The Down Low Returns

By Keith Boykin, in sexuality
Friday, April 16 2004, 1:28AM

Just when you thought it was safe to read the paper again, the decade's most overhyped story on black sexuality returns. No, the media are not breaking down stereotypes by showing black gay and lesbian couples who are in healthy relationships. No, they're not explaining the false choice that suggests all blacks are straight and all gays are white. No, they're not educating us about how to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. Instead, they're talking about the secret, underground, clandestine, mysterious (take your pick) lifestyle of black men on the DL. The down low is back!

The down low is a term used to describe black men who have sex with men but do not identify as gay. The term entered the media lexicon about three years ago as a sexy and sexual explanation for the spread of HIV among straight black women.

The news stories first appeared in the winter of 2001 and peaked again in spring 2002. Then the story dropped off the front pages for more than a year. Last summer, the New York Times Magazine ran a controversial cover story about men on the down low. In the 21 years I've been reading the magazine, I don't ever remember a single cover story about black gay men and AIDS. But now the down low is back in fashion for the spring 2004 collection.

Today Oprah delves into the down low with an entire show about the topic. Last week, New York Times reporter Linda Villarosa wrote about the down low in the Times. Comedian Mo'Nique is featured on the front page of a recent special edition of POZ magazine talking about the down low. Even the television show Law and Order aired an entire episode about the down low recently. The down low is definitely back.

Why Now?

What's driving this new frenzy of down low media scrutiny? Has the CDC released new data about the down low? No. Has anyone been able to prove that men on the down low are primarily responsible for the spread of HIV among black women? No. Then what's going here, and why now?

Sadly, it's mostly about money. Next month, Doubleday is about to release a new book on the down low by author J.L. King, a former down low brother himself. King will also be one of the featured guests on Oprah today. With the help of the media, King has become the posterboy for the down low.

While the rest of America is debating whether gays and lesbians should have the freedom to marry, black gay and bisexual men, thanks to the down low, are reduced to pathologies and predators. No one writes about our relationships, our heartbreaks, our love. That's not interesting.

Sanctimonious black ministers beat us down every Sunday at church. Angry black women condemn us. And the black media portray us as lying, cocksucking, disease-spreading villains.

And yet, our self-esteem is so low that we're proud just to be mentioned by the media. I can't tell you how many emails and phone calls I've received the past two weeks about Oprah's show on the down low. It's as if black gay men feel that we've finally made it to the big leagues.

Yes, we've made it all right. We've made it to the point where we are public enemy number one to the black community. That's hardly a reason for celebration.

It's fine if publishers want to use all their tools to sell their books, but do we have to misdirect resources in responding to a legitimate public health crisis in the process? Do we have to mislead the public to educate it?

Many of our sisters seem to understand what's going on. Interviewed by POZ recently, Mo'Nique was wise enough to explain why down low men exist. "They're on the down low because nobody's talking to them," she said. "We can't deal with the honesty. We want to be lied to."

Problems With The DL Story

There are many problems with the down low story, but the major problem is that it's based on the principle of vilifying the very people we need to reach. Demonizing people who have already been stigmatized into silence will not end their silence. Instead, we will drive these men further and further into their closets of shame and denial.

Then there's the problem of personal responsibility. Blaming the spread of HIV on men on the DL completely misses the point. Each of us is individually responsible for our own sexual behavior.

We can't blame our man for lying to us if we're not using protection on our own. But the DL phenomenon discourages black women from exercising personal autonomy. To the extent that we can point our fingers at someone else, we implicitly exculpate ourselves from responsibility. Thus, straight black women are portrayed as innocent while closeted black gay and bisexual men are portrayed as guilty without anyone attempting to understanding how to lift their burdens.

Here's another part of the story that doesn't get told. The down low is not new. Men have been having sex with other men since the beginning of time. The term "gay" is a 20th century construction, so no men identified as such before the 1900s. All men who engaged in homosexual behavior throughout history would be on the down low by today's standards.

When Oprah asks King how he can tell who is on the down low, he tells her, "we do it by the eyes...I could make a connection in this room." I don't know why that's news, but where I come from they call it "gaydar," and it's so yesterday.

Neither is the down low specific to blacks. White, Asian and Latino men also have sex with other men but don't identify as gay. And by the way, not all men on the down low are HIV positive. The assumption that men on the DL are spreading the HIV virus to black women is based on another assumption that all these DL men are infected with HIV.

Moreover, men on the DL who are HIV positive are just as "victimized" by HIV as the black women who contract the disease from them. But there's still another problem in the discussion because there's no conclusive evidence that men on the DL are responsible for the rise in HIV infections among black women.

Sheryl Johnson, a community outreach organizer who appears on the show today, told the Atlanta Daily World that she was concerned about the emphasis on the down low. "Oprah's a powerful woman a lot of people listen to. She could have done a lot to spread some important information and save some lives, but she chose to focus on what I think is a rather sensational book," Johnson said.

Fortunately, Phill Wilson of the Black AIDS Institute will also appear on the show. But Oprah's decision to do the show at all gives credibility to a theory that's lacking in evidence.

We do know this. Black gay and bisexual men have been living with HIV and dying of AIDS for almost a quarter of a century now. The HIV infection rates for this group are the highest in the country. But the media and the black community have never treated this crisis with the same energy now devoted to "the DL threat" to straight black women.

If we seriously care about the spread of HIV, we can't isolate our concern and efforts on one segment of the community and ignore another. We have to create a climate of love instead of fear, where black men who have sex with men are not stigmatized by the church, the media, their families and their friends.

In fact, the whole DL mythology at some level acknowledges the struggle of the black man on the down low. He doesn't identify with the white gay community, and he's not accepted by the black community, so he goes underground and creates a secret fraternity of sex partners.

But if that's true, then our solutions are way off base. If we accept the premise that black homosexuality is that difficult, then why not break down those barriers? Why not use the media to portray the black gay and bisexual men who are out of the closet, living openly in their relationships, and who have reconciled their careers, their families and their faith with their sexuality.

If it's really hard to be black and gay and out, then those who are black and gay and out are the true heroes who deserve recognition. The New York Times Magazine should profile that group of people. Black media should tell their stories. And maybe, just maybe, Oprah will do a show on black gay men one day as well.

Comments (189) reveal

Comments conceal

Da D.L. Crib
April 16 2004, 4:57AM

Very good article. I have never understood why personal responsibility is never discussed. If women are getting HIV from bisexual men then this means that "straight" women do not insist that their partners use protection. It would seem that the problem lies there. Besides HIV other STD's are spreading as well and the lack of protection is the cause. If the same energy was used to spread that message as opposed to vilifying a sexual preference, then there would not be such high incidents of STD's.

The infatuation with the D.L. lifestyle in the straight community is curious and is probably a case of "thou protests too much." Perhaps these people throwing stones would like to participate but do not, since bisexuality to most is a sexual taboo!

Tom
April 16 2004, 7:58AM

Great piece. I totally agree. You are really insightful.

Craig
April 16 2004, 8:34AM

I get the feeling, we are at war and have no idea what weapons to use concerning sexuality as it is. Yes, the proper weapons to educate scoiety on sexuality are out there, it's just a matter of being willing to use them and accept them. It's time for us as queer folk to stop crawling and begin to walk and ultimately run. Run with the baton of self-worth and nothing less. Keith, continue to prophecy the truth. Twa-twa.

Rockwell
April 16 2004, 9:50AM

This was a very insightful article. As usual the mainstream media needs scapegoats for the AIDS epidemic and Black DL guys are the first on the list this round. The focus has now shifted from white gay men in the 80's to black women in the 90's to black gay men in this decade. When will the blame game stop?

Why cant the mainstream media and cable networks broadcast new shows such as Noah's arc, but are so ready to broadcast the all white Queer as Folk? Its because they would rather demonize us than show show positive images of us. I hope Oprah as a black woman will be as objective as possible and not pander to sensatinalism.

Peace.

Larry
April 16 2004, 9:59AM

I wonder if anyone will have the guts, the sense, or the honesty to bring up the fact that the way that the community---the black community in particular---treats gay men who are out of the closet is the #1 reason why so many of the men who can "blend in" with the str8 population because of their masculine demeanor feel that they need to just "do what they do" regards living a gay lifestyle with ever saying anything about it...

Larry
April 16 2004, 10:01AM

correction.......WITHOUT ever saying anything abou it...

tracy
April 16 2004, 10:08AM

5 stars Keith! Thanks so much for a truly insightful essay on this topic.

It is still important to practice safe sex. Period.

As women, we need to work on personal resposibility. There's no way to "tell" who your partner has slept with before - or who else they may be with now. There is a way to prevent the spread of AIDS, and that message has been out for over 20 years.

cmoney
April 16 2004, 10:14AM

Maybe Oprah is exorcising her own demons with this story. Steadman comes to mind. Yeah, I went there. Hey, if she wants to start a discussion on DL brothers, lets talk about why she never married Steadman. Do they even have sex? Is she just his "beard" (as they used to call Rock Hudson's "play wife" and girlfriends in Hollywood when he was on the "DL" and getting AIDS)? Is Steadman her "front"? I don't suppose Oprah will be discussing her own life on her show, but she will surely look into the camera and shed some tears just before a commercial break.
What pisses me off the most is that the same Black women who complain about men having unsafe sex and being dishonest about their sexuality, are the same women who are having unsafe sex and being dishonest themselves. They go to homophobic churches that are full of queens and put pressure on these queens (often with the help of the minister and others in the "Church family") to marry them.
A co-worker of mine, that I used to see out in the clubs all the time and is a flaming queen, to put it mildly, just married a girl from his church. He was so determined to prove that he was married that he brought his marriage certificate to work and e-mailed his wedding photos all around the office. Perhaps he knew that everyone knew that he is gay and that his marriage is a fraud upon society. This guy even confided to me that he had difficulty "consummating" his marriage because he had not been with a woman in over 10 years! I am sure they were both fighting for the bottom on that honeymoon night!
Clearly, pathology is at work here. Self hating queens. Black women so desperate for a husband that they totally ignore the obvious sexual preferences of the men they pursue and marry. We have some whacky people in our society. Focusing only on the DL Black man and HIV misses more than half the problem.

