God for our life by showing undisputed words of wisdom from the word of God. People, political activist, "Honorable Ministers," professors are influencing the church and forcing their views on the order of God and the church which is very disturbing. . In salvation within Christianity, it is the act of restoring ourselves back to the righteous place where we fell in Adam, where frail humanity lost connection with God. I know that there are other religions, Islam, which requires submission, Judaism, which requires the act of abiding to the laws of the torah and the Talmud. Those individuals within the alternative lifestyle, whether they chose to be in the lifestyle, forced or born in that manner, is beloved by God. The church has no right to denounce the spiritual edification of those who seek God, but they do have the obligation to protect that sanctification of the church and the purity of the body of Christ within the local assembly. The latest concern is the diametric views of those in the clergy who on one hand enforces the constitutions of God, but turn their face and let defilement ruin the church’s image. The name of the church is smeared and now has little or no power in their words when they speak against new age issues such as same-sex marriages or homosexuals in the clergy. Some clergy do rather not mention the issue but they are the ones who have their hands out for those in alternative lifestyles who pay great money to have membership in certain edifices or the construction thereof. On the other side, we do have church clergy who condone such acts and have enforced programs and “ministries” that endorse and promote the actions of alternative lifestyles within the church. This leads me to believe that the local Pastor, the one who is suppose to watch over the soul and spiritual bread of life is not clean and should be removed from the office in which he or she holds. At the same time, we have the GLBT movement thriving and becoming stronger each day. They push and fight for equal rights at every chance claiming their voice is not heard. We do hear them, we hear their plea for assistance, and we do not deny the United States Constitution gives free speech as it but the church should not be forced to accept it. Over the past few years, many people, especially in the protestant faith church are dealing with the latest sociological issue of morality and lifestyle. From the Church of God in Christ to southern Baptist or from denominational affiliations to non-denominational affiliations I can say that there is a great divide over homosexuals in the church. We should always seek the truth and let the truth stand own its own merits and in this high profile debate, many people say that homosexuals are welcome to the church but should not be active. Some say that there is no problem with homosexuals being active in the church and have permitted them in the auxiliaries and the leadership of religious institutions. In some cases, we have homosexual men and lesbian women who have chosen to denounce their affiliation with the homosexual/lesbian lifestyle and live a new, clean life before God. Many have sought after counseling and/or deliverance from sexual sin spirits that grow with them and many have testimonials that this is the absolute route to partake of if you truly want to please God. Diametrically, we have homosexual and lesbian activist who push for gay rights and marriages in the United States and want freedoms to buy homes together and have joint banking accounts and other marital benefits. In all of the turmoil of these debates on all levels, everyone seek answers from men and women appointed by God within the church to give correct and precise counsel from the wisdom of God. Unfortunately, we have a major disconnect and many Pastors, Bishops, Apostles, Elders and Teachers either are missing the wisdom of God’s word or is really unfolding the mystery truth concerning this issue. At this point I fear that the church is a hostage to the homosexual agenda and the advancement of the homosexual community. Furthermore, I feel that truth, devine truth will be the only factor that can break this stronghold over the church by the homosexual agenda.

Kenneth
March 3 2005, 11:43AM

I was pleased to see some of our communities greatest thinkers brought together to address the state of Black America and to ponder the content of a "covenant" or plan to address the unresolved issues in our community.

I was also quite pleased to see that homosexuality was addressed, and not treated as some cancer exacerbating the problems of Black America--as was done in the show that aired afterwards on C-SPAN.

Black conservatives from organizations from BOND in Los Angeles, CORE (Coalition for Racial Equality), Booker T. Washington's great-granddaughter (well, nothing great about her IMHO). These people definitely had not watched the preceding program, had the endorsement of the lily-white Heritage Foundation, and simply made fools of themselves. The often contradicted themselves in flawed logic and denied the need to focus on why people are dying in unjust wars, and going broke to pay for them, rather than with whom I make love.

In my community, here in New Mexico, African American leadership is disappointingly inadequate. Ego maniacs, glory grabbers, cronyism, and a lack of LEADERSHIP values will do more damage to the tiny Black population here than any gay man could ever do.

Seeing Keith, and these other notable African Americans intellectually embrace one another to collaborate on such a covenant was inspiring to me, one who has become disillusioned.

I love Minister Farrakhan. I used to attend mosque every Sunday when I lived in St. Louis. That was many years ago, and the stance from the NOI on homosexuality was something I could never resolve. On the other hand, the messages about Black economic empowerment (especially being an entrepreneur) were very attractive.

I saw a recent article in ?USA Today? that described the spending behaviors of Blacks and point to priorities such as clothing, alcohol, furniture, and cars--all commodities we do not own.

We know (just take a look at the message board talk of white privilege) that white people do business with one another, often despite homosexuality, for whatever reason. True enough, they may be hiding in the closet, but at least there's a job, or a client in that closet waiting for them because they are part of a cohesive economic community.

If we can start to support each other's businesses, and develop unity (I loved the graphic of the dots one speaker displayed on Tavis' forum), we can overcome our differences collectively. Given that homosexuality was held in high regard in pre-colonial Africa, I can only blame missionaries for creating the homophobia among us.

We must first learn to love one another and to respect the infinity diversity of this universe. The culture in which we live does not encourage the self-esteem that is needed to not only inspire confidence in our own businesses.

('cause I hear y'all when you talk about the brother that half does a job, charges double, and gets an attitude when you question it!)

If we can learn to love ourselves and one another, we will take pride in our work, and be proud to say we do business with one another. As it was said on the forum, we must first make a covenant with ourselves.

Thank you Keith, for being part of this affirming experience for me.

DB
March 3 2005, 12:11PM

Keith,

I have a couple of things to address.

1) I agree with Jay that you have literal "balls of steel." And, you've been blessed with a gift that you utilize so well. Who better to been an advocate than you. I enjoy your work and relish the fact that you stand behind what you believe--that's what being a MAN is all about. Kudos to you for saying all the things we want to say and more.

2) Addressing "Guess Who's Comments. I applaud you for taking the time to visit this site and impart you beliefs. However, I have a few problems with what you've stated. a) You said that "At this point I fear that the church is a hostage to the homosexual agenda and the advancement of the homosexual community. Furthermore, I feel that truth, devine truth will be the only factor that can break this stronghold over the church by the homosexual agenda." I believe that the church is never a VICTIM. The church, for one, is in us. The building is only a symbol and a common place of worship. So maybe you should say you feel that the church in you is victim. God has placed us all here for a reason. Since He put us here, he cares for, loves, and appreciates each of us. And what is the homesexual agenda you speak of? Are saying that the church was a victim to the civil rights "agenda" as well? Equality in all facets of life is the goal here. There is no "agenda." Too often we judge one another without cause. That's the "downfall" of many churches---meaning US. That's why every time a confrontation arises are a controversial issue is introduced, we demonize and abhor it, rather than address it like respectful and "God-fearing" people. There's your problem. This agenda you speak of is not it. EVERY TIME YOU POINT A FINGER, THERE ARE THREE POINTING BACK AT YOU. b) If you are going to leave comments like this, at least have the Balls, The gumption, the respect, the leave your name. Nothing irks me more than someone who feels like they can drop in, cause a ruckus, then run away undetected. And, I bet you're email address isn't real either. Now who's a man? You, even if you're a woman, or the man who's article you wish to destroy?

If you disagree with me, then my email address really works!

Marlon
March 3 2005, 12:13PM

Keith, as always, Kudos! Long’s church was an excellent choice; good to see all the Saints fed with the Word of Truth by their own respected theist leaders.

I encourage you to post the female minister’s name, email, phone, fax, etc.. so a letter writing campaign can commence immediately, or email me directly and I’ll take it form there.

Now is the time for Madam Minister to know what Love is. Much luv brotha!

bklynbro
March 3 2005, 1:07PM

Keith, thank you. If only more in the Black gay community would confront the Black church. I can't help but wonder about the gay members of Long's church. I've heard there are many.

