Was Bill Cosby Right?

RICKEY JOHNSON
May 24 2004, 12:22PM

I AM A LITTLE TAKEN BACK THAT MR. COSBY COULD BE SO SEVERE IN HIS ANALYSIS. YES I AGREE ON THE SNEAKER ISSUE IN THE POOR FAMILIES. BUT IT IS OBVIOUS HE HAS FORGOTTEN WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO PEOPLE OF COLOR WITH THE STRUGGLES THAT WE ENDURE REGARDELSS OF OUR POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE FOCUS ON BEING A PART OF MAINSTREAM SOCIETY. I DO NOT AGREE ON THE FORMAT OF THE NEW FILM SOUL PLANE BUT MR. COSBY NEEDS TO LOOK IN HIS ARCHIVE OF FILMS AND HE BECAME WHO HE IS TODAY BY DOING THE SAME FILMS HE CRITIIQUE. I AM ASHAMED AT HIS LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUE EVEN IF IT IS TRUE BUT TO JUDGE A GROUP BASED ON NON ACOMPLISHMENTS BECAUSE INDIVIDUALS DO NOT HAVE A SENSE OF ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT THE WAY TO CHANGE, AND CONSIDERING HE IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WHEN HE CHEATED ON HIS FAMILY/WIFE, WHO DID HE CHEAT WITH, A WHITE WOMAN. SO WHO IS HE TO JUDGE WHEN HIS LAUDNDRY OF ETHICAL CHOICE AND JUDGEMENT IS NOT MUCH BETTER. IF THE FOUNDATION OF CHANGE FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR IS IN THE FAMILY THEN HE CAN'T JUDGE IF HE CHOSE TO SATISFY HIS LUST THAN STAND BY HIS FAMILY AS HE SO INDICATE THAT WE MUST DO. SO MR. COSBY SHOULD CONSIDER EVERYTHING INVOLVED AND NOT THE END RESULT THAT IS OBVIOUS. WE ARE LIVING DIFFERENT TIMES WITH THE MEDIA AND ADVERTISEMENT AND THE VENDORS THAT FILL THE POOR COMMUNITITIES SO DON'T PUT THE PEOPLE DOWN BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING BAD CHOICES. THAT IS JUST NOT THE WAY SINCE THE TIMES THAT I CAME FROM THERE WAS THE NEIGHBORHOOD YOUTH CORP. JOBS AND THE P.A.L. AND FREE TUITION. THERE ARE MANY YOUTHS OF COLOR THAT WOULD BE WILLING TO WORK BUT THE JOBS ARE LIMITED AND MANY WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION BUT EDUCATION COST ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH EVEN IN THE COMMUNITY COLLEGES SO, FIND ANOTHER WAY MR. COSBY TO ADREESS THIS THAN TO BE SO HEARTLESS.

Ra
May 24 2004, 1:08PM

As painful as the truth may sound, I would have to agree with Bill Cosby. Actually, it's in the interest of the "poverty pimps" and apologists for our failures to criticize Mr. Cosby. Some of these people would be out of a job if they said that poor people need to get their act together (and by the way, I'm not a Republican). Bill Cosby has given millions to black colleges and other black causes, and I doubt that those who would criticize him have anything to contribute except a politically correct tired rhetoric.

bklynd
May 24 2004, 1:25PM

I agree that the answer is somewhere in the middle, but I think it is about time somebody said something to make black folk in America wake up. Consider this:

1. Black women have higher rates of obesity and obesity related illnesses, yet we persist in thinking we're just BBW (big, beautiful women) and won't make any attempt to lose just a little weight to improve our health. And can someone please tell these sisters that available in your size does NOT mean suitable for your size -- I say that as a woman who lost more than 70 pounds without major dieting or surgery.

2. Teen pregnancy continues to be a huge problem in the black community, and we don't want to take the time to talk to our kids about birth control (never mind safe sex to prevent disease transmission). And why is it okay for my 13 year old daughter to wear thong panties under low-slung jeans and wonder why she turns up pregnant at 15?

3. Hardcore rap is the fastest growing genre of music, rife with references to casual sex, excessive drug and alcohol use - a teenager has a hit song mentioning "everyone in the club gettin' tipsy" is ok?

4. You live in the projects, collect welfare or social security because you have asthma (a totally manageable condition, and not one that would prevent you from working -- it's not like you need a lot of lung power to be a receptionist), but you drive a luxury car or SUV or expect to be able to.

5. You won't shop at a better supermarket so you can have proper nutrition because the prices are slightly higher than the corner store (can we PLEASE stop calling colored sugar water juice?).

6. You don't see many fat Chinese restaurant owners or workers because they sell -- they don't eat -- the fat and salt-laden 3 chicken wings and fried rice special that some of our people eat 2 and 3 times a day. Go to the same bulletproof-windowed Chinese take-out joint and watch the workers on their dinner break. They're eating steamed rice and vegetabels, with a little meat or tofu in broth.

7. Parents will kill themselves to purchase a game system for their kids for Christmas, but are stunned when the teacher says the kid can't read properly or won't sit still in class.

8. Children as young as 2 can recite the lyrics to 50 Cent songs, but can't recite the alphabet. Kids in elementary school can teach you how to get to the most advanced levels in a video game, but can't tell you their address and phone number.

9. Teenagers refuse to go to school to learn something so they can make real money, but expect to live in a mansion, wear expensive clothes, drive a luxury car or SUV, without any more education than a GED.

10. Black people refuse to support a clean, wholesome movie with little or no profanity (Kingdom Come), a well-told intelligent portrayal of a black family (Once When We Were Colored), or a slave tale that puts blacks in a positive light (Amistad), but clownin', goof-off, shuckin' and jivin', bass thumpin, big booty bumpin, dumb-ass, cheap liquor drinkin' chronic-smokin movies like Soul Plane will make a mint. The difference between blaxploitation movies in the seventies and just plain exploitation moveis today is slim, but at least back then they started with blacks wanting to make movies about blacks because there wasn't anything available that told our story, and if there was, the profits went to white Hollywood pockets. There was an evolution in the quality of stories, particularly with pioneer moviemaking from Spike Lee, but because we wouldn't continue to support them, the money machine went back to the clownin' formula and cleaned up. Thus, the new blaxplotation genre began.

BONUS: We're quick to blame everyone and everything else (raciscm, classism, poverty) for our sorry state of affairs, but never once consider the number one reason why we're seen as one evolutionary step above monkeys: CHOICE.

When we choose to take matters into our own hands; we go to the library or the internet to learn if our teachers aren't teaching us or our children; we research which careers will be the most lucrative in the long term and what it takes to have them; we listen to the reports and start taking seriously the many threats to our health (cancer, diabetes, heart disease) and actually do something about it; we stop using "stuff" to make ourselves feel better (clothes, cars, jewelry, sex, drugs, alcohol), then Bill Cosby won't be seen as such a villain. He's not perfect, and no one else is, but somebody had to tell the truth, and thank God he did.

Malik Stone
May 24 2004, 1:31PM

You know, we as African Americans find it hard to accept the truth about ourselves at times. Especially when it comes from someone within our own community. But I think it would be more of crime if we were not to commment on what has been painfully obvious for quite sometime. Now that Mr. Cosby has put it out there so to speak, what do we now do with it, other than trying to fault him for speaking the truth?
You have to keep in mind the experiences for blacks folks who understand the importance of knowing how to play the game of life is quite different for those exist within a urban environment where bad habits and low self-esteem has been passed down from generation to generation. I believe Mr. Cosby is right in calling parents on their (stuff). But in trying to tackle this issue, we must access what the problem is. Also, please keep in mind, that these parents picked up habits from their environment and this cycle just continues to be repeated over and over again.

Troy
May 24 2004, 1:32PM

Bill Cosby for President!

cmoney
May 24 2004, 1:51PM

Yes, Bill Cosby is right. He is an imperfect messenger, as we all are. How many of those kids and parents learned their poor English from watching the Cosby Kids cartoon? (Remember Dumb Donald!?). But the truth is the truth. We have a problem in our community. We (collectively) are abysmal as parents. Even well off parents do not emphasize good manners and the importance of education. Ask any teacher who teaches African-American kids and they will tell you that African-American parents will never show up for parent-teacher conferences, but will be the first to curse out the teacher when their kid is failed or put out of school for disciplinary problems. Others on this site have already listed several areas of concern that I agree with. I know from personal experience the result of poor parenting (House burglary that was obviously carried out by young people, considering what was stolen). Cosby has only said what I have been saying and hearing for years in the African-American community. Poor people have enough problems without having to deal with crime and self destruction. I wouldn't have chosen Cosby's words or the forum he chose, but we shouldn't shoot the messenger just because he is saying what we don't want to acknowledge publicly. We ought to listen and do something to correct the problem.

aquafemme2003
May 24 2004, 1:53PM

I applaud Keith for this on point analysis. Definitely, black people will openly complain about our "lesser elements" in private, but among whites, it's an unspoken rule that everything is due to racism. I for one never play the race card. Frankly, I beleive class is the issue most of the time. That's not to say bigotry isn't alive and well, but at the end of the day, I still say classism is the major player. I think that's what smacks of self righteousness in Mr. Cosby's remarks: They don't seem designed to help. THey don't even seem constructively critical. They seem harsh and bitter and ill-timed and based more on his disdain for lower class people than anything else. It doesn't help that he has a history of driving an upper middle class agenda down the throats of all who will hear it.

Do I agree with what he said? Wholeheartedly. Do I think he could have chosen a better time and place to state the obvious? Absolutely. Of course, and I say this with full expectation of outcry, the NAACP seems to have a hand in "poverty pimping" so it's no surprise to me that Mr. Mfume would be stone faced after such remarks; they undermine the NAACPS's agenda - which, unfortunately, seems to be ensuring black folk are never at fault. I'm just talking out of my ass here, but I think I'm on to something.

Finally, let me just say that we are a society of people who like to complain and blame. It's always somebody's fault. The previous poster gave an example that was right on: everybody wants to lose 50 lbs. but they don't want to do the basic, BARE MINIMUM stuff to accomplish that. Replace that cookie with an apple? Nope. I'd rather blame the 3 kids I had 15 years ago. Go to a library and use the internet, since I can't afford to have it at home? Nope. I'd rather just fail my courses and blame racism. We all complain and blame on some level. It just that some of us take it to a NEW level.