Kwei Quartey
April 16 2004, 10:54AM

Thanks to Keith's essay. I am always grateful that we have him - an independent and clear-minded intellectual who sets the record straight. For all reading this forum, keep my name in mind. I am also writing a book on DL, which I hope will be published. The style will be different from what it appears JL King's book is. Mine will be an examination of the African-American man and his fight throughout history from the time of slavery to the present day to clear his ever-tarnished name, the renewal of this villification through the vehicle of "DL", the REASONS why black men are DL and why it is nothing new, and why it is not really a phenomenon restricted to black men. The work will also examine the state of modern relationships between black men and women and how black women share some culpability in all that is going wrong. I will also question the statistics on the spread of HIV among black women, and after reading King's book I will probably devote space to dissecting his work as well. My book will probably not be as sensational as his, nor will it be some kind of horrifying confessional on my part (I'm gay but have never been "DL" in King's sense), and for those reasons may be harder to get published. Money talks. Any suggestions/input from others about what else I might include in my book are welcomed. My email is kjoq@earthlink.net

Kabanga
April 16 2004, 11:23AM

Great article.

You should be on Oprah, giving her the facts.

Also, BET shares some blame, as their always hyperbolic treatment of the news. For instance, they state that "a staggering 1 in 160 black women is HIV positive". Which made me go... but wait a minute... 1/160, that's 0.625%. Overall HIV infection in the USA is supposed to be 0.4%. That doesn't sound that dramatic?

Anyway, I found out from a website called avert.org, that the biggest impact on HIV infection in the black community doesn't come from gay men, or even bisexual men, but from intravenus drug users.

That's where the real emphasis should be - the war on drugs that stops government from treating addiction as a medical condition, and turns addicts into criminals instead. Massive incarceration, and a serious hampering of effective treatment of long term addicts result, causing them to share needles and spread HIV into the black community.

A story you won't hear.

Andy
April 16 2004, 11:25AM

Great essay Keith - thank you for your continued insights.

Jim Wayland
April 16 2004, 11:48AM

The only thing I might add to all these very astute comments is that, from my own perspective as a white gay man, the DL phenomenon also feeds that old stereotypical homoeroticization of the black male for much of the white gay community. I try to be conscious and cognizant, but I have to admit I'm not immune to these hypermasculine images of thugs looking for man-to-man sex. Mandingo lives.

Nee
April 16 2004, 11:49AM

Sorry. I don't support the idea of DL brothas or sistas. Being out, isn't about telling everyone and their mama! Being in the closet doesn't mean creepin' on the DL. The media uses it to keep us in the closet. Cheating is cheating and you can catch AIDS/HIV from creepin' whether it's with a man or a woman. I think folks do need to talk about people cheatin' and infect their wives and husbands with STDs. Many Black families don't get married but they have been commited for years and years and that counts as marriage too and many don't use protection. I do believe you should protect your own, but in a heterosexual marriage and you're trying to create babies, you can't with condoms on lol. But you aren't legally married and not trying to have a family yet...wrap it up! So I have to stick up for the ladies a little...bit. I either see people saying DL men are the victims or the women they hurt are the victims. No one hardly likes to think equal. I'm actually tired of the topic. I don't like cheaters period. It gives the idea that bisexuality means you want both at the same time. I have a friend who swear that bisexuals will always be on the DL because of the attraction to both sexes or maybe just one. Whatever. People need to know who folks are sleeping with. Ask. Of course people lie, but at least you asked. Of course there's the fear that someone won't be with you for being bisexual, but hell...that's who you are and screw them if they don't like it. Honestly, that's how I have been. I'm bisexual and if someone doesn't like me for it, it's just like them not liking me because I'm black or young and educated whatever...they can go. I can't find any information that would justify cheating on someone either.

Clearly on Oprah...how much can a DL brotha be? This is nationwide tv broadcasted all over the world...lol.

Nee
April 16 2004, 11:52AM

There's hardly a look for being gay or straight anyway. You are who you are. If not, what am I suppose to look like? a butch-femme mix or something? I think not. lol.

cmoney
April 16 2004, 12:15PM

Kabanga's observation about the effect of incarceration on the spread of HIV is on point. Many of these so-called DL brothers were infected in jail by having sex with another man. Most, if not all prisons, refuse to provide condoms to the inmates since, in their opinion, they don't want to encourage sex. The fact of the matter is that these men are going to be men and are going to have sex whether a condom is available or not. An interesting epedemiolgical study would be to chart the level of HIV infection among Black women in a given area and compare that with the level of formerly incarcerated Black men in that same given area. I would hypothesize that the level of HIV infection among these Black women would closely coincide the number of ex-cons in the neighborhood. The war on drugs is a war on Black Americans in many ways that have yet to be realized. Until that war is over, we need to stop blaming everyone else for our health. Sexually transmitted diseases are the most preventable diseases. Unfortunately, ignorance is a disease that seems to have no cure.

Stan
April 16 2004, 12:17PM

There is a reason why the DL phenom is hot b/c so many guys (mostly blk) are doing it and proud of it. Go to yahoo groups and see how many black DL groups there are; go to AOL chat rooms and you see black DL m4m rooms. Read guys' profiles and you see lots of them describing themselves as DL (although some are just pretending) and only want other DL guys. I don't see that many wht or asian men adverstising themselves as DL (althou they exist). Personally I've had sex w/ a brotha and after sex he told he has a girl friend. I agree w/ Keith that DL men's contribution to the spread of hiv in the blk "straight" women population might be exaggerated but he can't deny that it IS a problem.

Ashe
April 16 2004, 1:08PM

We need to start a letter writting campaing to the Oprah show. J.L. King is making all black men look bad for the sake of money. He's been pimping his story to all media outlets. Supposedly he was going to be on ABC's 20/20. Now he went str8 to the Queen of media talk. Talk about lottery winner! He knows his appearance on Oprah will make him an instant millionair. I hate him for what he is doing. Fucker

Eva Young
April 16 2004, 1:59PM

Keith I agree with your point that the media should also be doing stories about Black Gay Men who are out.

Also your point that the DL isn't a black community only behavior is well taken. How many members of congress are on the DL?

Eva Young
April 16 2004, 2:03PM

I just emailed a copy of this article to the New York Times Public Editor - public@nytimes.com. I urge others to do this also. If enough people do this, the editor will comment on this in a future column.

It's good to use this as an opportunity to pressure the NY Times into more thoughtful coverage on this issue.

Eva

mr
April 16 2004, 2:51PM

On Soul Food last night, one of the main character's brother revealed that he was HIV positive. The character then spent 2 minutes insisting to his brother he isn't Gay or Bisexual and he caught it from having straight unprotected sex. This was followed up with the main character then discussing this with his wife and putting the blame on DL and homosexuals anyway. While the wife mildly says "don't be homophobic" the damage was already done. You had a respected African American male character on the only African American drama series on the air talking about how Black Gay men know HIV is out there and continue to have sex and spread it around infecting innocent people like his brother. His innocent brother by the way had infected his own wife and at least two other women by having unprotected sex. Why his "married" brother was sleeping with at least 2 or 3 other women outside his wife isn't brought up in any kind of negative light, why his brother would cheat without even using his God given brain to use a condom isn't mentioned either. I was disappointed by the statement the show made about Gay Black men even though one wasn't even involved in the crisis. We just became the group to blame for their problem. I didn't expect much from Law and Order SVU since African Americans do not write that show, but from Soul Food, since a part of their audience is Gay Black Men, and hopefully the writers are African American, I would have hoped for more.
By the way, Syphilis is also on the rise.

mr
April 16 2004, 3:28PM

By the way on the same episode of Soul Food, a main female character, married, has sex with her sister's boss. The two only met twice. Considering this was supposed to be a special HIV episode, they didn't even show this woman, questioning the guy she only really met twice about his sexual history, nor did they show a condom wrapper laying on the table or in view to show it was used. Yet the same show alludes to the irresponsibilty of the homosexual community.

jaymillionaire
April 16 2004, 4:12PM

Please do not ignore the DL problem in the black community. Call the partyline, search the internet, read the personals, DL men are dangerous provacators of unsafe sex and lack honesty and morals to be honest with themselves and their partners. We (as open black gay men) must hold the DL community accountable.

Blacks represent 43% of the HIV cases in the US. Black women are 23 times more likely to get HIV than white women.

As long as we make excuses and ignore that the DL issue is a urgent social concern due to the lack of lifestyle education and acceptance in the black community we will be mired in denial and our HIV rates will continue to rise.

Keith please do not urge criticizm of the messenger-- regarding the DL problem. After all the DL phenomenon is what is keeping many blacks from fostering healthy meaningful same-sex relationships.

Black women are being crucified for the black man's sins (yet again). LETS GET OURSELVES TOGETHER AND STOP SCREWING AND DEMAND CONDOM USE FROM THESE DISHONEST, SICK INDIVIDUALS.

If you attempt to beg the question by saying they (the liberal media?) are demonizing black man, ask yourself this, are lesbians creeping on the "Down Low" at the same rates as men?

I think not.

cmoney
April 16 2004, 4:31PM

jaymillionaire:You don't know lesbians, but you miss the point. EVERYBODY is humping around (including lesbians!)and everybody is at risk for getting or giving HIV. The point Keith is making is that the only party that seems to be blamed for the spread of HIV is Black gay men. Why? Was Rock Hudson villified for being on the DL? No. He even got married and played the leading man role in Hollywood for years, even as he was sick and dying on Dynasty. Where was the outcry about gay white men on the "DL" when he died and put his co-stars at risk? Even Magic Johnson has escaped this stigma by staying married and claiming to be straight (Right!).
This media hype about DL black men is nothing more than an attack on gay black men as long as the focus is only on black gay men. Of course HIV is a serious problem. No one disputes that. It will never be eradicated, though, as long as we continue to blame one segment of society while letting the rest of the ho's out there believe that they can have sex with anyone at anytime and only get a disease because someone ELSE was irresponsible.