Dwayne Wayne
March 3 2005, 1:50PM

Keith,

Thank you for this moving post. It is such a powerful feeling when our people, especially our leaders come and work together. I am floored that Minister Louis Farrakhan embraced you and the community.

I definitely agree with Jay and DB, in regards to the size of your balls. My brother, continue to STAY STRONG. We are supporting you.

DW

malcolm
March 3 2005, 3:27PM

Do it bro!

Jamel
March 3 2005, 3:34PM

Keith, thanks for the great article and I love you. Guess Who, please don't hate who you are because, we don't need self-hating people supporting oppression and ignorance. The church has been changing for centuries and change always seem positive. The bible is not the word of good, but you can find his word's in it.

Stephen Maglott
March 3 2005, 4:12PM

Keith:
Much praise to you and your efforts, and a deep thanks for approaching Minister Farrakhan. I had the privilege many years ago to share breakfast with Minister Farrakhan at the home of mutual friends with which he was staying while visiting Buffalo. I found him to be warm and engaging, and generally supportive of the SGL community, but he was cautious not to “embrace” gay folks. I have been at several venues since then where he has spoken about gay folks as a “problem” for the Black community, and he seems to dance along a fine line when dealing with the issue.

You took perfect advantage of an opportunity to show a real face and present a new perspective of Black, Gay men to leaders like Minister Farrakhan and others at the State of the Black Union event. Thank you for your advocacy and your positive, loving efforts.

Stephen Maglott
NY State Senate

LaBron Hatcher
March 3 2005, 4:12PM

Greeting Mr. Keith Boykin,
Thanks so much your courage and accepting the invitation to serve as a panelist for the 2005 State of Black America" hosted by Tavis Smiley. I too shared your concern about the event being held at Bishop Eddie Long's New Birth Missionary Baptist Church. But after watching, I realized that it happened exactly the way it was supposed to. My parents are both "orthodox" muslims and both expressed how much they enjoyed the program. I am excited about the 10th aniversity of the million man march and I would like to share a way that I feel we can make our pressence felt strongly. Creating a long and lasting positive impression on our black family. Please be sure to look out for a press release written by Mr. Craig Washington...

Isis M Jones
March 3 2005, 4:15PM

Keith,

To whom much is given, much is expected. I was fortunate to catch the special on C-span and was greatly encouraged that you were there. Keep your head up and know that you have support here in St Louis, brother. Be blessed.

Peace
Isis

Doug
March 3 2005, 4:37PM

I would really like to see the telecast of this event. I can recall walking to work past one of the mosques and hearing his virulent anti-gay sermons during the '80's. I still want to hear more from him, but you are right, it is definitely a start. What the speakers of the forum had in common was intellect. I'll keep my eyes open for the telecast.

Ron Simmons
March 3 2005, 8:54PM

Keith, I saw the program and must commend you on a great job (and as I've said before, a great book). I have already said that your name should be on the short list (a real short list) of possible gay speakers at the million man march. Given that our heterosexual brothers and sisters have invited us to partake in the march, it's time for the black glbt community to nationally start discussing the march and our participation in it. Do you know if glbt folks in other cities are beginning to discuss this? DC has had one community meeting already and another is scheduled in a few weeks. I think there are at least four issues we need to address. First, who should the speaker be. Second, what should the speaker present as the black glbt agenda (I am against the idea that the speaker decides the speech content for him or her self. We as a glbt community should have discussions across the nation about what our agenda should be and the platform we want to present.) Third, should we mobilize the black glbt community to attend the march in significant numbers? Fourth, what else should we request in addition to a gay or lesbian speaker? Specifically, I think the idea of a gay speaker is nice but it "ghettoizes" homophobia as simply an issue that the glbt community is concerned with. We had Audrey Lorde speak at the anniversary of the march on washington, but little has changed because of it. We should demand that a hetersosexual speaker, like Al Sharpton or Farrakhan, also address the issue of homophobia and how it limits the black community. Indeed, I think we should demand an apology from religious leaders for the harm they have caused through their past and current support of homophobia. This is a real chance for the black community to have a discussion (about heterosexism and homophobia) that is long overdue. We as glbt folks will have to force the conversation or we may find ourselves in same situation, confronting the same issues, when the march is long over.

Brandon Joe
March 4 2005, 4:43AM

Just surfed in and found this really interesting place here. A lot of good stuff for everybody.

JP
March 4 2005, 5:41AM

Keith:

Very sorry I missed the Tavis Smiley show. I was hoping you would e-mail us all so we'd get to see it.

In any event this was a wonderful story. It seems that Minister Farrakhan has had a sudden epiphany. (Somewhat reminiscent of Malcolm's awakening don't you think?) What do you suppose brought on this sudden enlightenment? Can we trust is as genuine?

JP
March 4 2005, 5:47AM

Btw: I commend you for your courage in coming out and up front Minister Farrakhan! I salute you!!!

Guess who??
March 4 2005, 6:28AM

I received many responses to my statement addressed to my e-mail address and see many addressed my statement on the website which is very good to see. Before I render my rebuttal statements, I want to point out that my e-mail address is correct and anyone may send me an e-mail anytime you wish, I welcome you. Concerning my name, that is irrelevant and has nothing to do with my comments or manhood. I am not hiding anything therefore to make it clear, revealing my name is not an issue; I chose not to do so that is my sole discretion. Addressing Jamel, I am not in the business to oppress others, or promote self-hate but to educate and teach others the truth and increase their knowledge or processes in interpretation.

I want to give a quick, abridged version (As much as possible) of how we view the church and how we distort the image of the church. Addressing DB’s comment, yes, the church is in us and we are individuals who carry the heart and the word of God to share with others. However, I want to point out that the issue is we view the physical church as the place of worship-, which it is I do not deny this. When I speak of the church, I speak about the entire body; I speak towards the standard, the government (Not denominational governments or religious orders) and the members of the spiritual body of the church. We have leaders in the body of Christ who do not invoke the spiritual standards to confront issues within the body stated in the word of God. This is due to the spiritual ear that is deaf our church leaders have and thus, we have friction and opened the church (your local assembly) to attack. We seek answers from man on how to resolve or issues and differences, consequently, we fail and the issue lingers ultimately grow and become bigger. Our church leaders are spiritually numb and untrained to invoke the divine wisdom of God to impart divine truth in situation such as this. Having a forum and inviting people to speak extemporaneously, poetically with poise and easiness, are not God’s answers to remedy the issues we have with one another or in society concerning homosexuality and the issues facing the community. I can speak about this issue from many aspects and avenues as there many issues within the church but I will refrain from doing so. My primary target is to convey the message that the homosexual agenda is targeting the church and holding the church hostage. Someone asked me, what is the homosexual agenda? In philosophical review, the homosexual culture of today is trying to promote acceptance and influence the public to accept and widely embrace the culture. We want to promote gay marriage and have the public to accept it. We permeate into local educational institutions and universities promoting the message that being a homosexual is great and that everyone who is heterosexual should be subjective to your orientation. Please understand I do not promote discrimination against creed, color, orientation or origin. However, the gay culture is forcing influences on wider society and that is unacceptable; we cannot do this as we have not counted the cost and forecasted the life-changing effects it may cause to future generations. Since the government is taking bold steps to stop our momentum due to our brunt efforts, we use the church as the next biggest societal institution (Our hostage) of influence to bring about change for our gain in the homosexual life. The perplexing issue I have is not the agenda of our lifestyle, but the leaders of church who is spiritually numb and unable to hear the heart of God and speak the oracles to our issues we face today. This issue is in another realm higher than the homosexual issue at hand. I found that the church structure is to blame for this spiritual interruption for our leaders. The foundation of the church is not built on God’s principles and Godly structure. Today’s churches primarily based on unbiblical principles and opinions of man, where the church revolves around the leader-figure not the spiritual structure God intended. When Godly order is absent, the blessing, favor, wisdom and the heart of God will also be absent. Thus, the church is standing alone, numb, frail, open to attack of opinions of man and ungodly counsel in which the church cannot speak back in return. Again, I am trying to make this high-level abridge version as this can be a lengthy argument.