Troy
May 24 2004, 2:08PM

Speaking of getting that education....
Edward P. Jones author of the book, The Known World will be at Hue-man Bookstore off of 125th Street in harlem, New York City. He will be there from 6 p.m. to 8 signing books and frankly worth seeing and being there; a great writer, soon to be Pulitzer Prize winner and the book unravels some history and whys to the here and now. Worth it, worth it, worth it.

(we must get there people, you and I, even it takes Mr. Jello to call us up on it and say it's time!)

David
May 24 2004, 2:12PM

Aquafemme, thank you for pointing out classism as today's most potent tool for discrimination.

I also agree with Bill Cosby but disagree with his lack of diplomacy. He should have phrased his critique better – but then, would it have had induced the same widespread reaction?

I attended high school in a British system and I was beyond shocked when an African American told me to my face that I am not black because I speak correct English. We were both college sophomores at that time!

I was thrown into abject sorrow when I heard that one of my classmates had stolen a textbook from the college bookstore because he couldn't afford to pay. My sorrow lasted until I saw him the next day in a pair of brand new timberland boots and a Sean John shirt to-match. [Maybe he stole those too, but I doubt it.]

Clearly a large part of the African American community is embracing the wrong set of values. It's high time someone pointed it out.

JIM
May 24 2004, 2:18PM

I won't comment about Mr. Cosby's words because (1) I haven't read the entire speech and know too well how lines can be taken out of context, and (2) I'm white and don't have an insider's perspective on this issue. But I do think the African American community should have seen this coming: don't you remember the way Bill tore into Wanda Sykes for not "speaking English" at that awards ceremony last year?

Troy
May 24 2004, 2:24PM

In another state where I have property and go to from time to time, here's another take on the state of things....50 cents the rap or hip hop artist buys Mike Tysons' house in Hrtford, Connecticut and now sits on the city council in Hartford and, actually now, people up there are listening to him and taking him very serious, was it about his money or his education or something else? True story. What say you fellow commentors, what BE next??

alicia
May 24 2004, 2:37PM

yes

he was absolutely correct

as a veteran educator
i watch increasingly younger amoral het parents
raise children like puppies/weeds

they have no involvement or interest in their educations

many kids are actually coached by these parents to be "crazy" at school etc...to garner mental disability checks/free behavior medications etc

there are many brilliant african american parents and students...many are gifted and admirably reared by superior parents

but what bill cosby stated was true for what is increasingly becoming a doomed norm rather than
an exception!

Da D.L. Crib
May 24 2004, 2:38PM

As I commented in my post:
http://www.geocities.com/blkngga/index.html

I too agree with a lot of what Mr. Crosby said, but as I read Mr. Boykin's article I became a little more frustrated with his remarks. He was after all, preaching to the converted. I wonder what he expects to be done in the wake of his remarks? Are those mothers suddenly going to buy "hooked on phonics?"

Since Mr. Cosby has taken it upon himself to point out the faults, now where is a solution? No it does not have to involve money. I want to see him (since he has a doctorate in education) propose a plan of attacking this issue. He started this by targeting a problem, now what???

Leonardo da vinci E.
May 24 2004, 2:58PM

American Cosby has a right to apply his "freedom" in the use of his speech:Notice that his opinion does not have any direct effect upon harming anyone (he actually wishes to inspire them towards better interactions in their own communities) across the nation.I would say that in reality there is no such thing as free speech,but the laws create as effect that there is really only the responsible use of speech which is left alone(no matter how controversial)right up to the moment it is apparent THAT little free speech has caused a dire consequence upon the life and right of way of your neighbor.But notice how those who did not agree with him did not behave like freedom loving beings...they immediately called for the "boycott" as a means to cause a "dire" affectation against Cosby.They intended to inspire others to damage his ability to even live (and in a free society).Such human beings are not seeking justice or fairness...they are seeking power and the right to exercise the ultimate power in fascism,and by their trivial complaints they hope to gain credibility from the masses and the power contained there-in

Christy
May 24 2004, 3:58PM

Mr Cosby couldn't have been more right. Someone had to turn the "mirror" around for us to realize the condition of some of our people.

Good job Mr Cosby

BD
May 24 2004, 4:18PM

I agree with Bill 100%. We need to take responsibility for the things we are doing to ourselves. Yeah, white folks are not in our corner, but so what. The money we waste on material things could go for the education of our children. And these parents need to be parents. I can't believe that people let their children listen to some of this garbage that these artistes are putting out.

chris williams
May 24 2004, 4:36PM

i agree with cosby,500$ invested in a savings bond can generate 50' to 500k in 30 years! as a former banker a lot of my former customers lack any serious knowledge of money matters!cosby it seems has issued a challenge to the black leaders at this venue,if not him then whom,they seem to be afraid to say the truth to our people,and what you don't know will hurt you!I also and smart enough to know that racist systems are well entrenched in the US,and we're not to blame for that but we are to blame for not doing anything about it so get up to bat and lets knock out a homer!

Kola Boof
May 24 2004, 4:54PM

Well, everything Bill Cosby was "part" of the TRUTH...and I really didn't think it was meanspirited, I think he said it from a place of love.

I've always felt that replacing the civil rights/black power movements with the Hip Hop movement was a death knell for black Americans.

Still...I must say....that I've always (and continue) to have more respect for the working poor so called "ghetto" blacks than I do for the upper class and middle class black Americans.

And if we look at more "parts" of the truth....we will find that the middle class blacks are destroying and selling out our people/race/group in far more dangerous and multiple ways than the poor blacks are.

As for dirty laundry...when will we stop caring what white people think? Who gives a shit!? I'm so sick of that "dirty laundry" b.s. EVERYBODY KNOWS what goes on with blacks. There is no black community, no private sector in America. Please.

Lastly...If black men could arrest their culture of SEXISM long enough to stop harping on the percentages of what "black MALES" are doing/facing....and start to give a damn about the little black girls that give birth to black males....then we might begin to get somewhere.

Black women in America have the lowest self-esteems of any human beings I've seen on earth.

How can strong sons and healthy communities be born from a class of single women who've been abandonded, told daily by the media that they're ugly and worthless--unloved by anyone, totally disenfranchised.

But all we keep hearing is...50% of black MALES this and 8% of black MALES that.

Sexism and the CHRONIC devaluation of black females in ALL black cultures...remains the single biggest ELEPHANT in the room...and continues to produce an unhealthy subculture...BY DESIGN.

My experience has been that black men are raised up to only care about themselves--"every man for himself"--and everyone in our culture, both male and female, coddle and obsess over the males while the females are left UNDEVELOPED.

These undeveloped females are the black majority. They live in a white society that HATES them for being black...and they live in a black society that HATES them for being black.

They are not valued, therefore they have an outlook on life that doesn't value anything--and oftentimes, that outlook is all they have to pass on to their children (who also are taught by middle class Cosby-like folks to hate them).

I wish that middle class and upper class blacks would stop using that word "ghetto" in such a derogatory manner. They look down their noses and quip, "Oh, that's so ghetto". Which is a loaded, prejudiced, I've-joined-the-establishment comment if ever there was one.

Whether anyone likes it or not....these POOR black folks have the anger and rage in them to kill.

We should start caring about that and reach out to them, attempt to empower them with self esteem--because when we reach out to them, we reach out to ourselves.

RICKEY JOHNSON
May 24 2004, 5:30PM

I FORGOT TO MENTION IN MY EARLIER COMMENTS THAT I DO SUPPORT MR. COSBY'S POINT OF VIEW ON THE EXPRESSION OF ENGLISH, BUT STRONGLY FEEL HE SHOULD BE A LITTLE MORE COMPASSIONATE BECAUSE OF WHERE THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN INITIATED IN OUR COMMUNITY AND THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES FROM FAMILY TO FAMILY OF COLOR CONSIDERING THEIR LIVING AND EDUCATIONAL ENVIRONMENTS.

Black Nova
May 24 2004, 5:54PM

Cosby said what he said because he was frustrated. If he'd been gentle in his remarks, it might not have sparked the debate. Maybe this is the type of dialogue we need in order to correct the problem. Furthermore, if his statements clash with his lovable, huggable persona, all the better. If someone like Armstrong Williams had said this (and hasn't he for a while?) no one would've paid any attention. Regardless of his delivery, this is definitely something that needs to be looked at.

ronn
May 24 2004, 6:15PM

It's more a matter of if Cos was truthful: why single out only "low class" BLACKS? I've seen that behavior in every racial group and among ALL classes. What excuse does he give for having a daughter who's a recovering drug addict and another who's a convicted felon because he was not a responsible father? He had tens of millions at his disposal, speaks "proper" english and has advanced degrees. Yet his own flesh and blood mirrors the behavior of the very "low class" Blacks he showed disdain for.

Now he's complaining about not having all of his words aired and having many of them taken out of context. What the hell did he expect. Faux News et al jumped on his shit like white on rice. And they're Black lawn jockeys gleefully joined in the chorus of hate for "low class" Blacks.

I'd rather take advice from the old lady at the Brooklyn Museum subway stop who I've never met before than Dr. Cosby. At least I know where she's coming from.

cassaura
May 24 2004, 6:20PM

I don't agree with Mr. Cosby. And I feel the need to go further and
apologize to those his comments must have truly hurt and offended. Who
probably once laughed at his jokes, only now to be the butt of them....
truly sad.
How easy it is to stand "in" the promised land and shout down to those
who through ignorance or poverty, have yet to see the dream, and can
only experience it though those $500 tennis shoes.
Maybe they see that Mr/Ms educated can speak with socialese, but are
still at this very moment unemployed!! Maybe those tennis shoes were for
their dream of the next Micheal Jordan..
I for one love the English language and words, in all of its idioms. But
if I had to make a living, or hold a conversation speaking math, I might
hide on a corner too.
The language that frightens me more is.. "These, and those people".
I am also thankful to an active mother.. and teachers who would..
"pull my little blacka__" aside and whisper in my ear. To get it
together. They were the loudest 'whispers' I've ever heard.

LGrant
May 24 2004, 6:25PM

We needed that whoopin. No time outs or counting to 3. We needed that.