Troy
April 16 2004, 5:02PM

cmoney thank you for saying it plain and simple and yes, I am sending a huge thank you card to Ms. Winfrey, thanking her, her hairdresser, her dismissal of all things gay and all her shortcomings, even that of super racist Mr. Disney who along with (King syndicate of Merv Griffin fame, yep him too) owns ABC which lines her pockets with all that is green to make her that big time billionaire. Back when she was black she was doing many an escort and date but we won't go there. Oh yeah there's a problem but it's deeper than blame, condoms and black men.
Take action to power yall; fight it! It all the ways possible by any means necessary, even by sending a Hallmark card.
J.L. King gets one too. For as many emails I got about this I will be sounding off. It's on!
The D.L. might get exposed but some other major shit needs to be exposed and called all the way out as well!
Straigtening combs -hot -burning and on fire, worldwide!!!

Troy
April 16 2004, 5:13PM

Just got off the phone with a friend of mine who said the show (oprah) wasn't about blame and the show was quite good. He also says he wants to buy J.L. King's book. I guess he was sold or maybe just maybe it was a genuine effort to get at some truth. Anywho I am here chained to my desk in KKKorporate america waiting on 5 to get on a crowded subway with all kinds of D.L.s praying the train is up and running and I get there in one piece....Wonder what if anything is next? How many changes can we go through and how many times we can tell ourselves it's okay. I wonder.

Stan
April 16 2004, 5:39PM

I agree with jaymillionaire. It's the blk gay men who glorify or proud to be on the DL that's contributing to the problem. By your logic, AIDS was thought of as primarily a white gay men's disease back in the 80s and media was full of stories on those, then aren't the media villifying white gay men then? The focus shifts now b/c it's a big problem in the blk community and they find the DL men is a big contributing factor (although how much is a big disbute). I mean let's be realistic here - how can you tell married women to use protection all the time(if they are trying to have children)? By focusing on the DL men at least hopefully these DL men can use protection if they want to cheat on their spouses and reduce the risk of transmitting disease to them.

AJ
April 16 2004, 5:42PM

Just watch and taped the show. I was very disappointed because Oprah did not spend enough time on HIV education. J.L King promoted lies. The sublimnal message in the program was that all DL men are HIV positive and that most Black men are on the DL and that they are positive too.

Laura
April 16 2004, 6:23PM

I'm inclined to agree with Keith that this DL bit is destructive media hype. It focuses on an old stereotype of the hypersexual Black man who, not satisfied with womanizing, goes out and gets even more to satisfy some voracious sexual appetite.

I also agree with Larry that the DL wouldn't be such an issue if Black gay men were treated better in our communities.

But even if all Black homophobia ended tomorrow morning, Black gay men would still have to deal with this bullcrap:

"I try to be conscious and cognizant, but I have to admit I'm not immune to these hypermasculine images of thugs looking for man-to-man sex. Mandingo lives."

Then hopefully you are doing all you can to educate yourself and your fellow white gays on how to end the racist Mandingo stereotype. They are a large part of the problem.

Cederico
April 16 2004, 6:29PM

I agree with a lot you say Keith but you will not see me defending the "DL". I know to many people on it and do all the irresponsible stuff that they are accused of. Its reality. Yes there are a million reasons but that doesn't change the fact that these men don't have the courage to be truthful to themselves or those in their lives.

As an out black gay man I am out there showing there are gay black men and we aren't bad eveil people. But I can't do it alone. Other black gay men need to get out of the closet and help bring about change. Black people aren't going to become less homophobic until we presents ourselves as who were and demand respect. How can you ask demand respect when you can't even admit you are gay or bisexual, you are cheating on your girl, living a double life, and not practicing safe sex (that only affects gays and I am not gay)?

Keith it is time we stop making excuses for the DL and giving it acceptance as a legtimate way for a black gay man should lead his life. It is time for these men to show some personal inner strength and be honest.

Another thing......black gay guys on the DL can't complain how the white gay community doesn't welcome them. They haven't tried....they are not even out. The white gay community ifs not gonna accept us until we first accept ourselves and demand a place at the gat table.

So no more excuses. There is a simple solution. COme out, be proud, protect yourself and your partners. Simple. No more if ands or butts.

Londell
April 16 2004, 6:56PM

"As an out black gay man I am out there showing there are gay black men and we aren't bad eveil people. But I can't do it alone. Other black gay men need to get out of the closet and help bring about change. Black people aren't going to become less homophobic until we presents ourselves as who were and demand respect. How can you ask demand respect when you can't even admit you are gay or bisexual, you are cheating on your girl, living a double life, and not practicing safe sex (that only affects gays and I am not gay)?"

I agree with Cederico 100%. Sorry for the quoting, but I found no need to retype what was already written!

alicia
April 16 2004, 6:58PM

ditto!!!

great column as always keith

i am sickened by and bored with all of it

DL bros are cowards and liars and closet gays/bis

cowards/liars and sexually confused toxic whorish people exist in all races

only the racist media would dare morph this into an exclusively black issue

they are only intensifying rabid hatreds of black gays by black hets

the black preachers need no such hateful help!!!

these DL dogs are living down to the myths that we homoa are all fatally germy creepers etc...

and why are the media is ignoring all of the DL sistas out there too!!!???

many het women are creeping with women too
many stud lesbians hunt sex with men on the DL too

cheating is cheating...whether with a male or female...hos rule

most people are rainbow dogs on the DL these days...

shame!!!

see more:
ie
the low down on the down low
at
www.geocities.com/ambwww/index.html

peace
ab

Kola Boof
April 16 2004, 7:04PM

I'm so disappointed today after watching OPRAH.

I really thought she was more intelligent than to fall for the "wording" surrounding this crisis in our community...and I think it's becoming an Urban Legend...these myths now surrounding "Black Men" and their alleged predisposal to gay sex...

What is really going on here? Is the media trying to scare off white women from sleeping with black men and to do it...they're creating this Down Low Bullshit?

Bi-sexuality has always been present in the WORLD and in every race of man, every community.

I'm not disputing the AIDS explosion amongst blacks. BUT...

I don't trust this particular story about the DL. I think that poverty and many other social issues that I don't feel like bringing up...including black women generally not being raised to place VALUE on themselves as other women are raised to...play a major role in this.

As well, our men are encouraged by rap videos all day that they're supposed to be fucking 10 women. Not 1. This also could account for this explosion.

I think there are other factors in portraying blacks as "undesirable" as sexual partners..to the nation.

alicia
April 16 2004, 7:06PM

i have never been a fan of oprah
because
she has more power than anyone else in america
because mainstream white america adores her and actually listens to her

and yet

she has never had anything real to say

her show is a fluffy tame safe waste of time

i miss donahue

it is truly a damn shame that a wm could host a show that was consistently more politically relevant to ALL black realities...

see more on oprah:
film review: belowved
at my site

peace
ab

alicia
April 16 2004, 7:11PM

i missed oprah
but there is a great recap of her DL show here:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200404/tows_past_20040416_c.jhtml

fyi

here is the thing i hate most:

DL fools are in denial

just because u do not call yourself gay does not mean u r not!

many out gay men never wed men/have male spouses etc either

a gay man can live alone or be a virgin forever,
be celibate until he dies, never marry anyone and still be a HOMOSEXUAL!!!

that is the reality behind all the toxic lying cheating delusional bs

a trash can filled with trash but unlabeled is still trash!

shame!!!
ab

Da D.L. Crib
April 16 2004, 7:20PM

The point was made in a few posts dealing with married couples. Yes, if a couple expected to have children condoms would not be used and if the husband (or wife) is creepin then they could contract HIV and spread it to their partner. This is true.

That a partner would infect the other with HIV is not the problem with this scenario. The problem is infidelity, as some posts have explained. Obviously, it is more catastrophic if a partner is infected with HIV because the other was creeping and have unprotected sex. Still the problem is fidelity or lack of. With the threat of HIV this raises the stakes but it still reverts back to can you trust your partner?

Incidents of couples admitting that they cheated sometime in their marriage are high. It would then follow that HIV infections would be high due to this. What is being vilified is that the disease was spread, not the reason.

Admitting ones sexual orientation to ones family, close circle of friends and acquaintances is a matter of choice. Some are comfortable with that while others are not. Personally, I do not want to know the sexual appetites of my friends and family because I feel it is none of my business.

alicia
April 16 2004, 7:28PM

when DL bros claim they "only play house with women" etc...

what women are ignorant enough to actually consider that a privilege/gift/compliment???!!!

het women should not be such eager and willing maids and chefs to their sorry cowardly asses!!!

that claim alone shows how toxic sexist abusive and ignorant they are

be a man
come out
and let another man be your slave

spare women ALL of your lies germs bs AND chores!

peace
ab

asentawa
April 16 2004, 8:00PM

Beyond personal responsibility through safe sex and gay black male invisibility, one important issue emerges as the least addressed and most missed. That is the freedom of people to privacy in their personal lives, especially when it comes to sexuality. What exactly are King and Oprah trying to accomplish through the media- to warn black women that the men who they are sleeping with might be gay and therefore more likely to have HIV or AIDS? Or that the men who they are sleeping with are not men at all, but perversions of masculinity who should make their shortcomings public for all to know and avoid. It is the puritanical conventinal wisdom of masculinity- what it is, how it looks, what if fucks- that results in so much dishonesty in American patriarchy, both public and personal. It seems to me that eveyone should loosely read Plato's Symposium, make marriage a civil right, and stop investigating each other's sexual dalliances.