My ultimate prayer (And everyone else should pray the same) should be for the will of God to be done in our lives and to correct what is wrong and bring life to those things that is pure, gracious and correct. One thing is for sure, God will not force himself on you without permission. Knowing this, we should not enforce or make someone embrace the homosexual culture by forcing it on society.

Jamel
March 4 2005, 8:45AM

Guess who, you can't be a homosexual, embracing discrimination and oppression. You have the same views as a segregationist. They argue it was ungodly to integrate with blacks. Guess who, those people are alive and you can visit their websites. The homosexual agenda is not the problem. Heterosexual prejudice against homosexuals is the problem. Prejudice and the harassment against gay kids worldwide is the problem. Ministers preaching ignorance from the pulpit contributes to the downfall of the black community. They also contribute to HIV and the financial deterioration of the community. People will always hate, regardless, but our goal is to make sure we are protected by the law. I don't care if someone hates or disagree with me.

Some "religious" people today believe that oppressing women and blacks is what the bible teaches. There were blacks who did not believe in embracing The Civil Rights Movement and I think you are one of those people. I don't think this is a liberal or conservative argument. Homosexuals are finally speaking out for their rights and we are facing opposition. It's cool because women and every group faced opposition, but I don't think you should embrace ignorance because, everyone have a different interpretation of the bible. My biblical views are not the same as many folks, but I don't judge and force my beliefs down people throats and heterosexuals should not do that either. Homosexuals are citizens too. Now, if you think that it's ok to fire someone because they are gay, there is a serious problem. I think people realize that some folks can't change their sexual orientation, but some people love to hear others complain about being discriminated against.

Guess who??
March 4 2005, 10:59AM

Jamel,

I do not follow the logic about some comments you made. Let me ask some questions to invoke fundamental thought:

1. How does "preaching" from the pulpit promote the spread of HIV and the downfall of the black community?

2. I noticed that in every type of response (not only yours) people tie the "church" to segregation and white supremacy. Do you remember it was the strength and voice of the black church that perpetuated the civil rights movement for freedom to end segregation? If this is so, then how can you strengthen your argument that the church is the issue of homosexual problems?

3. In my reply comments, I gave a brief overview of the church and image. Please bear in mind, there is a difference between those in church and those who are “religious.” I do not promote discrimination but forcing the homosexual agenda on others and not counting the costs is perpetuating the issues we see in our opposition. We face these issues because in part, we are not engaging society in a favorable way. There is no problem in disagreement but the issue I seem to find is that we force ourselves and our rights and flaunt our muscle (The little we have as a minority within a minority) and have no consideration for others.

4. Yes, you have the right to speak and have the constitutional right to speak but who will listen, consider our culture, and receive us with respect? Your employment is protected by law and cannot be fired just because you are a homosexual. Yes, we are citizens and we should think about the greater society first before focusing on our selfish agenda, which could negatively affect generations after us!

Charles Muhammad
March 4 2005, 12:09PM

Peace my Brother,

It appears in this article you are saying that Minister Farrakhan and the Nation Of Islam have evloved to the point of accepting the behavior of Homosexuality. Please don't confuse the Minister's love of people with his acceptance of their lifestyles or behavior. He was in fact expressing his true feelings for you when he hugged you he really does love you however he does not condone homosexuality at all. Please clarify your understanding of his invitation of all of our people to attend the upcoming Million Man March I say again it was not a endorsement of homosexuality.
Peace be unto you my Brother.

leon grant
March 4 2005, 12:37PM

Thank you Charles Muhammad. I think Boykin read too much and jumped to way too many conclusions about a friendly embrace by Minister Farrakhan. It reminds me of the gay lore that has grown up about Dr King and Bayard Rustin. King loved Rustin, but did not love his homosexuality. It is possible to do so. Boykin's problem is that he is so agenda driven that he can't distinguish between someone embracing his personhood and not his behavior. Thanks again for clarifying that.
LGRANT

Jamel
March 4 2005, 1:48PM

Guess Who, you believe that we should accomodate discrimination at the expense of people suffering? People can lose their jobs or be denied rent for being a homosexual and that is real. Guess Who, the church played a major role in the Civil Rights Movement, but non religious leaders such as Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph played an even bigger role in challenging discrimination before 1950 and during the movement. When ministers preached against homosexuals, it causes SOME people to engaged in risky behavior because, they hate the fact that no one accepts them. These individuals are rejected by their family members at the expense of what they heard from preachers. Therefore, they are kicked out from their homes, without no place to live. They(especially teenagers 17 years and younger) hang out in Greenwich Villiage(NYC) and become street prostitutes. It saddens me to see young people walking the streets after midnight. Some people engage in risky behavior because, no one cares about them. Words can influence people views. That's why I believe that SOME ministers contribute to the destruction of the black community.

DB
March 4 2005, 1:59PM

If you can't tell already, I'm enjoying this dialogue with Guess Who? I appreciate you giving your viewpoints and allowing me to agreeably disagree with you. Maybe we'll all learn something from this. Here's my response to the latest post.

1. You said: "Our church leaders are spiritually numb and untrained to invoke the divine wisdom of God to impart divine truth in situation such as this." (How can you much such a broad generalization? This is just like saying all men are dogs. If that were the case, 0% of marriages, relationships, etc would succeed. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say. My preacher is not numb. He gives us the unadulterated word of God. As well, he is compassionate and a true man of God. God didn’t discriminate, neither does he. Speak about who you know to fit this stereotype.)

2. You said: "My primary target is to convey the message that the homosexual agenda is targeting the church and holding the church hostage." (Again, I ask where you came up with this idea? It’s very broad. Keith participated in a summit that was held in a church, but had nothing to do with the church, per se. Does that mean he did the summit only because the church was the place to be? I think not. In the context of the homosexual agenda that you reference, the target is humanity. Wherever the people are, there will be the message. The church is always under fire so it’s easy to say the message is only spread there. Look more closely into the crystal ball and you’ll hear the message all around you—beyond the walls of the church. You have tunnel vision….broaden your scope.)

3. You said: "In philosophical review, the homosexual culture of today is trying to promote acceptance and influence the public to accept and widely embrace the culture." (The homosexual community is promoting self-acceptance, first and foremost, and then widespread acceptance. You don’t have to embrace anyone’s culture or beliefs to agreeably disagree about it. I think that’s the goal here. You don’t have to agree with anything I do, but you MUST respect my decision to do it.)

4. You said: "We permeate into local educational institutions and universities promoting the message that being a homosexual is great and that everyone who is heterosexual should be subjective to your orientation." (Where have you heard such a message? Whoever delivered such a message needs to be schooled as well. Like I said earlier, it’s about teaching us to love ourselves. Then WE try to teach others who don’t understand, which is the cause of much confusion, how to abide peace.)

5. You said: "However, the gay culture is forcing influences on wider society and that is unacceptable; we cannot do this as we have not counted the cost and forecasted the life-changing effects it may cause to future generations." (No one can force anything upon anyone. You have to allow it. I think the benefits greatly outweigh the cost of invoking a spirit of unity in purpose and peaceful existence worldwide. What future generations learn is that it’s OK to be who you are. God made you who you are, as well did he me. That’s what makes each of us special. If we were all alike, what benefit would we be to the next man? That’s the lesson younger and future generations learn!!!!!)

6. You said: "The perplexing issue I have is not the agenda of our lifestyle, but the leaders of church who is spiritually numb and unable to hear the heart of God and speak the oracles to our issues we face today." (This statement is so contradictory to what you have already stated thus far. Have we reached how you really feel about the “agenda” you mentioned?)

7. You said: "Today’s churches primarily based on unbiblical principles and opinions of man, where the church revolves around the leader-figure not the spiritual structure God intended." (I think you should qualify this statement. Broad generalizations get everyone using them in trouble.)