Mee
May 24 2004, 7:03PM

Bill cosby said it right! We blacks have to start thinking outside the box. The racism card have been milked dry( Spiken Lee even wrote about it in his movie "25th Hour "). I do hear some blacks in my college cry that the science professor gave them a C because they are not white. These same kids don't study or even come to class regularly and they except to pass?? but their cell phone is with them always.We blacks should learn something from the Jews-they have been prosecuted for hundreds of centuries even before black slavery yet whenever they are given opportunity to rise up they embrace quickly. Whereever they go they make sure that they occupy the top positions in school, college, banks, Hollywood, World bank , hospital , writers Nobel Prize etc AND they also help their fellow jews when they have made it on top. They do so that they can prove to the world that they are worth something and not "low lives". That is something we blacks should learn. But again how can you help someone if they are comfortable in the self-pity compartment? Kola Boof mentioned something about low self-esteem for black women. While that is true so also have other ethnic women such as the eastern european women in the early 1900s , chinese and native american women all been ascribed to loathe. In fact the only standard beauty that was recognized was Anglo-Saxon(western europe) anything else is by the way side and not "white". Misery Loves Company. Some people enjoy when other feel sorry for them. If your English(I have a slight british accent) is well-phrased and versed some blacks(in high school and some colleges) will immediately call you "gay"(it's true i have been called that). We have to move on people . Bill Cosby can't do it alone. We should all try and be role models for our race before we become extinct.Extinct?? Yes, we may dissolve ourselves before the white man does. If we look around we may have already started .For example black women have the highest level of abortion in the country( i'm not pro-life or anything) even though blacks are only 10 percent of the total population. This should give us something to think about.

iago
May 24 2004, 7:19PM

Ronn and Cassaura, thank you and Amen! How easy it is to stand in the “promised land” and look across and down in judgement. Maybe DR. COSBY spoke some truths, but shame on the good DR. for not recognizing the myriad causes that contribute plight of poor Black communities. Frustration is no excuse for these aggressive remarks. I too get frustrated from time to time, I’m sure we all do, but those of us knowledgeable enough to be so ought to rise above our frustration and seek out solutions. DR. COSBY should be talking to his Black peers in entertainment, those who perpetuate the images that poor people see and attempt to emulate. We all know, to a large degree poor people want to be the superstars they see on television. And, after all, if these superstar/role model entertainers have made it and these are the images they portray, maybe that is what I need to do to "make it."

And please, let us understand that we all will not get out of the inner cities and we will not all "make it." Although we all should strive to, it just is not realistic to believe somehow we all can or will rise above our circumstances. We are no different that our poor white, latino, or other ethnic class counterparts. The media try to paint us as some anomaly. We are not! Don’t believe the hype, my people, don’t believe the hype.

I am very disappointed in Dr. Cosby. He should know better.

P.S. Thank God for Black Talk! When I get out of my lily-white world of work, I can’t wait to get to where my homies be at.

Miss
May 24 2004, 8:00PM

I agree with Mr. Cosby for the most part. I spent my youth in the inner city and can attest to what he's describing. Racism or no, once an intelligent person reaches adult age they should take responsiblity for their own attitudes and at the least their behavior. I hope more respectable Black celebrities start speaking out the way he has, we need this wake-up call. What I also find interesting is that some people are demanding a boycott of Cosby for his well-meaning criticism, but where are the demands to boycott these rappers who have made careers out of "airing Black people's dirty laundry" and doing much more harm to our community as a result?

eliott morst
May 24 2004, 8:22PM

i totally agree with cosby.
this is the hard truth.
he is the perfect person to say this publicly.
also, the response of the crowd he spoke this to is troubling.
IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE FUNNY.
this is very serious.
WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY NOW.
OR ELSE?????????????????????????????????????????

Cliff
May 24 2004, 9:55PM

Unfortunately Cosby was right on-point. Sometimes I feel so ashmed of my people. I work at a global accounting/consulting firm that is quite conservative. The firm is constantly trying to increase the number of minorities hired each year. Every year, some of the black candidates they hire are an embarrassment. They come to work dressed as though they are headed straight to the club. Wearing hair styles that were probably appropriate when they were in school but are hardly appropriate in a professional setting. Telling people what they will and will not do (despite the fact that they chose to work for the firm and should have fully understood what was expected of them). Can tell you what happened at the club the other night but hadn't even started to study for their CPA exam. Will curse someone out if they give them a bad evaluation. Ready to claim racism at the drop of a dime. But what's more frustrating is that when some of us try and talk to them about their behaviour or dress, they want to clown us. "oh yall just trying to be like them" or "yall ain't nothing but uncle tom niggas".
This victimization syndrome we suffer from has got to stop. Yes, racism exists but that's not the only thing that's keeping us from being as successful as we should be. And it's about time someone has said it out loud and and out in the open....because obviously the closed-door discussions haven't helped. It's time we focus on updating the NAACP. The racism of yesterday is not the same racism of today. The lack of opportunity of yesterday is different from the struggles we deal with today. And yet the black civil rights organization are still using those same tactics that may have brought the color barrier down but they are no longer effective.

Laura
May 25 2004, 12:33AM

Cosby was right on the surface, but that's about it. Our communities have some serious problems that we need to deal with, but I find this scolding somewhat hard to accept from a multimillionaire.

So far I haven't found the text or transcript of his speech, but there have been several references to a remark he made about our people getting shot by cops...

The Daily News quoted it as, "Turning to criminal justice, he said, 'These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, saying, "The cops shouldn't have shot him." What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?'"

Um...maybe...he was going to...BUY IT...?

Hopefully he isn't really saying Black lives are worth some pound cake (or in the real life case of Latasha Harlins, an 80 cent bottle of orange juice). But I don't see the point in making a joke out of the realities of racial profiling.

Some elements of our communities are screwed up. So are elements of the larger society we are in. Why not talk about both?

JamilMD
May 25 2004, 1:23AM

Cassura Iago and Ronn, I am so sorry that you think that his comments were harsh but the realities are that many poor blacks remain poor because of their own mistakes and lack of drive. what black family do you know that does not have a member that addicted . I think it is highly unfair to bring that up however it parallels this arguement. people who get addicted to what ever drug usually become so after making poor choices. for the cast majority of people heroin addiction is not an issue because tey have made the choice to never use heroin.

We as a people make choice as to what is important and what we want. As a former teacher I can not tellyou how many times I have had kids who did not do their assignments or could not remember lessons but could remeber the latest song or the talk about he latest cars or what have you. It is indeed about choices. No not everyone in the inner city will make it out.

People talk about racism and I know only too well the evil face of racism but I think that there is only so much that you can blame on it. I have seen some kids go into store and intimidate the proprietors al in the name of fun or who think its cool to go into a building scowing because that conteneance is on the face of most rappers thinin its cool and either do not understand or do not care that white america is fearful of them and fear begets violence. They are afraid enough of us without us adding fat to the fire.

I have heard the debate for and against "ebonics" as a viable languge form and I will only say this. Just like the hispanics and other ethnicities who live in the US, the vast majority learn how to speak english or they are unemployable unless you work within that community. I am sorry that you would be fearful to speak the language of mmathematics if that wre the case but to survive you would learn it. the fact that you would be afraid to try and run to hide on a corner goes back to good and bad choices.

As for the 400 dollar shoes and your bills cannot be paid that is simply ridiculous. Black people as a whole are consumers and we in our atempt to obtain the "dream of success" poput waaaaaay too much empahsis on owning things . Success is not about that. It is about doing somethng productive and giving back when you are doing this those things willcome . Maybe to help te dream of a future basketball player youshould buy him keds and if he really wants the more expensive ones he will be inspired to work harder. Supporting the dreams of your children does not mean just financial. How about belicving your kid can succeeed if he has the determination and wherewithall to push forward. Unfortunately support to many just means spending money not spending time which by far more germane.

AS for the police violence it does seem aimed at minority males and yes there is racial profiling been there myself. But then again you need to ask yourself if you know it happens why put yourself in situations that can exacerbate it. If you get pulled over by the cops don't run!! don't drive off. Don't keep your hands in your pocket. Seems like commonsense but damn some folk don't get it.

I will conceed that the media skews pretty much everything and we are made out to be monsters. Our misbhaviors are highlighted while our acheivments are ignored. Hollywood does not help soul plane/Friday does not help it only seem to reinfornce stereotypes.

Yeah Bill may be somewhat out of touch with the average black man but he was not always privledged. And just for thse of you who do not know, poor does not = a black culture it is a plight. illiteracy and not speking english well when it counts is a hinderence we can ill afford. Speaking well does not equal selling out or being an Uncle Tom.

DBFEB
May 25 2004, 2:34AM

I agree with what Bill Cosby said and I agree with the way he said it. As Black people we tend to make too many excuses. The point of the matter is that we will never get along in this country if we continue to ignore education. It's that simple.

Regan DuCasse
May 25 2004, 9:30AM

Mr. Cosby was RIGHT ON the money!
His statements require no interpretation. We know he was talking about the VAST majority of young black men and women who have children irresponsibly, became addicted or diseased and then say 'THE SYSTEM' did it!
The 'system' didn't make them pregnant or REFUSE them an education.
It's not 'the system' that finds black people unaware, but black folks feeding their own into it.
Poverty is relative, but you guarantee your chances of being stuck in it if you have kids before a gainful skill. Then leave the kids in poverty to be raised in conditions in some places not fit for a dog.
Sure, there is SOME racism, but not 24/7.
The racism experienced these days is literally anecdotal, NOT institutional.
If you suspect it at all, there is redress in the law.
A well dressed, clean cut, well spoken brother CAN go anywhere he wants, rather than a foul mouthed, ghetto fabulous on.
That's the RULES for ANYONE who expects success.
Even a white guy with tattoos and a foul mouth and greasy clothes won't go far either.
Trash is trash.
My grandmother and grandfather survived the Great Depression and Jim Crow.
They emerged from this experience a lady and a gentleman. You could eat from my grandmother's floors.
My father survived a poverty stricken childhood where he didn't even get glasses until he served in the segregated army during World War 2.
Young people these days got no self respect, self restraint or self motivation.
Blacks need it MOST of all to get somewhere!

aquafemme2003
May 25 2004, 10:43AM

I think a lot of very good points have been made here. For one, I agree with the idea that as a whole, alot of black parents are not raising their kids - they're simply keeping them fed, dressed and alive. That doesn't speak as to what's going on in their head. While on some superficial, lovey dovey level, it might seem feasible that a lower income person might see a pair of Jordans as their personal "dream", let's snap back to reality: when you can't afford to have the Internet or some other resource that would equate one foot on the road out of poverty, shoes need to be the last thing on your mind. Or at least get some shoes that are sensible - haven't you ever noticed that while more middle class blacks spend moderate amounts on clothes/shoes, the poorer the person, the more expensive their kicks? That's symptomatic. IN a class I took once a teacher put out a theory that rings true. Black people long had no control over their basic destiny INCLUDING what they wore or owned. In the class, the professor expounded to say that now we see a desire to "own" appearance. That's why, in my mind, blacks are so damn materialistic. Combine that with a mentalitiy that says "you'll never be legit but you can look legit" and you get a person who can't pay rent but has $500 braids.
Definitely there is an entire mentality issue that needs to be addressed here. Lower income blacks, by and large, aren't thinking on their feet. They are short sighted. I could go on and on and ON about all of the things many posters have mentioned: the association of talking proper with being "white"; the unspoken rule of when in doubt, play the race card; etc. etc.
But the main thing we need to note is this: Who's debating the issue? Us - largely college educated people who are taking the time to not only read a news/culture oriented site, but branch off and read the original Cosby comments. We're debating an issue that doesn't directly involve us. The folks that should be having this conversation are where? At Footlocker. There's your problem right there.
Educated, upper class blacks will stay upper class and educated because they're upper class and educated enough to put their priorities in order. Lower income, uneducated blacks, on the other hand, will remain lower income, uneducated blacks. And of course, the topic of countless conversations among upper class, educated blacks. It's almost funny.