Marlon
April 16 2004, 9:47PM

I think King left most females confused, and set the black male high on the ignorant scale. However, the brutha from the AIDS Institute saved the show; he should�ve shared the couch with King.

King left too many holes: he blamed black men for white men infecting their wives; and generalized all DL as ignorant sex crazed Negroes.

King didn�t mention the many DLs that get married too young before honestly exploring their sexuality, and with substantial years into marriage, they�re committed financially, emotionally, and psychologically, but realize they�re Gay, and have a loving sgl relationship on the DL.

Finally, I wasn�t surprised to witness Oprah�s detachment from reality. She actually thought acceptance of black gays had improved due to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and other shows. Who�s feeding Oprah all the bull?

blistering napalm
April 16 2004, 9:54PM

how is JL King DL?
sorry, folks, she is a kween

Terrence
April 16 2004, 10:38PM

Great commentary, Keith. I agree 100%.

JL King has no integrity. It's all about the money - same (ratings=money) with Oprah. I'm guessing King's book is as shallow as his DL behavior, and I certainly won't buy the book. He's being hailed as a hero for "exposing" the DL lifestyle, but he suggested on the show that he is still sexually involved with men.

He keeps saying that he did the book for his daughter, but does he really think that his book will protect his daughter from a DL man if the man is ultra determined to be DL? I don't think so.

While I think people should be educated, I am very disappointed in the Oprah Show. It was very sensational. I had faith that she would have made it balanced, but it wasn't. Phill Wilson definitely should have had more time to counter some of the fears and myths that JL King delivered. You would think that African-American males are the only men on the "DL" with HIV/AIDS by seeing the show.

Then for King to spread more fear by saying that white women are at risk for HIV because suburban white men are coming to urban areas for sex with black men men was very offensive to me. It suggested that white men are only being infected with HIV by black men - not by other sources. And what about these white men infecting black men?

I just find it astonishing that Oprah didn't have a representative from the C.D.C. (Centers for Disease Control) on her show to offer any statistical data. And did anyone see the HIV/AIDS map of the South that was shown? Showing that map, in my opinion, suggested that the DL was responsible for the increase of HIV/AIDS in the South.

Oprah's question was something like, "What is going on in the South?"

It was very clear that more HIV/AIDS health experts were needed on the show. If Oprah really wanted to educate people, she would have had more experts and less sensationalism.

Unfortunately, she has now lost some credibility with me.

FRE
April 16 2004, 10:54PM

Regarding DLs:

Yes, their behaviour is often irresponsible. But consider this.

People often act the way they are expected to act. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If we expect people to be irresponsible, then they are more likely to act accordingly.

I strongly agree with those why say that gay persons should be open. Even so, it must remain a personal choice and some gay men and women do have legitimate reasons not to be open. This is especially true for young persons who are still financially dependent on their parents, which obviously is a temporary problem. But openness is required to change social attitudes so that we will be better accepted.

In communities in which being gay is not accepted, the DL phenomonon will be much more common than in communities in which it is acceptable to be gay.

Lorenzo Britt, Sr.
April 17 2004, 12:02AM

Great topic outlining very clearly "Why men who consider themselves on the DL", remain on the "DL". It proves a theory of "straight" America but, also proves we as a people understand why men of color who practice such acts, will always be on the "DL". Mr. King did not reach me at all. He made excuses for white men while negatively portraying black men. Thank you Phill Wilson for making the point all black gay men were waiting to hear. A negative portrayal of black gay men, by a book marketing King, into a positive and reaching message that clearly opposes unexplained views.

Kevin
April 17 2004, 12:38AM

Well,

I personally think feel that yes DL men are a part of this epidemic rise in HIV/AIDs rate in African-American women, but Keith you are right in saying that this is the most sensationalized part of the picture. Women of color needed to have the self-esteem to tell a guy, "hey put on a condom!" And yes, even though this rise in mainly seen in poor women, poor should not equal ignorant.
You know you really can't fault the media too much because all they are doing is what they know. They know how to put blame on and find problem in and with African-American men.
We need to educate ourselves and promote safe sex in our brothers and sisters, no matter who they are having sex with.

Leon Grant, Jr
April 17 2004, 12:42AM

E. Lynn Harris wrote the forward for JL king's book. I wonder how that plays out?
www.livingdownlow.com

Christy
April 17 2004, 12:46AM

I have to agree with Tom...this was a great article ...very indepth and most of all true.

Leon_Grant, Jr.
April 17 2004, 12:52AM

Also has anyone seen/gotten this email before???

This is very important for everyone to read.

Ladies, please read the following article below!!! We perish for a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!!! The release date for this book is April 2004!!! Pass this email to every SISTER you know!!! Men, this is important for you to tell your daughters, sisters, etc.

This is not a very nice topic to discuss but I feel I need to share this information with my sisters. Last Saturday, Kisha & I went to a seminar where a man named J.L. King was speaking on the subject of "DL Brothers". The "DL" stands for Down Low or Double Lives. Now, what makes this so interesting is that Mr.. King is a DL brother. South Carolina is #8 in the nation for HIV/AIDS new cases. African American women are 80% of all new cases and they are contracting the virus from men who are having sex with other men but they are doing this on the "Down Low". These men say they are not gay...they are heterosexual but just sleep with men once in a while. These are men who work in the church as officers, men who are leaders in the community, men that say they hate those "faggots". Mr.. King shared his life story and said he knows a lot of "DL" brothers in the NBA/NFL and even in the entertainment world and to prove his point: On Thursday, the director of the Tri-County Collaboration for the prevention of HIV/AIDS, Valerie King (no relation) took J.L.to a Charleston Club and introduced him to 5 men she knew. These men were respected men at work and church. Valerie excused herself for about 15-20 minutes. In that time J.L. had gotten 3 of the 5 men's phone numbers to hook up with later. By the end of the evening he also got 10 female numbers. He said the reason he is talking about this is his fear that his grown daughter may run into a "DL" brother and never know.
These men are masters in the art of lying and living that double life. His wife thought it was wonderful that he worked so hard in the church with different men on different projects right up to the time he had to tell her he was HIV positive. This, needless to say, destroyed his family and his marriage. He has 3 grown children who now have to live with the knowledge that their father gave their mother HIV and possibly AIDS. I know of one man in my own church who is a "DL" brother and has AIDS. (Because what you do on the "DL" will come out in the light) J.L. mentions that this is a widespread epidemic here in Charleston.
I went on the web site and looked up several references on HIV/AIDS in the South. The numbers are showing whites are going down but African Americans are going up &up...mostly heterosexual African American women. I have been asking myself all week...what is this world coming to? When is God going to say....this is enough. This is truly the work of the enemy! Ladies, this is also praying time. I have shared this with my youngest daughter too! I'm going to pass this message to as many females I know and I pray you do the same.
Below are some web sites that you may find interesting. Once we understand that HIV/AIDS is not something that is just happening in Africa, that it is preventable, and that we as black women understand the importance of knowledge on the subject then maybe we can make a difference. The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.

me
April 17 2004, 12:55AM

Very good article.

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 1:38AM

I saw the Oprah show today. In fact, I taped it and just finished watching it a few minutes ago. I am of two minds about the show and the whole DL topic. I agree with Keith that this is a oversimplification by the media of a complex problem. *Shockers* I haven't seen any statistical data showing DL men are more responsible for the sky-high HIV rates among black women, than say drug abuse or general unprotected promiscuous behavior. On the other hand, it would be ridiculous to assume that this phenomenon(which is as ancient as the world) isn't having an impact.

I'm disturbed by the general defensiveness of some of the respondents on this site. Some people seem to be more outraged with Oprah than with the men taking part in this behavior. And, I do put the lion's share on these men and not the women they're having sex with. Yes, we all should use protection everytime, but many of these men are in long term relationships or marraiges. If the woman is already on oral contraceptives, why would she assume she has anything to fear from her supposedly 'faithful' husband of 10 years?!!

My major problem with the show was the general hang-up about labels instead of focusing on the behavior. There were so many issues to tackle it just seemed chaotic, hurried and generally confusing. Phil Reed was easily the best guest. He really provided a balanced and reasonable voice amid the sometime sensationalism. I think the most important point made on the show was the unwillingness of many of these DL men to acknowledge their sexual orientation due to the high level of homophobia within the black community. Unfortunately, they didn't touch on the black church.

For all the people pissed off at Oprah and the media in general for sensationalizing this topic, perhaps we should contact Oprah (she's on the web) and suggest she does a follow-up show on the topic of gay sexuality in the Black community. Keith, I can see you on TV already. LOL Much of the problem of black gay invisibility, is our own unwillingness to speak up. We bitch about white gay organizations excluding us, but many of us can't even be open with our own lives and would never dream of showing up to a meeting of one of these GAY organizations.

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 1:38AM

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 1:39AM

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 4:03AM

Phoenix
April 17 2004, 4:08AM

Sorry that I have multiple posts of the same thing. When I tried to post it gave me a multiple error message. By the time it went through, I saw that it had posted numerous times. Sorry, Keith.

DL Man
April 17 2004, 1:25PM

Fuck dem hoes. Now they won't be jock'n me so much. Vamps. Less money dem bitches gonna hit me for.

I thought the show was great. Best point made: "It takes two people to transmit a disease."

Not one woman has ever asked me to wear a condom, but I can't keep them bitches off my dick.

Oprah should quote that.

Dani
April 17 2004, 1:30PM

I personally didn't like JL's representation of the "DL" male. I think his comments on yesterday will cause more undue stress between the relationships of heterosexuals and homosexuals. I do believe that there is no in between in the minds of heterosexuals. Some feel that you are either Gay or Straight, no gray area. :-)

Mike
April 17 2004, 2:34PM

I watched the show with a lot of interest. I felt that there should have been representation of the white men who are doing the same thing and have for years.
I'm a gwm who volunteers for an AIDS organization and I see a lot of swm who are IV drug users being prostitutes to raise money for their drugs and then going home to their women.
The DL is not new, nor is it a black phenomenon.
Although I am unhappy about there being another label (and one that is aimed at blacks)I am happy to see the truth being shown even if someone is making mega bucks by it.
The truth has to come out, we are all sexual and need to be sexually responsible.