8. You said: "Yes, you have the right to speak and have the constitutional right to speak but who will listen, consider our culture, and receive us with respect?" (The point of speaking about any issue is to garner respect and to heighten awareness. While many may not listen to what you have to say, something you said will sink in and leave an impression—be it good or bad—they’ll know that you were there and had something to say. That’s always a good start. The thing that great leaders and speakers have in common is meeting people where they are. By that, I mean you cater your speech to the audience—this is not to say you compromise your beliefs. You break down or step it up based on who’s listening. If you first give respect to your audience, and deliver your speech in a manner that commands respect, you get it. You can permeate any culture with the right touch.)

I look forward to further dialogue.

Stanley L. Walker
March 4 2005, 3:21PM

I'd just like to pop in and say that no fleshly being has the power to condone or bless anyone. That is up to the Divine. Which is why I still do not understand the "God hates gays" groups. While various groups throughout history have hated and hated some more, God hasn't. Although Man has SAID He does because it suits his purposes with that whole Patriarchal thing going on.

But in plain English: only God may judge. And somewhere in history people forgot that. I would hope that we are beyond the silliness of the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials but every now and again things like gay marriage bans make me doubt.

Guess Who??
March 4 2005, 4:18PM

Again, I see that many fail to pick up the concept, let me interpose to make a few comments. This is specifically addressing DB.

1. Yes, many of our church leaders are spiritually numb. Many pastors may have the form of godliness but deny the power thereof. (I'll let you marinate on that for a moment) Yes, a leader in the church can provide comfort and minister truth but what is demonstrated after the truth is spoken? If you believe God does not discriminate, take a closer look again, he does! God loves us all but God will not accept everything about us and the things we do in our lives. If so, then God is a terrible position.

2. You missed the target concept of the church in hostage. I was not speaking anywhere near Mr. Boykin being on the panel in a church speaking on the subjects of Black America. Please elevate your interscope processes and read again my comments, you missed the point!

3. Did you just say promoting "self-acceptance" and then, "widespread acceptance?" Then at the end you mention if you package the message and have a good manner in delivery of the message you will, "command respect?" Does this sound a bit forceful to you? In my interpretation, you are forcing your view and trying to have the wider society to accept you...why are you forcing others to accept our culture? This could be the root cause of our opposition, true?

4. I will refrain from answering this but I will keep this comment high level. Yes, we must learn to live in peace and in unity not only towards sexual orientation but other different factors alike. You are correct, difference makes everyone unique, but let me ask, if a seventeen year old boy kills five people randomly, is that acceptable? Could you peacefully love and accept him? Please be careful when you address elements concerning peoples "self." Everyone's "self" changes and revolves due to encounters in life, issues, trials and tests. Our "self" image is ever changing for the better or the worst. Remember you will never know your "self" as it will always escape your own detection for examination. This is a philosophical reply and must be read with such speculations for full understanding!

5. You are making the same mistake some people say, "God made us this way." Yes, God created you but he did not make you this "way." If so, then why do we have diametric sexual orientations? There is no scientific proof confirming that orientation is developed by gene or biological chemicals in the body. Neither is sexual orientation is natural because if it is natural it must be uniformed. So strengthen your argument on, "God created us this way!" This argument is weak, decadent and holds no merit.

6. The homosexual agenda is weak. Our approach needs to be defined more. Question: how could homosexual men push for marriage when many are so single? How come you see little faithfulness in homosexual relationships or lasting relationships diametric to lesbian relationships? Think on that and respond after in marinate in deep thoughts! Personal opinion, I would sponsor lesbians for marriage before homosexual men and I am gay myself!

7. This answer must be for those who are theologically inclined. I would be here for two more hours responding to this question, but I will give you a bonus. The church is centered around the leader and that is the wrong structure. We should return to the Antioch church structure started by the five-fold ministry in the book of Acts of the Apostles.

8. Typical. This comment proves my first comments. The gay culture is forcing themseleves in society and getting more oppositon than respect, why? We try to put the majority of the blame on heterosexual prejudices and hatred but that is a slip-slope argument.

7.

Don Jones
March 4 2005, 6:25PM

I saw the program and was glad your appearance came off "positive". However, Min Farrakhan may just be giving "lip service". He desperately needs as many folks as possible to attend his upcoming March...be they Black, White, Gay or Straight...For it to be successful, he needs as many people as possible to make a statement. This keeps him in the limelight. Nevertheless, I hope his motive is genuine...only time will tell.
Don Jones
Memphis, TN

Jamel
March 4 2005, 6:25PM

Guess who, gay prejudice is based on majority heterosexual prejudice, with self-hating gays adding to it. "God made me this way." I can't speak on behalf of everyone, but I'm a homosexual regardless if I engage in sexual activities with an individual of my sex or not(which I don't). In other words, a murder is an act committed by an individual. Therefore, the comparison is not strong. You are a self-hating homosexual who don't care about anyone, especially gay youth and you are selling out your brothers and sisters. It's obvious that you don't like change and you probably was not a fan of Dr. King or women rights leaders. We are a social group just like women and ethnic groups. Also, most REAL PROFESSIONALS think that sexual orientation can't be change and I can give you every professional site. Next time you're in church, ask your minister to provide some professional sources, besides their personal interpretation of the bible to clarify his/her argument against homosexuality. I know they won't provide professional sources to defend their argument.

Guess Who??
March 5 2005, 2:16AM

Addressing Jamels comments:

1. Yes, I do agree to a certain degree that the prejudices we encounter are based from heterosexual comparision and standard. My question in return to you is, what perpetuates this prejudice?

2. I do not promote self-hatred and encourage people to find themselves and strengthen their life. I am not in the business in "selling out" my counterparts in this lifestyle.

3. I see again my point was missed when using the analogy of the murdering seventeen year old. The focus would be, will you accept and love this individual knowing this "act" they committed, showing compassion as it is towards your homosexual counterparts? Was he "himself" when he committed this act? Didn't the bible say, "So as a man thinketh, so is he?" Further, engaging into a sexual act is not subject to who you are, but a choice. This is equal to a person committing a crime and knowing this crime they commit is further from thier character and personality. Also you must read the latter part of section to fully understand this analogy in the previous reply.

4. I love Dr. King and support the women movement. Why are you comparing our struggle with the movement of women freedom anyhow? I support writers such as, Alice Walker, Maya Angelou, Nikki Giovanni, Gwendolyn Brooks, Toni Morrison and a host of other prominent respected women. Unfortunately, their struggle is different from our homosexual agenda. They were fighting for equal rights and freedom to be heared and respected. The homosexual agenda is dreadful and trying to change the course of life and generations to come by poisoning the image of marriage and defiling the institutions of church, government and family when we are not even stable in our own affairs.

5. "MOST PROFESSIONALS??" I am a Doctor in Education, Philosophy, Logic & Sociology, MAGNA CUM LAUDE teaching in Chicago, need I say more? Further, I do invest back into youth as I teach three times a week in my lectures.

6. There are bonafide cases where people have decided and changed their orientation therefore your argument is weak. Again, no scientific proof showing orientation is evidence in genetics or biological chemistry. Theoretically and evident providing orientation can be changed- ask Donnie McClurkin...LOL

jaymillionaire
March 5 2005, 5:15AM

Guess who,

Hold on there. There is biological evidence that one may be born biologically towards gay persuasion. This comes from a study of twins, the likelyhood in 90% of cases if one twin is gay, the other is gay.

This evidence suggest that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition --proven in this case by the twins having the same biological make up.

jaymillionaire
March 5 2005, 5:28AM

More on Guess who's ass,

Its funny that you talk about gay marriage as the "poisening the image of marriage" --sorry, but that institution was slipped a MICKEY a long-time ago. More marriages end in divorce than not, so your argument of some "sacred American bullshit" is ridiculous.

Now I do not support gay marriage, because I think it is ad hominem --marriage is a hetero tradition. SO LET THEM KEEP THEIR MARRIAGE.