Jeffrey
May 25 2004, 10:49AM

While I agree that personl responsibility is impratnt and the lack of ia a valid critique. I do not agree, however, that information that is genrally common-knowledge amongst black folks all of sudden needs to be apart of public media ammunition. I, by no means, believe in a politics of respectability--which means that we try to hold some sterilized image of blakc poeple---but, I do beleiev in weighibng the cost of public rhetoric. Who does Cosby serve, sitting at the middle-upper class event with the NAACP, by speaking these words? Sounds like an old case of making "ourseleves" feel better, at the sake of another's pain or poverty. This is the tendency that many black folks have fallen into, at the guide of white christianity and whiteness, more genrally. Moral superiority, is what its calls--and this, if you ask me, has been a major killer in our community, in society. Yet, I beg the question: Who made DR.(and I am stll yet to see the PhD) the spokesperson for black folk's eduaction? In fact, who made these MEN the spokespeople for the men and women who can't afford to suspend their skin, with their 100's of million dollars and mercedes benz? Who decided, once again, that these men---those who critique and supposedly "tell it like it is" with no sense of care or concern for the discursive dangers of public speech? Many have given themselves the right, to make wrong (or more properly, under-developed) assumptions, accusations, and public outcries in the name of the many women, poor, disenfranchised people--whose voices we have yet to hear, and whose voices these COSBY folks seem to leave in the shadows.

JLee
May 25 2004, 11:29AM

The main thing we blacks need to stop doing is accusing someone of "acting white" due to displaying stellar speaking skills and good manners. When other blacks accuse me of acting white, I tell them that I act "green" because that's what I want in my pockets! I don't care if you're black, white, asian, native american, straight, gay, etc. Good manners and an excellent vocabulary cuts across all races, ages and social classes.

cassaura
May 25 2004, 12:36PM

It was wrong of Mr. Cosby to stand in front of graduating class at
Howard University and castigate the underpriviledged.

I liken it to someone standing giving an honorary
life achievement award at the Oscars/Emmies.. (which they love to do so
much), and saying by the way, our rich black, millionaires and
billionares are not holding up their end of the bargain.

We went to their movies, bought their albums, books, watched their tv
shows religiously... Why have the not taken some of those millions and
created a descent black network!! A publishing house for writers.. How
about a Newspaper!!..
Places of employment to get some of our underpriveledged off the corner.
I bet you would not be surprised to hear some of the same excuses, of
racism.. that the underpriviledged have.

I for one don't care what white people think. I expect the worst from
them until they prove me wrong. And many have. So I love my neighbor.
I do care deeply what black people think and how we treat each other.
"Whooped, and beaten" about this, "shamed out of that".. constantly
beaten down. When will we become the Good Samaritan to each other.

And trust me, if I had to make a living using math, I would need many a
Good Samaritan to survive!!!

cmoney
May 25 2004, 12:36PM

It could be that the howls of criticism against Cosby are the result of African-American's uneasiness with discussions relating to class. We can all relate to racism, but classism is relatively new in our culture. When we were slaves, we were all pretty much at the bottom. Now, there is greater income and educational stratification in the African-American community (much like any other ethnic group). Yet we are loathe to recognize that some of our problems are more related to personal and family situations (class) than they are to larger social dysfunctions (racism). Sometimes it is a combination of the two. Cosby pointed his aim directly at the problems that people create for themselves (bad manners, no initiative, criminal behavior, violence, drug use, premature pregnancy, broken marriages, bad parenting, etc.)and blame others for. Of course, nothing is black and white. Poor people can have excellent morals and values and prosper (Oprah) and rich people can be trash (i.e., George Bush). We can't condemn all who are not college educated, but we shouldn't assume that the rich and powerful have a lock on good values either. We must talk about it, though, if we are to make any changes for the better.
P.S. Cosby's cartoon where good English was not a priority and they hung out in a junk yard was "Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids". It's been a while.

Jeram
May 25 2004, 1:20PM

Looks like Chris Rocks comedy special is starting to reign more true now than ever. I'm sure some of you remember him saying that there is a battle now between the blacks and the niggaz (I'm paraphrasing). I can certainly identify with a lot of the posters who went through the constant label of trying to act "white". I remember going through the same thing in my teenage years. I remember that I blamed my mother for trying to influence me to act white like her. It was years later that I learned that she was only trying help me make something of myself in this white man's world. I bring all this up now because I know for me that those comments were internalized and it kept me from reaching back and helping out those who might be less fortunate. I think both sides go back wtih criticism. We hear from them that we think we're better again because we're trying to be something we're not. Being black is so much more than how someone speaks/behaves. I wish more of them knew that.

Michael
May 25 2004, 1:46PM

Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, but it's a little disturbing that there's this notion that poor blacks need to "pull their weight" only because to me, it implies this idea that we all need to aspire to a watered down all-purpose mocha latte black middle-class where everything fits in conveniently with the status-quo white overclass in America. But of course, this all runs from a stream of consciousness thinking I have about why capitalism is ultimately a double-edged sword that cuts human beings very deeply.

verrone
May 25 2004, 3:58PM

I've read every single one of the posts for this on this particular subject. No, I'm not really "riding the fence on this one", nor am I trying to be "diplomatic". Not my way. But I have to say that I agree with EVERY PERSONS REPSONSE ON THIS TOPIC. Sure, there are variances on the agree or disagree side of Mr. Cosby's comments. I believe everyone here(just my little opinion, everybody...okay?)has some serious valid points on what was said, but more importantly, what is ailing our community overall. I'm not soley blaming one particular race for our social/economic ills(WHITE/EUROPEAN).....although by and large they have had a serious hand in contributing to alot of destruction(both literal and figurative)in not only our community, but toward people of color across the globe(Africans, Aboriginies(Australia), Eastern Indians, Carribean Islands, etc., and so on and on... oh, and I'm sorry y'all, but the lastest on the "hit parade" of raping and overthrowing of gov't's...the Arab world). Although Mr. Cosby's "delivery" was pretty rough and gave the "audience" his version of the "cold, hard facts"; my only problem would have been if he had cleverly tried to tie in his classic brand of "humor" in what we all know and feel is a serious, but sensitve issue that faces our people at this time. No, I'm not shooting the messenger(Cosby), but as someone stated in one of the posts we can't get the full grasp of where he was coming from because we weren't there....but from what I read in Mr. Boykin's article from the audience's response, there was some laughter. Which leads me to believe that 'ole Bill put that little "Cosby humor-spin in his spillage"...oh, I'm sorry, I meant speech, right? Everyone, I believe harsh truths need to be told to us, but personally I would PREFER to have the likes of the following to tell US LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE...WOULD YOU ALL INDULGE ME FOR A FEW??? THE PREFERRED MESSENGERS OF MY CHOOSING WOULD BE: CORNELL WEST, ELAINE BROWN, TAVIS SMILEY, just to name a few...oh I have more, but I just wanted to give everyone an idea of what I think on this issue. It may sound or even seem petty to want to hear hard-hitting truths come from certain folks, but wouldn't you all agree that certain matters of importance....especially when spoken in public with the press in full view "ready to pounce" at any moment....would be well-recieved and REALLY listened to by the community even if it's something alot of people may find hard to digest initially? THESE PEOPLE I HAVE MENTIONED(AS WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., MALCOM X, MARCUS GARVY, AND OTHERS)WOULD NEVVVVVVVVER DO STINTS ON SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, PARADE ON CERTAIN, MEANINGLESS TALK SHOW PROGRAMS, AND THUS MAKING THEMSELVES ALMOST COMIC-LIKE JUSSSST TO LIKEN THEMSELVES TO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AS WELL AS THE PUBLIC!!! EVERYONE READING THIS!! YOU ALL KNOW GOOD AND WELL THOSE INDIVIDUALS I'M SPEAKING OF!! NOW I DON'T WANT TO STEP ON ANY TOES HERE, BUT THE BLACK LEADERS OF OLD, AS WELL AS THE FEW I MENTIONED ABOVE AS WELL AS SOME OTHERS OUT HERE HAVE EFFECTIVELY MADE A DIFFERENCE IN OUR COMMUNITY AND HAVE EFFECTIVELY SPOKEN TO US IN PUBLIC, GIVING US THE HARSH REALITIES OF WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO SUCCEED, ORGANIZE, CLEAN UP OUR MISTAKES, LIFT EACH OTHER UP, INITIATE GRASS-ROOTS GROUPS, AND SO ON......WITHOUT MAKING US LOOK LIFE FOOLS, BAFOONS, IRRESPONSIBLE CHILDREN, AND CAPITALIZING OFF OF OUR CURRENT AND PAST WOES, OR CRISES(IF YOU WILL)BY TRADING IN ALL OF THESE NEGATIVES WITH "A LAUGH-TRACK", OR "BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE". Now, I don't know if Mr. Cosby did this..but judging from the lingo that I read from the article that he used, he very well may have been somewhat of a smart-ass. Even if there were truths in what he said, I'm willing to bet that is why Mr Mfume caught a slight 'tude when taking the podium after Mr. Cosby's speech. It may seen I'm being too analytical with how this whole thing went down, but what we face in this day and time is bad enough(unemployment, homelessness, crime, drugs, violence, getting curious George's older cousin out of office asap so that we can have someone who's brain is fully developed in office....and so on)without smart-ass "sound bites" from those who have gotten selective amnesia about their past and/or who somehow will financially/or politically gain from chastising us in a manner that's just alittle too over the top. Yeah, we need to hear the truth, no doubt, and no, I know coddling and patronizing is not the way to go...but we are an extremely intelligent folk: from urban, uptown, downtown, and rural America. That's just the way it is. How someone who is famous/in the public eye comes across to us can make all the difference in just how receptive alot of our people will be to the message that's being heard. Thank you all for listening. Verrone(real name...Veronica R.) PS. Just one more thing...Reading the posts on this particular website(on all topics brought up by Mr. Boykin)has really been a good education for me, personally, and I just want to tell everyone that regardless of the actual view expressed by each person, it does my heart so good to hear such articulate, down-to-earth, and so-so intelligent black folk from all around, every walk of life....JUST DISCUSSIN'. I pray that important dialogues like these continue...I just wish my 21-month was old enough to read all of this GOOD, INFORMATIVE, READING. WRITE ON!