Da D.L. Crib
April 17 2004, 3:03PM

I was not very impressed by Mr. King on The Oprah Show. I sensed that he was disingenuous as to his motivations. He claimed he wrote the expose to prevent women such as his daughter from falling prey to people like him, yet it seems that he has not changed his behavior.

He did not want to use the word �dating� guys, which I found curious. Obviously, he is in the denial about his sexuality. The other brothers they interviewed seemed a little more forthright. If you have sexual relations with both men and women, then you are bisexual. To the straight population, that is as good as gay and I can understand why bisexual people may have a conflict and choose not to identify themselves as bisexuals.

Engaging in anonymous sex after you turn thirty habitually would lead one to believe that there is a problem. As one matures physically and socially, one should mature sexually as well. One may have multiple partners with the hope of settling down but if the goal is just to have the thrill of having someone new and not connect on a mental as well as physical level, then that might suggest one has other issues.

As far as contracting STD�s, someone once said that if you are on the market for sex you should use the upper most precautions with your partner and treat them as if they have an STD until you know them. As demonstrated by Mr. King though, they may still lie.

I hope that besides all the hoopla that transpired that the audience heard that this has been going on for a while and is not new. As they explained, what is new is the spike in HIV cases. A theory was hinted at, which I subscribe to, that since HIV is not the immediate death sentence that it once was, people have relaxed and are engaging in risky activities again. What amazes me is that the guys say that they �love� the women they are with but continue to put their loved one at risk by not protecting themselves when they have relations with other people. If this is love I would like to know their definition of not being in love.

cmoney
April 17 2004, 3:30PM

How can these DL men love their women when they don't even love themselves enough to admit who they are? They are whacked, to use a medical term. When they learn to love themselves enough to be honest with who they are and what they do, then and only then, can they really begin to love someone else. Tina Turner once asked: "What's love got to do with it?"
The answer: Everything.

slacky
April 17 2004, 3:34PM

The Oprah episode SUCKED! It was a waste of time. I too, was pissed that no real discussion was brought up about how homophobic the Black Church & a good portion of Afro/Caribbean people are. That is why these guys are on the DL. The pressure to be "straight" when you are not is what is killing blacks. If there wasn't such a stigma for being attracted to the same sex, most of these DL brothas would really be SGL brothas. The typical view of the snap dragon, highly fem gay guys is all you see on T.V and movies. I hate it for the unbalance. Theses types do exist, but until society reflects the diversity of gay people, many Brothas will never embrase being "gay." JL King was whack!I would never read his book. DL men are just punks that conform to family & social pressures. The women in their lives are just COVER GIRLS and I don't mean the cosmetic. Who you choose to be gratified by, reflects your orientation in my opinion.Don't most do the experimental thing during puberty years? Come on now, let's be true to ourselves.

Detroit Rob
April 17 2004, 3:48PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I too saw the Oprah Show! I was shocked when Oprah said at the beginning of the show that the DL men are the reason why black women are getting HIV in record numbers! That was truely PRESUMPTUOUS and IRRESPONDSIBLE on her behalf!!
HIV has always been associated with gay men wether they were black or white! Yes it started with the gay white male and spread. People link it's origin to UNPROTECTED ANAL SEX. Well men and women have been doing that with each other for CENTURIES!!! Where was HIV then? ANAL SEX is nothing NEW with STRAIGHT PEOPLE or GAY MEN! HIV reared it's ugly head in 1980!! Why then?
Bisexual and DL men have been around for centuries, especailly in EUROPEAN COUNTRIES!! It doesn't matter what they called it was the same thing, cheating on your wife or girlfriend with another man, yet you are living a presumbaly straight life! Why wasn't HIV spreading then?
I don't believe every CONSPIRACY THEORY I read or here about, but some of them you just can't ignore!! Especially when it's about your community! People seem to have forgotten about THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT!! THEY PURPOSELY INFECTED BLACK MEN WITH SYPHILIS AND SENT THEM HOME TO THEIR WIVES AND GIRLFRIENDS NOT KNOWING WHAT BEEN DONE TO THEM AND THEY WERE NEVER TREATED FOR THE DECEASE AND OF COURSE IT SPREAD AT A RAPID RATE!!!! AND THAT WAS DONE BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT, HOSPITALS and DOCTORS!!!
Well, whose to say that these same RACIST, INHUMANE PEOPLE, wouldn't try something else on a LARGER, more DEVASTING, yet EFFECTIVE SCALE!! It worked the first time why wouldn't work in the late 70's, 80's or 90's. WE had more UNITY in our community in the 20's 30's 40's and 60's then we ever had!!!! They could have injected those 400 men in Tuskegee with HIV then and they would have never known it and or course it would have spread at a rapid rate because we only make 12-13% of the UNITED STATES POPULUS and any cumulative deceases spread at a much faster rate in a minority poor poplation because they would tend to stay inside there own SEXUAL NETWORK!!! NOW who hates INTERACAIL RELATIONSHIPS MORE WHITES or BLACKS!! Some of them probaly already know what happen to us "and that's why" they move as far from our people as they can get!!
Back to the DL issue and HIV in black women! Well, I'm sorry but the world we live in has changed. There are just as many women sleeping around as men and some of them are married with children too!! SEX PROMISCUITY AND UNPROTECTED SEX is the main reason for the on going spreading of that MAN MADE VIRUS!! I'm not excusing the DL behavior and it's contributing factors no more, than I'm excusing black women who sleep around and cheat on their husbands and boyfriends or any man or woman that would cheat on on their spouse or partner in life!!
The best way to conquer is to divid and turn people against each other while the real CULPRIT and VILLAIN gets away with MURDER and GENOSIDE in the first degree!!!!
The DL men is found NOT GUILTY of mass spreading of HIV to black women for lack of evidence!!! Court and the DL issue is AJOURNED.

Larry
April 17 2004, 4:35PM

"i have never been a fan of oprah
because she has more power than anyone else in america because mainstream white america adores her and actually listens to her and yet
she has never had anything real to say"

----Alicia

Apparently you were not watching when she devoted her theme for an entire year to racism in America?

Laura
April 17 2004, 5:56PM

"Bisexual and DL men have been around for centuries, especailly in EUROPEAN COUNTRIES!!"

...and Middle Eastern countries and Latin American countries and China and India and...

AZAAN
April 18 2004, 12:18AM

I watched the Oprah show last night. I think the main thing that should have been voiced is why these men are on the DL. Black Americas generational ignorance and homphobia should have discussed. This is the sole reason they are on the DL!

jaymillionaire
April 18 2004, 12:51AM

Sorry folks, The Oprah Show only last one hour. I know you want every philisophical reason why, what, where, how the DL man operates, but thats not going to happen on a talk show.

Oprah accomplished substantial goal, black women everywhere are now asking their mates to take HIV test (my mom said it was the topic of discussion at work).

I am appalled at the vast denial spread across this website. AIDS in the black community is a HEALTH EMERGENCY.

AGAIN.

AIDS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS A HEALTH EMERGENCY.

Black women are 23 times more likely than white women to become infected with HIV (and its not because of the damn needles). For the people on the site to bash Oprah and Mr. King (making his money the same way Keith makes his) for shedding a light on the AIDS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY AS A HEALTH ISSUE is as ignorant as the pulpit clowns as we despise so much.

Let me explain why Keith is criticizing Oprah: He wants the attention placed on black couples who are getting registered at the local Macy's. But Keith let me ask you this:

What is the ratio between black same sex couples, and black women contracting HIV from DL men? The issue is not how many black male same sex long term relationships there are. THAT IS NOT A HEALTH EMERGENCY. The point is we (as black men) are in a unabashadely selfish-sexual- perverse- trance where anything goes including unsafe sex, lying, cheating and pimping. If you don't believe me:

Watch a rap video.

Marlon
April 18 2004, 10:17AM

Watch Oprah�s �After The Show�, she and her audience are still trying to define DL. A female told King he�s in denial because same sex activity repeatedly--not once or twice--is Gay. King didn�t respond, andKing (an HIV activist) should�ve been better prepared; he caused frenzy over semantics. When educating adults on gay issues ---YA GOTTA SIMPLIFY. In comparison, try understanding an Asian-European subculture, when the majority of us couldn�t care less, eat Asian occasionally, and familiar watching Connie Chong.

Therefore, Bottom line�this is what your average Joe will generalize after Oprah: (don�t forget Oprah is viewed in 106+ international markets)
All black men are gay.
All black gay men have AIDS.
All black men are responsible for women contracting AIDS.

If you think your average fellow human doesn�t generalize and utilizes critical thinking�You�re Wrong! Internationally is more complicated�some folk abroad only witness of the African American is from MTV.