And you think sexual orientation can be changed (that laughable) because I prayed many of nights (just like most of you reading this) and all I did was stain myself with self-hatred.

God made me this way, God doesn't make ugly, therefore, God meant for me to be gay. HOLLA

Jamel
March 5 2005, 8:34AM

Guess who, I graduated Magna Cum Laude with a degree in history from CUNY York College in 2004. But, a degree does not mean anything to me because I strongly believe in self education. The gay rights platform is very similiar to the history of the Civil and Women rights movement because, religion was a topic around each situation. As a professional, "lifestyle" should not be in our topic because, you don't personally know me or every homosexual worldwide. Gay rights is bigger than "gay" marriage. Gay rights is geared towards freeing homosexuals from persecution in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world. Were're in all parts of the world. Guess who, who do you think should be responsible for students who harasses a third grader because they suspect that he's gay? Do you think it's right for people to force their religious beliefs on homosexuals? From my religious perspective, the bible is full of errors, Jesus fully accepted same sex relationships(evidence in the bible), many of the figures in the bible were not heterosexual, the bible is written by human authors. The word "homosexual" was invented in the 19th Century. Why does the word exist in the bible? Some Christians don't believe that the bible is "the word of God." We believe that it contains the word of God, with some human errors. That's my perspective and it can't force folks to believe it. Now, why do we have to accommadate oppression, worldwide because heterosexuals perfer us to "stay in our place." Finally, Donnie Mcclurkin is likely a bisexual who never was a homosexual or he was abused by a male, therefore, becoming confuse about his sexuality. I was never abused by anyone.

Jamel
March 5 2005, 8:44AM

Continue: Guess who, I would respect a murderer because, people make mistakes. But, why do you use murderer in our topic about homosexuals? Do you think a eleven or twelve year old who questions his sexuality is living a "lifestyle." How do you view a gay person who never had sex with anyone? Please notice that I'm trying to respond to all your comments.

Guess Who??
March 5 2005, 12:32PM

1. Where may I find these results, verified by other medical review teams? You must understand, reserach "likeness" and verified, reproduced results are two different elements. At this point in time, there is no sure biolgical proof, just preliminary findings which is unsupported.

2. I travel extensively, seen a lot of things, reviewed/studied a lot of people, different ethnic groups, origins etc. I take pride in my education and therefore I teach my students to take pride in their education and never say, "it means nothing!" I spent seven years to obtain my Doctorate degree very proud of it. I do believe in self-education even after a degree. I am glad to see other educated young men and women, especially our black brothers and sisters. Maybe I can entice you to lecture for me as a guest...what level degree are you, Jamel?

3. Just as a murderer make mistakes so can the homosexual movement for "self-acceptance and freedom" could be in sociological error.

4. Someone commented, "Do you think it's right for people to force their religious beliefs on homosexuals?" My response: Do you think it's right to poison and force the homosexual agenda into wider society?

5. There are many more other cases besides McClurkin who have noted that sexual orientation can be changed. I also applaud his efforts in assisting young men and women to find thier identity in sexual preference and noting what is correct and abnormal. I have a friend who is a Doctor at Alexian Brother Hospital in Illinois, in which she have confirmed cases of people who have successfully converted their sexual orientation and never thought about returning to an alternative lifestyle...could we say that is biological altering going on? I think not!

6. A young person, eleven, twelve or so, questioning their lifestyle preference is healthy and developmental. This is the stage of curiosity, examination, choice, direction, experimentation which leads to their sexual preference ultimately.

7. Yes, the bible may have minor mistakes here or there due to translation reasons and etc. However, that is not an excuse to accept belief God ordains homosexuals (gays, whatever you wish to say it, and same-gender sex. Wow, here is a good scripture, "HE who findeth a WIFE findeth a good thing and obtain favor from the LORD." Trust me, I have extensively studied the bible, Qu'ran, 5 pillars of Islam, Talmud, Torah, Bhagavad Gita, Vedas,8-fold paths, 4 noble truths, Egyptian book of the dead, Diveri Torah and a host of others. None of them have recorded or noted that they accept homosexuality in any of the major religions or accept same-gender marriages, NONE!

8. I do agree people should be respected as an individual and the law previals to extend that protection. Having a third-grader bullied because another classmate think he is gay is an issue of the teacher to resolve. You cannot be excused from employment because your a homosexual. Legally, you cannot be disciminated against because your gay if you wish to buy a home or car, travel on a plane or wish to book a hotel room with two men staying together in it.

9. Somene commented, "why do we have to accommadate oppression, worldwide because heterosexuals perfer us to "stay in our place." How are you accommodating heterosexuals by going to work, school, cooking dinner, going to the club or hanging out with friends? You are not forced to sit in a certain sit on the bus or plane or asked to move to the back of a straight bar and grill because your gay, are you? You are not asked to move your office to the lower level floors of the high rise because your boss don't want potential clients to know he/she employ gay men, do you? You have individual freedoms and I see that we confuse them with sexual orientation opposition and I agree, there is a time and place for everything. Heterosexuals are also minding their business and they are not infringing on your rights, as an individual, are they? Heterosexuals follow the same guidelines of public decency and decorum in public as we do, right? Are you moving to a new apartment every three months because heterosexuals moved in your building or occupy most of your building? Please- think realistic and do not complicate life matters and subject them to who you are in your sexual preference, they can careless!

John Dennis
March 5 2005, 1:35PM

I had the pleasure of meeting you at your recent Atlanta book signing at Outwrite bookstore. I must admit your book has been thought provoking as well as affirming. I also from st. Louis experience a similar incident at Sears Jamestown Mall. I also had a similar experience with Mike A. at the Clayton Ballys. Your insightfulness is only verified by the teenage pregnacy increases incomparison to whites and other STD's in our community we have to continue to challenge and hold the black church responsible and accountable instead of taking a bury your head in the sand approach for comfort. This is the start of addressing many problems inside the black community and you should go down in history for pulling out of the closet.

Jamel
March 5 2005, 3:08PM

Guess who, I have a ba degree and I plan on attending graduate school in the Fall. Brother, you can't solely blame homosexuals for people stereotyping us. Scholars such as Dr. Cornel West, Dr. Michael Eric Dyson and most of the civil right legends understand the prejudice homosexuals experience. Popular public opinion usually disagree with any group of folks. I believe the heterosexist intolerance of anything that's different is the problem. Please visit the following web sites because they answer questions on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC me and you discussed: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html, http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html, http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/guidelines.html, http://truluck.com/index.html, http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm, http://anythingbutstraight.com/learnlegalhistory.html, http://www.melwhite.org/biblesays.html, http://www.anitaroddic.com/weblog/weblogdetail.jsp?title=null&id=787, http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/ramify.htm, http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/section3.htm, http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm, http://www.orgs.bucknell.edu/flagb/heterosexism.htm, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.html, http://members.aol.com/gunnyding/nt/nt.htm, http://www.whosever.org/v2i3/bilbrey.html, http://www.soulforce.org/main/augustine.shtml

Guess who, some of these sites were created by heterosexuals and homosexuals. Good luck and differences of opinions is ok.

Jamel
March 5 2005, 3:19PM

Guess who, where's the biological proof for heterosexuality? Folks can't give us that answer.

Guess Who??
March 5 2005, 8:24PM

Thank you for this information.

1.Unfortunately, those sites are not credible so they are not useful to me. You should know better to recommend such sites that is inadequate. Speak with me when you obtain your Master's or higher, your perspective will change.

2. I never said biological evidence existed for heterosexuals, If so, point it out for me. In summary, nothing is proven biolgically or in genetics in connection with sexual preference.

3. Dr. Dyson and Dr. West, are well respected in the black community. In my own opinion, they are not level minded to speak to the issues of today. Their views and opinions are only stuck on one side of the fence which is not useful. My friend and colleague is a good friend to Dr. Dyson here in Chicago. Unfortunately, I feel these men are finite in thinking and creativity to say the least.