mark
May 25 2004, 7:28PM

Well,right or wrong Mr.Cosby came from the projects himself. We as Blacks should never become to high and mighty that we look down on ourselves. Shorty before Mr.Cosby's son Ennis was murdered simply because he was Black. Mr Cosby made some derogatory remarks about Black english. If Bill Cosby is so concern about the lack of education by lower income Blacks why doesn't he take his ignorant azz to the inner city and develop some programs to help these people.

Leonardo da Vinci E.
May 25 2004, 8:57PM

Whether we are rich or poor there must come a time to make new distinctions:There ARE those amongst us who wish to struggle...to use minds to consider Justice,fairness,equality...progress.
They actually do that hard work, and can be said to have established constitutional values as a reasonable and rational way to live.

Then there are those who proceed in a different fashion...their reasoning cannot be traced back to the great objective principles governing fairness,it will be based on something other than that.And these two basic personalities are at work in our communities at all times.

You cannot invite the vampire to join you in the sunshine...and all your kinds words will not sway its mind to do that.It has heretofore persuaded you to merely look the other way as it continued to destroy the potential in your culture.It has succeeded in convincing you it is merely your old pal and friend and Cosby was trying to warn you.

jazdin
May 25 2004, 9:32PM

I totally, whole heartedly agree with what Mr. Cosby said. We really do need to start taking responsibility for our own actions. Maybe then we won't feel so not in control of our own destiny. Racism has always existed in this country. The "system" was founded upon rasist principles & supposed "white superiority". That's the way it was, is, & probably always will be so you can't keep using that as an excuse. Some of us are so quick to say "Well, the White man won't let us get anything or have anything". I got news for you(& do pardon my ebonics here): AIN'T NOBODY GON "LET" YOU GET ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD!!! If you want it, you go for yours. Side swipe & elbow your way to the front if you have to. If you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. It seems to me that our forebears achieved & accomplished more back in the day then we today & it was much harder back then. They were lynching, castrating, beating, raping us & everything else they could do & yet our folks still managed to hold on & hope for a brighter day. If this generation were living back then, we as a people in this country will have probably ceased to exist! Some of us seem to be proud of our ignorance. We have access to some much more today but sadly, we don't take advantage of it. I could go on but I won't. I'll just say BIG UP to Mr. Cosby for having the balls to tell it like it is. It's tight, but it's right. Peace & Progress!

Reader
May 25 2004, 11:55PM

Excuse me, but the posters who suggest that classism is a recent phenomenom in Black America are very wrong. The fact is that it goes all the way back to slavery. House slaves tended to be better treated, clothed, and fed and generally acted the part. Then there were slaves who worked outdoors, such as coachmen, blacksmiths, and carpenters. Even though they techinically weren't house slaves their jobs were still valuble and they had close contact with Whites so had better treament and high status (amongst slaves), too. At the very bottom of this order were the field workers. Such was the difference in a field and house slave's rank that on many plantations the two didn't intermingle a lot much less intermarry. After slavery's abolishment and before the Civil Rights movement, despite the grim Jim Crow treatment & widespread Black poverty there did exist a flourshing bourgeois (usually elitist) Black class. Classism is always going to exist in a capitalist society even for its minority populations. Bill Cosby's generation did not invent this.

Jeff Smith
May 26 2004, 1:33AM

Come on people; please remember that Mr. Cosby's remarks were made while speaking at the celebration for the Brown vs. the board of education anniversary. Most of the comments were very well targeted given the fact that blacks had to fight for equality in education and now it appears as if it is all taken for granted by many within the black community. Just take a look at the statistics for the number of African American males enrolled in college versus those that are in prisons. The numbers are alarming.

We must embrace his views and begin dialog within the black community to change these and other alarming truths. Although his comments may be a bit exaggerated his point is well taken. Someone has dropped the ball. Black America needs to wake up and be open to constructive criticism within and outside the black community. Unfortunately some of Mr. Cosby's criticisms can also be applied to other ethnic/classes within our society. We are not the only group seeking immediate gratification through our skewed vision of priorities. Just because I may be poor does not mean I am absent of morals, good judgment and values. So I don't know if the argument of class is a valid discussion. All the money in the world can't buy you good taste, good values or morals. Just take a look at the various "Cribs" type shows featuring African-Americans. Like Mr. Cosby I do not feel it is necessary for me to discuss the ills of white folks. They are not the immediate problem. Before I can clean up the world I first must clean up my own house. And right now my house looks awfully ragged.

Jeff Smith
May 26 2004, 1:35AM

Come on people; please remember that Mr. Cosby's remarks were made while speaking at the celebration for the Brown vs. the board of education anniversary. Most of the comments were very well targeted given the fact that blacks had to fight for equality in education and now it appears as if it is all taken for granted by many within the black community. Just take a look at the statistics for the number of African American males enrolled in college versus those that are in prisons. The numbers are alarming.

We must embrace his views and begin dialog within the black community to change these and other alarming truths. Although his comments may be a bit exaggerated his point is well taken. Someone has dropped the ball. Black America needs to wake up and be open to constructive criticism within and outside the black community. Unfortunately some of Mr. Cosby's criticisms can also be applied to other ethnic/classes within our society. We are not the only group seeking immediate gratification through our skewed vision of priorities. Just because I may be poor does not mean I am absent of morals, good judgment and values. So I don't know if the argument of class is a valid discussion. All the money in the world can't buy you good taste, good values or morals. Just take a look at the various "Cribs" type shows featuring African-Americans. Like Mr. Cosby I do not feel it is necessary for me to discuss the ills of white folks. They are not the immediate problem. Before I can clean up the world I first must clean up my own house. And right now my house looks awfully ragged.

Laura
May 26 2004, 2:15AM

Totally OT, but http://www.condiriceisangry.com/
Pretty funny.

De'George
May 26 2004, 2:28AM

Dr. Bill Cosby taps deep into the constant dialouge about racism and classism in America. I feel that Dr. Cosby was correct in his general assessment that times are begining to get out of hand in Black America. More than ever in a variety of cities across the country, blacks are retrograding, especially amongst males. I find this to be the case due to lack of role models and youth subscribing to a sterotypical image of black American's created by the media, and then propelled by black people's own ignorance not to change. The image that I am refering to is the image of the black gangster, drug addict, or misbehaved juvenille deliquent. The black society conformation to this image is what I believe leads to a lack of growth and progress. The black community as a whole needs the mirror turned on itself and hopefully change can occur. We must continue to strive to be equal and not let language or sterotypical images of black American's hinder our progress or ressolve to be trully equal. It is past the time that blacks begin to re-fight for our equality and are existence, and I for one am ready for the black community to define itself rather than be defined by society. Dr. Cosby's remarks are great reminder that change needs to occur.

Laura
May 26 2004, 2:39AM

As re: the gains and losses vs Brown, I think it's important that the promise turned out to be in part a hoax. Let's look at what happened in the years since Brown.

I grew up in CA, and most school districts here didn't even start to implement Brown until the 70s. By the 80s, resegregation had begun due to changing home-buying patterns, and continues to be on the rise. In regions where there are other minorities in addition to Blacks, the situation is even more complex. Take for instance the Chinese student in San Francisco who is bussed across the city and can't go to their neighborhood school, because there are too many Chinese there. Brown was all about kids being able to attend neighborhood schools.

As for the college scene, at the Federal level, there were a lot more opportunities for free rides in the 70s. By the 80s, grants were changed to loans and what grants -- public and private -- were available were taxed, thanks to Reagan. Now, kids are lucky if they can even GET IN, much less pay for it. This applies to everybody, not just us, but it affects us disproportionately.

But no, let's blame low-income Blacks for all their problems instead of consindering all the factors, including "personal responsiblity".

Carly Fiorina, the CEO of Hewlett Packard said something a few months back (http://tinyurl.com/2qyt9) that made me think, well, this is something that low-income minority kids have been telling us for years: the education system is a joke, and a college degree is no guarantee of getting hired. It follows that some people will think, "what's the point"?

This is not to say that our kids shouldn't aspire to college, just a perspective trying to look at the broader angle.

Cliff
May 26 2004, 3:15AM

It is true that our education system is a joke. On average, the US spends more per pupil than most other industrialized nations and yet based on just about every benchmark, we rank near the bottom.

What's ironic is that just about everybody agrees that the public school system in this country stinks and yet nothing ever changes. It's almost as if we have a vested interest in the status quo because at least it gives us something to complain about.

Part of the problem is a lack of parental involvement. Another problem is unequal funding. I think the federal government should take an active role in ensuring that no matter what state, city or neighborhood you live in, your child will receive a set minimum standard. This will force many states (especially those in the South) to spend much more on education than they currently do.