Kwei
April 18 2004, 10:35AM

If enough of us contact Oprah, I'm sure her producers might consider a counterpoint to what was shown today. I'm sure if she did a show pissing off the church, they wouldn't have any problem making their voices heard. Furthermore, if we think Oprah and the other voices are ignorant of this subject, how will they know any differently, if we don't correct their misinformation?!
Posted by: Phoenix at April 17, 2004 01:38 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I AGREE WITH PHOENIX. THE SHOW WAS CHAOTIC AND CONFUSING AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHILL WILSON WHO WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO SPOKE CLEARLY AND WISELY, EVERYTHING ELSE SEEMED DESIGNED JUST TO SHOCK PEOPLE AND SENSATIONALIZE. AND NOW THE CLAIM THAT WHITE MEN ARE COMING INTO THE BLACK COMMUNITY FOR UNPROTECTED SEX AND EVENTUALLY WILL TAKE HIV BACK TO THEIR WHITE WIVES? MY GOD, THAT SEEMED LIKE SUCH A BLATANT ATTEMPT TO GET WHITE WOMEN TO BUY THE BOOK I WAS LITERALLY SHOCKED. THE PROGRAM WAS A HORRIBLE MESS. IT ATTEMPTED TO DEAL WITH SO MUCH IN UNDER ONE HOUR AND LEFT THINGS MUDDY AND BEWILDERING. WE REALLY NEED TO CONTACT OPRAH AND WE NEED A FOLLOW-UP SHOW WITH DR. ANTHONY FAUCI OF THE CDC, KEITH BOYKIN AND PHILL WILSON. I AM NOT SAYING DL IS NOT A PROBLEM, BUT THAT THE WAY IT WAS DEALT WITH ON OPRAH WAS TOO MUCH OF A MARKETING TOOL FOR THE BOOK WITH SUPERFICIAL AND SOMETIMES IRRESPONSIBLE TREATMENT OF THE PROBLEM.

Marlon
April 18 2004, 10:44AM

JayMill�LOL!
I don�t know Keith personally, but on this Webboard he�s a facilitator�not an indoctrinator. There are strong critical thinkers on this Webboard.

JayMill�YES�It is a health emergency. Did you see DL Man�s post, �Not one woman has ever asked me to wear a condom, but I can't keep them bitches off my dick.�

Thanks for the honesty DL Man!
I�m not surprised. Too many women think ElynnHarris DL character behaviors are fictitious. Unfortunately, attracting and keeping a �good Man� is so tuff that DL, gay, STD, HIV, ect.. issues become secondary. We all know women who are Desperate for a �good man,� but will settle for �a man.�
JayMill�LOL!

Kwei�-thanks for screaming at us�-my letter is in progress.:-)

Larry
April 18 2004, 11:30AM

Although I agree with Jaymill that there is a definite health emergency in the black community, I agree with most of the posters here on how the issue was handled.

It is never just enough to "blow the whistle" if the dialogue is going to be irresponsible and sensational as has been pointed out numerous times.

My major problems with the show were that:

1)The issue of brothers with wives and girlfriends having sex in prison and bringing HIV home was NEVER truly discussed.

- There is a gargantuan number of imprisoned brothers
- Prisons won't give out condoms b/c they say they do not want to promote sex
- What they are in denial about is the fact that sex needs no promotion, and like eating, breathing, and using the bathroom will happen as long as two people with a mutual sexual attraction (or on person with an attraction and enough power over the 2nd) are in contact

What are the demographics of the str8 women getting the most HIV cases? I would gamble that the numbers are the highest in low income, inner city and rural areas---areas that also have the lions share of brothers who are in and out of the jail and prison system.

Homosexual/DL/bisexual brothers are existent in ALL demographics. If they are truly the primary cause of the problem then women of ALL demographics should be getting the virus equally

2) I wanted to jump on stage and bust J.L. in his shit and knock his whole grill out when he started talk about white boys coming to the hood for black dick

A) Most black men that deal with white boys are oreo/uncle tom blacks that don't deal with black men

B) Was it not the WHITE gay community that got this whole party started in the first place, and now magically BLACKS are at fault for their unsuspecting wives and girlfriends being infected??? NIGGA PLEASE.

C) Last I checked, the grossest and most "out there" sexual behaviors (beastiality, bare-back sex rings, fisting, etc.) are still the domains of white people. Not that there aren't any black people into these things.......but by and large most bruthas I know are pretty much into good old fashion fuckin......not dogs and leather and brothels.

I'm going to Oprah's site right now to request a follow up........I hope other gay brothers and sisters will do the same.

Larry
April 18 2004, 11:42AM

.......... 'scuse me ya'll.......this issue done hit a damn nerve and I got somehtin else to say...

Gay people are only a certain percentage of the population. Experts say around 10% (never proven but lets just flow with it).

Last I checked, part of the definition of being gay was not being sexually attracted to women. I know a LOT of men who front like they are "bisexual" etc. but in REALITY they ain't had pussy since pussy had them. Then there are the ones who actually attempt it but have sexual dysfunction problems.

The group that is left over, those who may TRULY be bisexual (IMO like 5% of the people who claim to be) and successfully have not only sex but UNPROTECTED sex with both groups......they are not a big enough population to cause this kind of an epidemic.....especially when the women are not passing the disease to each other...the cycle ends with them. A epidemics don't come from populations that small in that kind of a close circuit. You need a larger group.

Hence the arrow is pointed again to brothers who are incarcerated. They get plenty of dick and booty while locked up, then get to come out and have free access to women like nothing happened.

And if my hypothesis is correct about the types of demographics (beyond just race) that the numbers are probably the highest end, these will be women with less access to healthcare, treatment, and education regarding their wellbeing.......as well as more than likely having less self worth on the average and more allowing brothas to "do whateva" (e.g. no condom sex-----case in point, the alarming teen pregnancy rates in these same demographic grups).

Kwei
April 18 2004, 12:07PM

Larry - I think you are bringing up a very very important point on this issue of incarcerated black males. There is a staggering population of imprisoned BM, and you are right that this crazy, racist prison-industrial complex is a breeding ground for HIV, especially in the regard of not providing protection for inmates. This is something I'm going to look into as well, because we may be missing a big piece of the puzzle. Very good thinking, Larry. Man, this is getting complicated!

Kwei
April 18 2004, 12:10PM

I wanted to jump on stage and bust J.L. in his shit and knock his whole grill out when he started talk about white boys coming to the hood for black dick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I gotta agree with you there - that was so disingenuous and an obvious scare tactic. I thought it was shameful and embarrassing

DB
April 18 2004, 4:00PM

Keith, this article was on point. I would like to note that it's shows and articles of negativity that keep so many bisexual men in the closet. Where is the love? It saddens me that Oprah would not make this show more positive, but it's over and done now. It will be interesting to see how this topic rears its head again in the future. Keep up the good work!

Leo Wilton, Ph.D.
April 18 2004, 4:58PM

Right on point Keith. Clearly, this focus on Black men is about structural levels of violence that Black men experience on a routine basis.

Perhaps, it may be more interesting for White people (and people of color too) who like sensation to conduct some research on why White heterosexual men, who are "protected" by their privileges, expose young men of color (who engage in commercial sex work) to sexually transmitted infections including HIV.

Research demonstrates that young Black and Latino MSM who engage in "surival sex" or commercial sex work get paid more money to engage in unprotected sex. That's a crime. Take a tour down Christopher Street and just count how many White men in business suits engage with young Black and Latino men in terms of commercial sex work.

Let's be clear: There's no focus on the role of structural forms of violence that Black men experience on multiple levels (i.e. institutionalized racism, homophobia, AIDS-phobia, poverty). Historically, it has always been more convenient to pathologize Black people's behavior (i.e. biological determinism, cultural deprivation, etc.). Just check out the Moynihan Report from the 1960s.

Above all, what I call for is a paradigm shift that moves the focus from individals to the structural forces that have an impact in Black people's lives. Perhaps, that is more threatening for the status quo.

Leo Wilton, Ph.D.

ML
April 18 2004, 5:27PM

We have all forgotten two things: bisexuality is actually a natural human inclination. The fact that more black men are experiencing it is actually a good thing. The fact that we are doing so in a careless manner is not. I too know DL brothas but don't know them to be practicers of unsafe sex. In addition, I don't know them to be positive. I think the problem may have more to do with black women's promiscuity. I know several several sistahs--whether they are in relationships or not--who commonly get it on with brothas they don't know because they have big dicks or some other physical feature that their mate lacks. Sistahs are creepin' big time! Its real yall.

jaymillionaire
April 18 2004, 5:47PM

"Where is the love? It saddens me that Oprah would not make this show more positive, but it's over and done now."

--DB

How can you spin skyrocketing HIV infection rates of unsuspecting black women into something positive? The only positive to come out of the show is the spousal communication which came from it.

ATTENTION BLACK MEN:

I know this is a bitter pill to swallow(especially for those of us who are out and educated), however we must face facts before we face our doom (ie ethnic cleansing, genocide)AIDS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS A HEALTH EMERGENCY (NOT A HEALTH PROBLEM).

Forget about writing letters to Oprah, and start writing letters to your boy-toys' wife(wives)!

Kabanga
April 18 2004, 7:07PM

Hi CMoney,

" Kabanga's observation about the effect of incarceration on the spread of HIV is on point. Many of these so-called DL brothers were infected in jail by having sex with another man. Most, if not all prisons, refuse to provide condoms to the inmates since, in their opinion, they don't want to encourage sex. "

Thanks. On top of that, they can't even keep drugs out of prison.

But to get back to the Avert.org website, at http://www.avert.org/usastatr.htm

They list AIDS cases and exposure by race and origin of infection.

White Male (% of total)

Gay Sex 237,610 (73.5%)
IV Drug use 30,247 (9.3%)
Gay Sex + IV drug use 27,264 (8.4%
Straight 6,521 (2.0%)
Total 323,015 (100.0%)

Black Male (% of total)

Gay Sex 88,130 (36.7%)
IV Drug use 77,577 (32.3%)
Gay Sex + IV drug use 17,824 (7.4%)
Straight 21,706 (9.0%)
Total 239,888 (100.0%)

Note that the percentage of men with AIDS who were infected through IV drug use and white were only 9.3% of the total, but for black men it was 32.3%. Well over three times the percentage - and that's where intervention has to be focused.