Guess Who??
March 5 2005, 8:25PM

Quick Note:

The only person who I would promote to speak about the issues of today would be Dr. Alan Keyes, a good friend and associate.

Jamel
March 5 2005, 10:30PM

Guess who, the American Psychological Association, the American Federation of Teachers, the American Counseling Association,the American School Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the National Association of School Psychologist, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the National Education Association is not credible to you? I respect Alan Keyes excellent speaking skills, but I don't respect his way of stereotyping people. I also respect SOME of Armstrong Williams and SOME of Ward Connerly's views. Now, you don't think Harvard University Scholar, The Rev. Peter J. Gomes or retired Newark Episcopal bishop, John Spong work is credible? Guess who, Dr. Cornel West and Professor Michael Eric Dyson are respected by more than just black folks.

I'll quote some material from the Late John Boswell, former Professor and Chairman of the History department at Yale University. In, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, Boswell argues that, "Many homosexual relationships were permanent and exclusive. Among the lower classes informal unions like that of Giton and Encolpius may have predominated, but marriages between males and females were legal and familiar among the upper classes. Even under the Republic, as has been noted, Cicero regarded the younger Curio's relationship with another man as a marriage, and by the time of the early Empire references to gay marriage are commonplace. Martial and Juvenal both mention public ceremonies involving the families, dowries, and legal niceties. Martial points out (II.42) that both men involved in one ceremony were thorougly masculine ("The bearded Callistratus married the rugged Afer") and that the marriage took place under the same law which regulated marriage between men and women. Nero married two men in succession, both in public ceremonies with the ritual appropriate to legal marriage." Please let's remember that John Boswell was a Yale University scholar and not some uneducated individual.

That's why I don't understand what folks mean by, "traditional marriage." Anyway, I guess you think it's ok for folks to be called derogatory names and face persecution at the hands of prejudice folks. It's ok for people to get harass by folks who assume they are homosexual. Do you that folks should just get "beat up" by oppressive forces in society? Do you believe that a thirteen kid, who was physically attacked by other boys who suspected he was gay is the victim fault? Please respond. There is scientific proof which relates to homosexuality, but it should not matter because, the bible contains evidence of positve homosexuality and people should not suffer from abuse and prejudice. I don't think the "word of God" should be limited only to what's in the bible because, the authors were not scientifically advance as we are. Guess who, history always respect change. Women and others had their movement. Now, it's our time to demand respect and it will happen because, we live in America. Women as a group did not have to ride on the back of the bus either.

Guess Who??
March 5 2005, 11:10PM

Nice piece of article but still one-sided thinking, which is expected. I respect other Doctors in the field but I do not have to agree with them. Dr. Keyes is a good associate and speaks well, that I agree. He also have insight that these other Doctor's often miss which is why I promote Dr. Keyes along with Dr. Stark of Chicago. Dr. Dyson, Dr. West and the others are "spinning wheels" and offer little insight on sociological subjects.

AMauney
March 5 2005, 11:18PM

Keith,
You are a great example of what it means to be intelligent, and openly gay. I enjoyed the C-Span program. Also,I had the pleasure of meeting you at the Outwrite book store, your book is terrific.

Thank you Keith for representing us in such a positive light.

Jamel
March 6 2005, 12:10AM

Guess Who, My argument is on a liberal agenda, but most conservative arguments are based on personal biases and lack primary,secondary or relevant evidence. I've studied various events in history and conservatives always developed an argument based on assumption and personal prejudices.

Today, some individuals defend crashing an airplane into a building or hating someone because of their religious. That's why I'm not surprise that people think it's ok to accept abuse and discrimination.

Leon Grant
March 7 2005, 3:51AM

@Jamel... Only ONE mental health organization is credible and not overtly political in dealing with true sexual diversity. The ACA has affirmed the right of individuals to change their sexual orientation if they desire. Its called self determination. I too believe it can be changed. Some people have said they have tried, but failed. All that proves is that YOU failed, however it does not make it the norm for everyone. Try a little tolerance, diversity of opinion and respect sometimes. Check out the following news release.
LGRANT

News Advisory for Feb. 3 /Christian Wire Service/ -- Recently controversy has erupted in Rockville, Maryland and Houston, Texas over billboard advertising concerning the right of people to seek change in homosexuality. Despite research to the contrary, critics such as the National Mental Health Association have suggested that such efforts are harmful, saying in their brochure, What Does Gay Mean?, "…attempts to 'cure' lesbians and gay men may help change sexual behavior temporarily but will also create emotional trauma."

However, a major mental health association, the American Counseling Association has gone on record as defending the right of people to determine whether or not they should seek change. Based in Alexandria, VA, the ACA along with its divisions represents the interests of counselors ranging from school to career counselors.

In reply to a question from Rev. D. L. Foster of Atlanta GA, Larry T. Freeman, MA, LPC, Manager, Ethics and Professional Standards for the ACA affirmed a client's right to self-determination as it relates to seeking counseling to change sexual identity. Pastor Foster asked the ACA in a letter: "I am interested to know if the ACA's Code of Ethics A.2.B is applicable to clients who seek to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual."

Mr. Freeman's verbatim response is as follows:

"In response to your inquiry below regarding whether Section A.2. Respecting Diversity. b. Respecting Differences; is applicable to clients who seek to change their sexual orientation. Yes, this code applies to any one who feels or perceives themselves as struggling with an issue that impacts negatively the quality and comfort of their daily life. The key word here is client, it is the client that approaches the counselor and gives consent to be treated. If one's sexual orientation is not an issue to them, it should not be an issue for the counselor. However, if it is, then the person(s) should have the freedom of choice to seek appropriate treatment for it; what ever the issue(s) may be. If what the client is experiencing is not in the training or education of the counselor a referral is suggested to the client, so they can receive the proper treatment that meets their counseling needs."

"As the past president of a division of the ACA, I am glad to see this professional body recognize a client's right to self-determination. Further, if a counselor is not equipped to help a person who wants to re-orient their sexuality, then an appropriate referral should be made," said Dr. Warren Throckmorton, past president of the American Mental Health Counselors Association and associate professor of psychology at Grove City College (PA).

"As a Pastor and one who has experienced satisfying change in my own sexual orientation, I welcome this wise and balanced response which truly values diversity and a client's right to self determination," said Rev. Foster.

He added, "It is gratifying to know that struggling men and women seeking changes to sexual feelings won't be relegated to second class status in the mental health field simply because they want to live happier, fulfilling lives."

Warren Throckmorton, PhD, ewthrockmorton@gcc.edu (724) 458-3787

Leon_grant
March 7 2005, 4:04AM

Donnie McClurkin's not the only one by a long shot. Here's news for the naysayers:

New Direction Ministries in Toronto, Canada, has collected and critiqued 31 clinical research studies, individual case studies and surveys on homosexuality and the possibility of change published in books or academic journals between 1952 and 2003#. The reviewers looked for reported changes, and supporting evidence for changes, in behavior, attractions, fantasy and self-identification by the subjects of the various studies and surveys. On their Web page, they summarize the collective results of 28 of the studies, and discuss the other three separately.

Collectively, the 28 studies present information on 2,252 subjects. The reviewers with the “Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” project selected for analysis only those subjects for whom enough data was available in the published reports to assign the subjects approximate before-and-after Kinsey sexual orientation scores of from 0 (exclusively heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual). They eliminated from consideration those subjects whose “before” scores were lower than 5 (where 5 is “predominantly homosexual”) or for whom insufficient information was available to assign any scores at all.

The reviewers found that using even this conservative before-and-after analysis, the published research clearly supports at least:

45 cases of people who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual (a 6 or 5 on the Kinsey scale) making a full shift in sexual orientation (to a 0 on the Kinsey scale).

287 cases of people who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual (a 6 or 5 on the Kinsey scale) making a partial shift in sexual orientation (to a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale).

86 cases of people who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual who transitioned to satisfying heterosexual relationships. (This third group of studies measured change by external behavior and reports of satisfaction, rather than reports of levels of attraction.)