Jay
May 26 2004, 5:17AM

Just as I was completing this article, I couldn't help but think that this issue is like every issue is when dealing with a problem. Thankfully, it was recognized as such which SHOULD make it more simple to resolve. Once there is an admission of a problem, then & only then can the correct steps be taken to resolve it. However, I've been a firm believer that in order to resolve a problem, the SOURCE of that problem MUST be dealt with initially & consistantly!! Dealing with the residual effects of a problem will not help to get the issue resolved. When the core of the problem is attacked then the best plan of action can be activated. Personally I do believe that the source of this issue is racism. However we as blacks DO have to turn the mirror on ourselves to see clearly how we can overcome that same racism that placed us where we are today mentally. Out of "his-story" comes the blueprints that will eventually pull us from the depths of this dispair our people face every second of every single day. By taking a very careful look at those blueprints, we can see how our minds & spirits were transformed into the very same mentality we have today as a people. Once that is COMPLETELY understood & changed then we'll be well on our way to rising up! As parents we do have to spend more time dealing with the education of our children as well as ourselves. Not one person walking the face of this earth should have an issue with illiteracy. Our technology & mentality is far too advanced for that to happen. Spending time reading (ourselves as parents) AND placing a strong & consistant emphasis on our children's educational enhancement MUST be in the top portions of our priority lists concerning the survival of our people. Education is the key however understanding all of various aspects of EDUCATION is also just as important. Education is not limited to the classroom. It must be made a DAILY routine within our homes!

Marlon
May 26 2004, 8:12AM

Allow me to share two profound excerpts I think fosters two problematic variables: socialization and conformity; some of us become permanently damaged, and many survive. But can one fully recover?

Cosby’s solution: a big heap of social deconstructivism + existentialism(personal responsibity) for some would soothe a few ailments.

“Cool Posing”(aka 'dumbing down') has been the example of "Cool" for too long; too many of us were/are victims. I was a victim.

1) Society places many pressures on boys to act tough, follow a strict code of masculinity and hide their emotions at all costs. This makes it difficult for adults to notice when boys are actually fairing poorly at school, when their friendships are not working out, and when they are feeling depressed or even suicidal.

Many boys are taught to repress their yearnings for love and connection and instead, build an invisible, impenetrable wall of toughness, a ‘cool pose’. Hidden by an emotional mask of masculine bravado or invulnerability, this leaves them isolated, forcing them to experience a gamut of lonely painful problems ranging from academic failure and drug abuse, to struggles with friends, clinical depression, attention deficit disorder (ADD) and even suicide and murder. The same kind of shame that silences girls from expressing their voices as adolescents takes a toll on boys as well, sometimes at a much earlier age.

2) Most people go through life having never really lived. They surrender their individuality, step by step, day after day -- until eventually, it dies. The process begins in the earliest days of childhood and becomes thoroughly ingrained by adulthood.

As teenagers, they mindlessly mask the beliefs and attitudes of others because they want to be "popular." As adults, they fulfill unchosen family and social obligations out of a sense of "duty." They submit to and support government restrictions on their freedom because they believe that doing so is "responsible."

They are victims of their own conformity -- their passive acquiescence to others' ideas and values. It is conformity, therefore, that one must defeat if he or she wishes to be free -- and ultimately wishes to really live.

Living life to its fullest is the essence of self-liberation.

Excerpts:
1)Listening to Boys’ Voices: A Research Project of Dr. William Pollack; and
2)Individualist Voice.com.

Richard Kirkwood
May 26 2004, 3:24PM

Let me just say this, I ain't mad at him for saying it. Yeah there are a lot of other factors weighing in on this subject. But the overall comments made were defintely to the point. I don't see why so many people are shocked, they should be glad that someone had the guts to finally come out and say it, and Bill
Cosby with his celebrity people listened. It got tounges to wagging and I think that was his primary reason for doing it. Now the boycott is stupid, when we need boycott something that really means something black people are no where to be found. But tell them about themselves and everyone is screaming bloody murder. Black people need to grow their asses up and stop playing the poor me victim. Always coming up with excuses to
why explain why they can't or won't do things that will advance them in their lives. Blacks may have been the most oppressed but they weren't the only oppressed people in this country. Others minority groups seem to do what they got to do and do it with their groups and they succeed, why can't we do that? Don't
come up with another excuse, I've heard enough.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 5:25PM

Let me just say this. YES.

It's really time the black community destigmatize a good education and replace the excuse of "racism" with another "r" word: Responsibility.

Julian Bond knows the statistics of black kids compared to white kids sitting in the same class rooms across America. He discussed them on a special broadcast on MSNBC and NBC regarding Brown v. Board of Education. They are startling statistics that ought to be a wake up call to black America.

White people have to stop being afraid of black people or black mobs cackling "racism" everytime there is an opportunity for us to confront problems like we confront them with fellow white people. We really can't do that until the black community can get over this sense that demands to do better from white people is "racism."

Employers have a lot of choices when they have a job opening. Unfortunately, a lot of blacks are shut out of jobs and view it as racism when nearly 100% of the time, as it is for anyone who doesn't get the job, it's because someone else presented themselves way better.

A good education goes a long way toward evening the playing field.

Laura
May 26 2004, 7:13PM

I disagree, Christian. Whites need to clean up their own backyard - take care of your Lynndie Englands and Newt Gingriches and Ken Lays, then we can perhaps talk about responsibility.

Leonardo da vinci E.
May 26 2004, 7:40PM

...But grant me this:If I dislike the word "morality" it is because it is usually connected with some narrow religious code written by some near barbaric minds,narrow and partisan in scope...but let us not allow others to define our lives in their own misguided terms...let us define it in a meaningful manner so that it becomes what it really is:Freedom in the uniqueness of the individual which neither takes unfair advantage of others nor unfairly forces itself upon others,and let us call this having "ethics"...the gay ones.And I know we continue to have struggles and so at times we must provide the "static" which provides opportunity for others to re-examine their unfair positions(for weal or for woe),and I know how sad that is....but for us,we who are a breed apart,there is no reason for us to limit ourselves to the scope of those who plainly are not reaching for the best potential in culture.Do not wait for them any longer...there is no reason why WE cannot achieve what they CANNOT.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 8:59PM

Laura, would white people taking care of our "Lynndie Englands and Newt Gingriches and Ken Lays" help black kids get a better education? I don't think so, but if you do, maybe you can educate us.

You represent a classic symptom that is pervasive in the black community. When it's time to take responsibility, you prefer to talk about something the white people need to do that has nothing to do with black people's problems.

Black America deserves better leadership and vision than that.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 9:12PM

How many people here think if white people were to put our "Lynndie Englands and Newt Gingriches and Ken Lays" in jail that this would make black kids read more? How many think it would make black kids run home and do their homework? How many think it would make black parents push their kids to value education, be in by 10 p.m., and turn off the television? I don't. What makes those things happen are families that care and community leaders with a clearer vision of what the real problems are.

Laura
May 26 2004, 9:43PM

Point is, Christopher, though many of them think they are, whites aren't in a position to lecture Blacks about "responsibility". Take responsibility for/in your own communities. Then perhaps we can have a conversation about it.

Laura
May 26 2004, 9:49PM

oops - Christian, not Christopher.

Christian Grantham
May 26 2004, 10:37PM

Laura, if you don't want white people to help take responsibility for kids where black people don't, which is what happens in a responsible community of people that care, then what would you like a white teacher to do when a black kid doesn't do their homework? Would you prefer the white teacher not "lecture" the black student on responsibility and only pressure the white kids to succeed? That's the silliest recipe for success I've ever heard, and most black leaders would agree.

Would you prefer the white teacher call the police and have those white people on your list arrested so the black kids will all of a sudden love to do their homework? You haven't presented a single thoughtful solution here. In fact, you've given a stereotypical voice to the very problem that's hurting black America the most.

Laura
May 26 2004, 11:15PM

Ok well, I guess you didn't read where my approach is twofold. "Personal responsibility", of course, while remianing mindful of institutional issues that persist. Both, at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.

You originally said, "We really can't do that until the black community can get over this sense that demands to do better from white people is 'racism.'"

Difference is that your white teacher is acting in the capacity of an educator, different from the general, unspecific "white people" you mentioned, above. There are a lot of Black teachers, like say, my parents, who go into the profession and deal with the same problems, everyday.

Finally, not sure why disagreement with one thing you said somehow emblematic of everything wrong with Black America, as you call it. But that very mentality gives you away. You're the one with stereotypical voice here, not me.

Bookwise
May 27 2004, 1:14AM

Speaking of classism during slavery, let us not forget those "free Negroes" who owned slaves, themselves. I wouldn't exactly consider them a part of the common folk.

& speaking of Marcus Garvey, one of his most famous quotes were, "I have no desire to take all black people back to Africa, there are blacks who are no good here and will likewise be no good there". This was said all the way back in '20's, proving that there was a concern even then with Blacks who weren't trying to hard enough to "pull their weight" and better the community overall.

And for the people who are trying to discredit Cosby by bringing up his personal problems, save it for kindergarten class tomorrow. That is one weak, childish way of attacking a person's argument. What happened in his personal life has nothing to do with whether he's right or wrong about this issue, nor does it hinder his ability to assess issues such as these. We are not talking about a known child molester, a murderer or flagrant drug addict here.

David
May 27 2004, 1:20AM

Can we not set off another avalanche of Laura's tirades again? She's already proven that she's holds a monopoly on truth ( check out her "fabulous" performance in "Heroes of the Month: April 2004). Just let her be! I have a problem with these so-called radical liberals [ and I am assuming Laura calls herself one]. They just as irrational as their conservative counterparts. God, please save us from Laura!

Kevin
May 27 2004, 2:16AM

To me, there is never an inconvenient time and place for the truth. I offer that we attempt to understand that racism is now a swift undercurrent hidden by the deceptively calm surface of politically correct verbiage espousing diversity. With this understanding, it might prove beneficial to acknowledge, accept and pass on to each generation that in order to succeed in this world we still must be twice as good as those who would choose to impede our progression. In doing so, perhaps we will merely enhance our presence as a driving force in not only this but any society in the world. I struggle to find an instance where intellectual expansion of self has caused personal injury. To the contrary, this ideology may inspire and motivate and foster self esteem and self actualization. I thank you for this opportunity to express my opinion.

HouLou
May 27 2004, 3:26AM

Laura, I support you. I fully understand what you mean. Christian Grantham wants to tell African-Africans what we should do, but he doesn't want to listen to what we have to say about some whites. Wouldn't it be nice if some people could simply accept an honest 360º evaluation?

The problem is that some white people, because of their inherent superiority complex, assume that their social problems are unlike that of minorities no matter how much their problems actually mirror minorities.

Lots of white people, such as Christian Grantham, like to reprimand African-Americans, but when confronted about similar issues portions of their own community face they do exactly what he does which is deflect.

We African-Americans know that we have problems in some portions of our community, and there are many programs across the country that seek to fight the ills in portions of our communities. This fact should not be ignored in light of Cosby's remarks.