Detroit Rob
April 18 2004, 7:55PM

Larry, CMoney, Marlon, and Koola Boof, you all are right on point! Marlon I especially like what you said about people GENERALIZING all BLACKMEN now! That was one of my main concerns! As a black man we already have enough HURLDES, STIGMAS, STEREOTYPES, and GENERALIZATIONS to overcome, now we have yet another!! Like you said Larry this shit has been around in the white community for a long time where was the media hype then! In support to what CMONEY said, black women can be just as promiscous as men and they can pass the virus to unsuppecting men!! Hell we can get other STD's from women why can't we get HIV from them too. Cheating is cheating and anyone can spread infectious deceases to anyone! Ladies please this isn't an attack on your virtue but I'm sure you know some women out there that sleep around!! I wonder how much HIV was spreaded during the FREAK NICK days in ATL over the years!!!
Please don't anyone evere forget about the TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT!! There is a whole lot more to HIV than we all know!

Detroit Rob
April 18 2004, 10:23PM

About JL, he is a brother that is truely confused! When I watched the after show the audience sounded more informed than he did. Oprah changed her begining statement from "this is the reason why so many black women are getting HIV". To "this is one of the reasons why black women are getting HIV".
JL King is a gay black man that should have stayed single until he found himself! He said that all of his sexual conquest was with men. But he said he wasn't gay and neither was the rest of DL MEN. Well to me that makes him gay as HELL! He could have had sex with a easy woman. I wonder if he didn't get caught by his wife would he had came clean on his own! I don't think so!
I think his wife is behind this crusade to educate and save her black sister's from "The "EVIL DL BROTHER". She has every right to be angry and devasted about someone she thought was true! But let us remember what they say about a woman scroned! She made him the messenger because he was the culprit! But some of the things being said are truely unfair to blackmen! Not all brothers get down like that! Not even the majority of them do! Now BROTHERS across America are going to be GENERALIZED by this because these men don't fit into the typical role of being gay! Women sleep around too. They spread STD"S too. They all aren't victims of the "DL BROTHER SYNDROM" Some of them are guilty of infecting some blackmen! But that's not being addressed on any of the talk shows that I saw!Or is it being addressed by the CDC! SEXUAL PRMISCUITY on the behalf of both men and women isn't really being addressed. She's angry and she's using him to crucify all black men for his own BETRAYTAL to their family!! She probaly threaten a civil suit against him! If she did she would have won becuase he exposed her to the possiblity HIV! A lot of the things he's talking about sounds like there coming straight from a angry woman. He isn't very well informed either I was truely disappointed. Because his only focos his the black man and not the black woman and her own respondsiblity to HIV infection rates in our community, wether there are DL BROTHERS in the world or not! And not all of the DL BROTHERS are HIV+! AND YES YOU CAN BE ON THE DL AND NOT HAVE SEX WITH MEN. Being on the DOWN LOW means just keeping it to your self and not leting the rest of the world know your business. That could be a man and a woman keeping their relationship a secret for what ever reason or two none promiscous closeted gay people keeping their relationship a secret! The term isn't new nor is it exculsive to men who cheat on women with other men!

cmoney
April 18 2004, 10:28PM

I am glad that everyone is thinking about this subject. Is this a "teachable moment" as they say in education circles? How do we move from thoughts to taking action to stop this killer phenomenon?
Do we all go out, pick up DL, rough trade and turn that quickie sex session into a safe sex workshop? Doesn't sound too romantic and I, like many, don't want to be bothered with the confused types. How do you sneak this topic into casual conversation with straight women? As trifling as Oprah's show was, at least she has people talking. It's a start, but man, we have our work cut out for us.
Any suggestions?

stuckinthesouth
April 18 2004, 11:01PM

Although I think that the medias intentions do not match those of Mr.King (originally), I noticed the co-author E. Lynn Harris has written some very positive fiction about bisexual relations. However, in my agreement with you, this coverage will do nothing more than encourage straight married black women to futher advance a social hate and isolation of gay men in their circles. I hear new urban and suburban tales coming from this story. Thanks Oprah for your slighted coverage on this subject.. Makes me wonder if you and Dr. Phil are engaged? When will we be able to throw the rice? Have a steak on me... BTY its not all about color... I am white and have many black male straight friends..... married and single...( just a note for the ones that like to read lables..)

TK 2000
April 18 2004, 11:08PM

Words cannot express how much I appreciate all the comments made in this article and on this message board. I am now a Christian, but was not "born" and "raised" in the church. I have been involved in risky activities as a heterosexual female, where any punishment I could have received would've been entirely my fault. I feel that sexuality (gay or straight), as well as other issues, are not clearly addressed in today's church. People can be told all day that they need to pray, to read their Bible more or to deny their desires, but the Black church needs to go back to its roots and address the needs of the community. Only then will people take ownership of what happens to their health and how they can help somebody else get informed.
I also feel compelled to apologize for every Christian who has ever acted with hate or worse, indifference, toward the pain of the gay/bisexual Black man. As a people, time is long overdue for us to be unified, and responsibly seek solutions that will end the spread of STDs, homophobia and anything else that would hinder our growth and progress in the community and world at large.

With love...to all people who bleed when pricked.

TK 2000
April 18 2004, 11:08PM

With love...to all people who bleed when pricked.

FRE
April 18 2004, 11:33PM

TK 2000, you stated, "I also feel compelled to apologize for every Christian who has ever acted with hate or worse, indifference, toward the pain of the gay/bisexual Black man."

Do you think that only black men have suffered pain because of actions by some Christians? What about red, yellow, brown, and white men?

I assume that the oversight was not intended.

Troy
April 19 2004, 8:59AM

Damn, 83 and more messages to come! Wow!
A zillion emails on this show! WOw!
Must be something to it...hmmm...must be somebody wants to finally come out and tell some truths for a change; THE DEAD HAS ARISEN?
Uh oh! Looky here, the porn industry has been struck by an HIV/AIDS scare quarantine???
Well, well, well, I'd say the time to really start paying the piper is today, long overdue!
Solution; Education, protection, communication.
If you're not doing all three the gig is up whether you are gay straight DL or inbetween.
From the looks of these postings and the gabillion emails I got on this looks like J.L. King's book is a bestseller. Wonder if we need a actual movie of this one?

I Wonder if an actual step toward HIV prevention cure and change for better will happen...Wonder if any proceeds from J.L. King's book will help the very same victims of the psuedo D.L.-ism will get any benefit out of it? Or was it all about a dollar again??

aquafemme2003
April 19 2004, 9:37AM

Kudos for addressing this. I find it nothing short of mindboggling that America is so fascinated with the DL. Straight people can really be funny...they're like white folk with a new word or a dance. Just discovering "The snake" in 1998 and shit. But anyway, I think that this is just the latest, greatest form of homophobia- just another attempt to make it a gay men's disease. Clearly, if these women were asking men to put on condoms, who they just had sex with would not be such a literally life or death issue. That's the bottom line and it's time we start facing that fact. As a feminist-oriented woman, I know it is an unpopular statement but I'm going to make it: women need to hold the brunt of the responsibility for their own sexual protection. At the end of the day, at the very least, heterosexual women are going to be the one's knocked up. They're going to be the one's struggling to feed themself and a baby on a minimal salary. And they're going to be the statistics. So please, use a damned condom! Let me also say, that I think this is being vaunted as the secret cause of AIDS because people want to think it's an abnormal disease that happens to "abnormal" people. They don't want to believe that straight sex can cause it. Well believe it. Frankly, when I see a pregnant woman sometimes I think "damn, I hope she had an HIV test". Just being real.

Doctor
April 19 2004, 11:20AM

Here are a few misconceptions about the DL.

1. All men on the DL have wives or girlfriends.

Some of them will lie to another man about having a wife or girlfriend because that's what another DL man maybe looking for at the time.

2. Many men on the DL are closeted bisexuals.

Some men on the DL are closeted gay men that are afraid to come out, and they might even go from girlfriend to girlfriend NOT HAVING SEX but just simply using them for a smoke screen and when the issue of sex arises, they just cut the women lose, and their friends and family simply think that they're PLAYERS!

3. All men on the DL are men with wives or girlfriends and are promiscous with other men.

Some of these men are not looking for casual sex some of them find a partner that they can be monogamous with and just keep their relationship private, whether they have a woman in their life at the time or not.

4. Finally DL men don't use protection!

Some DL men use protection on a regular basis, even if they are promiscous and go to what is called a SAFE SEX DL PARTY!

J
April 19 2004, 11:24AM

Keith,

Although raise some valid points, it's important for you to realize that black women are still staggering from this whole issue. Always remember there are no victims in life. Ur absolute correct when u say people have to protect themselves. But when someone is outright deceptive and is engaging in high risk sexual behaviour their severe consequences. I am a straight black male and this information is very shocking to me. Yes Oprah could have done more to help us understand a group of phonies but first things first. And that's to make this so-called new phenomenon known. People must own up to who they are and at least protect themselves.

Regan DuCasse
April 19 2004, 11:46AM

About twelve years ago I was a hotline volunteer for AIDS Project LA-I was concerned about the rise of infection in the black population...period. Once Magic Johnson disclosed his HIV, our phones exploded. Johnson went on a campaign about awareness and prevention of the disease and still models for protease inhibitor ads.
There was a lot missing. Like how many other people HE infected and who are now dead.
He could have killed his wife and first born son. Little was said about the risk he put them in.
The down low focus is trying to highlight that gay black life is dangerous unto itself and ignores that most of the problem is the stigma of being gay...and less stigma on being PROMISCUOUS, whether you're gay or not.
Pop culture is ALL about gettin' some and from multiple partners and monogamy is treated like the problem.
Most black young people don't even TRY to opt for marriage before children.
Marriage licensing is STILL precluded by a blood test for disease.
I had to argue with a brother on the hotline that a condom was his only hope if he wanted to avoid HIV.
I told him that sex without a condom was like riding in a car without a seatbelt.
Shit will happen, so why heighten the odds when you don't have to? He was really, really, really wanting me to give him permission to have sex without protection.
I shouldn't have had to beg HIM to do the right thing!
The unfortunate thing is that he was typical. The sad average.
And the price is the loss of young and vital people and risk to their children from disease and the orphanage.
It's inexcusable to NOT prevent what could so easily be prevented!