Thus you have at least 418 cases in the published psychological literature of heterosexual orientation shift, according to the criteria used by the “Possibility of Change” project. However, the studies themselves actually report at least 563 subjects who experienced varying degrees of change toward increased heterosexuality. (The lower number is due to the project reviewers applying uniform criteria, years after the fact, to summarize more than 50 years of published studies, and thus excluding reports that didn’t fit their criteria for analysis.)

It is striking that these 31 studies, conducted over 50-some years, consistently show at least some evidence for sexual orientation shift, every time.

NARTH Survey of Reparative Therapy Clients#

In addition to the 28 studies summarized above, the “Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” project reports on three others. The first, conducted by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality in 1997, is a survey of 882 individuals who had been in reparative therapy or other intervention programs in an effort to effect a sexual-orientation change.

The anonymous survey found that, before counseling or therapy, 581 men and women out of the 882, or 66%, considered themselves exclusively or almost entirely homosexual (Kinsey 6 or 5). Another 188 (21%) considered themselves more homosexual than heterosexual (Kinsey 4) before treatment.

After treatment, only 111 (13%) considered themselves exclusively or almost entirely homosexual (Kinsey 6 or 5). That’s 470 fewer individuals who placed themselves in this category, post-treatment. And in fact, 282 individuals (32%) described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual after treatment (Kinsey 0 or 1).

Those surveyed also reported significant decreases in the frequency and intensity of their homosexual thoughts – from 63% indicating “very often” before treatment to 3% after treatment. The same was true of sexual behaviors with a partner: 30% had homosexual sex “very often” before treatment, while only 1% did so afterward.

Jamel
March 7 2005, 5:59AM

Leon, if there is professional evidence with adequate results in changing someone's sexual orientation, one hundred percent and people will forever be straight, I have no problem with that. But, that individual would have to completely lose SAME SEXUAL DESIRES. They just can't tell me to avoid it because then it become ignorant and unethical. That's not changing my sexual desires. For example, I live a positive celebate life, but I have same sex desires. Therefore, therapy cannot be only aimed at telling someone to avoid same sex. I avoid sex everyday. Grove City College is a conservative Christian school, which believe that homosexuality is a sin. Now, they are definitely one-sided or as my former African American history professor would argue, "they have an axe to grind." Question. Do people who want to change their sexual orientation know that some organized religions believed that homosexuality is part of God's creation and is not bad? Most folks don't know because, negative news spread like wildfires and conservatives have more financial power. I think the reason people want to change their sexual orientation is due to low self-esteem, which comes from a lot of prejudice in society, and many of those individuals turn against other homosexuals, instead of the core of the problem; prejudice in society. Therefore, in order for an individual to truly change his/her sexual orientation, they have to no longer have SAME SEX DESIRES because being told by someone to avoid it does not change an individual. Now, if an ex-gay person automatically responds by looking at a member of the same sex, who just walked in the same room, he/she ain't changed and they are only fooling themselves and trying to be like others.

Herb
March 7 2005, 8:19AM

Keith--What a great piece! I would like permission to use it on our website at The Black World Today, and also consider the possibility of linkage. And, by the way, Michael Eric Dyson could have mentioned the most prominent gay man in the c.r. movement, Bayard Rustin. Maybe an article about him would be useful. I gave him considerable attention in my book We Shall Overcome. Best, Herb

Latorial Faison
March 7 2005, 9:32AM

Hi Keith,

I read your article about Farrakhan, and I'm glad that you received enlightenment from the event. However, I'm simply responding to your attitude toward Bishop Eddie Long and other individuals like him, male or female. As a Christian leader, it's not a question of ministering about tolerance. We all know that Christ was tolerant, not pushy, but He was judgemental (to a certain extent). If He wasn't, then what did He need to come back as Savior of the world for. I think that pastors and ministers, the world over, are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to dealing with gays and lesbians. On the one hand, they are people just like everyone else dealing with different people in their families, communities and even in their churches; however, on the other hand, they have divine jobs to do. Would you like it if Bishop Eddie Long and others did not preach deliverance from homosexuality (something the Bible clearly does not speak well of), and perhaps when/if gays and lesbians get to Heaven or even Bishop Eddie Long, that they be held accountable for it? I think that somewhere along the line, everybody's communications have been twisted and turn to polarize ourselves from each other. Gays and lesbians are more "out" now, but that doesn't not mean that society or even the Bible has to be more accepting of it. The Bible has never condoned anything that it detested because the times changed. That's not how it works. I think for pastors to encourage gay and lesbian relationships is a sin against what they have been chosen to do. It has nothing to do with the individual, but everything to do with the acts. I think that people in Long's position have to take a stand on the issues that the Word in which they believe and preach speaks against, whether it be idolatry, killing, lying or any other forms of disobedience. Now, I won't get into the psychology of homosexuality, but as a believer, I believe that God never intended for any man or woman to sexually be involved with the same sex. However, I do know that homosexuality is a reality. I am not homophobic. But, if you ask me what I think and believe, based on the Word of God, you'll get what my spirit yields. You can't blame Eddie Long for being obedience under his calling. I'm sorry that most people in his position can't be as obedient and face the world. The black family and all families are in total disarray these days because of a major crisie taking place in the dynamics of the "family." If one of my sons one day reveals to me that he is a gay man, I will not love either of them any less, but I will not speak around an issue that I firmly believe has a real answer to make them feel whole in a way that I know will only pacify them. I think that members of the gay and lesbian community are asking too much when they ask our biblical leaders to be less judgemental. Tolerance is one thing, but the judgement of God is another. For He will be the last judge. I think that He has mercy on us all for every thing bad that we do, but we must first recognize our imperfections for what they are. Thanks for hearing me!

Latorial Faison, Poet & Author
www.latorialfaison.com

G.B.Mann
March 7 2005, 5:45PM

Congratulations, Keith.

Guess Who, get a life.

Jamel, stop wasting your engergy.

Find out the "other side" of so-called AIDS http://www.virusmyth.net

Wake up and LIVE (people)! B. Marley

G.B.Mann
March 7 2005, 5:47PM

energy

alicia
March 7 2005, 6:47PM

wow keith
this article made my day

congrats

thanks for repping us so well always

next time i want to see u
and one femme lesbian on the panel!
smile

peace
ab

alicia
March 7 2005, 6:49PM

ps:

tell jesse do not bother to flip flop and support me ever again!!!

he can save his adulterous "baby daddy" breath!

see more:
rainbow hypocrisies
at
www.geocities.com/ambwww/index.html

peace
ab

Stanley L. Walker
March 8 2005, 11:43AM

So far, once again no plausible explanations have been given for denying homosexuals their rights. This once again has proven to be more about excluding gays than defending marriage. I hear plenty of excuses, but so far no reasons.

Philip
March 9 2005, 11:00AM

To those who have commented and wondered..yes there is a large proportion of black gay congregates at Bishop Eddie Longs New Birth Missionary Baptist Church. I have interacted with and know many of them and from conversations on topics such as this an other gay issues, I have found them (as with many other black gays in churches)to be quite hypnotized, actually low self esteem puppets for the bigotry of heterosexuals agenda. No backbone for themselves persae..slaves on the masters plantation every Sunday getting a beat down and still giving master their money. Thinking God is in all of that so I must endure it for my salvations sake.."cause I's a sinna an ma'ssa go save me from my's gayness. Hummm...don't get me wrong though. I am not hating. Just overwhelmingliy perplexed and frustrated at the reality of this. I just wish more would stand up as I do and first research and search for truth. Find out the origins of things. Stop making man our God and give back to our community..black and gay respectivly. Stand up for who you are and stop hoping that someone else is going to do it for you. But then again...we love our comfort zones as blacks!

Guess Who??
March 9 2005, 7:11PM

Can someone provide me an answer to what notible contribution(s) to wider-society that the black homosexual agenda have given?