The problem with Cosby's remarks, despite some validity to them, is that they allow people like Christian Grantham to come out of the woodwork with their paternalistic supremacist diatribes. African-Americans here were discussing this topic in a respectable "give and take" fashion, and then here he comes with his mess.

There are African-Americans who are well renown surgeons, lawyers, Astronauts, physicists, educators, architects etc., but how reputable is Christian Grantham while he's criticizing others? Look at the man in the mirror, Christian. Get your own house in order.

It's unfortunate that some white people always feel they know what's good for black people. Some have good intentions, but others simply get thrills by sitting on their high horse.

Like you Laura, I too believe that some white people are in no better position to tell black people about "responsibility".

Let's talk about social "responsibility" in general - it's really the essence of what Keith pointed out in his commentary.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 4:28AM

Christian please get off your soap box. The very last thing we need is another preaching from White America about what's wrong with us. This was the very essence of why this issue is rarely spoken about in public. If you were intimately familiar with our community you would have known that and would have avoided this topic or at least been somewhat respectful in your comments.

You come in here making these gross generalizations and oversimplification about an issue that it's apparent you know very little. It's one thing for a black person to generalize about his or her community, becuase it's assumed that he/she knows that their statements are mere generalizations and aren't applied to the entire race, but it's completely different when a white person does it because they almost always don't have the ability to distinguish between the actions of an individual or a group within a larger group. Because of laziness you guys usually just want to paint the whole damn group the same picture. And all your comments above, illustrates that to a tee.

So for heaven sake, just stay out of this one please. Go join a discussion amongts other whites and contemplate having White America take full responsibility for discrimination, making the legal system fair and just, ending police brutality, removing the glass ceiling, improving diversity in the media, lack of knowledge about other cultures, having children that commit mass murder in our schools, allowing their government to support SA Apartheid, racial violence, the increase in white supremist groups, the OK City bombing, and whatever else White America should have an open an honest discussion about but NEVER DO. Once yall have had that discussion, then let's compare notes. OK?

jaymillionaire
May 27 2004, 7:48AM

Bill Cosby is stuck in a time where blacks strived to assimilate in order to join the power-group in attempts to form a colorless society. There is only one thing wrong with the point of view of those who believe--like Cosby in regards to white supremacy "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!".

To attack the language dialect and pattern of African Americans (or any culture group)is an outdated and racist practice of intelligence measurement.

Any linguistic expert worth their salt will tell you that language patterns do not equate to how smart a person is: that is a direct contradiction to what we were taught, as African Americans, that we must not "embarass ourselves in front of white folks".

Before Mr. Cosby trashes our race for our social ills and mores let him explain how scandelous it is to cheat on your wife, and then have you bastard daughter arrested!

aquafemme2003
May 27 2004, 10:33AM

Here's what I don't understand: why is is that if Bill Cosby suggests that blacks need to better themselves, suddenly he is advocating white assimilation. Hello - why does education and economic advancement automatically become associated with white? Those of you with that mentaility are part of the problem.

I think Laura is full of excuses and wants to play the blame game rather than acknowledging that a woefully large percentage of the black community just doesn't give a damn and no matter what hands or handouts are extended to them, plan to drink Kool Aid and watch their stories all day. Christian's problem is he's playing right into her hands. When we get these sort of personal dynamics going on, it really detracts from the overall issue - which, might I add, is not going on and on about what the problem is, but trying to solve it!

aquafemme2003
May 27 2004, 10:35AM

Let me also add that it is correct to say that any attacks on Mr. Cosby's person are simply red herrings used by those who can't argue above the belt. There's actually a latin term for this since it's a well known fallacy...but I can't remember it right now.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 11:02AM

The Latin word for attacking someone's character rather than answering his argument is "Ad-hominem". And I completely agree, it has no place in this debate. Just because Cosby is not perfect, does not mean he can't voice his opinions. If only a perfect person can voice his opinion, then we are going to have a very quiet debate.

Jay- Yes, someone's dialect may not necessarily indicate a person's intelligence. However, it can hinder that person from getting a job, which was exactly what Cosby was trying to say. Whether we like it or not Corporate America is not interested in hiring people who can't speak proper English. That not only applies to blacks but it also applies to whites. Southern whites with thick, heavy accents and poor command of the langauge are also at a disadvantage (not to mention Latinos and Asians, who have heavy accents because English is their 2nd language). People will always judge someone by their communication skills. I also take exception with good communication skills and speaking proper English being called assimilation. Speaking the language properly and having good communication skills is not a "White" thing.

Christian Grantham
May 27 2004, 11:47AM

aquafemme2003, I don't think me argueing the point that we need to destigmatize the value of a good education is "playing right into her hands" or "detracts from the overall issue." The real issue is exactly what I and others are addressing, including Bill Cosby.

White people aren't falling into any traps by confronting those that want to ignore the problem. White people, as well as most black people here, are doing what a community needs to do when the Laura's of America cackle their irresponsible nonsense. And there are plenty of white Laura's out there, too.

We have to learn to confront those problems together and support those that stand up to hollow arguements advocating why the rest of us should not care and mind our own business. The marketplace of ideas is where that happens. Keith has done a great job with this blog to facillitate that discussion, and Bill Cosby has done a great job generating a national dialogue on the issue.

Troy
May 27 2004, 1:41PM

The truth hurts and when one of us even begins to shed that light we get bashed! HA!
Good for you Bill, it should've been said and discussed years ago! You go Mr. Jello! Tell it like it is! Repeated here for the one's who never ever listen util it's almost too late...

According to a Washington Post transcript, here are some of the remarks made by actor-comedian-philanthropist Bill Cosby on May 17 in Washington, D.C., during the gala commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education:


"People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around. . . . The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting."

"I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? And where is the father?"

"People putting their clothes on backward: Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong? . . . People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up . . . and got all type of needles (piercing) going through her body? What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a . . . thing about Africa."

"With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail. Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem. We have got to take the neighborhood back. . . . They are standing on the corner and they can't speak English."

"People used to be ashamed. . . . [Today] a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands,' or men or whatever you call them now."

"The idea is to one day get out of the projects. You don't just stay there."

"We have millionaire football players who can't read. We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs."

"We as black folks have to do a better job. . . . Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us. We have to start holding each other to a higher standard."

". . . We cannot blame white people. . . . ."

"The incarcerated? These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, saying, 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

We need more Bill Cosbys and more Keith Boykin's, whose light and clear determination, may they always always shine!!

cmoney
May 27 2004, 1:45PM

I stand by my comments about classism being a "relatively new" phenomenon in African-American culture and that we are uncomfortable discussing it (why do you think Cosby's comments caused such a firestorm among African-Americans? Have you ever heard such an uproar about a white celebrity decrying "white trash" and "rednecks"? Heck, Jim Foxworthy became a rich comedian telling redneck jokes).
During slavery, a slave was a slave was a slave, whether he or she was working the fields or doing laundry. They all knew that they had no control over their own destiny and couldn't honestly blame another slave for his or her own lot in life. Those decisions were made by the slavemaster. Up until about WWI, you could count on one hand the number of Black Ph.D's. Yes, there was an African-American middle class (preachers, teachers, morticians and a few doctors), but miniscule in number compared to today. We seem to forget that it was a VERY rare thing for African-Americans to go to college and get a good middle class job until recently. Up until the 60's and 70's most African-Americans did not have the opportunity to do anything that we would call professional or academic in nature. During Jim Crow, the failure to achieve was easily ascribed to the fact that racism was the law of the land. As such, we didn't blame each other for failing to achieve. It was understandable that an African-American with a college degree would be lucky to get a job in the post office and that his kids would not likely go to college. You could be as uppity and bougie as you wanted to be, but you were still sorting letters or mopping the floor next to your neighbor who had no education. Today, we have many opportunities, yet seem to have gone backwards by many measures that Cosby addressed (broken homes, poor behavior, violent crime, etc.) Our response has not progressed beyond the usual culprit--racism. Racism still exists, but no one can honestly say that today's society is anywhere close to the way it was when our gradparents were kids. Some of us become millionaires and others end up on welfare. Why? We need to start looking at some other causes for our problems and Bill Cosby has certainly evoked a good discussion to that end.

Laura
May 27 2004, 2:44PM

Would someone explain how 1- acknowledging the responsibility issue and 2- acknowledging institutional issues is "irresponsible" or "making excuses"? Some of us have a simple disagreement with Cosby on this. I don't see why that is so controversial.

Christian's superficial assumptions about Blacks vs whites make his MO clear and he's nothing new. Friend, we don't need any more sermons from condescending whites. Seriously. It's not your job.

Thanks Troy for posting most of the Cosby speech text. "People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up?" - lol.

Christian Grantham
May 27 2004, 4:35PM

Laura, you are so laughable :) Most people view the task of pushing our nation's kids to value education as all our jobs, no matter what color you are. Your notion that it's not white people's job to care about black kids is the exact opposite of what respected black leaders and most people believe.

In fact, your idea that white people pushing black kids to be more responsible and value an education is somehow a "sermon from condescending whites" sums up your lack of vision very nicely.

Your position isn't just harmful to the black community, it's harmful to America in general, and that's the root of the problem both blacks and whites will address together whether you like it or not. ;)

mee
May 27 2004, 4:40PM

Christian Grantham,
You should not argue with Laura. She has a whole different mindset.....

Laura
May 27 2004, 5:08PM

Christian, you don't know anything about my ideas, since you haven't even read what I've written. We don't need *condescending* whites, yourself for instance, telling us what's good for us. That's never been what helps our people.

I disagree with your assumptions and your approach and now, I'm a threat to America? The hubris is almost unbelievable.

jaymillionaire
May 27 2004, 7:52PM

Nobody speaks the English language "proper" in the United States. You should go to Britain if you want to hear "proper" english.

The ethnocentric irony of speaking mainstream "American" english has been used to oppress Irish Americans, Italian Americans, German Americans, Scottish Americans and African Americans by those who spent half their life in college studying what others were busting their ass doing.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 8:29PM

Jay, you know I meant, don't be absurd. We speak American English not British English. So speaking the proper language is to speak proper American English.

Why does everything have to be about oppression. Now just asking someone to speak properly and to communicate effectively is oppression. Good lord, I give up.

Our problems will never be solved. Instead of focusing on the issues and trying to improve the lives of people, we'd rather focus on the 'man', 'oppression' and the 'system', all of which does absolutely nothing to make the situation better.