D from the Uk
April 19 2004, 12:50PM

To each person that expressed an opinion thank you. I took all of the views on-board before mailing and feel I gained a greater perspective on the issues surrounding DL Black men. I did not see the show but the concept of the DL Brother is something I often think about. For example, what exactly constitutes being on the DL?

I'm a 23yr old black male who to the greater population blends in with heterosexual men and I'm not open with everyone I meet. At present I am still finding myself preference-wise. The label 'DL' is not a compliment nor is the term 'gay' in Black culture. In fact to a straight Black man it seems to be the worst insult he could be given. Almost emasculating, that's kind of what the word means to me. I date and have slept with and have loved both sexes and I've recently admitted to myself that I probably will always feel like this. I've told my Mom and my four best friends but I have not come out and defined myself to everybody and their mama. Also, when explaining my situation to my people, I did not say that I was Gay or Straight or Bi-sexual. I said I had an un-fixed sexual preference, and that my sexuality was where I sat within my preference. If we're here to keep it real then that's the truth I'm not gonna lie to ya! I feel though my reluctance to define myself by cliched terms are for the same reasons DL Black men do not identify themselves as gay. I know what I am but what would YOU say that makes me, am I DL to u?

The Black community on a whole does not support, condone nor empathise with same-sex attraction or Love. Gay people don't believe Bi-sexuals are tellin the truth. And that's the concern. When I was at an earlier stage in my journey it dawned on me that to openly define myself as Gay meant divorcing myself from everything I loved and felt a part of about the Black community. And also, why are people so perplexed by the self loathing this kind of brother might feel? This kind of brother remains a part of the community that hates him. What is he to do? Take exile from who is as a person simply because he (occasionally) loves men? This man is 'Black' before he is any other label. There is nowhere for this kind of brother to turn except inside himself. That is where the self-analysis stems from and the self-hatred begins. And this hate isn't a pre-determinate, this hate is brewed and cultivated by the faces we identify as our own, Black faces.

Let's start a fresh. There is much power in words and for a young, masculine, black man who is capable of loving another man, for one I don't identify with the labels we're given to choose from. To the uninformed I'm in the middle, yet to identify with the term 'Bi-sexual' creates the impression that I would sleep with anything. I know I love and respect women as a gender and indeed I have loved a woman deeply in a past relationship. Why is it that the general consensus of this site assumes someone like me is in denial? Who says I have to make a choice as long as I conduct my relationships one at a time? If DL men are in denial, how do they get it up for their female partner(s) in the first place?

Culpability for the spread of HIV and AIDS cannot be relegated to DL Black men. Safe sex should be a gender-less, colour-less, universal concern for all as AIDS is a HUMAN affliction that unlike society does not discriminate. Damn, if you bleed let me tell you you're at risk bt then we know that...don't we? My guess is as Black people we don't. Blame a lack of resources and education but I have lost count of the amount of straight men, especially though not exclusively, Black men who will unabashedly lay culpability with gay people for the creation and spread of AIDS but think nothing of sleeping with 3-4 women outside of their marriages/relationships, unprotected, dropping babies here, there and everywhere. Human beings are capable of carrying AIDS regardless of their sexual leaning, and I really feel there is a lack of education in the Black community as to how best to protect themselves against STD in general.

To basically make my feelings clear, I'm honest and safe with every man and woman [I have sex with] but I think until Black culture stops burying it's head in the sand, regarding Same-sex Sex and Relationships as having no place in Black culture, DL behaviour will continue to be de rigeur for this kind of man. Sexuality is a complex issue that talk of sexual preference barely skirts. What is lacking is talk and truth of what it truly means to be be Black, Male and Gay. That it really is no different to being Black, Male and Straight except for the fact that you're bedding down with your own. In the meantime we need to focus our attentions on the new generation of young people Gay, Straight or otherwise educating them on safe-sex, relationships, sexual preference, spiritually (as opposed to religion) and love and self-love (as opposed to marriage). The climate I envision that approach creating is the only environment I can ever envisage a DL brother foremost loving himself and his community loving him back.

Let me know if you agree with me on this.

William Gordon Jr
April 19 2004, 12:59PM

Please look at the statistics, and then you will see that since the late 1990's the greatest source of infection for women was rooted in being injection drug users, partners of injection drug users, or in a sexual network in which injection drug use occurs. Also, much work hasn't been done in this realm, but if men solicit sex workers and have a particular one, the longer they relate the less likely they are to use a condom. This is the case although sex workers tend to be quite diligent about using protection, until that relationship alters. Also, women and men on the whole seem to like to defer disease on others, especially when they are in long term relationships (including marriage). HIV is still falaciously considered a disease of promiscuity. The thing is promiscuity is about perspective (I am monogamous, therefore my partner must be too). The stats on the IV drug using population of black men should be the clue, and add to that the tons of unprotected sex (consensual or not) that occurs in prison, and the dl men really become a drop in the bucket compared to the other stats.

Lex have safe Sex
April 19 2004, 1:12PM

The entire idea just baffles me that someone can see it as being okay to participate in such a deviant, manipulative, reckless, and selfish behavior. The term consensual sex simply means to knowingly and willfully part taking in sexual activity. But I see nothing consensual about living on the DL. If you want to sleep with men , FINE, leave me and all the other woman like me all(do not want to be in a relationship with a man having or have had sex with other men) alone. We should be inform of such activities whether we engaged in "safe" sex or not is irrelavant. If I am not mistaken the only 100% "safe" sex is no sex at all. In this day and age, no matter what your sexual orientation, you can not play Russian Roulette with your life or unknowingly other people's lives like that. When someone else's sexual preference violate my right of choice : to either participate and heed precation or just steer far away from it, I consider that to be really LOWDOWN. I have three sons to raise and it would be devastating to lose my life because some man was confused or in denial about himself because my boys have no one but me. And whoever it was trying to blame women for not protecting themselves really does not have anything to do with it. Whatever you do, are doing, or have done should be told to each prospective partner so they may have a choice in the matter. Think about it, you may be a father some day or you may be a father now would you want your children living in a world with the type of odds you're dishing out by living on the DL. To me it just equals a total lack of respect for self and/or others to violate that kind of trust. It's just attempted homicide, or shall I say genocide. Think about that DL Brothers.

Troy
April 19 2004, 1:22PM

The real title of his book should of been "Good Gossip with My Homegirl, ---Shhh!"

Aint nothing new or shocking about this except now there's AIDS and HIV to get, along with all the other sexually transmitted diseases being and have been passed around for as long as time began.

Nobody wants to tell the truth that's the real problem and so here we are still arguing and blaming everything and everyone except our own damn selves.

Who we going to blame when's there no one here left....what happens then?

carl68
April 19 2004, 1:27PM

The dialogue is all to important ... I have been "out" since college, but know many who are still "in" (with girlfreinds, etc.) ... It's frustrating to say the least, but I made a decision not to involve women in that chrarade unless they wanted to be involved ...

I like guys like myself: attractive, masculine, professional, in shape, discreet, etc ... and unfortunately many guys I meet are unaccesable or unattainable cause they live in the sr8t setting and only want "part-time" fun ...

It drives me nuts when I meet someone and they later tell me "oh yeah, I got a girl" ... It's tough for brothers living an honest life who are looking for real truth and committment to find most of the guys inhabiting their social circles are living double lives ...

It's crazy but last year alone I met 4 guys who were in relationships with women ... It boggles my mind how they continue to do it ... It would make me an absolutely schizoid ... sometimes I don't get so uptight about being alone cause I think of all the clueless women and pain that these brothas are feeling inside ... THIS IS NOT FUN FOR ANYONE INVOLVED

Kola Boof
April 19 2004, 1:50PM

Carl,

Your post is absolutely terrifying and numbing for a straight whore like me.

But what about all the STRAIGHT MEN in the black community who are fed on a diet of "Hip Hop Machismo" MUSIC VIDEOS 24/7 that basically say...."you're not a man unless you're doing 10 girls a week". Straight PLAYAS are Big Whores!!!

I truly believe that promiscuity is rampant in the black community. I truly believe that if we Deduct the GAY men/Gay Sex ratio...we still have a problem of men sticking their dong any and everywhere and then misleading the "girlfriend" or "wife" and transmitting all these germ cultures.

I don't believe in the DL. I'm a straight woman and I really don't.

I think this is a scapegoat issue being created to put a Scarlett Letter on black gay men...because 1) Black church doesn't want to welcome a new gay liberation in the Black Community that has been on the rise for more than a decade.....2) White Race needs to make their White Daughters think twice about sleeping with ANY black man--so lets make them all "gay" fuck bunnies with AIDS....3)Black women need to be stigmatized FURTHER...so that their BLACK wombs (which produce black males) are not as desirable and continue to DROP in the birth rates department. The LATINO nation is growing by leaps and bounds...but this helps to promote the slowing and dirtying of the Black population.

I just don't buy this DL bullshit.

There have always been a huge amount of black men AND WOMEN who are gay (or just freaky--because our culture is one where sexual molestation is rampant, out of control and ALLOWED--which produces freaks, who can be "mistaken" for gay). True Gay People and the Imitation Freaks are now being highlighted and branded GAY to serve many prejudice purposes.

Anyway, I have to go grocery shopping now.

Kola

Imdaman
April 19 2004, 5:26PM

LETS PUSH IT TO 200!

Question: What is your city's crudding haven of DL Slutdom?

Los Angeles--Centinela Park

David
April 19 2004, 5:50PM

D from UK,

I disagree with you because you make one eggregious assumption. Precisely, you assume that Black and Gay are mutually exclusive identities. While I understand that there are truly bisexual people, I must say that if reject the "GAY" identity solely because being gay is frowned at in your black community, then you may have more problems than you think you do. I must also remind you the label bisexual is not equivalent to omnisexual, so watch your vocab. Bis