Personally speaking, I do not see any major contribution the gay black community provide to society, but we consistantly complain about equal rights. Everyone have equal individual rights and greatly excercise those rights. Currently, all of our young black men are taking more financial assistance from the state for healthcare in their fight for HIV. Many do not seek education and feel that wider-society should take care of them because they are a) gay, b) a minority, c) HIV+ or have AIDS and need treatment.

However, we hold our annual black pride events in different cities, and we all find some change in our pockets to make it to these events. We corner ourselves away claiming heterosexual prejudice, but we build our own little "city" with 50 feet high walls, spoon feeding the interactions with others outside our sexual orientation. Again, what MAJOR contribution are we making to society? Women, although complained and press for equal rights, gave back to society and stepped up in replacing the workforce during wars in the early part of the twentieth century. Oppressed women picked cotton, washed clothes, worked the local stores, helped build their neighborhoods, feed children who needed food, clothed the naked and poor and misfortunate, educated our children (Our parents) they best way they can, help build our black churches and still fought for rights! What have we done equal to that??

khalid
March 10 2005, 5:33AM

Keith, you're the man. It's the courage of men like you, Farrakhan, Dyson and Baldwin that keep me alive.

Stanley L. Walker
March 11 2005, 2:08PM

"Guess Who", are you suggesting that we only popped into existence 4 years ago or somesuch and were not apart of the earlier struggles to be rid of slavery and discrimination based upon race?

Thom
March 11 2005, 10:02PM

You know a funny thing might be that Eddie Long's tailor is from my hometown. The man is openly gay, discretely here, but openly gay. He made his daughters prom dress, and when he was married, made the wedding gown. So it always boggled my mind when I hear Long preach on the abomination of homosexuality. Is he preaching this same sermon while his pants are being hemmed?

Edward
March 11 2005, 11:25PM

Brother Keith--
I'm glad that you were a part of that dialogue. And I'm aware of Minister Farrakhan's homophobic remarks---but I've never heard him call for "death" to homosexuals. Honestly, I don't know of a leader more spiritually capable of embracing all black people than Minister Farrakhan.

I hope that you will be there.

Eva Young
March 14 2005, 4:37AM

I still have issues with Farrakan - if I recall correctly, he's made hateful comments about Jews and women also. That being said, this is powerful testimony, Keith - and I'm glad you were at this event. I wish I had seen it on CSPAN. It would have been nice to see some of the camera shots of Bishop Long - and his facial reactions.

I don't have a problem with Long working on behalf of the Bush campaign. I do think blacks - like gays - should be active in both political parties. That being said, I resent those who are trying to exploit anti-gay animus in the Black Churches for political gain.

It's also worth noting that some prominent Black conservatives have been consistently pro-gay. Ward Connerly - who is reviled in the civil rights community because of his stand against affirmative action - has historically been very supportive of gays. As Regent at the University of California, he took a leadership role in getting domestic partner benefits for University employees. He also publically opposed the anti-gay proposition 22.

I just linked to your testimony on Lloydletta's Nooz.

Eva Young
March 14 2005, 4:38AM

Powerful testimony Keith. I linked to it on my blog, Lloydletta.

jaymillionaire
March 15 2005, 3:54AM

Why the hell do we care about Farrahkhan? His group HATES us; Louis F. may try and put a nice face on hatred --but o what a virilant disgust it is.

jaymillionaire
March 15 2005, 3:59AM

Guess who says:

"Just as a murderer make mistakes so can the homosexual movement for "self-acceptance and freedom" could be in sociological error."

Jesus F_cking Christ.

Regan DuCasse
March 17 2005, 1:48PM

GUESS WHO, and JAMEL,
You have taken up a lot of space to make your comments.
Which are not new, and have been heard by the majority of gays and lesbians since the beginning of millenium.
And guess what?
Nothing GOOD has come of it.

When you talk about the changing of one's sexual orientation you leave out the threat/coercion factor.
No one is required to do anything dictated by another's religious choices.
It's against the teachings and mission of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
And NO heterosexual, in any Democracy has the right to determine how gay people are to live.
It's not YOUR call.
If we're all subject to equality, the legacy of equality is far more acceptable than that of SELECTIVE religious attitudes.
As long as our social standards of sexuality are inherently racist, sexist, homophobic and hypocritical, your words and their meaning are hollow and meaningless.

Regan DuCasse
March 17 2005, 1:56PM

JAMEL,
Sorry, my post was not meant to be directed at you.
I am a heterosexual, so OVER the bullshit that my fellow heterosexuals think they are entitled to toss at gay folks.
And the hets of faith, that use their piety as license enough to go unchallenged.
As IF, religion has no legacy of abuse, violence and irrational due process in the law.
And even arguing about whether or not sexual orienation is crazy.
The immutability of a characteristic is no protection from institutional and religious abuse.
Indeed, I'm still wondering why, why why in every sense of global incivility, are the lives of women and homosexuals so cheap?

Greentee
March 29 2005, 10:14AM

I attended the State of the Union address for the entire day. I am also a 10 year member of New Birth- not one time did Bishop Long seem bothered by the questions by the so-called black "leaders" who are nothing more than self appointed Negroes that are so bourgie and self-absorbed that their agenda is really about themselves. The same crap most of you say about preachers. How are they going to have contract with America when they can't even deliver it to the White House? Jesse Jackson? He IS a joke. Anything he says out his mouth is null and void to a large percentage of Blacks. Also, if you wondered why Tavis had the event at New Birth well Tavis and Bishop are frat brothers - trust me I am greek- these relationships run deep. Think 1911. Bishop Long wasn't fazed by leadership that is not leading anyone. Look at the Million Man March.......and where are we now?

The March lead by New Birth in Jaunary was not against gay people. Period. There were other points on the agenda of the march, but for some reason some media starved gay people and the media itself wanted to make this into the "I hate gays" show. I was ticked because all the media did was waste time on the gay crap and totally ignore the points about changes in education, economic empowerment for minorities,etc. Some Gay people seem to want everything to be about them. Some are extremely attention starved and and then have the nerve to compare their struggle in society to the Civil Rights movement....Right. As a black female this is a slap in the face.
Homosexuality is a sin. Not the person but the act and feelings. There was a reason God created Adam and Eve. Stop trying to make heterosexuals feel like they are wrong for wanting to follow the word of God.
Please read your "whole" bible. I didn't say this - the Lord did. If I am accountable for any sins as a heterosexual what makes you think that you are not? Are you serious?
Well, Bishop Long like any pastor is responsible to God first to follow his Word. I would not want to be a parishioner of a Pastor that did not acknowledge the "whole" bible. Homosexuality like a slew of other sins are listed in the bible more than once, who is Bishop Long to bypass this to make people happy but upsetting God. He is accountable to God for every person that sits in New Birth. That is a heavy responsibility that I would not even want. Also, to the person questioning his tailor's sexuality, Do you know if this man is not asking God to deliver him from what he is dealing with"? Right..I didn't think you did. And should Bishop be anointing him with oil every time he hems his pants? Get real. Also Long never told any of the members to vote for a particular candidate- all he said was please exercise your right to vote.

I have plenty of gay guy friends that I love dearly and respect, but I did not agree with their lifestyles. Many are them are in so much pain that the lifestyle. I pray for them like I pray for myself- that they will be delivered from their sins like I want to be delivered from mine. But, I don't beat them over the head and bash them and that is not what New Birth has EVER done. We still have many gay people that attend our church and will continue to because the truth is being brought forth.
It seems really stupid to question a pastor about following the word of God. He is a PASTOR! Not the president. I am not a Bush fan and didn't and won't vote for him but I do agree that there should be a ban on gay marriage.

Greentee
March 30 2005, 3:09PM

Just a further note: Keith, Please do not take Farrakhan's kindness to mean that he is opening the door to the mosque to welcome all gays. Please.
The day we ( New Birth) were out marching one.. block of downtown Atlanta was completely lined with the Nation of Islam brothas cheering us on and telling us that they were proud of us for taking a stand. They even showed some of them on the news.

Don't flatter yourself to think that Farrakhan wants to be your best friend. He was probably just being kind.