Reader
May 27 2004, 8:49PM

Cmoney you are also standing by the statement that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I don;t really like the breaking-down-comments-thingy, but bare with me.

"why do you think Cosby's comments caused such a firestorm among African-Americans? Have you ever heard such an uproar about a white celebrity decrying "white trash" and "rednecks"? Heck, Jim Foxworthy became a rich comedian telling redneck jokes"

Uh, because maybe Black people in general are getting way too hypersensitive about anything other than absolute praise and taking the FAKE politcally correct era way out of hand? When it gets to the point where even a Black person has to tip-toe around eggshells because they might hurt somebody's wittle-bitty feelings, then this is evidence that the whole thing is becoming just asinine and benefitting no one.

"During slavery, a slave was a slave was a slave, whether he or she was working the fields or doing laundry. They all knew that they had no control over their own destiny and couldn't honestly blame another slave for his or her own lot in life."

And how do you know all of this? Are you old enough to have lived amongst them and observe their relations? Or do you have some sort of retro telepathy to be able to know what "they all knew"? If not, please list for us the sources for which you're basing your conclusions on. I've read extensively about American slavery and that's how I formed the content of my 1st post, books titles like 'The Slave Community','Bullwhip days', 'Lay my burden down', 'Twelve Years a Slaves', and 'The Life & Times of Frederick Douglass' amongst several others. Please name a few sources, independent of each other, which supports your stance so that I will be stood corrected.

"Up until about WWI, you could count on one hand the number of Black Ph.D's. Yes, there was an African-American middle class (preachers, teachers, morticians and a few doctors), but miniscule in number compared to today. We seem to forget that it was a VERY rare thing for African-Americans to go to college and get a good middle class job until recently."

You just proved my point despite yourself with this acknowledgement: "Yes, there was an African-American middle class". Whether it was a large one in comparison to what we have today is a non-issue. It did exist, period, which was my original point. Plus, are "preachers, teachers, morticians and a few doctors" the only ways to earn a decent living? You ever heard of a little something called entertainment? Walker & Williams? Ma & Pa Rainey? Sissieretta Jones? Ernest Hogan? Scott Joplin? Eubie Blake? James Scott? I can go on and on, we are a talented people. Entertainment not sophisticated enough? How about intellectuals and inventors like Booker T. Washington? Madame C.J. Walker? Jan Ernt Matzeliger, Lewis Howard Latimer, George Washington Williams, George Washington Carver, Granville T Woods, agina I can go on. Clearly if these poeple had the same defeatist mindset as you then they would've indeed been shinning someone's shoes or scrubbing some floor somewhere.

"It was understandable that an African-American with a college degree would be lucky to get a job in the post office and that his kids would not likely go to college. You could be as uppity and bougie as you wanted to be, but you were still sorting letters or mopping the floor next to your neighbor who had no education."

Your entire post proves that you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of Black history- NIL. As a matter of fact, these above comments REEK of a Black person with not only lack of knowledge but a huge inferiorty complex, too. I first suggest some serious reading. It's sad that a person who has the means to gain knowledge (literacy, a computer) has to assume their ways through a discussion.

Reader
May 27 2004, 8:59PM

Furthermoe, I'd like to add that the people I mentioned previously were definitely not the types who would've been having millions of kids out of wedlock, throwing their lives away on petty crime, disrespecting their (figurative) brothers and sisters, and spending half their paycheck on clothes and other technological junk they could live without. These people were upper-class NOT solely based on their paychecks. It had most to do with their mindset, how they carried themselves and they're behavior towards other Blacks. A person doesn't have to be rich to have class.

Cliff
May 27 2004, 10:10PM

I agree that cmoney grossly oversimplified the black social stratification of the past. We were not all considered on the same social standing even during slavery. There was a middle class and a upper class element in our society.

kbpolo3g
May 27 2004, 11:46PM

I Totally agree with Mr. Cosby, it is obvious among African Americans that there is a low sense of self worth and accomplishment. This is due inpart because we would rather spend hundreds of dollars on the latest designs, or on our cars than to actually invest in something that is going to benifit us in the long run; such as a college education. We need to stop feeling sorry for ourselfs and start taking responsibilty for our own shortcomings.

Reader
May 27 2004, 11:56PM

Thanks, Cliff, for affirming the truth. Cmoney has not only an oversimpified view of our ancestors, but an idealistic one, as well. According to him Blacks were so oppressed by Whites (now that part is very true) that they all huddled together with an equal amount of love and respect for one another out of neccessity if nothing else. That sounds great, but it wasn't always the case (that IS someting we should all be striving towards, though). Sometimes the loathing Blacks received was in turn unleashed on each other. That's a strange but true aspect of human nature: we tend to hurt the ones closest to us. Now he does have something if one is just talking strictly about the deep South. Just about any time a Black person got a little money, power, or success there, they were literally crushed by KKK and other evil racists. It was very hard for Blacks to get decent educations or to find work that wasn't merely a low-pay version of what their parents did as slaves. This was the cause for the mass migration in the 1920's up North, which is a slightly different story, yesteryear and today.

P.S.- I forgot to mention the Negro Leagues in my 2nd post. Until proven otherwise I doubt that the players of 1904 were any less aloof than the major leaguers of today.

HouLou
May 28 2004, 1:01AM

If some of those Cosby quotes are accurate, I am even more shocked to say the least.

I have no problem with names such as Shaniqua, Taliqua, etc. although I used to. After a major EPIPHANY, I realized that such names are as genuinely a part of our African-American culture as the name "Aakarshan" is to Hindu culture.

Such names aren't just cultural identifiers that defy Eurocentrism, but are an expression of cultural ingenuity. Whether the names come from the poorest African-American populace or not, people should seek to understand and learn to embrace because it isn't going to change.

Subconsciously, some of us still struggle with being identified as "black" and such names epitomize "black" identification. How many people cringed at the name "Kwame Jackson" (2nd runner up on The Apprentice). Sad, but many did. Such names are not negative. They are just different than the Eurocentric names we are accustomed.

Let's not bring up the fact that we also struggle with accepting other positive God-given aspects of African-American culture.

Shame on Mr. Cosby for mocking the names. Shaniqua or Taliqua don't stand a chance when people like Mr. Cosby write them off JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR NAMES. Some babies are barely out of the womb and are laughed at and deemed "ghetto" children just because of the names they are given. Do I dare say that we are the ONLY culture in the world who laugh at the names our children are given?

Is our collective esteem that damaged?

No wonder some of our children don't get a chance to develop into productive citizens. We are prejudiced against our own.

Last, all one has to do is look at the names below to see that Afrocentric names are a part of our everyday lives. Many of these black Americans are doing well in their occupations.

1. Trazanna Halstead-Moreno, former KPRC anchor in Houston
2. Ashanti Douglas (R&B singer, Hip-Hopstress)
3. Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
4. Oprah Winfrey, Media Mogul
5. Kendis Gibson, CNN Entertainment Reporter
6. Fredericka Whitfield, CNN Weekend Anchor
7. Kwame Jackson, (The Apprentice, Harvard graduate)
8. Beyonce Knowles, Triple Threat Entertainer

The list could go on and on.

Wake up black people!

out GWM
May 28 2004, 5:04AM

Although Cosby did make some valid points, I think he was totally off base with his comments about names.

Asians have non-Anglo names and it creates no problems. For example, people from China have names line Chen, Sun, and San. People from Japan have names like Akio and Inamoto. People from India have names like Vinod, Gyanendra, and Rajeshwar. Even some Europeans have unusual names, for example Italian and Russian names. These names don't cause problems, so why the concern regarding the unusual names that some black Americans give their children?

cmoney
May 28 2004, 10:54AM

It's amazing how someone who calls themselves, "Reader" can misread what I wrote. How do you get that I have a "huge inferiority complex" out of stating that, in the past, African-Americans with college degrees were forced to work in menial jobs? That was a simple fact of life back then. You named about 15 people who made a good living during our more oppressive times. So what! There were also millions of African-American sharecroppers who, as you noted, migrated out of the South to escape that horrible life. Most African-Americans did not have the options that we have today and that is point I was trying to make. Cosby and people of his standing can make valid criticisms of the failure of people to take control of their lives because these people have failed to take advantage of the opportunities that exist today. We can't simply blame racism all the time. My grandfather never went to college and spent most of his life working in labor and construction. I don't blame him for not having a M.D. because in North Carolina in the 1920's African-American men were strongly discouraged from getting a college education . BUT, he raised 11 kids who all went to college and were never caught up in crime. He took care of his family. He taught them morals. His story was not unusual. Today it would be. The issue Cosby is pointing out is that even with all of the opportunities we have today, parents won't raise their kids and many of their kids have no interest in getting an education. So READER, you don't know "what the hell you are talking about" if you think that I have a "huge inferiority complex". I am fully aware that there were wealthy African-Americans in the past. If you read my post, I noted that they were miniscule in number. And no, I wasn't around 120 years ago--were you? Everyone knows of the people you mentioned, so spare me the Black History Month lecture. I am more concerned with the nameless millions of African-Americans who never made it to the history books, yet paved the way for smart asses like you to sit at a computer screen and not work in a field somewhere. Obviously, you have a problem with anyone who SEEMINGLY disagrees with you. Talk about classism...

cmoney
May 28 2004, 11:34AM

Also,, I am quite proud of the accomplishments of our people despite oppression. The janitors, the field hands, the doctors, the teachers, the laborers. They survived through adversity so that we can be here. Will our descendants have anything to be proud about? We rap, we dance, we kill each other (no need for the lynch mob), we sell drugs to each other, we father children and leave them. Our history is not so much the Harlem Renaissance heroes we read about, but the everyday people who slogged and toiled to make us who we are. There is no need for all of us to be a nobel laureate or a superstar singer. If only we could do the small everyday things for ourselves and our community that our grandparents and other ancestors did for us, our descendants will have much to thank us for.

Jacqui
May 28 2004, 12:25PM

Bill Cosby is right. When are we going to have leaders that have our best interest in mind? When, as a group of people, are we going to stop blaming everyone else and become responsible members of society.

Bill, is the only African American "Leader", today, who has had nerve enough to publicly point out our short commings. We never look in the mirror, we consistently blame everyone else for our troubles.

Let's take a long look at BET, one of our more prominent TV channels, and see what others see of us: Shaking booties; fou